Leaderboard

And sedans are just sedans... Talk about a non-sequitor.

When it comes to Mercedes Benz, I actively wonder why they insist on selling the C-class AND the CLA-class to begin with. Too many badge snobs wanting a subsidized lease I guess. Yes, the original Escalade was little more than a badge job from a same-year Tahoe. . . . . . in 1999. In the last 15 years, Escalade has exceeded anything the Yukon Denali provides in amenities galore by comparison. At least Cadillac has learned to NOT cheapen its brand anymore (unlike the pitiful Cimarron era!) and offer real luxury options for customers. The MB CLA is little more than a 21st century version of a Cimarron. That is awful.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a32005732/lingenfelter-720-hp-chevrolet-colorado-zr2/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBAW&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0AgDuXt3UZgewHPhYXi3JHimne-yqM471f2HmQRQKP5lht59hthAx28DY

That Ford executive wants Cash for Clunkers because he sees an opportunity for Ford to get more money from the government. That is the real issue. I do not believe that we need a Cash for Clunkers program this time. As for back to basics automobiles, maybe that will happen but I doubt it. Not only are current new vehicles too expensive, but used vehicles can be bought at semi-reasonable prices. Unless the fight is over a brand new $10K Chevy Trax, I suspect that automakers will make do with a market that only sells 8-12 million new cars a year for the next several years.

Yeah...you find it hilarious that a pickup truck is a luxury vehicle. I find it hilarious that a taxi cab in Greece is a luxury vehicle States side...

Genesis certainly wins the value for the dollar award on all of its models. The problem is this: Where are the sales? I think the the G80 is a really nice luxury car. But Genesis needs MORE crossovers right now. The GV80 is not enough. Remember when Cadillac only had the Escalade and the SRX/XT5? Forty percent of Cadillac sales went to the XT5 as recently as two years ago. The release of the XT4 AND the XT6 were required to plug in the enormous gaps in Cadillac's lineup. Now Genesis has the same issues. They need a GV90 and especially a GV70 right now, not in 24-36 months. Every other luxury marque has at least two if not three crossovers, which are the sales leaders right now and have been so for the past five years. Can you imagine Audi sales without the Q3 and the Q5? Or BMW sales without the X3 and the X5? Or Mercedes Benz without the GL- class? Their sales numbers would be trending down just like Infiniti! In an era where the flagship of almost any car make is a crossover and NOT a large sedan, the G80 is a solution in search of some customers.

I believe unemployment reached 25%. but I'll bet the real number was higher (pride). Some of these steam tractors were 6 or 7 grand in 1930 :

Much of that depends. ( I am a history buff ? ) If this drags out too long, it might make the Great Depression look good. Much of this remains to be seen. I do agree with much you have said. I think from the ashes good will come- how quick will depend on the damage.....

Crazy Cool that a Blown LT4 V8 can fit in there. Not sure how many are willing to spend that amount of money on a truck like this but I will say it is a very cool build. Hopefully GM will realize they are missing a segment. Thanks for posting Blu, That is cool!

First off Mercedes-Benz has whored out the E-Class at lower prices to dump and keep assembly lines going in Germany due to the craziness of the Union contracts, so the whore out the E-Class and sell a little of everything else into rental and then at high prices sell a marketed Luxury version. Cadillac, Genesis, Acura, Infinity, etc. have all chosen to NOT whore out a specific model and go after profitable sales which has allowed Cadillac while a much lower sales volume, a very high and profitable ATP. IN KEEPING THIS FOCUSED ON GENESIS G80 I am sure if they wanted, Genesis could whore out any of their models to rental, taxi or any other place to get many versions moved. Yet as has been learned from looking at the past, selling into the fleet business reduces auto value. G80 has clear style points pulled from all over the auto industry on the outside and some will like it, others will hate it and some will go Meh, and drive it if they have too. Interior is high quality and I suspect at the price point they sell the cars, they will win over converts. I know one already as my brother in-law who drove a BMW, then a Mercedes, then back to BMW went with Genesis. When asked why, he said the quality of the interior for the price point for what he sees as an appliance for getting from point A to B and back is far better than the cost both in purchase and maintenance of the German brands and he suspects will maintain a lower cost of ownership way longer than what he paid for in the European auto's. He is a CPA with his own firm and an investing firm with Boeing as one of his clients investing millions of their workers 401K contributions. He can easily afford any auto and yet he does not see any reason to pay for higher priced auto's than that and he has said that while he would love a lower maintenance cost EV sedan, he also in his mind cannot justify now their cost. He figures in 2 to 3 years enough should be out that he can then reduce ownership costs further by going EV but for now, the Genesis is the best value for the dollar in the luxury auto segment. Genesis wins.

