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FUTURE_OF_GM

It's about time!!!!!

29 posts in this topic

FUTURE_OF_GM    26

TOO BAD GM AND FORD WON'T DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS TO TELL THE TRUTH

OF COURSE,THE MEDIA WOULD JUST SHOOT IT DOWN IF THEY DID.

WASHINGTON, May 12 (Reuters) - A battle for the hearts and wallets of consumers escalated this week as retirees of the Big Three U.S. automakers launched a campaign to make Americans think twice about buying a foreign car ---even one made in the United States. With Asian automakers shipping about $65 billion worth of autos and auto parts to the United States last year and U.S. automakers shedding tens of thousands of jobs, ad campaigns by Toyota <7203.T> and Hyundai <005380.K> touting the number of Americans they employ have hit a raw nerve. "While foreign automakers own more than 40 percent of the market, they employ only 20 percent of the workers," Jim Doyle, president of Level Field Institute, said at a news conference on Thursday to roll out a more than $1 million ad campaign focused initially at Washington policy-makers. "The result? Each foreign auto purchase supports half the jobs (that) buying a Ford, GM or Chrysler does," Doyle said. The campaign comes as chief executives of General Motors Corp. <GM.N>, Ford Motor Co. <F.N> and DaimlerChrysler AG's<DCXGn.DE> <DCX.N> Chrysler unit are expected to meet with and foreign exchange issues. Mike Moran, a spokesman for Ford, said the Detroit automaker had made "a contribution" to Level Field, but declined to say how much. "These are retirees of U.S. companies and they approached us," Moran said. "We've just supported this grass-roots effort that these people have undertaken." Doyle, who worked at the Commerce Department under former President Bill Clinton, said the group welcomed jobs created by foreign automakers in the United States, but wanted to set therecord straight on which cars were the most American. "Deciding what is made in America is getting really complicated," he said. "But if you really want to know, it's very simple: look at the jobs." To help prospective buyers do that, Level Field has created "scorecards" showing the Big Three still employ far more Americans than Toyota, Honda and Hyundai. Doyle, the son of two Detroit autoworkers, insisted his group was not created to bash foreign automakers. But U.S. car companies have long been frustrated about the difficulty of selling cars in Japan and other Asian markets. Last year, U.S. imports of cars, trucks and auto parts outstripped exports by about $138 billion. The automotive trade deficit totaled more than $50 billion with Japan and nearly $11 billion with South Korea. Although a recent Treasury Department report noted Japan had not intervened in currency markets since March 2004, U.S. automakers complain the threat of government intervention artificially depresses the yen, keeping down the price of Japanese cars in the U.S. market. The United States and South Korea are set to begin talks in June on a proposed free-trade agreement. U.S. automakers accuse Seoul of breaking previous promises to open its market and want more proof of its good intentions before Washington gives it preferential access to the U.S. auto market.

***Good 'ole U.S.A. not only are we in Japan's pocket, but now we're apparently about to let Korea have their way too (Hence probably why you're starting to see those companies held in such high regard by the media.... OVER DETROIT--- They get to nail the coffin shut apparently)***

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FUTURE_OF_GM    26

You know....

If the field was leveled and JAPAN INC *STILL* ate Detroit's lunch, then I wouldn't complain.

But, this is just an example of how the deck is stacked... Not only do the Big 3 have to be burdened by pensions, and put up with a government that doesn't care, and deal with a media that WISHES for their demise daily, and listen to ANALYSTS that couldn't predict their next bowel movement, AND get shuned by a jaded public, and battle the Japanese government AND be FORCED OUT OF one of the LARGEST markets in the world. (No wonder Toyota and Honda are so much more healthy----WE would be to if one of the top 4 markets was OURS completely for the taking)

But then, they (The big 3) have to put up with BACKSTABBING Asian business practices.... Japan INC LIE to the consumer and make him/her feel that they care about our economy and livlihood and then TWIST the KNIFE in Detroit's BACK as much as possible by RELENTLESSLY TARGETING what few niches the big 3 have left, hinting at the media about issues such as hybrids, :bs: subjective measures and other THEIR LOOS/OUR GAIN issues (And the media, like pitbulls, are too dumb to know anything but "attack" and gladly oblige) and importing BILLIONS into this country each year, while taking the profits back home.

It's nothing but a death sentence that Detroit has been fighting back from (and losing) for years.

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sciguy_0504    0

LOL. I wonder how many people would be happy if "Asia Inc." pulled its factories out of North America. Sure, people like FOG would applaud the move but the ones with the jobs and the towns with the plants would not.

