Industry News: Electrify America Adding NACS Connectors

[David]

Today June 29th, 2023 the North America largest independent charging station company, Electrify America (EA) has announced their commitment to a broad charging solution for Electric Vehicles today by adding NACS connectors to their stations.

EA will continue to provide CCS-1 connectors throughout their network of charging stations and will add the Tesla NACS connector option to all existing and future charging stations by 2025.

Robert Barrosa, president and CEO of Electrify America stated the following:

“Since our founding, we have focused on building an inclusive and open hyper-fast charging network to facilitate the adoption of electric vehicles. We look forward to continuing to support industry-wide standards that increase vehicle interoperability and streamline public charging.”

EA has also joined the newly created (ChargeX) National Charging Experience Consortium where they will focus on strengthening the national charging infrastructure and improving EV ownership experience.

EA has stated that as e-mobility accelerates, EA will continue to deliver what the customer needs. The addition of the NACS connector continues this commitment. EA network has 850 charging stations and growing across North America. The 4,000 individual charges as of today in the U.S. and Canada are either 150 kW or 350 kW and will continue to be improved.

EA has committed to spending $2 billion dollars in upgrades and new charging stations in 2023.

Part of this expansion is the partnership with TravelCenters of America.

EA is just the latest in the growing group of auto and charging companies to support the Tesla NACS connector.

You can find more information on the other companies here:

NACS the North American New Charging Standard? - Automotive Industry - Cheers & Gears (cheersandgears.com)

View full article

[smk4565]

Tesla dominance continues.

[David]

54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla dominance continues.

Not sure I would call this Tesla Dominance as much as common sense to folks that felt the CCS connector was poorly designed compared to the NACS.

Proof of how people want small easy to use connectors is proven by this image alone.

[David]

Volvo had earlier last week announced they would move to the NACS for the North American Market.

Now we have Polestar also confirming today via press release that they will also go with NACS by the start of 2025.

Polestar will adopt North American Charging Standard to enable access to Tesla Supercharger network in USA and Canada - Polestar Global Media Newsroom

Seems Volkswagen has confirmed they are in talks with Tesla to use the NACS for North America market. They have in the first 3 months of 2023 sold 16,000 EVs so far.

VW in discussions with Tesla over adopting NACS standard - Autoblog

[David]

Volvo Press release covering their move to NACS by the start of 2025.

Electric Volvo car drivers will get access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers across the United States, Canada and Mexico as Volvo Cars adopts North American Charging Standard - Volvo Cars Global Media Newsroom

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

Not sure I would call this Tesla Dominance as much as common sense to folks that felt the CCS connector was poorly designed compared to the NACS.

Proof of how people want small easy to use connectors is proven by this image alone.

Kind of like Tesla EV's compared to others.   Much better design at Tesla.  They can all switch the charger, but they can't switch their cars.

[David]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Kind of like Tesla EV's compared to others.   Much better design at Tesla.  They can all switch the charger, but they can't switch their cars.

Tesla is much like Mercedes, sold on a badge to Lemmings that can only look at the badge and ignore all the quality issues of the product on top of the worst style design ever. Both companies FAIL at style and interior room/design sucks big time.

[smk4565]

17 minutes ago, David said:

Tesla is much like Mercedes, sold on a badge to Lemmings that can only look at the badge and ignore all the quality issues of the product on top of the worst style design ever. Both companies FAIL at style and interior room/design sucks big time.

I think the Tesla exterior style looks pretty good, their cars still look modern even after being around several years.    It isn't lemmings buying them either, Tesla's beat the competition in range, performance, charging, charge network, autonomous tech, and price.  That's why their EV's sell and the others don't.  

[David]

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I think the Tesla exterior style looks pretty good, their cars still look modern even after being around several years.    It isn't lemmings buying them either, Tesla's beat the competition in range, performance, charging, charge network, autonomous tech, and price.  That's why their EV's sell and the others don't.  

Nope, as one that is a computer engineer, the largest market for Tesla is tech workers and they are also the biggest group of lazy individuals around the world. They do not want maintenance on an auto, they do not want to go to a gas station, they want to just plug in at home and use it as an appliance. They want minimal thinking and that is why Apple is also so popular especially in the tech sector. Those that do not have to code, think about scripting solutions, etc. which can be done successfully on a Mac, but want more decisions made for them use a Mac. They do not want to have to think about how they store, access and use tech, they just want it anywhere and everywhere in the cloud and Apple does one of the best jobs at that just like Tesla is the current Leader for EVs.

Yes I know I have bitched about Apple in the past and still hate Apple products, that is my own personal issues with what I feel is a Terrible interface of a product, much like Tesla using a center massive touchpad only, too cheap to have a screen in front of the driver.

Personal Opinion.

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, David said:

Nope, as one that is a computer engineer, the largest market for Tesla is tech workers and they are also the biggest group of lazy individuals around the world. They do not want maintenance on an auto, they do not want to go to a gas station, they want to just plug in at home and use it as an appliance. They want minimal thinking and that is why Apple is also so popular especially in the tech sector.