Bad idea, waste of taxpayer money that can go to more important things. Also if did it, they would require the new car to be an EV (which are mostly too expensive, especially for people that have economic hardship) or it would have to be on a car that gets 30 or 35 mpg combined or something fuel efficient and Ford quit making their cars and has nothing fuel efficient, outside of an Escape Hybrid. We don't need more corporate welfare, auto companies were making billions in profits a couple years ago, I didn't see them giving it all away to charity or to the government to pay extra taxes.

No, this is a stupid idea. Really ashamed that someone from Ford would suggest this. How about concentrating on how many more new 2020 Escapes you can sell instead of 70,000 dollar Aviators now? Likewise, GM, maybe something like the Cruze is a valuable entry in the car lineup now? Watch GM spin this into needing all sorts more money to dump into autonomous and electric black hole now. I would be for the development budgets of electric being increased if the charging grid were part of that investment but I haven't seen jack squat of that to date. And in the meantime, how about instead of cash for clunkers, get more hybrid powertrains into volume lines. Like an Equinox hybrid. Give credit for continuing hybrids in some of its product lines.

Can we go back and start at the beginning with Genesis?

Good lord people. Give it a rest already. Somehow, yet another thread about a luxury car gets hijacked by SMK semantics and comparing everything to a Benz (like anyone really gives two s***s) and now it has devolved into yet another semantics laden pissing match. The G80. Let’s discuss that. I’ll start with saying that on looks alone, the interior compares very well to the German competition.

That looks like the trim and spec of one I sat in at the auto show (seems like so long ago now). I didn't care for the dreary charcoal interior and vile CF trim. A light tan interior w/ some wood would be way more appealing to me.

Anyway, trying to get back on topic and away from all the rambling TL;DR nonsense, the new Genesis looks like a nice entry in the premium sedan market..will be interesting to see how it does if the car market comes back eventually..

I say base E Class and base GLC...but you yourself dont equate expensive price tags to luxury so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US...just like how pickup trucks ARE utilitarian in the US market. In other parts of the world thoughl ike in Russia and in Dubai...if a Russian oligarch or an oil sheik baron decide to export a Kings Ranch F150...its luxury...) (you could try to counter all you want...the sad reality is that Mercedes went down market in the US and THAT is what is causing SMK all this pain) Ford, Dodge and GM went upmarket for their trucks...meeting up at the doorstep of Mercedes' downmarket path... Dont fault Detroit for that mess... Dont make excuses for Mercedes for that mess...

Yup... And you missed the point that Mercedes vehicles that have the SAME EXACT price tags as those high fallutin' pickup trucks..dont equate to luxury vehicles either... And THAT is the point... Example That E Class...is not a luxury vehicle... Therefore... Not a luxury vehicle But wait...there is more You both have to decide what argument you want to stick to... Define what is luxury first...and then come and discuss it with me. You will find that whatever definition you choose, it does not bode well for Mercedes luxury perception vis-a-vis high priced pickup trucks and Mercedes Benz vehicles below the S Class... I repeat... Price to price interior to interior engine choice to engine choice fit and finish to fit and finish tech to tech Mercedes base GLC and base E Class are no more luxury than top trimmed pickup trucks. Or... If you want to play the hypocrite game. Mercedes base GLC and E Class are luxury...but so are the top trimmed pickup trucks. You cant have it both ways.

