FUTURE_OF_GM

Okay, first I thought Lutz response was just a well rehearsed PR piece to ready us for the bland-different grille, same body FWD barrage of Opel clones that we'll now be getting. Same with Wagoner and his "It's more than just a brand comment." But now I see how ridiculous your comment made that seem. How do you consider the Sky and Solstice to be badge engineering? How are ANY of the Zeta vehicles badge engineered? The CTS certainly isn't like the G8 and the G8 is certainly miles away from the Camaro and 'heritage inspired' Impala that was on its way. Seriously, you sit there at an arm of GM that designs Chevrolets to look like Daewoos (Intentionally, none-the-less) Insignias that ARE badge engineered as Saturns, that apparently look too much like Buicks and 2 Saabs that are the same size and same price, yet different entities entirely?!?! If ever there was badge engineering at GM outside of trucks, GME is where it's at. Then again, everything from your shores (out of GM anyway) is so damn generic and forgettable, who could tell?

Something that actually looks european and crisp (Like the old Opels) instead of a 'melted' sushi wagon. My major bitch with Opel, besides it's annoying leadership, is the loss of distinct design by a division that used to produce very hot cars.

Ya know, as pissed off as I am, it's hella more attractive than the 'elephant meets a witch doctor with shrinking powder' Aveo 5. I wouldn't mind this too much If GM had left the 4 door at Chevy and given Pontiac exclusive rights to the 5 door.

F8ck them... Remember when california refused to count anything but the Prius as eligible for their incentives? Pay back is a bitch, ehh?

I guess this is why Alpha supposedly makes sense for Buick now... It's still if you ask me.

Maybe all of that was to hide the fact that our entire economy has been outsourced. "lipstick on a pig"

IIRC, didn't Citigroup already experience some turmoil? I had the opportunity to work for them about a year ago. I opted out, and I'm kind of glad I did now.

Nah... How I look at it: Pessimism is the new REALISM[

A.I.G. really shocked me today... How 'bout BAC? Snatching up Merrill Lynch like that? BAC really worries me because they're HQ-ed here in town and were likely to be employing me in about a year. Maybe I'll think twice about that.

Umm... 1 word: DURAMAX I don't remember GME working on that one...

I know... The brand has the potential to be the next Scion or Mini...

TAKE 3: Cadillac: Sedan & Coupe Pontiac: Sedan and LIMITED volume coupe (as a halo) Chevrolet: Coupe The volume sedan comes from Pontiac and saves their ass, the volume coupe comes from Chevrolet, the Cadys are just iicing on the cake with big margins and the Pontiac coupe is a bone thrown to the true enthusiasts. Well shall call it GTO and it shall have a tweaked V8. And it shall have almost as high of a margin as the Caddys (Yes, the loyalists like myself and Camino would STILL buy it)

So... Why can't Holden and Pontiac operate as Vauxhall does? Take cars/architecture from other divisions, restyle it and call it a day. If Vauxhall can exist, then so too should Pontiac and Holden. Pontiac worries me, but I really don't see Holden going anywhere. Will they be a leader in development like with Zeta? Probably not... But they'll still need products for their market and they'll either have to develop them alone (like back in the 90s) or team with someone. You can't just phase out Holden. In fact, I'd say there would be less outrage if Pontiac were phased out. And the other part of this argument is; aren't Buick and Pontiac essentially one division? Couldn't they share architectures/platforms universally under each name? Holden pretty much is Buick in China FWIW. So why not tie up Holden, Buick AND Pontiac if the divisions are to be as "focused" as GM foretold?

Isn't that the same mindset that made GM complacent in the first place? Old skool GM think from the 'old world' I suppose? Status Quo. Nothing more, nothing less.

Agreed... I can't afford a Cadillac Alpha, but I would certainly be in the running for a Pontiac Alpha.

