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Those issues were like, what 10-15 years ago? GM had their long running ignition problem then also...all automakers have issues, some more than others. Anyway, banter on C&G is typical of the internet, just a lot of people blathering...none of it means anything, nothing to get stressed about (aboot?). .. just stay entertained and don't take it too seriously...peace out..

He is not even close to that bad lol. At least Balth will engage in a meaningful discussion. He is right about Toyota to a point. Some of their models are just "blah" and have some issues the days that Toyotas are not normally known for (looking at the cheapness of the RAV 4 here) but there is literally not one SUV that hold a candle to the 4Runner and the LC in terms of long term reliability plus killer resale. Could they use a real update? Sure but by the same token, why fix what isn't broken? The 4Runner continues to sell well.

If the average MPG in '76 was 12.1 and the average in 2010 was 17.5... that's an increase of 45%. For people who groove on percentages, that's unquestionably a huge increase. Now... an overall average is not an apples-to-apples comparison. So what is? '76 Corvette, based on 90 fill-ups on 6 different cars, returned a combined average of 9.9 MPG (~fuelly.com). In 2021 the Corvette is rated at 19 combined, with a bump in displacement from 350 to 376 CI, and a bump in HP from 180 to 490. The Corvette is possibly the most 'pure' case study for automotive evolution, as it's general size, mission, engine & curb weight are almost identical between those 2 distant years. BTW, that 9.9 > 19 is an increase in efficiency of 92%.

Looks at the survey...sees that Chevrolet and Buick are very close to Toyoter and Lexus.... Sees Subaru...a Toyoter owned company and its at bottom... (Yeah...I see where GMC is at...) Also... The gentleman (and his inlaws) that talks a biiiig game about Toyota's reliabilty and holds GM responsible for shyttyness 30-40 years ago...and cant in his heart seem to forget about it...also seems to turn a blind eye for Toyoter's more recent shyttyness and does NOT hold Toyoter to the same level of hatred... This gentleman also likes Acura I believe...same like me....sees Honda and Acura...another Japanese legendary awesome company known for...cough cough...reliabilty...and sees that they are far worse than Chevrolet and Buick... Known fact for Honda and Acura: Its been DECADES that Honda and Acura have had engine, transmission and steering problems... DECADES... But lets continue banging on that same ole tired rant of how American car companies lag behind Japanese ones...

@surreal1272 Don't bother, @balthazar as much anti-Toyota as @ocnblu against EVs

Considering fuel prices are virtually identical to 1950 but vehicles are roughly twice as efficient, id say you're saving money. 1950 fuel price: $0.27 = $2.97 in 2020 1950 average fuel economy of 15mpg 2019 average fuel economy: 25.2mpg. Same money out of pocket, quite a bit further traveled. Fun fact, fuel economy dropped nearly year from 1950 until the lowest point in the early 70's when it's been creeping up ever since. https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-741-august-20-2012-historical-gasoline-prices-1929-2011 https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/showtext.php?t=pTB0208 https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report#:~:text=Figure ES-1.&text=Fuel economy increased by 0.2,0.4 mpg to 25.5 mpg.

This discussion about reliability is tired and old... Ive done it. Im retired from it. I dont give a shyte about it. When oil sludge problems are being ignored by folk like you, when rusted truck frames dont matter to folk like you, when accelerator pedals getting stuck just get swept under the rug and folk like you just shrug, and you keep on pointing the fingers atb GM and say well...GM is worse... I tend to not give a shyte about what folk like yourself has to say.. And I guess this kind of posting style you dont like about me...and say I make it personal.... Well...I dont give a shyte about that either...

@oldshurst442 I haven't said ONE thing about Honda, the discussion was about Toyota. Toyota has been consistently on top, you can argue as much as you want but it is a fact. 2017 - Toyota/Lexus still on top , GM/Ford much lower 2015 - Toyota/Lexus still on top GM/ Ford lower 2014

?

