FUTURE_OF_GM

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*Fixed That's what happens when you work in liberal academia. You lose sight of reality.

At the price point, I don't think bringing it to Oz as a Chevy is a smart move. Doesn't Chevy just peddle small, cheap cars there? I thought the divisional set up there was Chevy/Holden/Cadillac (Or maybe that was the plan at one point) That would make the Volt prime for either Holden or Cadillac. I hope Holden gets its own version. Then maybe that version can be the first Pontiac E-Flex. BTW, does the G8 feature AFM?!?! (I can't remember -- I must be getting old)

And that's what it boils down to. GM has 8 divisions that should cater to every corner of the market, regardless of whats hot. Yet, GM now has 4 divisions (channels) that insist on producing (and fighting) over mid-size and compact FWD sedan sales.

*Fixed

That's because Saturn is having the same problem Pontiac is having... It can't justify the price of the new cars to consumers. It's funny that GM thinks it can forsake Pontiac and all of that equity in favor of a brand that has sold nothing but outdated, discounted compact cars to a fraction of the market for the last 6 years and suddenly build that brand into a mid-lux, european flavored volume machine overnight. Really?!?! Give me a break. I mean, I was hopeful, just like every GM fan, but in the back of all our minds we we're all saying; "I'm not sure about this." In reality, the Insignia, at it's current price should be in BUICK showrooms (See my suggestions in the To GM section) and that's what pisses me off so bad about PCS yelling that Pontiac should be displaced by Saturn. Because if that ever happens, the argument will then be: "Why don't we just replace Buick with Opel since they're roughly the same content/price" Where will it stop??? At what point will Saab be battling Cadillac? (They already are IMO, with Saabs foray into green sh*t and the competing models in the dealer channel (EX: 9-4X & SRX- same frickin' name almost) Pontiac will not be repaired overnight, and because of that GM is abandoning the division, just like they abandoned Oldsmobile when it didn't revive itself overnight. (Eventhough it was showing very positive signs until the 1998 strike) I'm going to make a bold prediction that GM will do the same with Saturn in 3-5 years for the same reason. The division will either be closed down (The dealers won't be a big issue if GM continues to hurt like it is) or replaced with Opel or swallowed up by Buick. In america, corporations must have profits NOW. And that is a big reason why our businesses are failing. Unlike, the japanese, for instance we won't allow anything time to regenerate or show results. Because of that, no one cares about the long-term and that's a HUGE reason why Japan Inc. is killing us in this sector. (And will continue to IMO) Saab is the only wild card at the table, and I think the ONLY reasons GM hasn't sent it to the grave yet are 1) They're hanging onto the outdated and very stupid ideology that Saab can somehow transcend the domestic bias. Yeah right, the media has already "informed" the consumer not to buy GM owned Saabs for at least 10 years now. Not to mention, Saab like Saturn has absolutely NO equity/identity with an even bigger (than Saturn) majority of the buying public. 2) GM still believes that, if it gets really desperate, it can sell Saab and raise some cash. (Maybe $5 or so) Or 3) Saab somehow is favored over the HUNDREDS of years of history and MILLIONS of sales of all the core GM divisions.

The fact that Pontiac (GM's second best selling division) has a dwindling place in the market is enough to "Next Day Air" the Insignia here as a G6. GM needs volume to survive (Or so they say) They have a MASSIVE dealer network that features a name with so much equity that EVERY american knows something about it (Good or bad) And that network desperately needs good volume product. But instead, GM would rather take the car and appeal to a limited audience with a brand that is trying to capture a broad and uncaring audience that knows NOTHING about the brand in question, or even where it stands in the market. 1) I disagree. The Malibu is a very sweet car and looks to be a huge success. 2) According to GM, being class and style isn't Chevy's mission. (Especially now that apparently we'll be getting Daewoo junk) True... But it also needs more focused divisions for those of us that do not want the monotony of a Cadillac or Chevrolet. I have no doubt that this is why Detroit IS NOT dead yet. Eventhough they've been losing sales, the sales they've maintained are either die-hards or people that DO NOT WANT the appliances that the japanese brands and luxury brands provide. I want something unique... I don't buy a Lexus, because I don't want to own the same car as 15 other people on my street. I disagree... Wait 'til C.A.F.E. is fully felt. Chevy will be peddling updated 80's junk that none of us would be caught dead in (excluding a few models -- if those models survive) and Cadillac will be peddling great cars that 75-80% of us can't afford. That leaves the middle of the market WIDE OPEN and the company that can exploit that middle market with unique offerings (READ: Scion will do it, just wait and see -- funny no one wants them to be phased out) will see huge increases.