Non sequitor, your comparisons hold no water. Apples and oranges. That there are pickups that have similar prices to MB luxury models means nothing, there are Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc trucks that are more expensive. Or RVs. Or Corvettes. Many vehicles are in the same price bracket that aren’t competitors. I thought this was a Genesis thread. Seems to have really gone off the rails.

It does not bode well for Mercedes' luxury plans when plebeian branded, work oriented utilitarian pick-up trucks rival transaction prices and sales figures with those of Mercedes so-called luxury vehicles... Maybe because... Anything below the S Class in the Mercedes line-up is not luxury? Or... Is it that Lonhorn Laramies, King Ranches and Denalis ARE luxury? Tough pill to swallow. Which reality do you wanna follow? Any which way you cut it...its no bueno for Mercedes Benz.

Actually...same applies to Mercedes. How many low level GLAs and CLAs and crappy 4 cylinder C Classes does Mercedes roll out and favorable priced lease queen E Classes and GLCs vis a vis the higher priced ones? I bet you...Dodge and Ford and GMC and Chevy sell MORE 50 000 dollar price tagged trucks than Mercedes does in that same 50 000 dollar range. Mercedes has sold 320 000-380 000 units in the US the last 5 years. The GLC and the C Class are the top cars that sell in the US. 60 000 units per year for the C Class and 70 000 for the GLC That totals 130 000 units. About half. 45 000 E classes, 20 000 GLAs, 15 000 CLA. That is another 70 000 units 200 000 units so far. Add another 50 000 GLEs and another 15 000 S Classes and we are at 265 000. The rest comprises of 40 000 vans, 7 000 G Class SUVs, 4 000 GTs, 1 500 SLs, 1 500 SLCs and we are at the 315 000 units level https://www.daimler.com/investors/reports-news/financial-news/20200104-mbusa-sales-dec.html Numbers are good enough... 60 000 C Classes... starts at 42 000 70 000 GLCs starts at 52 000 I doubt that the GLC goes above 60 000 dollars. Lease queen. I doubt the C Class goes above 45 000 dollars. Lease queen also. That makes an avg trans price of 52 000... for 130 00 units GLE starts at 55 000 E Class starts at 54 000 avg trans price Id say 60 000 dollars. for another 100 000 cars. We bump up that avg trans price $55 000 for 230 000 units. CLA and GLA Id say avg trans prices at 45 000. It wont move the needle as that only makes up for 35 000 units. Avg trans prices for M-B in the US according to MY logic is 55 000 for a measly 260 000 - 280 000 units... https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/ That link says that M-B ATP is at 58 000-59 000 dollars. Im gonna say that my analysis is accurate because in my analysis I am not including 100 000 dollar S Class sales...even at only 15 000 units... Ford sells 900 000 F150s and its variants Dodge sells close too 700 000 Rams and its variants. Maybe more now... GM sells 600 000 Chevy Silverados and another 250 000 Sierras. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/the-average-pickup-truck-price-is-closing-in-on-50000/ In 2018...GM said that the ATP on its trucks in 2018 is closing in on 50 000 dollars... The Silverado STARTS at 29 000... GM sells 850 000 trucks... Without me doing any more math...Im dizzy.... Im going to safely say that yes...Ford, GM, Dodge sell MORE 50 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes does 50 000 dollar vehicles...as I think GM, Ford and Dodge OBLITERATES the 280 000 unit mark with expensive as phoque Longhorns, King Ranches and Silverado HD/Denalis...