SO if GM was selling EVs to mostly tech people, would you still call all of them lemmings who just want the ease an EV provides? 

NOBODY wants maintenance on an auto. This isn't specific to tech people. 

13 hours ago, David said:

Yes I know I have bitched about Apple in the past and still hate Apple products, that is my own personal issues with what I feel is a Terrible interface of a product, much like Tesla using a center massive touchpad only, too cheap to have a screen in front of the driver.

I do find it funny that we complain about how expensive EVs are compared to their ICE counterparts and yet when a company does something to make them more affordable, they're then criticized for it. 

[Robert Hall]

13 hours ago, David said:

Nope, as one that is a computer engineer, the largest market for Tesla is tech workers and they are also the biggest group of lazy individuals around the world.  

I wouldn't say lazy, just efficient...as a tech person, I don't have any interest w/ fooling around with bull$h!..just want products that work well and require minimal maintenance.... that's why I like Apple products,  for example, none of the constant update nonsense w/ MS trash.  Apple products just work and work well.  

I have no interest in EVs at this point, but I can see the low maintenance/charge at home angle as being attractive.   But with gas stations everywhere and very quick to fill up compared to finding a charging station, I don't see any advantage to having an EV for my use case.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

It isn’t just about no maintenance.  The Model Y is the #1 selling vehicle in the world.  The Mach-e, iD4, Ioniq 5 are not and aren’t even close.   This is quickly becoming Apple vs Nokia, Blackberry, Ericsson, Motorola, etc.  

[ccap41]

4 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Apple products just work and work well.  

100% and why, at this point, I have zero reason to ever consider a non-Apple phone. My iPhones have all lasted between 4-6 years. 

[Robert Hall]

21 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

100% and why, at this point, I have zero reason to ever consider a non-Apple phone. My iPhones have all lasted between 4-6 years. 

My last one I got 3 years out of (iPhone SE (2020))...it got harder to charge and the battery life got worse over time. We'll see how long my new iPhone 14 Pro lasts..I'll be happy w/ 3 years..

[ccap41]

8 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

My last one I got 3 years out of (iPhone SE (2020))...it got harder to charge and the battery life got worse over time. We'll see how long my new iPhone 14 Pro lasts..I'll be happy w/ 3 years..

The one I had for 6 years, I replaced the battery for $100 and it was like new again. I would definitely recommend doing that when your battery finally craps out. It's much more financially justifiable to spend $100 on a battery versus ~$1000 on a phone. 

I'm on year 2 of a 13 Pro and it's telling me it has 87% battery capacity. Not bad, not great. If I keep it for hour years, I may replace the battery next year if it gets bad. 

[David]

7 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

  Apple products just work and work well.  

I will agree to disagree as I have seen many problems with apple products especially in the enterprise space.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

100% and why, at this point, I have zero reason to ever consider a non-Apple phone. My iPhones have all lasted between 4-6 years. 

Never had a problem with my Samsung Notes and now Galaxy Ultra phones. I always get 6 to 8 years and never have had the battery problems that my kids seem to have after 2 to 3 years with their iPhones.

I get it, you guys like the interface and for how you work, Apple products work.

For me, the interface is terrible and makes no sense, not intuitive. Yet I also understand my kids and others like you guys that enjoy their interface.

That is why we have options. I enjoy Linux far more than windows lately especially Windows 11 which seems to have mimicked Apple, interface really sucks now.

In regards to the topic at hand, I have found some very interesting reads on the NACS/CCS debate.

Tesla NACS to Replace CCS? | LinkedIn

Part 1

CCS vs NACS - Tesla's sneaky adoption of a standard, just to kill it | LinkedIn

Part 2

NACS vs CCS part II: Europe won't move | LinkedIn

I find both very interesting and enlightening.

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, David said:

Never had a problem with my Samsung Notes and now Galaxy Ultra phones. I always get 6 to 8 years and never have had the battery problems that my kids seem to have after 2 to 3 years with their iPhones.

I get it, you guys like the interface and for how you work, Apple products work.

For me, the interface is terrible and makes no sense, not intuitive. Yet I also understand my kids and others like you guys that enjoy their interface.

That is why we have options. I enjoy Linux far more than windows lately especially Windows 11 which seems to have mimicked Apple, interface really sucks now.

That's what my reaction was for because the iPhones I have had for years at a time, never gave me battery issues. My current 12 Pro Max is just about 3 years old with no problems whatsoever but then again, I am not a kid playing games and such for 16 hours a day, which is why your kids phone batteries tank after a few years. Here's the thing, I have a tech background too David and those battery issues for your kids would exist whether they were using iOS or Android for the same reasons mentioned above. I am going to skip the condescending nature of your post regarding Apple users and their lack of wanting to deal with maintenance or just being otherwise lazy BS. Newsflash. NO ONE WANTS TO DEAL WITH MAINTENANCE, whether it's a phone or a car. This is coming from someone with 30+ years on the Mac platform, 30 years on Windows, a few years on Linux, 13 years of iOS, and 2 years of Android (as I stare at my "newer" 4 year iMac and 18 year old Mac Pro G5 tower that still works as good as the day it came out in 2005). What the hell do I know though. 

