FUTURE_OF_GM

What is this GMI you speak of?!?! You're probably going to disagree with this, but I would give that motor to Pontiac for the G5.

Well, it depends... On how much you want to de-content the Corvette platform. My vision was for the Solstice to be a true drivers car, in that none of the superfluous amenities of the Corvette are needed. The same people that (would) buy a Solstice could be found at the track or local parking lot racing the car on the weekends. It would be the 'ultimate' performance model and halo for Pontiac in that it would be a true race capable car. What better way to make a statement about what your division is than through a halo that 'takes it to the track'. I mean seriously build something that has the balance to 'wow' people (Think Lotus, except cheaper and maybe not quite as good -- you get what you pay for) instead of a poseur 'performance' car like say the Shelby GT500. (Don't get me wrong, I'd kill to own a GT500, but lets face it, most of the cars will never see a track and as a result weren't DESIGNED for it) Imagine what a base Corvette would be like if it were lightened a bit (smaller, forced induction motor and less luxury) with about the same power via a DOHC motor. That is my vision for the Solstice. The Corvette should NEVER see anything smaller than a V8 and performance in Corvette land should always top out at the Z06 or ZR1 level since they sell tons of 'cruiser' base models. (What is it now? 60+% of Corvettes come with the auto transmission?) That way, it's niche is protected and the Solstice can take up the slack and Pontiac can benefit. Saturn can take up the current sales base, since the Sky *appears* to be more popular anyway. This idea originated when I read somewhere that Kappa and Y-Body were supposed to become ONE platform the next time around. The news came from some pretty prominent sources, but I never received confirmation about if it was going to happen for sure. That, in itself could explain the death of Kappa II and is pretty relevant given that Kappa is basically a downsized Y-Body. I agree... Now it is unnecessary. My goal with Cadillac is to raise prices. IMO, a lot of the reason GM cannot grow it's middle divisions is because Cadillac is positioned too down market to allow these divisions to grow. GM can't promote Cadillac as your global luxury car leader if it's selling Buicks and GMCs and Chevrolets for as much or more money. (During the height of the SUV boom, Chevrolet was actually GM's top selling 'luxury' division because of all the loaded GMT800s they were selling) Yes.. (Insignia) Is the name change official? I don't hate GME, just like I don't hate Democrats (or Republicans) All I'm saying is that there must be a balance of power. GME needs to answer to people and justify it's decisions just like GMNA does. As for the Gamma and Delta models. The more variety the better! I think a lot of the anti-GM people will be moving towards efficiency in the future (or basically, small cars) Saturn would be perfect for a nice round line up of small cars that appeal to these people.

Man, I forgot all about the Volt. Thanks for pointing that out. (I fixed it)

I can see your point in that it would eliminate the Saturn arm of the sales channels without having to buy out the Saturn dealers. But what is the share and product benefit? Saturn pulls what, 2% or less of market share a year? 1) Your going to wipe out VERY VALUABLE market share either way, especially closing GM's second best selling division (Fleet or not) That share is basically a "Here ya go, take it on us" gift to the asian competitors. 2) Even if you weren't looking to shed share, by trimming the 2% that the saturn dealers bring to the table, you still have a HUGE brand portfolio battling for "on a good day, 20% of share" (<--- A defeatist attitude in and of itself) And then what of the dealers? Do you think they're going to settle for less volume? These are the same dealers that OPENLY advocate and fight for GM clone models. (Canyon, G5, G3) What happens to Opels image when it has to start selling Opel G3s and Opel G5s? Launching the Opel name alone in North America will probably wipe out any savings from killing a bunch of 're-badged' Pontiacs. I'm sorry PCS. I don't mean half of what I say to be taken personally, I hope you realize that. But this kind of backwards thinking is what is killing GM. This kind of backwards thinking is what led to the CREATION of Saturn at the expense of the core divisions in the first place. It's almost as if GM expects to cut the engine out of the car and then try to drive into town faster. It makes no sense. Revisited, how is this any different from a successful B/P/GMC channel? I mean, I'm assuming that CURRENTLY, people aren't willing to pay high enough transaction prices for GM to make any money off of Pontiacs. But the idea was that EVENTUALLY, once the Pontiac Buick GMC channel was re-established (Remember, this channel was never supposed to be VOLUME per se) it WOULD be a mid-lux, more specialized sales channel. That was the whole idea behind products like the Enclave, the Denalis and plans like an all RWD, performance based Pontiac division. Even if GM did introduce Saturn/Opel into the channel at the expense of Pontiac, who's to say the buyer would pay 'premium' prices for those cars anyway? Most consumers either 1) Don't know the Opel brand 2) Remember it as a cheap, undesirable option from 30+ years ago or 3) would just consider it a Saturn in spirit (especially in light of the name change) and be unwilling to pay premiums for it. Remember, Saturn, once the maker of 'Rubermaid' cars (and not too long ago, either) is having just as hard of a time pulling 'premium' transaction prices as Pontiac is. How about this; I'll run with your Buick/Saturn/GMC channel idea... But then, now that the channel has the volume it needs and Saturn has the growth it needs, why not make Pontiac a focused 2-3 car performance division and team it up with select Chevy dealers? Chevy and Pontiac share the same demographics, the dealer network is already strong and a performance Pontiac line would complement the Corvette and Camaro nicely. Think of it in the same sense as you think of the old "Chevy & Corvette" dealers, except Pontiac, while premium to Chevy, wouldn't be premium to the Corvette like Corvette was to Chevy

