turbo200

i can't even get in! I will once my computer is working, I'm using the library's right now!

I read the whole of it. Eloquently said and good analysis. That said, his hubris probably won't allow him to back down from his high place.

I actually enjoyed this post. I'm on this side of the fence. great discussion here. I definitely don't want to offend any of the regular posters here; but this is just my belief. I like how toesuf put it up above...this is a religious discussion, and by inferring men should be allowed to marry men in the union of marriage, you are asking me to change my beliefs--not the other way around. As for the rights issue, I'm sure reasonable arguments exist on both sides--I really don't care either way I would grant gay men/women the rights, but marriage is not a part of the rights in my mind.

that's a big problem for GM.

keep him active. be stern. be the teacher. mold him to be like you. take him fishing, camping, play ball, play hide and seek. have a ball. always alkways always give him the full credit he deserves and trust him to make good decisions while instilling in him your beliefs and morals. you'll do fine. i take things too seriously. you'll make a great, offbeat dad

eventually a UV8 will hit the lambdas, and we know now the trannies are only capable of 315 hp max. this looks more and more like the envoy, but i'm beginning to realize it's a ploy to throw us off. when do we see this thing??!!

i never even thought of it as a gay thing. guess i don't really care, i don't usually think of gay people when I see fairys/pixies, and I got the message of her dumbing things down to a cute nature.

yes a refresh is coming, but i don't think it will be enough unless the interior is completely redesigned. In its class I see no reason to pick the sts over superior cars like the M45, A6, 540, etc.

This will improve with time and as more products are introduced. Right now the idea of Saturn is Vues S-series, and L-series. We here know the future is bright for Saturn and are anticipating those cars. The public will warm up to the new Saturns as more and more are on the road. When Aura, Sky, Outlook, Vue, and Astra are all new, Saturn will be at 1 million units or more. Perception will take a few years to catch up but as long as the new product is rolling out on the streets, the people will begin to react. This is how Nissan, Infiniti, even Honda have all changed over the years. It happened for them, it will happen for us as cooler cars that are desirable are released.

as pointed out there is too much of it that is exaggerated, overall not flowing with the rest of the G6's aggressively demure overall shape. This adds spice, but in the wrong ways grille no spoiler no ground effects/fascias yes engine yes interior needs serious reworking before this car will ever be taken seriously against honda and mazda

not a big fan of the smoked out headlights, but otherwise I love your chop. The spoiler is a terrific improvement from this angle--makes the car appear less ungainly.

These pictures actually make it look good. There are a lot of good points so far in this thread--no I don't think this is the direction Pontiac should be going or taking the G6 in. However, this does something to add to the visual push of the car. and it might help sell coupes--which I have not seen one!! I don't know why it's not selling well, but it needs help.

The problem ultimately exists because there are employers in the US willing to help illegals work--for less money and less liability than they would pay citizens. It's really sad to me to see others turn thier back on immigrants, when this nation was founded on the idea of leaving somewhere for an opportunity to escape persecution. Literally, if all the immigrant workers, and all those who recently became legal workers thanks to the judicial system, were to stop working thier jobs as maintenence, labor, food processing, etc this nation would see a freeze in the economy. OTOH, to control the job situation all Americans have to do is start applying for those jobs! IF you're poor you go out and do something about it--seems to me those with rights here would rather allow some "wetback" [you bloody racist] "take" thier job instead of doing something about it.

they came before a design and product revolution overcame the halls of GM through the help of Lutz. When you first see sketches or prototypes of the next Impala you will beleive.

the spin doctor is out for the prowl. your writing has all the depth of a teenager, not surprising since your content/research is like blowing smoke at me.

though most of his numbers seem off, i think most of the complaints are legitimate. For its size and power and class, the Lucerne does fall short in some categories compared to what is out there. That doesn't make it a bad car, but the experience isn't as polished as it needs to be, in that lucrative category.

This doesn't negate the fact that GM cannot and has not made competitive small cars--not in the luxury 3-series realm and not in the economy realm either. Cobalt is decent but is outpaced by rivals, in its second year on the market. CTS was never a bogey for 3-series in terms of size. GM needs to compete on all fronts, better. They need to have 3-series type cars like they need Lucerne types.