 

And I'm done, for a while.

18 hours ago, ccap41 said:

100% and why, at this point, I have zero reason to ever consider a non-Apple phone. My iPhones have all lasted between 4-6 years. 

Same but I guess everyone has "that" about $h! batteries on iPhones while I constantly sold batteries to Android users for their barely 1-2 year phones. Use what you want to use but don't condescend over it and belittle users but calling them lazy for about the dumbest damn reasons imaginable (obviously, that part was directed at you lol). 

[David]

53 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That's what my reaction was for because the iPhones I have had for years at a time, never gave me battery issues. My current 12 Pro Max is just about 3 years old with no problems whatsoever but then again, I am not a kid playing games and such for 16 hours a day, which is why your kids phone batteries tank after a few years. Here's the thing, I have a tech background too David and those battery issues for your kids would exist whether they were using iOS or Android for the same reasons mentioned above. I am going to skip the condescending nature of your post regarding Apple users and their lack of wanting to deal with maintenance or just being otherwise lazy BS. Newsflash. NO ONE WANTS TO DEAL WITH MAINTENANCE, whether it's a phone or a car. This is coming from someone with 30+ years on the Mac platform, 30 years on Windows, a few years on Linux, 13 years of iOS, and 2 years of Android (as I stare at my "newer" 4 year iMac and 18 year old Mac Pro G5 tower that still works as good as the day it came out in 2005). What the hell do I know though. 

 

And I'm done, for a while.

Same but I guess everyone has "that" about $h! batteries on iPhones while I constantly sold batteries to Android users for their barely 1-2 year phones. Use what you want to use but don't condescend over it and belittle users but calling them lazy for about the dumbest damn reasons imaginable (obviously, that part was directed at you lol). 

At least I got you my friend to post. Nice to have you respond. 

I am going to say that you, @Robert Hall @ccap41 are right and I was wrong to say laziness. It is the way one likes to work.

For me having my whole career in the enterprise storage industry starting with Digital Computer Corporation that at DEC, I realized there were two ways people liked to work.

One, they just wanted a product to work and use it and not have to understand what goes on under the hood to have it work all the time. Sadly, to me, I always was one to want to understand how it worked and why. This allowed me to quickly fix things when something stopped working. Apple products work, but when something stops working, there seems to be a bigger challenge by those that use the products to get it all working again. Be it windows or Linux, I find either product easier to me to fix in getting it to work where Apple with their own standards seem to take a very different way and as such, even with standards in this industry they tend to buck it and make it harder to fix when something breaks.

My 40yr old daughter and 36 year old son, I am not sure they play much games on their phones, but battery issues they have always had. Course they did get new phones last year being the latest from Apple and I have not heard them say anything about the battery. Yes, due to my discount I get on the plan I have they are both still on my cell phone plan which is a global unlimited plan.

Happy 4th guys, off to go water the garden.

[surreal1272]

20 hours ago, David said:

Apple products work, but when something stops working, there seems to be a bigger challenge by those that use the products to get it all working again.

And yet again, your bias is showing hard since I ALSO took the time to learn what I was using AND how to fix things when they go wrong and my Apple stuff is no exception. Your attempt to (yet again) lump in a particular group, in this case Apple users, through an obvious biased lens still reeks of condescension, which seems to be why you "laughed" at my last post in the first place. Point being, you clearly don't know as much as about certain users as you think and you seem to know even less about the work that can or cannot be done on their products but again,  what does a 30+ year user (and fixer) of them know.

[David]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And yet again, your bias is showing hard since I ALSO took the time to learn what I was using AND how to fix things when they go wrong and my Apple stuff is no exception. Your attempt to (yet again) lump in a particular group, in this case Apple users, through an obvious biased lens still reeks of condescension, which seems to be why you "laughed" at my last post in the first place. Point being, you clearly don't know as much as about certain users as you think and you seem to know even less about the work that can or cannot be done on their products but again,  what does a 30+ year user (and fixer) of them know.

Maybe my friend you need to take yourself out of the computer person you are and look at the larger group of people using apple products. I find many folks that want it to work but do not like tech and as such, they use it till it breaks, then replaces it when it usually is for those of use a bit more techy a fix that can be simple for some, much harder for others.

I have seen this in the Android world too, bulk of the users are not Computer tech folks with troubleshooting skills on figuring out how something has stopped working. 

A perfect example of this is a mongolian family that is our friends and they had us over for dinner. The whole family uses apple products and some things no longer worked on they just stopped using it with the reason it must be broken, so their saving up to buy a new phone or in this case it was their laptop. I cleaned house on the laptop, AKA, cleaned out the browser history, got ride of conflicting connection they had made, cleaned out storage to free up space on stuff they did not need. End result I was able to get their laptop working just fine and back online for them.

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, David said:

Maybe my friend you need to take yourself out of the computer person you are and look at the larger group of people using apple products. I find many folks that want it to work but do not like tech and as such, they use it till it breaks, then replaces it when it usually is for those of use a bit more techy a fix that can be simple for some, much harder for others.