Here is my entry for lowest price DVD player of the holiday season, and it has HDMI input even!

Engines like the 5.3L and the tech behind them have dropped in price over the years while the Silverado they go in have not. That’s the point here. How about you stop deflecting and answer my first set questions there? Of course, maybe its you that doesn’t understand but thats not new, since you have never offered anything of value here. You know what? F him. No matter what answer to you give, no matter the facts that contradict his sorry excuses, he just sticks his fingers in his ears screaming “NO NO NO NO! EVS BAD! NO NO NO NO!” Because he’s so “cerebral”. Quite honestly, he will never understand it because I’m convinced that an EV harmed him in some way. Maybe he can show us on a doll one day.

All 1966 Oldsmobiles. I like 1966 for cars. Some beautiful machines came out from the Detroit Michigan area in 1966

Alternative Propulsion :

I had no idear Balthy was so committed!

This is all I was commenting on. Which, we have had fuel savings passed on to us.

I was listening to music to mellow out. (from Covid fatigue) I came across this. I think Ive mellowed out. I love '50s rock. This version is more...cha cha. I guess the beautiful girl dancing the cha cha in soothed my tortured soul. It has been on loop for the last 40 minutes. My lovely wife doesnt get why Im dancing to the same song over and over. Oh well. Ill make it up to her when the kids go to bed ce soir!

More horsepower...at lesser prices. What the American automobile and muscle cars are all about and what the spirit of the Chevrolet Corvette embody. Sure. But with the same token, and in essence , isnt what you just stated up above what @David is talking about when he is talking about EVs and EV batteries? I wanna know why...whether we are discussing EVs and EV batteries versus the internal combustion engine or automobile reliability versus the various automotive companies across the planet, why cant we use the SAME barometers and assess the SAME way to all? We keep our biases and ignore the flaws to what we want to like, yet we are harsh and unforgiven to what we dont like. Yes...its human nature to do that... But its also in human nature to FINALLY come to a conclusion when ALL facts are presented to an EQUAL manner. Well...humans that WANT to pursue progress that is... I mean...we cant shyt on one idea/entity for having flaws yet embrace a different idea/entity with a different but an EQUAL amount of flaws... Its a tireless game of tug of war. And if we dont ACKNOWLEDGE the flaws of what we prefer, and if we dont ACKNOWLEDGE the merits of what we dont...then its just...POINTLESS. The internal combustion engine and ALL of its infrastructure took DECADES...close to a CENTURY to be an almost perfect way of powering a horse carriage. Even the horse carriage itself took 2 bloody decades to become its own thing and become a...well...car. Here we are...we let our bias of NOT WANTING to accept a different power source for our beloved car that we cloud our minds with utter bullshyte trying to deny the eventual progress of the electric motor (which in itself has been improved IMMENSLY to what inventors did with them in the late 1700s and 1800s. Let us not forget how far we have gone with batteries in the last 5 years never you mind about how far batteries have come since the last 100 years. What I find TRULY insulting, is that the American spirit of INVENTION over the last 100 years (production lines, automobiles, airplanes, electric light bulbs, silicon valley motherboard microchips, etc has all but disappeared. The pioneering and business savvy spirit has faded away. And I am Canadian for phoques sake. Making America Great again is just but a phoquing hoax the way some of us diss what could be a very defining moment in American business endeavors with the constant put downs of Tesla and the electric car... Tesla, Rivian, Lucid. All AMERICAN. I do NOT know where Rivian and Lucid stand on EV tech, but Tesla has WORLD BEATING tech and some shytty Americans dont even realize this. Where is the T-Shirt ripping Hulk Hogan that Trump promised us? I know...he is constantly whining about how not fair it is that Canada steals milk and lumber from the US How Fakenews this and unfair that is while TESLA is the SINGLE most IMPORTANT AMERICAN being GREAT again... TESLA is a SYMBOL that the WORLD recognizes as a technology maker needed to help save a sick planet. TESLA has got the TECHNOLOGY that the WORLD envies... Yet...some Americans....are too stupid to see that...blinded by an overused version of the Red, White and Blue. The irony of what I said, is that the tired and overused symbol of America being Great again is THAT of a T-Shirt ripping Hulk Hogan... rant over. I guess Covid lockdown has got my nerves up in arms again...

