turbo200

this post is meaningless. you don't even have a point with olds; you have no idea of the marketing and manpower costs it takes to support one brand, let alone all the brands GM supports that all have such low sales. And the low sales are not because of wagoner, he inherited the poor product programs at GM now.Why quote another friend? That's ridiculous, you think it'll convince us more or less of your ability. To me it's less, having to quote someone to prove yourself is childish. Just prove yourself. Start saying something credible, rather than trying to prove your credibility with us. I can pull a bunch of quotes out of my ass too. Start sharing and contributing things of real merit and you will gain respect.

though he often puts his foot in his mouth, i am glad GM has a man like Lutz. and I am proud of him for going out there and speaking his mind undeterred of what people have to say. it's good to hear him say wagoner will preside over turnaround. lutz gets a lot of the credit though---design matters now because of him.

it's a nice interior, i never said it wasn't. i expect the quality to be there, for the most part, like all recent gm interiors. it won't exude tightness and richness like the new camry, because for that to happen, a revelation would have to take place at gm. but i'm not discussing quality in my above post; i am going off the design. the design doesn't do much for my eyes, and doesn't even match the new camry or current accord---so how can it expect to steal customers from those machines. it's really hard to deal with the perception GM has---it's even harder when your products reinforce the idea that they are inferior products. every detail matters, and design imparts quality.

if we are to believe GM can recover we must not have a defeatist attitude. product and brand recovery stories of the past decade have shown time and again the American public is not brainwashed and is willing to consider the best product, as long as it is enticing and a valuable proposition. in LA all anyone wants to drive is bmw, mercedes, and to a lesser extent acura, cadillac, and lexus. this only happens because everyone has those cars and they look real nice, so people want them. not because of marketing or reviews in Car and Driver people buy what they want. today i saw two ladies pass an sts and REALLY NOTICE it. it was a base model, with the stock wheels that don't really complement the lines of that car, and no spoiler, it was a dull silver color. [i mentioned all these details to emphasize the reaction to this particular STS, and how much more impactful the STS could be if it was a real Cadillac like the next CTS could be, based on what we were shown on 60 minutes]. and this was encino, ca, right in the heart of wealthy LA suburbia, and they clearly said, " that's the STS," as to confirm that was the new Cadillac they were thinking it was. ALL it takes is buzz---all it takes are cars on the road that make a statement. The best advertisement is the rolling advertisement. Acceptance begat more acceptance. There are many ways to put this. The current Impala looks like $h! compared to the new Camry, especially from the rear, it looks completely unadorned, and once again outclassed, like a rental car, it will take cars with real presence and real quality looks to get people going to GM dealers again. I have outlined the plans for the various brands many times, and GM has not done what has been asked, until they do they won't see gains.

the concept for the coupe wasn't so sexy though. the current one is beautiful, from the outside, but everyone in LA has one, and I happen to think the 3-series coupe [old one] is classier and better looking.

among my favorite cars on the road are the CLS, new S-class, 3-series, old 3-series, 911, vette, CTS, mustang, and all the Land Rover/Range Rover SUVs, and I like the new GMT900s for the most part. i have no loyalties, except to GM, I'd love for them to succeed. we're all here to discuss. key to gm's recovery is toppling toyota's rising share. GM must counter that, they may not decrease toyota's share for some time, but at least to stop losing share to toyota and other japanese and euro makes. that is why it is important to discuss toyota and the competitors. oh and i didn't have my panties in a bunch, sometimes when i state my opinion i like to bring it home.

i was applauding your ability to be objective. it's a very good trait, as we've had to deal with people around here who can't be at least that.

I have seen a crapload, literally crapload, of Escalades around in the last week. They seem to be gaining real traction here, too bad I am getting tired of the rear already---it's so non-descriptive. It's unimaginative compared to the Land Rovers beautiful rear ends.

What's interesting to me is on this very board we had comments last year when the concept debuted that the interior wasn't groundbreaking or a giant leap from the competition. And a year later, when the standards get even higher as we've seen the new Camry, Altima, etc......GM decideds to release an even cheaper version of the concept's interior! They couldn't improve on it, no they had to cheapen it, why is it that we've come to accept this as normal practice from GM?! It is ridiculous. Do they ever do thier homework? Didn't they know a new Camry was coming out?? They should expect by now that Toyota will pull out all the stops in their design process. They're so f'in clueless sometimes. I really will not get over the fact that we mentioned here it wasn't that great of an interior, and instead of improving on it, they cheapened it!