That can be said for literally every group of tech buyers out there, whether it’s Apple, Google, Microsoft, or any number of tech buyers out there. To assume it’s just Apple users that are like that is woefully ignorant on your part. I’ve done onsite tech work and shop work for Apple products and Windows and guess what? They are the same type of folks which is why they had me look at their stuff. 
 

Just asinine assumptions made by you David. Sorry but you put it on full display here. 
 

And I’m not speaking as just a computer person. I’m speaking as a person with years of experience with people who use all types of tech. Don’t try an conflate things here. What I am saying is common sense and you know it. Maybe it’s you that need to take yourself out of the computer talk if you don’t understand that. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:23 AM, David said:

Apple products work, but when something stops working, there seems to be a bigger challenge by those that use the products to get it all working again.

The thing is, they VERY rarely have those issues necessitating a fix. 

You may be able to diagnose and fix issues on your Samsung but that's because there was an issue necessitating a fix. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:49 PM, smk4565 said:

Kind of like Tesla EV's compared to others.   Much better design at Tesla.  They can all switch the charger, but they can't switch their cars.

The charger and the motor, and certain batteries are the only things that Tesla has an advantage on. Their visual design sucks (peaked at early Model S) and their interior design can only be considered "design" by the most technical use of the word.  Stark, stale, austere, plain, and unremarkable, are all words I'd use to describe Tesla aesthetics.  Are they still using Dodge Dart window switches? I haven't checked lately.

[Drew Dowdell]

I am a computer person.  Apple has been far more reliable for me than Android.  Both OSes suck, but the build quality of Apple products has been, on average, better than the Androids I've had. The best Androids were the Nexus and Pixel line.  Samsungs are garbage.

[David]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I am a computer person.  Apple has been far more reliable for me than Android.  Both OSes suck, but the build quality of Apple products has been, on average, better than the Androids I've had. The best Androids were the Nexus and Pixel line.  Samsungs are garbage.

The one time I tried Nexus, it sucked for me as did the Pixel and I ended up using the Verizon trade in program after a few days and went back to my Samsung that has never let me down. Yes, I admit that maybe the lower end phones suck, but never had my Note 6, Note 9 or Galaxy 22 Ultra fail me.

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The charger and the motor, and certain batteries are the only things that Tesla has an advantage on. Their visual design sucks (peaked at early Model S) and their interior design can only be considered "design" by the most technical use of the word.  Stark, stale, austere, plain, and unremarkable, are all words I'd use to describe Tesla aesthetics.  Are they still using Dodge Dart window switches? I haven't checked lately.

And yet Q2 2023 was another sales record for Tesla.  Ioniq 5 is flat for the year, Mach-E was down 36% YTD through May, EV6 was reported to be down 43% in June, it has been down all year.  These guys don't have a chance.  They can't get any volume, and they can't make any profit.  

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

And yet Q2 2023 was another sales record for Tesla.  Ioniq 5 is flat for the year, Mach-E was down 36% YTD through May, EV6 was reported to be down 43% in June, it has been down all year.  These guys don't have a chance.  They can't get any volume, and they can't make any profit.  

That means nothing regarding attractive designs. The EV6 is too expensive for its size and bodystyle. I like it, but I wouldn’t pay what Kia is asking for it. 
 

but that doesn’t make Teslas less stark

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That means nothing regarding attractive designs. The EV6 is too expensive for its size and bodystyle. I like it, but I wouldn’t pay what Kia is asking for it. 
 

but that doesn’t make Teslas less stark

But the Tesla is the car people want, so they must not hate the styling or interior.  The EV6 is smaller than a Sportage and costs double.  Shocker that it doesn't sell.

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And yet Q2 2023 was another sales record for Tesla.  Ioniq 5 is flat for the year, Mach-E was down 36% YTD through May, EV6 was reported to be down 43% in June, it has been down all year.  These guys don't have a chance.  They can't get any volume, and they can't make any profit.  

Yet you continue to ignore the move to U.S. manufacturing to gain the full 7500 rebate. Just accept that Tesla time will change by next year as more options come on the market and Korean manufacturing gets going to build EVs here.

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But the Tesla is the car people want, so they must not hate the styling or interior.  The EV6 is smaller than a Sportage and costs double.  Shocker that it doesn't sell.

Yet the bulk of those sales are in Lemming China and Europe, not the U.S. and yes style and interior does make a difference. The last two quarters will show a more truthful picture as U.S. manufacturing gets going of EVs by the Koreans and GM.

[smk4565]

44 minutes ago, David said:

Yet you continue to ignore the move to U.S. manufacturing to gain the full 7500 rebate. Just accept that Tesla time will change by next year as more options come on the market and Korean manufacturing gets going to build EVs here.

Yet the bulk of those sales are in Lemming China and Europe, not the U.S. and yes style and interior does make a difference. The last two quarters will show a more truthful picture as U.S. manufacturing gets going of EVs by the Koreans and GM.

Last year when Tesla did not have the tax rebate and Hyundai/Kia did, Tesla still outsold them and everyone else.  