It's all good my Canadian friend.

fair enough to both posts. and both points duly noted and taken into consideration with respect.

I am just going to say this. Toyota’s ownership of Subaru wasn’t made official until ten months ago so trying to connect one to the other, in terms of reliability, would be an incorrect assessment. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-officially-joins-toyota-group-what-it-means-new-outback-and-forester-models/amp

Jeep is hanging in there, pretty consistent...woo hoo! Anyway, no doubt that Toyota and Honda are pretty consistent on the short- and long- term reliability...some on here complain about Toyota and Honda probably out of xenophobia rather than any actual facts, I suspect...

Most of their models are just "blah". Nevertheless their overall reliability is way above average (and has been for years now) and much better than American brands.

One more month to go ...

Talking about Ford Model Ts and Chevrolet Corvettes regarding high priced, low volume EVs is wrong in my opinion. A Chevrolet Corvette is as far from a comparison to a Ferrari F8 Tributo as a Ford Model T is to a Cadillac of the day as a Chevrolet Bolt is to a...Chevrolet Spark. Why? Simple. A Ford Model T and a Chevrolet Corvette were (and in the case of the Corvette still is) cars (and brands) that were and are INTIALLY conceived to be mass produced with PRICE TAGS to be LOW for the MASSES as their PRIMARY OBJECTIVE. Henry Ford perfected the production line so he could get the cost/unit as low as he could so he could sell his cars as low as possible so the average consumer could buy one. Chevrolet uses a different approach for the Corvette, but the cost engineering behind the Corvette is to keep engineering and production costs on the low, so the Corvette could enjoy a relative low price. Ferrari and Cadillac and even the Chevrolet Bolt that I mentioned before do NOT have that business plan in place. Could anyone guess as to why that is? I dont think we have to discuss as to why that is. I think we all know why... The Chevrolet Bolt does have an asterisk behind to what I just mentioned. The Tesla Model 3 and Model Y fall into the same category as the Chevrolet Bolt. And I will explain that further... The CURRENT EVs that are on sale, do NOT enjoy ANY kind of business plan that reduces cost/unit to be passed on the consumer. There are NO smart/clever engineering choices (like Henry Ford's perfected production line as that clever engineering choice for the Model T as an example) that are implemented. Even at FoMoCo with the Mach E. It seems that the ONLY business plan available as of now is just to offer EVs at a high price and the early adapters pay the full brunt of EV experimental technologies and engineering and just let time go by for the prices to go down... This is where the Model 3 and Y, Ford Mach E and Chevrolet Bolt come in. And then economies of scale might kick in to save the consumer of few bucks here and there. Yes, its true, that solid state batteries will reduce the cost of batteries...but what good will that do for an EV price tag IF there are NO BUSINESS PLANS ALLOWING FOR EVs to be AFFORDABLE for EVERYONE? A MAINSTREAM BUSINESS PLAN and ENGINEERING HAS TO BE INVENTED and IMPLEMENTED like it has for a Model T, for EVs to be TRULY affordable for the average consumer... Straight out, full-on production for a Mach E for instance, will not cut it. There has to be a planned, built-in, thought of production of an affordable EV on the level of a Model T for that to happen. The Tesla Model 3 and Y dont have that. The Ford Mach E dont have that. The Chevrolet Bolt dont have that. The Rivians and Lucid Airs dont have that. The Porsche Taycans and Audi E-Trons dont have that. Mind you, the high end jobs like a Porsche or Audi or Caddy are not where we start thinking about affordable transportation for the masses. Even at Chevrolet for the time being. There is some sort of plan over at GM with the platform sharing thing... Yeah...like an ICE vehicle enjoys. VW will be doing the same thing. And THAT is where EVs WILL be coming affordable. Tesla having the Model 3 and Model Y on the same platform should also help Tesla in keeping their cars affordable. But Tesla might not be interested in that market... Tesla enjoys brand recognition as a top EV maker. People buying Teslas dish out the money. Maybe it be wise for Tesla NOT to delve into the affordable EV market...