It's funny that there is no mention of the increasing production of parts and cars by U.S. automakers in other countries. Essentially, they are just like "Asia Inc."

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Chris_Doane    29

It's about time!!!!!, DIDN'T SEE THIS IN THE MEDIA!!!!!!!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Heeeere we go again.

Do you even check things out before you make claims that something wasn't carried in the media?

2 Things:

First, when you say something wasn't covered in the media, but you quote a wire service (Reuters, AP, Bloomberg) story, that means it in fact very likely was all over the media.

Second, Google and Yahoo are very easy to use to see if a story was carried in the media:

Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...230304/0/NEWS09

Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi...ll=chi-news-col

Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6051201524.html

CNN:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/12/news/companies/buy_american/

Detroit News:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...120414/1148/BIZ

USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-0...-ads-usat_x.htm

TCC:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...175.A10420.html

ABC News:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1956799

If the field was leveled and JAPAN INC *STILL* ate Detroit's lunch, then I wouldn't complain.

Yes. You would. Edited by CD/BP

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Hudson    16

If the field was leveled and JAPAN INC *STILL* ate Detroit's lunch, then I wouldn't complain.

So you'll just believe whatever the Big3 say?

Sure the Big3 employ more people...they're required to by the unions. The Big3 have to have all of these extra (and they are extra) people making their cars so the Big3 have made lemonade. "We employ more people to make our cars than they do." Automakers are not benovolent organizations...if they could shed the extra workers, they would do so in a minute. You'd see the pink slips fly by so fast it would make your head spin.

But they can't. If these extra workers were let go, they'd find employment elsewhere.

If you don't look at the big picture, you'll miss it.

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loki    289

What is "the media" anyway? Just because GM doesn't have 50%+ anymore isn't any one media outlet's fault.

i bet F_O_G means, TV, print, and radio. it's far to easy to skip something (or not know about it) on the web.

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finlandia    0

It still stuns me that American automakers don't understand the real reasons why they can't sell cars in Japan and Korea. Yes, the trade barriers are ridiculous, but dropping them wouldn't solve anything. The reason they don't sell cars in those countries is because they don't make cars that work there. A big, heavy, thirsty car is Not a Good Idea in Japan, where small cars/trucks dominate, gas is far more expensive, roads are incredibly narrow, and parking is virtually an Olympic sport in urban areas. Japan has Kei cars (truly tiny things, like Honda's Beat). Small cars like the Cube, Tiida, Fit, and Vitz (Yaris here) dominate. Efficient packaging and attention to detail (not the same thing as build quality in my book) are things that American automakers didn't care about with respect to small cars until recently. Remember the RHD debacle. If it's tough to get people to look at American cars here, how about in Honda's backyard? We have/had loyalties to the Corvette and the Taurus. They have loyalties to the Skyline and the Corolla.

As for Korea, it has its admittedly scary nationalism. Breaking through that could take decades. Hyundai/Kia own 70% of the market as it is.

I think an American brand's best bet for cracking those markets is not the bread and butter mass market, but rather with luxury brands like Cadillac. A luxury buyer isn't concerned about the price of fuel, has garaged parking spaces, and so forth. Just have to bring the whole product range up to par with the competition first. The CTS is a good start.

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CARBIZ    1

Okay, but then why doesn't Fiat, or VW or Citroen, or any OTHER world manufacturer of small, fuel efficient, fun to drive cars sell anything in Japan?

Japan is a closed market, plain and simple. Just ask Toys R Us with the trials and tribulations they had trying to crack the Japanese market.

Japan Inc is real, not conspiracy theory or a figment of someone's imagination. They railroaded the American television market out of business in the '60s and we are still so STUPID that we on this board (supposedly of higher intelligence and worldliness) sit back and defend what Toyota and Honda are getting away with?

Wouldn't it be nice if Ford and GM could attack the world market with absolutely not competition at home? And who knows what under the table BULL&#036;h&#33; that MITI is pulling with Toyota, etc. that they did for Toshiba, Hitachi and pals 40 years ago?

Just ask Houdaille International, from Texas, how they were treated by MITI when they tried to figure out why their patents and trade agreements were being thwarted.

And, yeah - Toyota hires 900 in Woodstock while GM and Ford lay off 3,400 in Oakville and Oshawa.

Great math, Hudson.

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We'll never win by the rules we're adhering to now...

to beat NIPPON Inc. GM has to make a great American

car again... instead of a good Japoanese imitation. The

Japanese got to where they are by carving out thier

own niche and then hitting their demographic

consistantly with products that people want to buy for

whatever reason.