Id say those days are over. Cadillac did that very same thing and it hasnt worked... Mercedes sells waaaay to many low level, low priced cars in North America that folks will not remember those high line cars that defined Mercedes Benz in the 1990s. And even then, in '90s, Mercedes also peddled waaaaay too many, low level cars in North America ... One could argue this one...but it was not very luxurious... It sold...BECAUSE it wasnt that expensive to buy. And at the start of the SUV/CUV craze...And this is when Mercedes was riding high on its so called luxury image. But not very luxurious... (look at those ugly grey plastic bumpers...) If Cadillac gets shat on for the 1st gen Escalade (nd for some hardcore GM haters for the 2nd gen) and GM gets shat on for the Hummer H1 and H2 for shoddy builds...then M-B should get shyte for that crap as well...

Bill Withers passed away a few days ago. He was 81. It was caused by other health issues and not related to the current pandemic. He had three big songs, among others, but two were sort of downers ("Lean on Me" and "Ain't No Sunshine"). That leaves this one as his best song, IMO: R.I.P. Mr. Withers

So they just call it a luxury car, and so it is. so EASY! - - - - -

OK- Not quite the same wheels. Or car. I always liked the Sunfire concepts. And those wheels are very cool.

Inspiration: Also...it kinda looks like a high on meth Ford designer was trying to green light a Taurus coupe.

Are you buzzing again? JUST because there isnt a Silverado SS 454 or Ford F-150 Lightning like there was 20 years ago...doesnt mean these machines do not have performance... A Silverado has a a 6.2 liter 420 HP and 460 horsepower V8 under the hood. Also...the Ford Raptor IS a performance machine... And you saw what I wrote? I said 20 years ago... PERFORMANCE muscle trucks EXISTED while Elon Musk was still a baby... 1978 (And yes...it was performance for the time...) And there are a slew of other noteworthy performance trucks from then until now... The Cybertruck is still not in production but Ford will gladly sell you a performance pick-up right NOW And there is another that Ford could sell you RIGHT NOW The rest of your post is just word pollution...

Pickup trucks don’t have performance and won’t until the Cybertruck arrives. Also a King Ranch or High Country truck is still a far cry from an Audi A6 in terms of interior and technology let alone the higher luxury vehicles. I mean the Kia Telluride has a better interior than a Denali pickup, can’t get Super Cruise in a Silverado or Sierra either and Audi A8 has a system more advanced than Super Cruise. Trucks are expensive (and do well on resale) but that doesn’t make them luxury.

It could be construed that luxury pickups are the new aspirational vehicle. I read somewhere that luxury cars across all brands were being traded in on Denali, High Country, King Ranch and Limited LD and HD pickups at a very noticeable clip.

mercedes / BMW weren't competitive until the 1990s. RE : I-6 "smoothness" ; big deal - that's no selling point. Especially since more & more; the dead I-6 is going to the I-4. The problem is entrenched now - once upon a time a luxury car meant all the bells & whistles, now you can get the majority of amenities on everything down to the bottom of the barrel. The range has decreased significantly. And then there's the truck segment horning DEEP into the luxury brand territory- the same amenities, some new ones, and capabilities the cars can't even approach.

Maybe, but if EVs do explode in sales and threaten the used car market, then Honda was wise in pursuing what looks like a strategic alliance. EVs, especially BEVs, need to be cheap enough so nobody will want a lightly used ICE vehicle. Otherwise it is all for naught.

Well, I know for sure it is tougher in the rust belt states. My wife’s 17 year old Cavalier had to be replaced not because the car stopped running (engine and trans had a lot of life left at 155k) but rust was making the doors fall off. It’s why it’s not uncommon to see 10 year old cars in the junkyard....

^ These are the same people who are probably demanding voice-activated power windows (but just as a stopgap until thought-activated power windows appear). - - - - - Just a 'plain Jane', cheap, Plymouth Belvedere :

Gotta say this is not surprising. Hybrid/EV drivers are all the same.