Also the Model Y outsells the Rav4 in the USA, and the Rav4 is way cheaper, has the Toyota brand name, strong resale, low ownership cost, etc.  The Rav4 was the crossover gold standard that Ford, GM, Hyundai, Kia were never even close to outselling, Tesla came in and blew it way with ease. 

And the Tesla "Model 2" is going to sell 4-5 million units annually.  That 1 model alone could outsell the whole Ford Motor Company. 

GM and Ford are trying, but I think they are going too slow.  At least they are doing something though, most of the Japanese brands and Stellantis are asleep at the switch, Toyota hoping they can tap the cash reserve and play catch up, but time is running out on that.

And the problem for legacy OEM isn't just scale, it is profitability,  Tesla margins are nearly double Mercedes-Benz margins (best in class for legacy OEM).  So how does Hyundai or Ford or GM, make a $40,000 EV with better margins than an Escalade or Navigator?   They can't is the answer.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 7/3/2023 at 10:17 PM, smk4565 said:

Last year when Tesla did not have the tax rebate and Hyundai/Kia did, Tesla still outsold them and everyone else.  

Also the Model Y outsells the Rav4 in the USA, and the Rav4 is way cheaper, has the Toyota brand name, strong resale, low ownership cost, etc.  The Rav4 was the crossover gold standard that Ford, GM, Hyundai, Kia were never even close to outselling, Tesla came in and blew it way with ease. 

And the Tesla "Model 2" is going to sell 4-5 million units annually.  That 1 model alone could outsell the whole Ford Motor Company. 

GM and Ford are trying, but I think they are going too slow.  At least they are doing something though, most of the Japanese brands and Stellantis are asleep at the switch, Toyota hoping they can tap the cash reserve and play catch up, but time is running out on that.

And the problem for legacy OEM isn't just scale, it is profitability,  Tesla margins are nearly double Mercedes-Benz margins (best in class for legacy OEM).  So how does Hyundai or Ford or GM, make a $40,000 EV with better margins than an Escalade or Navigator?   They can't is the answer.

Man.... you gotta stop smoking the Musk Vaporware....

[David]

@smk4565 Take a step back from the Musk Pipe and realize that they have major problems. Basic engineering is a problem for them and the Cybertruck. Do not expect any quantity but a few till 2024 and even then it will be triple digits as Musk has stated he will start at the top end of production order quality. These are $150,000 trucks and I doubt we will ever see anything below $50,000 from them any time soon if ever.

Leaked Tesla documents shed new light on why the Cybertruck is taking so long - The Verge

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

@smk4565 Take a step back from the Musk Pipe and realize that they have major problems. Basic engineering is a problem for them and the Cybertruck. Do not expect any quantity but a few till 2024 and even then it will be triple digits as Musk has stated he will start at the top end of production order quality. These are $150,000 trucks and I doubt we will ever see anything below $50,000 from them any time soon if ever.

Leaked Tesla documents shed new light on why the Cybertruck is taking so long - The Verge

I don't see problems, I see sales going to the moon!

After 2 quarters this year they are where they were after 3 quarters last year.   And Q2 last year the Shanghai plant was in a covid shut down, if you toss that out, it is 14 consecutive quarters of growth.  

The demand for EV's is growing faster than I think many OEM's predicted.   Tesla will pass by VW and Toyota in 2028-2029, those sales come at the expense of someone.  So the question is who all Tesla's volume comes at the expense of.

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Man.... you gotta stop smoking the Musk Vaporware....

I don't own their stock, nor do I really intend to buy a Tesla.  But the facts are the facts, the growth is unstoppable, the margins are 4 times better than what most car companies are at.  And the legacy OEM's don't make money on EVS and none of them have scale on EV's outside of BYD.  Which presents another problem for Ford, VW and GM who are getting clobbered in China because BYD and Tesla are on the rise.

[David]

39 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't see problems, I see sales going to the moon!

After 2 quarters this year they are where they were after 3 quarters last year.   And Q2 last year the Shanghai plant was in a covid shut down, if you toss that out, it is 14 consecutive quarters of growth.  

The demand for EV's is growing faster than I think many OEM's predicted.   Tesla will pass by VW and Toyota in 2028-2029, those sales come at the expense of someone.  So the question is who all Tesla's volume comes at the expense of.

I don't own their stock, nor do I really intend to buy a Tesla.  But the facts are the facts, the growth is unstoppable, the margins are 4 times better than what most car companies are at.  And the legacy OEM's don't make money on EVS and none of them have scale on EV's outside of BYD.  Which presents another problem for Ford, VW and GM who are getting clobbered in China because BYD and Tesla are on the rise.

The global economy is not as sound as you seem to think and while they have had sales by cutting prices, I admit that many, myself included, are surprised by the global sales. 

With that said, GM roles out multiple EVs this year and has the ability to ramp up production. Yes sales will come from some companies, but while Tesla will stay solid, I do not see them ramping to the moon in sales as much as you do.

Here is one of many stories that foreshadow the upcoming depression.

Electric vehicle production set to surge in 2023 despite low sales | Reuters

Then we have news stories like this that also put water on how hot you think the EV market is.