The sauccess of the 300C/Charger/Magnum and the

Ford Mustang just proves that GM will succeed if they

just build a bunch of GREAT cars. Radical styling, very

wild ad campaiogns like in the 1960s and a return to

what American cars shoud be: RWD & V8 powered.

Sure we have to crank out a few FWD Malibus &

Cobalts but that's not where their core market will lie.

Pontoac going to all RWD is a first great step to the

return to dominance.

Build great AMERICAN cars and the sales will come...

GM might still not have the media on their side but it

will not matter at that point. You can write in C&D and

MT that the new Mustang & Charger sux but that will

not mean anyone will listen.

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ChevyNovs99    0

What is "the media" anyway? Just because GM doesn't have 50%+ anymore isn't any one media outlet's fault.

The media is a group of Zionists that spew whatever they want the American public to hear, sort of like how Saddam Hussein told Al Jazeera to spew to the Iraqi people whatever he wanted them to hear.

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FAPTurbo    1,080

We'll never win by the rules we're adhering to now...

to beat NIPPON Inc. GM has to make a great American

car again... instead of a good Japoanese imitation. The

Japanese got to where they are by carving out thier

own niche and then hitting their demographic

consistantly with products that people want to buy for

whatever reason.

The sauccess of the 300C/Charger/Magnum and the

Ford Mustang just proves that GM will succeed if they

just build a bunch of GREAT cars. Radical styling, very

wild ad campaiogns like in the 1960s and a return to

what American cars shoud be: RWD & V8 powered.

Sure we have to crank out a few FWD Malibus &

Cobalts but that's not where their core market will lie.

Pontoac going to all RWD is a first great step to the

return to dominance.

Build great AMERICAN cars and the sales will come...

GM might still not have the media on their side but it

will not matter at that point. You can write in C&D and

MT that the new Mustang & Charger sux but that will

not mean anyone will listen.

:thumbsup:

I always enjoy reading F.O.G's articles, but this one seems over the top, even by F.O.G. article standards. :blink:

American companies have to regain the personality they lost years back. People are willing to buy a car that stands out from the Frigidaires in the parking lot, (Chrysler 300). American companies should retake America before focusing on the land of the rising sun... (I dunno what Korea is called... the land of the Instant Kimchi Bowl?)

Yes protectionism sucks I know. I know a few people who work in the Canadian Softwood Industry :angry:

... And Japan is paying for its protectionism in other ways mind you. That nation is slowly dying because the population is getiing old and there's such a low birthrate. If they allowed immigration, they'd be better off...

The media is a group of Zionists that spew whatever they want the American public to hear, sort of like how Saddam Hussein told Al Jazeera to spew to the Iraqi people whatever he wanted them to hear.

:huh::blink::duh::nono::stupid: ... Ok... Mr. Fox News...

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Angry Dad    0

LOL.  I wonder how many people would be happy if "Asia Inc." pulled its factories out of North America.  Sure, people like FOG would applaud the move but the ones with the jobs and the towns with the plants would not.

It's funny that there is no mention of the increasing production of parts and cars by U.S. automakers in other countries.  Essentially, they are just like "Asia Inc."

You want to see me impressed?

Let's see Toyota, Nissan and the rest build plants here without getting huge tax breaks that they never built to begin with.

Let's face it there is something wrong when Nissan or Toyota cannot build a truck plant here on their own while GM is across the state without those breaks selling something really want.

Nissan has gotten it's ass kicked in the truck market and with the current Avalon turning into a lemon and the Camry following it's time for these pirates to run to Washinington for another bailout.

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CARBIZ    1

Sciguy's argument is total BS for two very good reasons:

A) study after study, no matter who is doing them, has PROVEN that Ford and GM employ3-4Xs more employees at all levels than any of Japan Inc. Sure, a few parts jobs may be in Korea or whatever, but the high paying, value-added jobs like the engineers and chemists are all in Nort America. And while I would agree that many of these jobs are over-paid and bloated, at least those over-paid, bloated workers are here in North America, buying homes, RVs and furniture from other North Americans.

b) Where does Toyota's record profits go? OH, that's right: JAPAN. So the investors, shareholders in Japan can benefit. Good for them.

Sciguy, good to have you in the Japan Inc. cheering section. There are a lot of my acquaintances who hate America and would rather buy Japanese than buy a Ford or GM. They think Americans are too haughty and arrogant; that Detroit deserves to die.

