Drew Dowdell

I guess we don't have one of these really. Those of us with Project cars post to that. I fixed the hubcaps of mine that were creaky and clicking ever since the new tires got installed. They didn't tighten the wheel cover locks down enough. Also took the Toronado to an "All Oldsmobile" car cruise. Got there a little late, but I was the only Toronado there of any year. Lots of well preserved 88s and 98s from the 70's and 80's. Will upload pictures tonight.

I would guess that Cadillac gets 25% of GM's R&D dollars if they are lucky. And 50% probably goes to trucks and the rest of the car brands and lines have to squeak by on the remaining 25% Acording to Daimler's annual report, Mercedes passenger cars got $9.1 billion in R&D spending in 2009-2010. Mercedes trucks another $3.7 billion over 2 years, and Vans/Buses another $1.6 billion. Total of $14.4 billion over two years for Daimler, but Mercedes cars does enjoy 63% of Daimler's big budget. Anyone think GM will give Cadillac $9 billion in 2 years? But that budget also includes things like the A-Class, B-Class, and R-Class which Cadillac isn't and shouldn't compete with. And Mercedes does mix-n-match their platforms, engines and transmissions around.

Welcome Bill and Riviera74. Hope you'll add your rides to the C&G Garage

If their using aluminium on a "lowly" Holden.. makes you wonder what might get used on a Cadillac ATS.

SMK, Mercedes doesn't spend 6-billion all at once, it's over a series of 5 to 6 years with staggered rollouts for each one. There is a larger RWD Caddy coming. There is another crossover coming, the CTS refresh should be along soon.

I don't doubt that we will see a TTV6. Chevy almost has to do it in response to an EcoBoost Mustang. Doesn't mean it would be the top engine though. The Chevy can hit the weight I mentioned above, and LNF with the turbo revisions would do nicely for a base engine.

All of my numbers were "worst case" to reflect any additional hardware each engine might need. The LS and TTV6 engines might weigh the same, but the LS almost certainly is capable of more torque that the chassis needs to handle. BMW did it. The 5-series is a cut down 7-series.

Halo Riviera - we've already been given the wink and a nod that a Riviera was coming.* When I stated that I thought it should be FWD like the Riviera was for most of it's life as a model (not a trim), they asked my why it shouldn't be RWD. The rest of the conversation we had didn't shine a light anywhere, but the question they asked me I believe was a hint. *When asked about why they chose the name "Regal" for the current car and not something new, GM replied that Regal got the second highest positive response in their customer focus groups regarding nameplate image. Later when asked if Buick would ever bring the Riviera back, the reply was "Well there was only one name that got a higher score than Regal." For what brand? Camaro would certainly get a convertible.

BTW, Sigma cost $1 billion to develop and they got, what 4 cars out of it? 6 if you count the coupe and wagon variants separately? ATS will get sedan, coupe, and convertible. Camaro will be on it CTS will move to it (along with at least one of it's non-sedan body styles) Holden will get a copy or 3, Opel might if there is a wagon. Buick will get at least one 6 with a possible 6 more vehicles worldwide.

Cool as an Opel I mean.

As dwight said, better horsepower for Cadillac.