According to the article I read, this year was the first time the Malibu bested the Camry and the first time that 3 of the 5 top brands were domestics. Wasn't J.D. Power HEAVILY skewed toward the Japanese last year after it got sold off? I dunno... Judging by the piss poor media that we all have to endure on a daily basis, it wouldn't surprise me if the article was completely off base. I'll try to find it and post it.

Too bad this $h! doesn't see the front 10 pages of the news.

This really doesn't surprise me... I mean after all, the media has brainwashed everyone for the last 5 years that we should all go to our local Toyota dealer and give the sales manager head because their cars are "that good." People do as they're told and they believe what they're told. If you tell someone that Christ will come back to earth in a Toyota camry enough times, they'll set up an alter with a '95 Toyota Camry on it.

Hmm.... They need 10.3 billion and Chrysler has 11 billion. Coincidence?

Isn't that pretty much what Daimler did in the first place? I think that's why I've migrated from Chevrolet more to Pontiac as far as GM is concerned. I agree... The whole "merger" fest we've seen in the past 30 years (In every business segment) has done nothing but homogenize product, limit technology and eff over consumers. Talk about antitrust issues... Why do I not get to choose who I get my electricity or natural gas from? Why can I only buy from one supermarket? (In the rural south a lot of times one brand dominates the whole area) Yet these idiots (government and analysts) are worrying about a merger of 33% market share...

While I agree with you, I can see his point as well. Sadly, I don't think the market would miss MOST of our proud domestic brands. People just don't give a $h! anymore. As far as divisions go... Well, I could see this scenario definitley happening: (Sadly) Dodge replacing Pontiac and maybe even GMC (Because Dodge can make and sell more trucks than GMC and Dodge has a stronger image of sporty cars than Pontiac -- to most, all in one division. Jeep would be the spiritual successor to Hummer. (That's a natural) Chrysler would go the way of Oldsmobile, along with Pontiac and maybe GMC & Hummer. It already is... Thank the media and citizens for that.

True that. But I would rather see the company remain american. If anything, Chrysler would be a better replacement for Buick. (And I don't think that would EVER happen) Why does everyone here seem to think that Chrysler is in so much better shape than Dodge?!?! If ANYTHING, Chrysler is the WEAKEST division at Chrysler Corp. I thought LY was coming on line soon? Or has it been canceled too?

Umm, what? Since when does our government actually regulate business? Oh, wait, I forgot. This is Detroit and the government will do anything it can to screw them over. Antitrust over 33% (or likely less in a year) market share? WTF? Umm, yeah. Except it wouldn't take that much over what GM has now (share-wise) to surpass Toyota, so this isn't as EPIC as the article makes it out to be. I'll tell you what this boils down to... Cerberus and GM have been talking technology tie ups for A LONG time now. But now that the market has soured, Chrysler is bleeding Cerberus. So Cerberus is looking to unload Chrsyler, probably a lot earlier than it had originally planned. GM is a natural because of the strategic advantages that could be gained (Despite the HUGE risks) but Nissan is probably more likely to happen. I'd say that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And I'd say the american government and media had finally succeeded in destroying GM. It probably is... The goal would be to de-value GM that much more.

Still hovering around $3.50 here in Charlotte. Still hovering at about $3.50 back in Asheville too.

Sounds like somebody's scared Sounds like somebody's taking precautionary measures against an uprising not seen since the Civil War. Meh, no worries though. This country has fallen too far to ever present a truly united front again anyway.

