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That is the problem, they have them in ads in the papers and on the web at times, when you arrive to look at the auto, they show you one with an AMV sticker on it. Yes, you have pointed out all types of various ways to wiggle out of honoring their advertisement, but that is the problem of connecting what they put on TV, Newspapers and web to what you experience on the dealer lot. I am not going to spend time cutting and pasting what I have seen, but this AMV sticker is a grey area that dealerships are abusing. At this point then Dealership Franchises do not need to exist based on your statement as the dealer should be able to buy autos from any OEM auto company and price it how they see fit. If they are a licensed franchise that is selling only what Ford or GM, etc. states they are selling at that price, they should then be honoring the MSRP and selling it that way. This grey area is what has caused hatred by so many out there and will be the death eventually of the dealerships as we move forward in the 21st century IMHO.

Which makes his point. It should be the customers choice to buy directly from the manufacturer without the dealership being involved at all, thus cutting out the unnecessary middle man who process nothing to the product involved, other than lip service. And @oldshurst442-My response here is what the free market car buying practice should actually look like, CUSTOMER CHOICE.

Well...not exactly. In advertisements, usually and mostly, dealerships will showcase the least expensive model with the least expensive monthly payments to entice you to enter their dealerships. Its usually the base model with a lease option with the most favorable (the lowest possible) amount of money per month. And again... *PHOQUING SIGH* M SUGGESTED R P does NOT mean its a SOLID price cemented in cement drawn up with blood that the OEM will FORCE upon the dealership to sell the car. Its SUGGESTED. Its a PRIVATE phoquing business.... An owner of a PRIVATE business has the RIGHT to sell its products at whatever price HE/SHE wants...and deems necessary to make...you know...MONEY. We DO live in a country that practices the free market system, do we not? Its up to the CONSUMER to decide for HIMSELF if its WORTH IT! You know, we have the PHOQUING FREEDOM to NOT buy... You could call it grand larceny if you want to. Does NOT make it so. Bait and switch is NOT what you have described. Bait and switch and a whole 'nother ball game. THIS is bait and switch: Like I said above, the ad in the newspaper is of a base model with the least expensive options and monthly payments to entice you to enter the dealership. There is fine print at the bottom of the ad, LEGAL fine print that a consumer NEEDS to read and THAT protects the dealership from ANY hurt feelings like how you express just in case there is litigation... And in that fine print explains ALL that there is to know about how the pricing will probably be if you want to buy a more elaborate model... Abusing? maybe... But YOU also do NOT know what expenses the dealerships have incurred because of this covid mess and chip shortage and shipping lane bottle necks and whatever other shyte thta has happened since covid hit. I know. I own a business. Certain things have skyrocketed and I also had to market adjust certain items on my menu. There ARE options out there to weather out the expensive sticker prices of new cars. There is no need to buy a NEW car right about now. One could exercise their right to buy a used car. Although those are crazy high too, still cheaper a option than buying a crazy market price hike. The price hike itself just about costs as much as a used car... So yeah...

Do you have a single example of an advertised price at MSRP and it's actually marked up?

How Dare she put her dirty shoe on that paint job! ?

To this I say: Oh, crap, it's not the music thread. Regardless, the '90s did have some decent music. And this is one of those songs I knew exactly where I was when I first heard it.

Speaking of Colonnades, I see that Greenlight has come out w/ a 1/64th '73 Chevelle 2dr diecast. One version out is a gray one from the movie 'Drive' (great gritty crime movie, love the soundtrack). I'll have to get one to go with my other Greenlight Colonnades ('76-77 Pontiac Le Mans 4dr sedan and wagon).

Interesting the push on Hyundai/Kia engine fires in which while like @Robert Hall found plenty of news stories about the cars catching fire, but not a one about the cares exploding or killing people from said engine fire unlike the exploding Pinto's that did cost people their lives. Then you have Tesla, yes plenty of fires, all due for the most part to battery pack trauma. But not killing people like the exploding Pinto's of Ford Motor Company. Why Tesla Cars Catch on Fire (businessinsider.com) All in all, I think many humans will choose to go to another auto company and not come back, but I doubt it will have the history of memory like a Ford Pinto Exploding did. Tesla has plenty of faults but also, I doubt that the battery pack fires from accident trauma will slow down their sales even with the recent, we shipped 1 million autos in 2021 and are recalling 500,000 autos. What I see slowing down Tesla is that once Legacy auto companies start to ship in volume BEVs, this will cause people to look twice. We see plenty of reviews where Tesla fans are getting nitpicky just to find fault with the Ford Mach-e, but even more reviews by former Tesla owners that praise how well Ford did on their first BEV. Tesla lack of paying attention to quality and then new BEVs form legacy OEMs will be a bigger ding to Tesla sales and possible survival than anything else.

The definition of 'bait & switch' is; they'd have to advertise a specific vehicle at a specific price, then once you engage with that dealer asking about that vehicle, it's "unavailable" and they push you towards another, higher-priced vehicle. That's 'bait & switch'. A dealer clearly advertising a vehicle at -say- $10K over the sticker price is NOT 'baiting & switching', that vehicle is right there, available, with the price clearly stated & they'll gladly sell it to you, so there's obviously no scenario requiring 'cracking down'. If you pay it, you agreed to it. Anyone who has a major issue with a market adjustment upward should decline all market adjustments downward, including OEM rebates and dealer money off. Otherwise, that person is denying the OEM their 'fair price' (by the same arbitrary metric). Otherwise it's 2 people doing the same thing; trying to make the best deal for themselves.