Ok class, let's do some math. Let's say that when equipped with the 4-cylinder turbo and automatic, the ATS is 3400 lbs. Sounds about right for a vehicle around 180 inches long, after all, that's the weight of the base 3-series. How did we get that number? The Camaro, which is generally considered to be a fat pig, is 190 inches and 3769 lbs. in automatic form. Saving 300lbs on a new platform designed to be 10 inches smaller and uses higher strength steel is child's play. But "The Camaro is a V6!" you say. Righto - Lets look at the weight difference between the 4-cylinder Malibu and V6 Malibu. A Malibu LT 4-cylinder is 3415 A Malibu LTZ 6-cylinder is 3649 Let's also assume there is extra weight on the LTZ coming from non-drivetrain parts. 50lbs So the Camaro could save 150 lbs. just by switching to a 4-cylinder. Leaving just 150lbs to find somewhere in the Zeta platform in order to hit the 3400lb weight target on a 10 inch shorter vehicle that uses higher strength alloys. Not even GM could screw that up. Let's work the other way round. Base ATS starts at 3400lbs... but there is no way the Camaro will get all of the equipment and sound deadening the Cadillac will. Having 2 fewer doors, less equipment, less sound deadening, can easily end up giving back 200lbs. So you're looking at a possible 3200lb Camaro (yes, powered by a 4-cylinder in base form... come to the year 2011 please). So you have an ATS at 3400lbs and a Camaro at 3200lbs. Lets start adding things back in: Turbo V6 for Camaro and ATS - add 250lbs to 3650 and 3450 respectively. The 335i is 3605lbs and the Mustang V6 base is 3453. Smallblock V8 for Camaro and ATS-V - add another 200lbs each to 3850 and 3650. The M3 is 3753 by increasing aluminum usage and the Mustang GT is 3605. Now - lets stretch the Alpha platform all the way up and over 5-series 193" size to 196 inches. Why that number? Well because even "heavy" Zeta can come in at 40lbs lighter than the 535i. The 196" Pontiac G8 GXP V8 weighed 4050lbs and the 2008 Cadillac STS V8 clocked in with 3995 lbs on Sigma. So GM can use either of it's two heaviest RWD platforms and literally ANY engine it produces save for the Duramax and still be lighter than a 3 inch shorter 2011 BMW 535i. Why am I worried about the smaller, lighter, Alpha platform weight again?

All it's gotta do is keep the look close enough to the current Durango and it'll do fine for that volume

Saw not 1 but 4 Rolls Royce Phantoms during my stay in Toronto.

Different type of car--driving dynamics aren't important. Is that why every rag out there tests mid-size family sedans by running them through a battery of tests and then picks the one with the best combination of handling and acceleration? I'm not saying that handling isn't important, but if Alpha is "near perfect" for a 3-series size vehicle, what are we upset about? Are we upset that if it is sized like the 5-series it won't handle like a 3-series? Well I've got news for you....neither does the 5-series. Just because the platform can be sized up doesn't mean the vehicle at the small end will be compromised. I disagree with the notion that the ability, by itself, to accept a V8 compromises the platform. The Audi S5, the Mercedes C-class, Lexus IS-F, and previous generation 3-series, are sitting there taunting that idea. People with limited funds have been putting the small block V8 into the Miata since there has been a Miata and their biggest concern is typically cooling or getting the rear wheels to stick. I'm sure GM can figure it out for a 3-series size sedan.

Given my experience with Honda AWD currently, I have no confidence in it's ability to be used when needed in towing situations.

Cool! If the actual ends up looking like that chop, it wouldn't be a bad thing!

Freightliner - Mercedes

I'm gonna get a link from a friend that might help.

mine goes to 11

Almost every FWD car at Toyota bigger than the Corolla is a Camry derivative. Camry, Venza, Sienna, Highlander, RX, Avalon - all related.

I think this is the key aspect of the platform that we should be focusing on. Zeta was remarkably flexible in this regard (although the attribute has so far been under-utilized). I expect Alpha to be even moreso. You have to think that some lessons have been learned. I remain optimistic about both Alpha and the Zeta II/Zeta light/Zeta-Sigma larger car platforms. I believe that GM ran into an issue with the flexibility of Zeta when they tried to start using it for things it wasn't originally intended for. Look at the amount of effort and changes just to get the Camaro we have today. But as you say, lessons (hopefully) have been learned for Alpha. Hence the requirements that it be able to accept 4, 6, and 8 cylinder engines.

Wonder how well GMC sells up here in Canadia... I'm seeing averts for $9500 in rebates $0 down and low financing.

See that 4 with a C around it? You want that number to be higher. Higher is faster. I think they go up to 8.

There is another new RWD platform looming out there for large cars. I don't know what it's based on originally, whether it is a derivative of Zeta, Sigma or just what..... but it's called Omega. It will debut with the Cadillac flagship over the XTS.