I LOVE Kool-Aid! Tang is good too though, I especially like to take Grape Tang and squeeze some fresh Lemon into it.

That makes no sense... If you bring Opel into B/P/GMC, you'll still have 3 major sales channels in a market "that on a good day is only 20%" It's just a pissing match. GME wants Opel to expand into a global brand and they will continue to try and kill GM divisions until that happens. What about when Opel sits in the same showroom as Buick and sells for the same prices? Will Buick be the next brand to be "irrelevant and redundant"? Retiring Pontiac makes no sense... You'll still have the same number of dealers, the same products and the same WEAKENING, half-assed B/P/GMC sales channel. So, you're plan is to save how much money by phasing out Pontiac? And then you're going to spend HOW MUCH MONEY on buying out Saturn dealers/merging Saturn into the B/GMC channel/rebuilding the channel to accommodate a 'Euro flair'. THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND HOW MUCH(?!?!?!) TO LAUNCH AND ESTABLISH OPEL IN THE U.S. WHILE ENDURING THE NEGATIVE PR OF PHASING THE SATURN NAME OUT (On top of the negative PR of phasing the much more relevant -- in media terms Pontiac name?!?!?! People need to realize that the 60's ONLY ENCOMPASS A SMALL AMOUNT OF WHAT PONTIAC IS. Saying that Pontiac is irrelevant today based on what you perceived it to be in the 60s is akin to saying that Cadillac is irrelevant today based on what you perceived it to be in the 30s or 40s.

I know that was my natural sarcasm shining through

How much of that difference is 'accounting' and how much is real money? Pontiac is not the reason GM is losing money. Business is cyclical and GM management should've seen (and corrected) the 'maturation' of the union and the problems that would cause LONG AGO.

It's not that simple. And GM's road to recovery is not about homogeny either. But a little part of me hopes that they (GM) think it is, because I can't wait to say "I told you so"

Agreed... And I would be fine with pontiacs current line up (G3 included) as long as it stays this broad and keeps the division around. I wouldn't exactly call them "unsuccessful" And I certainly hope GM isn't dumb enough to just let Pontiac die, when it has the means to support the division (in one form or another) indefinitely.

And that's why I will NOT buy a new GM again (If this happens) unless there is justification. And right now, it looks as if there is absolutely NO justification. What's funny is that, at this point in time one COULD argue that Pontiac has the most DIVERSE line up at GM WITH the most appeal. And maybe that's why others in the empire (or village rather, now that the ship is sinking so fast) are so pissed off. Think about it, Pontiac has VOLUME players (G3, G5, G6, Vibe & Torrent) Pontiac has HALO cars (G8, Solstice & Solstice Targa) and Pontiac has cars THAT NO OTHER DIVISION OFFERS (Solstice Targa, G8 [in this price range -- Actually, NO other GM division save cadillac offers a competitive large car at all], G8 ST, G6 coupe, G6 convertible and would be G8 wagon and/or GTO) Had GM executed the product that Pontiac has CORRECTLY and built the image that the brand deserves, the investment would be paying off HUGE by now. But instead, GM took the lazy way out by rebadging 2 of the volume products, not promoting the other 3 and barely promoting and/or canceling the halo products. It's typical GM ignorance and politics. They have all of the POTENTIAL in the world, but they squander it on a means to a suicide.

So basically another FWD mass produced GM car to replace your current FWD mass produced GM car. (By then, surely cadillac will be thieving basic &#036;h&#33;ty hardware from all corners of the empire right? In their struggle to march down market to sell volume over image) All sarcasm aside, I thought you had settled on a Saab? Trading camps are we?

+1

The platform and development are done in the form of Alpha and/or Kappa II And yes, BUICK could be given the car (with a different nose) for China (To slot below the Park Avenue)

Okay, 1) I proposed a Pontiac plan that would make them VERY relevant in the years going forward. See the front page for that. (Not being an ass, just an FYI because I'm excited about it) 2) I would LOVE to see GM 'spin off' Pontiac to some investors. If I had extra money, I would certainly be interested in the division. It would never be the same again, but that's not a bad thing.