Wow! Welcome to the Matrix, David!

toyoters in general are junk. They used to be very good, then Corporate dropped the ball. 4-runner is probably the best of them. Of course; it's 11 years old currently; last 10 years has had 1 engine, 1 transmission, 1 wheelbase. If an OEM can't get that right after a decade...

BS. I made my obvious joke while actually discussing the subject at hand, unlike yourself. You never, NOT ONCE, answered my original question (which was for you to tell us how you think you know the potential EV market better than EVERY auto company out there) which is what created the joke in the first place. Why? Because all you do is troll. Now, having said that, here's the kicker (and evidence you provide yourself). If the subject has been beaten to death then why the hell do you keep coming back to it and contribute nothing? Again, because you're trolling (or what you call "entertaining"). Pathetic considering you are the one who requested this subject matter take place here instead of Random Thoughts, all simply because you were tired of seeing it (and apparently because you have never heard of the "ignore" button"). You want others to follow the rules while you flaunt and ignore them, again, just like the outgoing president I'm sure you voted for). That is what has been "beat to death". How about holding yourself to the same standard that you ask of everyone else here? Can you actually do that? Somehow, I sincerely doubt it. Now, lets see which sentence you "cherry pick" in your reply while ignoring literally everything else that has been said. Again, not following rules you set for everyone else.

You think showing the group, on a doll for Christ's sake, where the evil EV touched me is "adding value" to the discussion? You really are delusional. The myriad issues with EV v. ICE have been beat to death, why should I repeat repeat repeat them? With a choice so clear, the discussion should be over, yet here we are, some still advocating, against all odds, FOR EV. It's mystifying. So I come in here to be entertained.

Last man out, shut off the lights.

Well there's one sold.

When the product is not available yet, it is understandable that people are not buying. America wants big trucks and SUVs. Once they are there in EV mode, you will see that more and more will buy just like me. I will be buying once I can compare and sit in a Rivian and Hummer. Both are what I want, Not a Tesla, but a full size EV.

Where’s the news flashes that IC components are getting steadily cheaper & cheaper so they will one day will be price competitive with EVs?

Leaf was $29,995 in 2019, is $31,600 in 2021 ($1605 HIGHER). Bolt was $36,620 in 2019, is $36,500 in 2021 ($120 lower). Model 3 was $35,000 in 2019, is $37,990 in 2021 ($2990 HIGHER). OEM costs are immaterial if they never get passed on to the consumer. Reducing prices is not in the OEM playbook. We're in an era where charging extra for PAINT is commonplace & SOP.

WALKING IS GOOD

2020 has seen one thing drop good and that is the price of battery packs per kWh. While the average EV saw the price drop to $137 per kWh per battery pack, EV buses which help mass transit saw the prices drop below $100 per kWh. In 2012 the industry reporting was that we would be at $200 per kWh battery packs and that was gonna be a challenge, but the industry is bringing down costs faster and now with Solid State batteries going into production, low cost EVs are making sense to bring to market with many starting from $18,000 to $25,000 which should make adoption of an EV even faster and more common. EV battery pack prices fell 13% in 2020, some are already below $100/kwh (greencarreports.com)

Surreal thinks walking's not good. Hmmm...

They live in Blythe, CA and don't have a carport? - - - - - Spotted on December 9 - my second favorite color for this car, minus spoiler, after basic white:

An oldie but a goodie!