when critiques are based in fact and real experience, they are always more qualified than just any critic

your opinion is counterproductive to yourself. you need to get over it and look at reality, toyota is on its way to number one, and in no small way, and methodically and precisely. their rise has been incredible and thier latest product onslaught has been nothing short of magnificent. they know how to design, and do it all at once, to establish thier dominance. they could redesign every 4 years instead of 5 and keep turning the world over with how much money they have.this is no bandwagon. check the facts. i'm not buying toyotas, but the public is. obviously most people don't think they are overrated; or do you think your opinion is better than millions of people shopping the toyota dealers? finally, no one is telling you what to like. i do not "like" camry, nor could i see myself owning one, but with the newest version, it just got a hell of a lot more appealing and wonderful to own. they have continued hitting thier market square to a T. They own the segment of midsize classy cars for gentlemen. GM has lost all of it. I am not thier market, but they understand thier market, and damn do they get it right.

exactly

Since they are the biggest competitor for GM, and thier products are frequently the standards of the segments, and their consumer base is rabidly loyal, they represent the hardest wall to climb. It is imperative this forum, and GM as a whole understands what makes Toyota customers drool. What keeps them coming back for more love. If you don't like it, buy a time machine and go back to the '60's [or better yet the '90's, all the yes-men will fit you well].

homer

yes and yes. and meaningful product development too. Lucerne could use standard 17s and optional 18s on all models. the base wheels do nothing for the design. GM, are you listening? Many modern luxury cars have switched to bigger wheels standard since aesthetically it's a good distinction from normal cars.

it's definitely substantial and more athletic than the last g. the last g has become so boring....i just can't look at it anymore, it just blends in so much and yet it tries but just fails miserably. the new one looks much much sportier and dynamic, while not straying from the original's design language. The side profile, well I just don't want to look at the old one, it's so...boring.

I also love the brown leather, just that it's a bad combination with the wood. This combo looks better, but there is just too much fake wood, and the integration of the radios/HVACs looks like a kid designed it, or someone really really cheap and stupid decided it should be that way. It looks retarded and unfinished, undeserving of the market this car is going for.

I remember reading the minivan program was cancelled, on ah-ha's site right before it went down.

did you sit in the camry? that thing is solid, rich, upscale. even the base trim feels like a luxury car. Roomy, detailed, expressive, expensive.......all of these terms come to mind when you sit in the new Camry. That interior is a haven to spend time in. Think about the number of hours the average driver in LA spends in his car. Would you rather be in the interior I just described, or the one with less comfortable seating, less rich fabric, less pleasant ambience?

design is the number one issue that separates the car companies these days. only GM has yet to catch up fully in the powertrain/interior feel areas...everyone else is at a pretty consistent level. Don't beleive me? Look at the sales charts, even Hyundai has figured out how to make a cohesively designed mid-size car. And thier big trump cards are low price and warranty that GM can't match. GM needs its own trump card, it will have to be design. Does the Aura scream hot design to you? Or is it fairly bland, or decently lovable? Think outside your enthusiast mindset and try to evaluate the design for real. If you were a dedicated import buyer, would the Aura's look be the look that sways you?

the current Brazilian Vectra is also based on the Astra platform. The Euro Astra is just a version of the old Astra with the Delta front subframe [correct me if I'm wrong]. Brazilian Vectra is really nice and comparable to the cancelled Ion in terms of design, and probably better than Delta for driving dynamics [there's a reason Opel decided not to use Delta on the new Astra].

The problem is, if the cars were designed right from the get go, GM would have 3 top sellers on its hands, in the form of Malibu, G6, and Aura. They would steal a lot of share from Honda and Toyota, which is not impossible, you just must attract the Honda and Toyota freak customers with something alluring, something that actually attracts. The other problem for GM is that they are working really hard to not compete with each other, when they should just focus on making the best possible f%^545 car!!!

unfortunately, your assessment rings all to true. in terms of exterior and interior refinement, the Aura merely meets the competitors where they were in 2002. The competition has since learned and increased the levels of sophistication, and their design is truly noteworthy and appealing. Things that were sacrificed on the production Aura for the sake of cheaper stamping or whatever have left it undistinguishable, whereas the concept had real presence thanks to a great face, and a killer body. I had high hopes for the Aura, and I still believe it will meet thier target volume [a paltry 100k units, drop of a dime in that segment], but I think it may come at the expense of different GM products rather than Honda or Toyota converts. The Saturn just lacks the outright intensity and lustiness to capture minds. The new Camry has amazing feel on the inside. The dash is very pleasingly designed, and it all has this solidarity and closeness. The seats are some of the most comfortable car seats I have ever been in, and the cloth just feels rich rich rich. The amazing fit of everything on the inside surpasses many luxury cars. The hardest part to swallow about the new Camry: the exterior has real grace and presence. The body is elegant, dynamic, and even gasp sporty. The rear is a great angle, especially in darker colors and in sport trim. The only dumbass design element is that frog headed grille. Aside from that, the Camry has finally evolved into one good looking athletic sedan. That is a tough pill to swallow.