For my part, I look at the long lineage and heritage of American cars and, in particular, how Henry Ford, Walter Chrysler and others built this entire continent.

If, suddenly, a maker of lawnmowers decides to come along and destroy that industry, all the while hiding behind tariffs, subsidies and manipulated currency prices, then I guess we should all be happy about that.

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evok    0

Sciguy's argument is total BS for two very good reasons:

  A) study after study, no matter who is doing them, has PROVEN that Ford and GM employ3-4Xs more employees at all levels than any of Japan Inc.  Sure, a few parts jobs may be in Korea or whatever, but the high paying, value-added jobs like the engineers and chemists are all in Nort America.  And while I would agree that many of these jobs are over-paid and bloated, at least those over-paid, bloated workers are here in North America, buying homes, RVs and furniture from other North Americans.

  b)  Where does Toyota's record profits go?  OH, that's right:  JAPAN.  So the investors, shareholders in Japan can benefit.  Good for them.

  Sciguy, good to have you in the Japan Inc. cheering section.  There are a lot of my acquaintances who hate America and would rather buy Japanese than buy a Ford or GM.  They think Americans are too haughty and arrogant; that Detroit deserves to die.

  For my part, I look at the long lineage and heritage of American cars and, in particular, how Henry Ford, Walter Chrysler and others built this entire continent.

  If, suddenly, a maker of lawnmowers decides to come along and destroy that industry, all the while hiding behind tariffs, subsidies and manipulated currency prices, then I guess we should all be happy about that.

And when I did the math last, when GM eliminates the 30K jobs, the number of vehicles/worker will be very similar to Toyotas in the US.

Also those studies are not accurate and do not take into account workers that support both transplant and US brand vehhicles.

i.e. suppliers that are working on transplant and US brand programs.

or what about Japanese suppliers that have set up shop in the US such as Yazaki, Denso or Takata that US manufactuers use for their programs.

Everything is so intertwined there is no clear distinction anymore.

Looking at GMs number, GM employs more people outside the US than in.

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sciguy_0504    0

You want to see me impressed?

Let's see Toyota, Nissan and the rest build plants here without getting huge tax breaks that they never built to begin with.

Let's face it there is something wrong when Nissan or Toyota cannot build a truck plant here on their own while GM is across the state without those breaks selling something really want.

Nissan has gotten it's ass kicked in the truck market and with the current Avalon turning into a lemon and the Camry following it's time for these pirates to run to Washinington for another bailout.

I am positive that if GM and Ford wanted to open a brand new plant somewhere in this country states, counties and towns would be offering them the same damn tax breaks. I do not advocate any tax breaks for businesses but once one place offers them everyone else will, too. Those tax breaks are also needed because Toyota and Nissan could turn around and build them outside the U.S., too. And no, I am not talking about walking back to Japan.

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evok    0

I am positive that if GM and Ford wanted to open a brand new plant somewhere in this country states, counties and towns would be offering them the same damn tax breaks.  I do not advocate any tax breaks for businesses but once one place offers them everyone else will, too.  Those tax breaks are also needed because Toyota and Nissan could turn around and build them outside the U.S., too.  And no, I am not talking about walking back to Japan.

You are not positive but a 100% correct.

People forgot about all the money MI gave for all the recent GM reinvestment in the state.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/comsite5/bin/pdi...591571#abstract

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Satty    338

All I know... I buy what I like. I don't care who makes it and who it supports.

Dammit BV, you're only supposed to exercise free will if it pleases a handful of nut jobs on the internet.

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toyoguy    0

lets see what the NHTSA has to say

Posted Image

Ford Says It's Patriotic to Buy

A Mustang, but Sienna Is Made

In Indiana With More U.S. Parts

By JATHON SAPSFORD and NORIHIKO SHIROUZU

May 11, 2006; Page B1

Few sports cars have captured the nation's imagination like the sleek Ford Mustang, a 21st-century reincarnation of an American classic. The Toyota Sienna minivan, by contrast, speaks to the utilitarian aesthetics of Japan: refined interiors, arm rests and lots and lots of cup holders.

Yet, by a crucial measure, the Sienna is far more American than the Mustang. Statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that were publicized in "Auto Industry Update: 2006," a presentation by Farmington Hills, Mich., research company CSM Worldwide, show only 65% of the content of a Ford Mustang comes from the U.S. or Canada. Ford Motor Co. buys the rest of the Mustang's parts abroad. By contrast, the Sienna, sold by Japan's Toyota Motor Corp., is assembled in Indiana with 90% local components.