EV sales slowing in 2023. Why are more Americans unlikely to buy one? (usatoday.com)

Need to look at the large picture of everyone selling. Numbers are interesting.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/news/cox-automotive-forecast-june-2023-u-s-auto-sales-forecast/

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

The global economy is not as sound as you seem to think and while they have had sales by cutting prices, I admit that many, myself included, are surprised by the global sales. 

With that said, GM roles out multiple EVs this year and has the ability to ramp up production. Yes sales will come from some companies, but while Tesla will stay solid, I do not see them ramping to the moon in sales as much as you do.

Here is one of many stories that foreshadow the upcoming depression.

Electric vehicle production set to surge in 2023 despite low sales | Reuters

Then we have news stories like this that also put water on how hot you think the EV market is.

EV sales slowing in 2023. Why are more Americans unlikely to buy one? (usatoday.com)

Need to look at the large picture of everyone selling. Numbers are interesting.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/news/cox-automotive-forecast-june-2023-u-s-auto-sales-forecast/

But GM's EV ramp up isn't as fast as what Tesla will ramp up in 2024-2027.  Although GM is going faster with more product than some others.  It is the ones like Subaru, Nissan, Mazda that I think are going to be screwed, and probably Honda since they just want to rebadge GM EV's which could lead to a supply problem for them.  

And the Cox article highlights how sales are coming back, probably will see a 15.4 million sales year this year, and if there is any interest rate cut next year, I don't see why it couldn't be back to 16-17 million in 2024.  

And Tesla's big advantage will be the $25-30,000 car.  They will be able to turn profit on a sub $30,000 EV which it seems no one else can make profit on a $40,000 EV.   So Tesla can really monopolize that sub $40,000 price point, which is a huge part of the market.

[David]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But GM's EV ramp up isn't as fast as what Tesla will ramp up in 2024-2027.  Although GM is going faster with more product than some others.  It is the ones like Subaru, Nissan, Mazda that I think are going to be screwed, and probably Honda since they just want to rebadge GM EV's which could lead to a supply problem for them.  

And the Cox article highlights how sales are coming back, probably will see a 15.4 million sales year this year, and if there is any interest rate cut next year, I don't see why it couldn't be back to 16-17 million in 2024.  

And Tesla's big advantage will be the $25-30,000 car.  They will be able to turn profit on a sub $30,000 EV which it seems no one else can make profit on a $40,000 EV.   So Tesla can really monopolize that sub $40,000 price point, which is a huge part of the market.

What PROOF do you have that GM ramp up is not as fast as Tesla? GM has more battery capacity coming online this year in the U.S. and will exceed Tesla Battery production here by the end of the year. GM as well as Ford already know how to build more autos faster than Tesla. Proof is in the Trucks where each company has a truck coming off the assembly line in seconds. Tesla cannot do that yet.

Cox article is historical and while sales have surprised the industry analysts, all it takes is the recession that the investment community sees coming by the end of the year to kill off those sales.

Tesla DOES NOT have any $25-$30,000 EV. GM does and it goes on sales this summer. Also you have no proof that GM which says they can make a profit on the Equinox and Blazer EV that they are not making any profit.

Tesla showed their Cybertruck in 2019 with promise to have it out in production in 2021. Now we are in 2023 and they are having so many engineering problems with the Cybertruck that they will not really have it out other than a few special production units this year. 2024 is now the more common time frame to have that truck out, 5 years after showing it off and at 6 figure prices first.

GM as does Ford and Rivian has their trucks out and are working to ramp as battery production comes online.

All of what you stated above is MUSK KOOLAID drinking and no actual facts. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And Tesla's big advantage will be the $25-30,000 car.

Tesla is, at a bare minimum, 2-3 years off for this. They haven't shown anything or made an official announcement and we all know how long it takes them to get anything from announcement to customers' hands. 

I think it's also safe to say that 25k will never happen. If they hit 30k on the nose, that would be a big win but I don't think they will ever sell a 25k car. If they do, it'll be for a couple months, just like the 35k Model 3. They did it to say they could and then immediately axed the trim/model. If I remember correctly, the 35k Model 3 only sold for 5 months. 

But, GM does have an EV in that price range already. I don't like it, but the Bolt and Bolt EUV are under 30k and are on sale now. 

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, David said:

What PROOF do you have that GM ramp up is not as fast as Tesla? GM has more battery capacity coming online this year in the U.S. and will exceed Tesla Battery production here by the end of the year. GM as well as Ford already know how to build more autos faster than Tesla. Proof is in the Trucks where each company has a truck coming off the assembly line in seconds. Tesla cannot do that yet.

Cox article is historical and while sales have surprised the industry analysts, all it takes is the recession that the investment community sees coming by the end of the year to kill off those sales.

Tesla DOES NOT have any $25-$30,000 EV. GM does and it goes on sales this summer. Also you have no proof that GM which says they can make a profit on the Equinox and Blazer EV that they are not making any profit.