Brilliant move. This is the only reason I would schedule Bob Lutz to be on 60 Minutes at this time. They picked a high profile destination and a high profile car PREVIEW at the right time. CTS debuts early showing now, release on the streets early summer next year [if possible GM: earlier]. Didn't Buickman tell people to watch this program? This may be GM's first great opening salvo in a great PR battle. CTS looks like dynamite--not toned down like recent efforts Escalade and DTS. the rear end looks like an awesome classic rear Eldorado update. the front resembles sixteen, escalade, and the dts and sts less. it looks phenomonal. there's still a whole lot more we cannot see of it though. The swept-back roofline sure looks like a coupe! But it also looks like Sixteen roofline. We will see as it all comes off. it would be incredible if they showed multiple cars like the Malibu and pickups--but I don't see it happening. What an awesome PR move to improve image. Now those cars with the amazing image features need to make it to the market.

of course, something like it or the velite as a radical, classy executive man's Buick would be perfect. GM can't see it yet though.

just to clear things up, we definitely are seeing the new CTS at NAIAS next year. It is coming relatively soon, but GM has a lot more in store for us this year still.

the topic of this thread is a difficult question to answer. I think public opinion might be negative and indifferent unless the media really portrays the UAW as the roadblock to improvements. The media would have to hammer home the issues like healthcare costs and overhead; which they haven't always been doing a good job of.

the general public would largely be comfortable with those cars. only the wealthy, enthusiasts, and those who truly need the power could pony up for higher-powered cars. Why is it people always complain about Clinton and yet he always does his research and knows the real issues?

Add to this that it does not address another core problem of sales on the coasts. Statistics show GM's lowest sales are on the coasts, where the majority of the population of the United States lives. Currently, public opinion of GM's cars and GM as a company is poor on the coasts, something must be done to fix this. Too many of Buickman's plan revolved around discounts and the sanctioning of employee-targeted discounts-----not addressing yet again the real core issues, not at the showroom level and not at the product level. To get more sales GM must first learn how to appeal to the affluent, and the people on the coasts better. Once it can appeal then it can be considered. The problem is being considered. No matter what GM does right now it does not get considered. This suggests a radical rethinking in the way product is designed. Right, if your product isn't selling, then you must adjust the product? FROM THERE, Buickman's plan still does not address the sales issues I was referring to. Poor product knowledge, backwards pressure-cooker sales practices, poor ambience, etc etc all of which have a great effect on what the consumer feels about the company and the brand. The coasts matter most. Come to Los Angeles and count the number of W-body cars on the road [besides new Impala rentals, of which they mostly all are]; when you compare that figure to the number of new GTOs on the road, you will understand GMs core problem is with appealing with the right kind of cars. Traditionally, the car market is where Gm has faltered, and that is reflected heavily here. Asian and European cars are in abundance, but no Epsilon, W-body, G-body cars are hardly present. Why is this? Why do the trucks do well here but the cars don't? Obviously it's not strictly an image and perception issue---if they had no image Chevrolet with the new Tahoe would be nonexistant, but that isn't the case and I'd be willing to bet the new Tahoe is selling at its best or close to best levels in the LA market. For years, GM's motto was the mentality of giving the public more car for the money---when in practice all it resulted in too often was a heavier, ponderous, overextended barge of a car. Was the public asking for this? Cue Honda Accord 1988 sales. Cue Toyota Camry through the '90's and up to now. The public was asking simply for a better car. Designed efficiently and proudly with great attention to assembly and engineering. Camry and Accord offered this. Design did not sell them, but it will take got to have killer design to get their grip off the customer's imagination. Legends of them began in the 90's; we are seeing the ripple effects of the word of mouth turn into 2000's dominance of sales. The public in Los Angeles especially are concerned with image, quality, sophistication, perception, assembly, and efficiency. They don't want a bigger car! They want a better car, with almost all the space of the bigger car in a smaller, more nimble package for handling those twisties and for sophisticated ride setup. My conclusion is to dare you to come to Los Angeles and count the number of W-bodys on the road, GP, LAcrosse, Intrigue, Impala; all are hardly existant. Meanwhile the Accords, Camrys, Maximas, Altimas, of the road take up the majority of mid-class sales. Then you have the majority class in Los Angeles, the affluent---another market GM has trouble targeting.

I was referring to the Roush edition G6 from Sema in my post. http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...?showtopic=2546 I like the front end treatment and ground effects, but the rear could stand to be sharper still. Agreed with you Tony on the bugs bunny grille from the Sema coupe, that was too much.

RRs have incredible presence, and the interior oozes refinement, class, and sophistication. Escalade is not a bad second choice, and whatever little it loses in class it makes up for in sheer value and performance. However, those things are not usually as important to high end shoppers as sophistication and magnificence.