Let me point out you answered the question yourself. The OEM advertises the MSRP for the Auto, their franchises should be selling it at that price, but you show up and see the second sticker added on which is not MSRP. Bait and Switch, that is what is pissing off the consumer. BAIT AND SWITCH. If the OEM offers discounts, then why should I not accept it, that is normal for everyone. The focus is on the Bait and Switch of the Franchises adding no value with a second sticker that is higher priced.

No one would decline a discount when the OEM gives them. This is about managing your franchises. I have not seen fast food franchises add an adjusted market value price to the food that McDonalds markets at a set price. Ford, GM, etc. needs to enforce this same fair pricing of what the buyers are expecting when you see their ads. To me, the adjusted market value stickers is bait and switch that the states need to crack down on.

Was interested in seeing the details, 7.2 million engine fire recalls from 2010 to 2021. 2010-2021-Hyundai-Kia-Engine-and-Fire-Recalls-5-18-21.pdf (autosafety.org)

Hope you're doing better and happy new year. Of these, I really only like the Grand Am. I believe they may have started out with the Pontiac 400, hopefully hooked up to a THM 400. As for the one pictured, there are some weird things going on. I only liked this car in white, to highlight the Endura front end. It does not need a vinyl top. Also, the wheels on this one should give way to Pontiac rally wheels. Since, like the Malibu/Laguna, the Grand Am is a fastback (backlite) colonnade, it should have copied the less pinched rear approach used by Chevrolet. I've always had trouble with this overstyled aspect of these Pontiacs, not to mention the side sculpting that accentuated the overstyling. The dashboard wins the sweepstakes by a landslide. I have always liked the design of that dashboard and it only worked with buckets ... not a bench, nor a 60-40. Thanks for posting the photo of the Laguna. With a sloped front end, it was attractive. Of course, it had to be decked out correctly inside, unless all the good stuff came standard. I've always had issues with the triangle rear side window colonnades. The smaller opera window was one of the big sells of this type of car. However, I got a kick out of how many variants were made of the triangle window colonnades. I know that Buick even went old school with theirs, putting out the Century "Special." It can be a hoot to see one with its loss leader 231 c.i. V6, no A/C, and none of the gizmos ... the Buick nameplate on a mid-size car at an almost bargain basement price. If only the 231 been "even firing" in those cars, their drivability would have been much improved ... and the slanted '76-'77 grille made the Century coupes look even nicer.

All used vehicles and all overpriced? Terrible service? Poor product knowledge? Take your pick...

Automotive recycling :

Gotta Love Production of the Hummer EV by GMC.

You've all seen a pic of my very first car, taken this past June. October '21 marked 35 years under my ownership. Dropping the motor off to the rebuilder this weekend. There were a couple of serious prior contenders for my first car- a '59 Pontiac Catalina 4-dr flattop and a '63 Studebaker GT Hawk. I might include a '59 Eldorado Biarritz convertible, but the $1500 asking price was wildly out of my pocket's range, plus I was only 15 yrs old.

Sorry but that sounds like whataboutism to me. The fact that there are two people before the buyer, making that extra money (Manufacturer and now the dealership) sum up the problem here. Nowhere did he question the current definition of "bait and switch". His exact words were, "To me, the adjusted market value stickers is bait and switch that the states need to crack down on." The part in bold is the key part here. It's to that it is technically bait and switch but maybe it should be.

The fact that dealerships are businesses and in a free market system, there is no cap on how much money and profit could be made and it seems to me that you wanna whine for nothing. Are you denying the right for a dealership to make money? Even if its hand over fist profits, we live in a system where we do not put a cap on profit. Wouldnt be 'Merican if we did. Would be communism if we did... Also...in a free market system, NOBODY forces a consumer to buy anything either... Unless we are stuck with a monopoly but those are illegal in a free market system. Also, price fixing is also illegal so unless you and David could prove that ALL dealerships work together to price gouge its customers, you are shyte out of luck with whatever you wanna whine about. And I think, that some of those price hikes are warranted. Certain expenses that the dealerships had to deal with have skyrocketed. And unless you know what the dealerships have to go through to make it through the month, you and David cant cry about market adjusted pricing on cars. There is only one thing you and David could do. And its your God given right (if you believe in such an entity) as an American (OK...its in the Constitution rather than God giving you this right) to choose NOT to buy a new car at this moment in time. So do not buy a new car and pay no market adjusted price hike... and if all Amercians do that, maybe market adjusted price hikes cease? But if there is one willing red blooded American to pay such a thing, then guess what? Then whatever vehicle is bought at whatever market adjusted price it was bought at, then THAT is what THAT car is worth and its THAT new price that what THAT car's new market value is... Dont be pissed at the dealership, be pissed at whoever is paying these prices. Its quite simple... There is no need to crack down on anything. Free market system... Simple supply and demand. The fundamentals of capitalism.