No surprise there, they've already made their money. That's fine though. IMO, the government should 1) make it mandatory for the banks to be regulated (deregulation is what screwed this countrys economy over in the first place. A lack of oversight) or 2) Just mail taxpayers a check for the amount that the banks will not use based on not participating. I for one will be sure to buy my major purchases with cash from now on and I hope most other americans will to. That way, the bloat in the credit side will die off anyway.

That is the absolute WRONG attitude to have This is the corporate defeat mantra that seems to pervade GM and the other Detroit companies now. It's learned helplessness at it's best. 1) Why?!? That was a different (outdated piece of junk) car and a different time... Yet GM thinks that's a valid reason to not even TRY to do something like that in the future?!?! 2) Is this why GME hates Holden? Because Holden couldn't peddle its crap? *IF* Holden decides to do Delta RIGHT, then THIS should be your Pontiac version of Delta and THIS could be another way to save Pontiac if GM executes the product correctly Yet GME hates Holden? Then Japan and India should be subjected to the SAME restrictions in other countries. Homogeny... But I guess it's a good thing if it helps Holden. Nice... Is it coincidence that Alpha is set to debut in the 2010-2011 timeframe? Could Holden still have a part in Alpha? (Despite what people say)

If that's the case, why didn't we get Zeta 3 years earlier? I thought one of the major hurdles with Zeta was capacity. I think the future of Pontiac hinges on this statement here. The problem is; how removed from power is Bob Lutz? Since GMNA is still faltering and Lutz championed Zeta in light of current conditions, has his influence been lost? I've never heard of an Alfa turbo-ed version. If there is one, then why isn't it used here? More specifically, in Zeta? 10K less? See my post in the Pontiac forum for how I feel about that.

LMFAO.

Ya know... It's a good thing the Asstra sells over there, because it's virtually non-existant here. I've seen less Astras on the road than G8s. And to be honest, I don't see all that many G8s.

Nah... They'll instead LANGUISH at a dealer network that is too small to matter and continue to sell at 15/month. Maybe Pontiac should use it's extensive dealer network to it's advantage. "Give us Opels and you'll ACTUALLY SELL some of them here." Despite your striving to make it seem like a 'war of politics' PCS, I think the underlying (READ: yes, politics might be involved on top of this) reason that Pontiac will not get Opels is because the Pontiac name cannot bring enough R.O.I. on Opel products to justify it. I also think that's ONE of the reasons GM is debating locking Pontiac out of Alpha. If Alpha is to be a "one size fits all RWD platfform" (The article posted hints at that and you yourself said it would accomodate 4,6 & 8 cylinder engines) And if Alpha is to remain C.A.F.E. positive, it will require HEAVY investment. Cadillac and Buick (mostly thanks to China) can provide a good R.O.I. and Chevrolet can move enough units to negate the slim profit margin. I have a feeling that Pontiac and Holden, since they're not global and since they're more focused (i.e. less potential volume from alpha) and since they're mid level brands (i.e. less profit margin, if any) are having a hard time convincing GM that they should be on the program. That's sad to me... That the industry is being FORCED into bi-polar homogeny. In the future; either you can buy a $h!ty homogenous 'appliance' for average money or you can step up the price ladder substantially and get a car that you desire (the same cars that today, we take for granted) As a buyer, that leaves me out because I don't want an appliance and I don't want a pretentious 'pig with lipstick' (although a CTS-V does sound amazing ) This is yet another area where GM could make Pontiac a real winner. But hey, what do I know? I'm not pessimistic enough or blind enough or trained to think status quo enough to make it in Detroit. (On second thought PCS, if we ever do get to meet, I think cars and Detroit should definitely be the topic of conversation. )

Meh.. I got the Zetas I'm in the market for. (G8 GXP and Camaro) Although I'd rather have an Alpha based Camaro or Pontiac with a V8.

I must say, the S5 is pretty sexy. Wait, did I really just say that?