Tesla showed their Cybertruck in 2019 with promise to have it out in production in 2021. Now we are in 2023 and they are having so many engineering problems with the Cybertruck that they will not really have it out other than a few special production units this year. 2024 is now the more common time frame to have that truck out, 5 years after showing it off and at 6 figure prices first.

GM as does Ford and Rivian has their trucks out and are working to ramp as battery production comes online.

All of what you stated above is MUSK KOOLAID drinking and no actual facts. 

Mary Barra herself has said they can't make profit on EV's under $40k until maybe 2030.  And they are targeting like 400k EV's next year or in 2024 whatever it is.  Tesla will be at 8 million EV by 2030 easily, that will be more than GM's combined ICE and EV sales.

And GM might get the EV's right and be a player, they aren't the ones that risk extinction like some of the other brands.

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Tesla is, at a bare minimum, 2-3 years off for this. They haven't shown anything or made an official announcement and we all know how long it takes them to get anything from announcement to customers' hands. 

I think it's also safe to say that 25k will never happen. If they hit 30k on the nose, that would be a big win but I don't think they will ever sell a 25k car. If they do, it'll be for a couple months, just like the 35k Model 3. They did it to say they could and then immediately axed the trim/model. If I remember correctly, the 35k Model 3 only sold for 5 months. 

But, GM does have an EV in that price range already. I don't like it, but the Bolt and Bolt EUV are under 30k and are on sale now. 

But the Bolt is getting discontinued a the end of the year. 

The $25-30k Tesla depends on the Mexico factory, which Tesla will say will opening 2024, but let's say it is 2025.  So once that is open the low cost car comes out. And they said it is 40% less cost to procure than a Model 3/Y.

[David]

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mary Barra herself has said they can't make profit on EV's under $40k until maybe 2030.  And they are targeting like 400k EV's next year or in 2024 whatever it is.  Tesla will be at 8 million EV by 2030 easily, that will be more than GM's combined ICE and EV sales.

And GM might get the EV's right and be a player, they aren't the ones that risk extinction like some of the other brands.

But the Bolt is getting discontinued a the end of the year. 

The $25-30k Tesla depends on the Mexico factory, which Tesla will say will opening 2024, but let's say it is 2025.  So once that is open the low cost car comes out. And they said it is 40% less cost to procure than a Model 3/Y.

Way to be a horse with blinders, she said that in relation to the Bolt, a second generation EV. She also said that there is no reason to not have a replacement for the Bolt and other executives have stated that the Bolt will move to Ultium where they do expect to make profits on their EVs.

In regards to making 400,000 EVs a year, lets be clear, Mary stated that they would push this to early 2024 due to startup/ramping delays at their new battery production facility.

GM Pushing Back 400,000-Unit EV Production Target To 2024 (gmauthority.com)

Quote: Barra says that the 400,000-unit EV production target has been pushed back six months to early 2024. According to Reuters, the slower EV production ramp-up was attributed to a “slightly slower launch” of battery and cell production.

In regards to the $25-$30K Tesla, try 2026 to 2027 at the earliest. There are no announced official model, prototypes, etc. On top of this, the news is now reporting at the earliest, Mexico will open in early 2025.

Tesla's Gigafactory Mexico opening pushed to early 2025: Report - Drive Tesla (driveteslacanada.ca)

Yet as the news is also stating, due to higher labor costs, poorer than expected existing infrastructure and a lack of proper locally sourced supply chain, that they have not even broke ground on the Mexico site yet.

This will tend to be a 2026 mass production site I believe at the earliest.

In that time frame, many companies will have their EV production up and running in the U.S., especially GM.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But the Bolt is getting discontinued a the end of the year. 

And replaced with the Equinox EV supposedly starting at 30k. 

 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The $25-30k Tesla depends on the Mexico factory, which Tesla will say will opening 2024, but let's say it is 2025.  So once that is open the low cost car comes out. And they said it is 40% less cost to procure than a Model 3/Y.

There's still next to no chance there is a 25k Tesla. Have you not watched what they've done with pricing of everything they've ever sold? Their Model 3 that they said EVERYWHERE was only 35k, was only sold for 5 months before they got rid of that model. Yeah, they may make a few but it'll be in model year 2 and only for a couple months just to say they did it. Don't you understand that? Not anybody will be able to get a 25k Tesla, the same way I can't go buy a 35k Model 3. The cheapest Model 3 is 40k, before federal tax credit.

[smk4565]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:25 AM, ccap41 said:

And replaced with the Equinox EV supposedly starting at 30k. 

 

There's still next to no chance there is a 25k Tesla. Have you not watched what they've done with pricing of everything they've ever sold? Their Model 3 that they said EVERYWHERE was only 35k, was only sold for 5 months before they got rid of that model. Yeah, they may make a few but it'll be in model year 2 and only for a couple months just to say they did it. Don't you understand that? Not anybody will be able to get a 25k Tesla, the same way I can't go buy a 35k Model 3. The cheapest Model 3 is 40k, before federal tax credit.

$35,000 in 2018 dollars is $42,000 today, so the Model 3 price has gone up less than inflation from that original promised amount, and the original was like 210 miles range, they are near 300 now.  