There's more than a little irony in this, considering Ford has launched a campaign to regain its footing with an appeal to patriotism (catchphrase: "Red, White & Bold"). "Americans really do want to buy American brands," asserted Ford Executive Vice President Mark Fields in a recent speech. "We will compete vigorously to be America's car company."

As the Mustang shows, though, it's no longer easy to define what is American. For 20 years now, the dynamic car makers of Asia -- led by Toyota, Nissan Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. -- have been pouring money into North America, investing in plants, suppliers and dealerships as well as design, testing and research centers. Their factories used to be derided as "transplants," foreign-owned plants just knocking together imported parts. Today, the Asian car makers are a fully functioning industry, big and powerful enough to challenge Detroit's claim to the heart of U.S. car manufacturing.

The result is a brewing public-relations war, with both sides wrapping themselves in the Stars and Stripes. Toyota, for example has been running commercials touting its contribution to the areas of the U.S. economy where it has built factories.

Next year, the staid Toyota Camry will undergo the ultimate rite of passage by entering the most prestigious circuits of the National Association of Stock Car Racing. Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe said his company's vast network of dealerships saw the Nascar link as a crucial marketing tactic to raise Toyota's profile in the U.S. heartland. "Our dealers told us it was really important to do this," he says.

On Thursday, the Level Field Institute, a grass-roots organization founded by U.S. Big Three retirees, is scheduled to hold a news conference in Washington. Among the points the group is expected to make is its belief that comparing relative North American component content is an ineffective way to determine who is "more American" among auto makers. A better way, says Jim Doyle who heads Level Field, is to look at the number of jobs -- from research and development to manufacturing to retailing -- each auto maker creates per car sold in the U.S.

Mr. Doyle says the institute's study shows that Toyota in 2005 employed roughly three times more U.S. workers, on a basis of per car sold in the U.S., than Hyundai Motor Co. Each of the Big Three manufacturers in the same year employed roughly three times as many U.S. workers, on a per-car-sold basis, as Toyota. "What's better for the American economy?" Mr. Doyle asks. A GM car "built in Mexico with 147,000 jobs back here in America or a Honda built in Alabama with 4,000 or 5,000 jobs in America?"

Measuring local content is extremely difficult because a part made in America can be assembled from smaller parts, some of which might come from abroad. All of which underscores how the line between what is and isn't American, at least in the auto industry, is "going to be increasingly difficult to pinpoint" as car makers become increasingly international and produce more in local markets, says Michael Robinet, a vice president at CSM Worldwide.

General Motors Corp. is importing Korean-made cars to sell under the Chevy nameplate. Japanese car makers are using American designers for cars being sold in China. Some of the high end luxury BMW "imports" on the road are made in South Carolina. "We don't look at it as an American industry," says Mr. Robinet. "It really is a global industry."

That said, the Japanese manufacturing presence in the U.S. is growing. Foreign-based auto makers in the U.S., led by the Japanese, account for 1.7% of U.S. manufacturing jobs, according to a report by the Center for Automotive Research, Ann Arbor, Mich. After $28 billion in cumulative North America investment -- and annual purchases of parts reaching $45 billion or more in recent years -- 67% of the Japanese-brand cars now sold in North America are made in North America, according to the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.

Japanese investment in U.S. production was a response to the trade tensions of the 1990s, when tensions flared over Japan's surplus with the U.S., of which autos and auto parts were a large portion. By spreading investment across the U.S., Japan's car makers have won crucial allies among U.S. politicians. Last year, when President Bush took to the road to tout his Social Security plan, one of his first stops was a major Nissan plant in Canton, Miss., a conservative corner of the country where the phrase "buy American" no longer means what it once did.

"As the son of a union member, I'll admit that free trade is an issue with which I've struggled," says Republican Sen. Trent Lott of Mississippi, who has a Nissan Titan pickup truck in his garage. But he adds: "Remember that every Nissan built in Canton also was engineered by Americans, for Americans."

What isn't clear is how Mustang fans like Fred Barkley, president of the Bluegrass Mustang Club of Lexington, Ky., would react to the news that the Mustang is only 65% American, at least by one government measure. Mr. Barkley, owner of three Mustangs, one from 1965 and two from the early 1990s, says it "doesn't bother me too much." Told the Toyota Sienna has higher North American content than the Mustang, he is unimpressed. "I wouldn't buy a Sienna," he says. "I don't like them because they are foreign."

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sciguy_0504    0

All I know... I buy what I like. I don't care who makes it and who it supports.

Damn straight.

Chevynovs99, Fox News stands for Fox News Channel, a much better CNN.

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