Sure... That's a valid representation of reality.... UNTIL YOU HIT THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT. There are 20 companies that sell cars. It isn't hard to make an excellent product with technology that hasn't changed that much in 50 years (No matter what GM tells you) The difference is how you market the product and who forms an emotional attachment to the product. I can go anywhere and buy a car. But I can't go anywhere and buy (what I perceive to be) a Pontiac. Because "Pontiac" represents who I am, just like "Toyota" might represent who Satty is. (And I don't mean that as a bad thing. To each his own) So now (That the product is so easy -- there is no quality or technology or performance gap anymore) the BRANDS could become more of an asset than ever. You can't sell me a PONTIAC through CHEVROLET because CHEVROLET "isn't me". Just like you can't sell a Toyota through Lexus because "Toyota" doesn't represent Lexus. So here is the real dilemma: Does GM think it's worth it to keep producing, or try to expand a division (Pontiac) that LESS AND LESS people identify with? Is GM willing to invest in the division to expand it's appeal or will they sell us, the people who have been faithful to them all these years, out? It always annoys me when people bring up comparisons to regular run-of-the-mill products. An Aiwa stereo? Seriously? Any good economist will tell you that a durable goods purchase, especially one as deeply embedded in our minds as an automobile (perhaps nothing else on the market is like it) considers A LOT more thought that regular goods. I don't see people buying accessories for their Sony Walkmans and parading them through the neighborhood to show them off. As for my relationship with GM, if Pontiac goes away.... Hmm... I'm not sure what I'll do. If they can justify it (Seriously justify it and not just blow smoke up our asses) then I *might* be able to forgive. I'm still pretty pissed off about Oldsmobile, but I blame that more on the imports than GM. Thanks to all the &#036;h&#33; PCS talks (You know, a GM employee, that apparently likes pissing off GM enthusiasts and running sales off) I'm already militant in regards to Saturn. I'm becoming sour on Cadillac (But then, only the V series products and Escalade seriously appeal to me anyway) I could never see myself in a Buick (Unless the Alpha Riviera is actually a go, I'm just *interested* to see it) I will never, ever buy a Saab. Even though I loved Hummer for it's image, unless they produced the HX I would've never bought there. So that leaves GMC (which is where I WOULD go if I wanted a GM truck) and Chevrolet. Traditionally, I'm a Chevy fan. But the only way I could see them getting my money now (the way they look to be headed) is through the HHR SS or Cobalt coupe SS (Both supposedly discontinued soon) or a higher level model like the Camaro SS or Corvette Z06. I could definitely see myself in a Ford, if need be. I'll ALWAYS own classics, especially if we go all electric. I could also see myself in a RWD or SRT Chrysler product. And I could even see myself giving BMW or *gulp* Mini a try.

+1

I'd like to thank all of those loyal Toyota buyers for all that they do to ensure that I can still continue to buy Chevrolets. [FOG raises his middle finger in the air] "Thanks a [25] billion guys!"

As always, I am innocent. :AH-HA_wink:

But why? You'd be better off to kill the Outlook and Enclave. The Enclave will be battling for sales with the Escalade. It seems that GM is trying to produce MORE products with higher margins (naturally) But in doing that, they're creating competing products (EXAMPLE: Cadillac SRX & Saab 9-4X, in the same showroom none the less) Mark my words, a Lambda Escalade will be to close to the Enclave to be taken seriously by the media and prospective buyers. Lambda is SO GOOD that it's going to be impossible to set the Escalade apart.

+1 (times 1000) The HX was a revolutionary concept.. Hopefully the concept hasn't died with the division and we'll see a GMC or Chevy version.

2 things factored into this section heavily. 1) C.A.F.E and 2) Investment. GM doesn't have much money, so the leaner they can be right now, the better. A lot of these cars & trucks are either already developed, coming down the pipe or have the basic engineering already done.

Am I the only one that thinks she (Lohan) is a hideous chud of a woman? Re: Clay Aiken. No surprises there, I mean the guy basically is... well... a chick, in appearance and mannerism.

But that's the core problem... GM cannot make any margins on anything smaller than a truck. Until they can find a way to produce small cars that have higher transaction prices, they will be doomed. (But then again, that was the plan right? With CAFE and all) Unfortunately, that (profitably producing small cars) probably means the end of excitement and most of GMNA operations at GM. (Again, wasn't that the plan?)

And how is that any different from the Prius? (Especially the FIRST Prius and first half of the second gen) In fact, how is that any different from 90% of "green" technology? Do you honestly think a 'machine that was created to make money' (A corporation) will go out of it's way to incur unneeded cost for the sake of generations we won't even know? The ONLY reason corporations are becoming "green" is because society is demanding that they become "green". And trust me, MOST of the "green" technology resides in the Marketing and PR dept.