Back on track for non political jokes. Q: What is the similarity between electric cars and a man's penis? ? ? ? ? A: They are both Touch to Start! ? ? ? Q: What is the worlds more favorite electric car still? ? ? ? ? A: Lightning McQueen ? ? ? Q: If Dodge makes an electric car, what will it be called? ? ? ? ? A: Dodge Chargeable ? ? ? Q: Why did Elon name his electric auto the "Tesla"? ? ? ? ? A: Because "Muskmobile" didn't pass the smell test! ? ? ?

FAKE NEWS. It was barely HALF a century from the 1890's to the (give or take) 1930's for the gasoline powered car to come fully into its own.

I have to question this statement. IF THIS IS TRUE, then we would still have V8 engines in every auto out there and not the few V6, Majority Turbo 4 and 3 bangers. What Americans tend to like is Big full Size auto's and that used to be some very cool cars and now is replaced by Trucks and SUVs with AWD. As such, fuel economy is not more efficient on the current engines but by a very small amount. HOW CAN I SAY THIS? Easy, look at the crazy EPA figures for Ford EcoBoost or GM turbo engines and yet when they are driven to enjoy the power and boost, the MPG is in the Toilet and that has been posted all over the internet by people owning these auto's. So I say we HAVE NOT seen ICE become more efficient in MPG. WE HAVE seen ICE become more efficient in POWER, be it HP and Torque. It still takes lots of Petro to make those numbers and if you do not drive like a little old senior, then you do not really see the MPG benefits. ICE can become far more efficient when pared with a proper HYBRID system. This has been proven with the Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid as well as many others. Exception is Honda who has had Hybrid Auto's, early models were very fuel efficient, later models all are about performance, not MPG.

Sylvania; inventor of the fluorescent tube light (and the fixtures) - first shown at the '39 World's Fair. 2nd largest radio tube manufacturer, 3rd largest light bulb manufacturer. Emporium, Pennsylvania. Now a label belonging to a Chinese consortium.

Maybe because you weren’t really promoting walking as much as dismissing EVs, yet again. You are not that cerebral. Stop pretending you are.

It never came down. It was on the market for at least half a dozen other nations. That would be a solid argument if it weren’t for two things. 1. They (4Runners) were just as solid in 2009 as they are now. 2. Again, forty years of reliability.

It took a century for the gasoline powered car to be perfected is what I said. To be almost perfect. I said it took decades for all that to be in place. And a century to be perfected. I said it took 2 bloody decades for the horseless carriage to be a car. Nothing I said is fakenews. All that I wrote is true. Nothing in the 1930s, was perfected for the gasoline powered car. No highway system. No autobahn. No gasoline stores at every corner. Automatic transmissions came in at the very end of the 1930s. 1930s gasoline powered cars were waaay better than what came before. A huuuge step forward from the previous decade and before, but still primitive. It took another 40-50 years for this to be perfected...to where we are today. Today...all the roads, the gas stations, the pumping of oil and refining and transport of the final gasoline product, the car dealership network, the marketing, the planning and execution of production of automobiles, is a reflex of everyday life. THAT is what I said. It took a CENTURY to perfect a near perfect system for the internal combustion powered car.... If you and Balthy (becausse he upvoted your mispoken and very ill informed comprehension of my post) well, nothing I could do otherwise... But here we are: A decade into a REAL engineering push for electric cars and its battery tech, as compared to even the 1890s-1930s comparison you are so proud of trying to show me up...and you still fail... 1890s-1930s is 40 years... Tesla and Toyota with Hybrid tech and its ONLY been a decade, give or take a couple of years... Even if you wanna include GMs EV1 of the mid 1990s, that would ONLY be 25 years... But hey... @ocnblu...way to teach me a thing or two.

Curious as to how you'd answer a yes or no question.

The "For Sale" sign on America's front lawn was taken down for a brief time.