No. 'Redneck' was my word. I put it in quotes to emphasize a point about how society views Pontiac enthusiasts. I also have major issues with the word and I should've made it more clear that I wasn't directly quoting you.

I bet the GME boys are loving this... Bob Lutz literally kissing their Asstra

Badge it as a Pontiac in NA and a Buick in China... Same sales channel right? (AS I predicted the other day) I guess Cadillac doesn't want the heat from Pontiac, since Cadillac can't command the right premium for it's cars. Good point. Add to that the fact that Chevrolet is supposedly getting both an Alpha sedan and Camro and it makes even less sense. If Cadillac thought Pontiac was going to eat there lunch, just wait and see what 'heritage' inspired chevrolet models do to them. Not to mention, Buick is getting a model as well which is even closer to competing with them. Sounds like political to me. Some faction in GM wants Pontiac to die... Plain and simple. Anyone who is this stuck in the past should be fired on the spot. (PCS included) As usual, GM's logic is more F888ed up than a meth head on speed. Let us PRAY that GM has not made the ignorant choice of giving Buick an Alpha model in favor of Pontiac. Besides, same company, same money from the sales, same bank account. If GM can't control it's infighting better than this, the company will not see another 20 years, much less 100.

+1 (Unless Zeta is going to be phased out in China as well)

That didn't stop them with Oldsmobile... One would hope they're not that stupid now, but it is GM after all. To kill a volume division, that has the potential to create A LOT more volume (for better or worse) in a market where you need volume to sustain the company is pure ignorance IMO. But, it is GM after all.

Nah... "Camaro" has too much brand equity and identity for GM to cancel the program now. Not to mention, the program is global. There will be a 6th gen. The question is; will it be worth even looking at?

GM is a global company... Pontiac is not a global division... And therein lies the problem. Maybe the Holden link up was Pontiac's future global position (And still could be) but now with that scene getting kicked by gas prices, who knows. The problem with Pontiac is that it offers nothing Chevrolet couldn't. But with the right management at GM and some creativity, it could become viable again.

I think Caddy should be left alone. If any true (READ: Not Saab, it should go first) GM division is cut, it needs to be Saturn. GME can just deal with Opel becoming Pontiac. For GM to expand Saturn they're going to have to establish the brand and then move it upmarket. For Pontiac, they just have to move it upmarket. I fear that GM is basically exchanging damaged brands for 'clean sheet' brands. The hierarchy used to be 1) Chevrolet 2) Pontiac 3) Oldsmobile 4) Buick 5) Cadillac. Unfortunately, the new hierarchy appears to be 1) Chevrolet 2) Saturn (to replace damaged Pontiac, Chevrolet will 'expand' as PCS says to satisfy what few Pontiac 'rednecks' are left. Saturn takes on the new image of sport) 3) Saab (Saab is big on tech, especially green tech now, so it will become the GM technology division instead of Olds) 4) Buick (Only because China is saving it's ass right now) and 5) Cadillac As far as GMC... Who the hell knows? (Does GM even know?) GM will pick Chevrolet over GMC for volume trucks, so either GMC goes the way of Pontiac or GMC matures into the Buick truck counterpart. I think it's all a croc of but I'm not in charge, so whatever.

I don't really think it's that as much as it's GM realizing: "We're screwed in america, we must grow our sales outside of america" and an established luxury division that can create a price premium is much more appealing from a business standpoint than a 'performance' division that has never left NA. I just don't see what the big deal is with Pontiac though. GM gutted Saturn and turned them into Opel. Why not do the same with Pontiac, except us Holden? Who cares if it's limited volume? That's what Pontiac needs to be anyway if it is going to build a performance image. As for the dealers... Well, if they want volume GM should bring the fliers for a Saturn franchise to them... Supposedly, Saturn needs reach, Pontiac needs to build an image and the dealers need volume. VOILA! Problems solved!

Maybe, since they're dumbing down Cadillac products, it will be the new Pontiac and Saab can be the new GM luxury division **Fixed