But we are talking about a whole new model so the Model 3 has nothing to do it it.  And Tesla hasn't said a price or when the next car is available, but they did state a goal to sell 4-5 Million of them per year.  So the price has to be low to hit 5 million units per year. 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:50 PM, smk4565 said:

Tesla will be at 8 million EV by 2030 easily

No... just no.  Put down the vape.

Tesla does not have the manufacturing capacity globally to produce 8 million vehicles.   Today, they can do about a million and a quarter per year, and Fremont is still using tents to build cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

Put it another way, Toyota has more spare capacity than Tesla has total capacity.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No... just no.  Put down the vape.

Tesla does not have the manufacturing capacity globally to produce 8 million vehicles.   Today, they can do about a million and a quarter per year, and Fremont is still using tents to build cars.

They were at a 1.92 million run rate in Q2 of this year.  If they don't pass 2 million in Q3, they will in Q4 for sure, as there is still expansion happening at Berlin and Austin.  Probably they get to 2.5 million next year with those factories.  

Mexico plant opens 2025 (or 2026 if they are late) and that has a 2 million capacity.

The France or Spain plant whoever wins the 2nd European factory would be 2026 or 2027, that is another 2 million.  There will be either a 2nd China factory or maybe India, and rumor is another American factory or Canada.  

Musk wants to build 10-12 more gigafactories, let's say they build just 5 that do 1.5 million units per year (and not the 2 million unit goal), that is 7.5 million units on top of the 2.5 million they can get out of what they have now, so 10 million units a year come 2030.

Tesla has goals of 20 million cars in 2030, I think that is nuts, maybe in 2040, but 10 million in 2030 is very doable, will probably only take 8 million to hit #1 as VW and Toyota are losing market share to Tesla and the Chinese.

 

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Put it another way, Toyota has more spare capacity than Tesla has total capacity.

Which should be terrifying to Toyota, because Auto factories running at anything less than say 75-80% capacity start to lose money.  And once Tesla takes 30% of Toyota's volume, and Toyota isn't selling 10 million cars like they did in 2019 or 8 million cars like they did in 2022, and drop down to say 5 million cars in 2030, Toyota probably has to close half their factories and shutter half their models, just to survive.  

[David]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

They were at a 1.92 million run rate in Q2 of this year.  If they don't pass 2 million in Q3, they will in Q4 for sure, as there is still expansion happening at Berlin and Austin.  Probably they get to 2.5 million next year with those factories.  

Mexico plant opens 2025 (or 2026 if they are late) and that has a 2 million capacity.

The France or Spain plant whoever wins the 2nd European factory would be 2026 or 2027, that is another 2 million.  There will be either a 2nd China factory or maybe India, and rumor is another American factory or Canada.  

Musk wants to build 10-12 more gigafactories, let's say they build just 5 that do 1.5 million units per year (and not the 2 million unit goal), that is 7.5 million units on top of the 2.5 million they can get out of what they have now, so 10 million units a year come 2030.

Tesla has goals of 20 million cars in 2030, I think that is nuts, maybe in 2040, but 10 million in 2030 is very doable, will probably only take 8 million to hit #1 as VW and Toyota are losing market share to Tesla and the Chinese.

 

Evidence has already been supplied by me that NO CONSTRUCTION has started yet in Mexico, it is now at the earliest 2026. This on top of the fact that global economist are now looking to 2024 to be a recession year.

This is 'the end of the beginning' of the battle against inflation, economist says (msn.com)

Things are slowing down and with the new Tesla 3 supposed to be shown later this year, people will hold off on buying the current version to wait for the new version just as a recession hits. China is slowing down, Europe is the only place where between 2 to 3% growth is happening but is expected to level off. Tesla is not going to dodge the recession and still grow, they will have to slow down justl like everyone else.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

Evidence has already been supplied by me that NO CONSTRUCTION has started yet in Mexico, it is now at the earliest 2026. This on top of the fact that global economist are now looking to 2024 to be a recession year.

This is 'the end of the beginning' of the battle against inflation, economist says (msn.com)

Things are slowing down and with the new Tesla 3 supposed to be shown later this year, people will hold off on buying the current version to wait for the new version just as a recession hits. China is slowing down, Europe is the only place where between 2 to 3% growth is happening but is expected to level off. Tesla is not going to dodge the recession and still grow, they will have to slow down justl like everyone else.

Recession is bad news for the other guys with their dealers throwing mark ups on cars, not going to be a problem for Tesla who can keep lowering prices and the Mexico built model with the tax credit could be $22,500, which if money gets tight, people will flock to a cheap car that doesn't need gas or maintenance.  

[David]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Recession is bad news for the other guys with their dealers throwing mark ups on cars, not going to be a problem for Tesla who can keep lowering prices and the Mexico built model with the tax credit could be $22,500, which if money gets tight, people will flock to a cheap car that doesn't need gas or maintenance.  

Yet you still like a horse with blinders ignore the fact that they will not be open producing 3 to 5 million autos by next year or the next few years after that.

Your whole point of them making millions and millions of autos in the next few years is VAPORWARE!