Why? Because Mercedes said the AMG is a luxury vehicle? Why is it a luxury vehicle? Price? You already established in your mind that price got NOTHING to do with it... But Ill humour you. Starts at $108 000 F150 Shelby SuperSnake Starts at $95 000 for 400 HP and $102 000 for 770 HP Performance? The Supersnake and Raptor do things that an AMG E Class wont do and vice versa...but all 3 are performance machines. You gonna pick and choose what performance criteria is luxury and what is not? Technology? What automotive tech is available in the Mercedes is also available in the F150. Fit and finish? Quality of the leather? What about towing capacity and what you could haul? Why isnt THAT a luxury? Because when discussing with biased view points...one will always find a way to dismiss another view point when it does not match their fondness and dislike for certain vehicles...

You miss a fundamental point---price tag doesn't equate to luxury. There are plenty of expensive vehicles that aren't luxury vehicles.

Sad that Cadillac has never really optimized taking their concepts to market and given much less than they could in the luxury segment. Yet still Genesis is way better, but not perfect than many out there and a side profile comparison shows that Genesis nailed it for the most part.

Honda is no dummy. They are letting GM pay the price for money losing tech no one wants. It's called risk management and it is a brilliant move by Honda, we've all heard their stance on EVs... they see no reason to invest heavily in BS. This is for Honda to be compliant with draconian regulations that are counter-customer.

Trucks are just trucks, though...no matter how fancy they are inside. That may be the dumbest thing I've read in a while...the E has lower trims and higher trims.

The AMG E-class is a performance luxury vehicle.. same idea as the CTS-v was.

Sure... You seem to do it all the time... What is a base E Class anyway? In Greece...its a taxi cab... You cant use the 100 000 dollar AMG on me...why? ALL YOUR WORDS... IN ESSENCE...YOU ARE ARGUING WITH.... YOURSELF

What the holy fuck do taxi cabs in Greece have to do with anything????? Priuses are taxi cabs in the US. Stop it with the long winded tedious drivel and focus on the subject of the thread...

It is a taxi because it is the longest lasting, most durable mid-size sedan in the world. And the diesel version gets over 40 mpg. And you seem to think that how they use it in Europe has any impact here or there. If it mattered or hurt the image of the car, then Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, etc would have been able to compete with it, none of them could. I'd be more concerned if I were Cadillac or Genesis that my top luxury cars can't get as much status as a taxi.

If it were that easy then why don't Genesis, Cadillac, Infiniti or whoever copy Mercedes and fleet sale like crazy? Mercedes has been selling E-class taxis for 40-50 years, and yet segment by segment they charge more than any Asian, Korean or American car company, and they outsell them all segment by segment. All these arguments against Mercedes, BMW or Audi with high maintenance cost, or fleet sale or whatever are meaningless. Because that has been the case for 40 years and those 3 are still the top 3. Bottom line is it comes down to product and brand image in the luxury game. What makes the Genesis brand special? Mercedes won the Formula 1 championship 6 years in a row, Audi and Porsche win Le Mans with the same frequency that people eat cheeseburgers. These guys know performance. They have legendary histories. Genesis has no grab to get people in, even if the G80 looks nice, it will probably look dated in 4 years since they mostly copy other people's past design and have an all new styling language every few years.

So you want to compare a base E-class vs a top trim pickup? How about a base Cadillac CT5 with no options to a loaded Toyota Avalon? Which is more luxurious? And if the E-class isn't a luxury car, and has a taxi stigma, how come Cadillac, Acura, Lexus and Infiniti can't challenge it, and Lincoln quit building sedans? The E-class has put the CTS, CT6, Q70, and Continental in the graveyard and the RLX and GS are next. E-class is so great a luxury vehicle it has survived when the rest have all failed, and the E-class has a higher price than all those competitors, even with discount pricing none of those brands could compete. G80 will be no different.

Alot Whether you like it or not. According to YOUR definition of luxury. High end trims of pick-up trucks are luxury... If you dont agree with that, then E Class Mercedes is NOT luxury either... Pick your pill and stop the bullshyte!