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    William Maley

    Rumorpile: Cadillac LTS To Debut At New York

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      LTS for New York?!

    A new report from Autoblog says Cadillac is planning on premiering their flagship sedan, possibly named LTS, at next year's New York Auto Show. A source at the company says the brand is preparing their competitor to the Audi A8, BMW 7-Series, and Mercedes-Benz S-Class to be shown at New York.

    The source dismisses the current XTS as a placeholder, and not a "real" Cadillac. The source admits that the new S-Class is a tough competitor to upcoming model.

    Sadly, no information on powertrains or other key details were revealed.

    Source: Autoblog

    William Maley is a staff writer for Cheers & Gears. He can be reached at william.maley@cheersandgears.com or you can follow him on twitter at @realmudmonster.

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    I'd be surprised if they aren't competing with the Hyundai Equus, Lexus LS460 and the 6 cylinder A8.    More in that $70k range of 2nd tier big luxury sedans.  Even the 7-series is an ambitious target, and none of these cars are giving the S-class much competition right now.  If they parts bin the engines and interior of the LTS and price it over $80k they are going to get ELR like sales volume. Even the A8 only sells about 400-500 cars a month, and it is an established car from a growing brand.

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    Cadillac didn't "parts bin" either interior of the ATS/CTS, so there's zero reason to even mention such here.

    Cadillac doen't care how many of these sedans it sells; Cadillac is not in the crushing volume game that MB is. 250 units/mnth is a fine target, if a target is even made public (I wouldn't approve making public mention of one). Would keep the car very exclusive, instead of seeing yourself in the next row at WalMart in the 7 / S.

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    It could cost over $1 billion to develop a new model on a new platform.  Some car companies spend more.    But lets suppose GM spends $1 billion on the Omega/LTS.  If they sell 300 per month at a profit of $10,000 per car (over a 10% margin which is better than what Audi or Mercedes operate at) Cadillac over a 6 year life cycle would make $216 Million in profit, against the cost of $1 billion, a loss of $784 million.  They can't only sell 300 a month.  Surely though some at GM has "built the business case" which makes you wonder if the budget is more like $500 million, in a hope that if they sell 500 a month they could break even on it. 

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    But according to your common diatribe, that uber-sedan flagship automatically translates into increased sales of ANY AND ALL other Cadillacs AND GM products via the so-called 'halo effect', thusly lesser models selling at a profit will increase in sales & offset a possible bottom line loss on the Omega/Fleetwood. No one in the Company is looking at it in a vacuum, but as part of the brand catalog.

     

    By your math; audi is taking a huge beating on the A8 too, no? 500/mnth at a lower margin means that model had to have been cancelled years & years ago because it's costing VW hundreds of millions over a 6-yr timespan. Explain.

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    LTS, REALLY? Come on GM, Time to use the names that truly drive prestige. The Top of the line should be an Eldorado, Fleetwood or De Ville

     

    Even GM Insider News states how much they hate the 3 letter BS.

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    But according to your common diatribe, that uber-sedan flagship automatically translates into increased sales of ANY AND ALL other Cadillacs AND GM products via the so-called 'halo effect', thusly lesser models selling at a profit will increase in sales & offset a possible bottom line loss on the Omega/Fleetwood. No one in the Company is looking at it in a vacuum, but as part of the brand catalog.

     

    By your math; audi is taking a huge beating on the A8 too, no? 500/mnth at a lower margin means that model had to have been cancelled years & years ago because it's costing VW hundreds of millions over a 6-yr timespan. Explain.

    Audi has already sold 1.4 million cars this year, in the United States they have only sold like 120,000 this year, Audi could sell zero cars in the USA and turn a profit.  The American market isn't that important to Audi, but crucial to Cadillac who has little global presence.   Plus the A8 platform is used for Bentley which has crazy markup, so they get to recycle some engineering there.

     

    Halo effect does work, and is needed not only to sell more of your lower end cars, but also to expand globally.    Cadillac needs the Omega car, but if they botch it and it is one and done product it won't have the desired Halo effect.  Whether or not Cadillac can pull off a success here is the question, but I look forward to seeing the debut.

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    I think Cadillac would expect to move at least 2,000 a month of these.  And I do think it wouldn't be hard, if they keep a version of it accessible price wise, and if the interior is truly ON PAR with a German car.  Also they can distinguish the LTS with a v8.

     

    ATS is botched due to small back seat and bland dash.  CTS is botched a bit due to some funny styling and questionable pricing.  LTS ont he upper end would allow Caddy to move some ATS and CTS pricing down also, get some more volume back there.

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    But according to your common diatribe, that uber-sedan flagship automatically translates into increased sales of ANY AND ALL other Cadillacs AND GM products via the so-called 'halo effect', thusly lesser models selling at a profit will increase in sales & offset a possible bottom line loss on the Omega/Fleetwood. No one in the Company is looking at it in a vacuum, but as part of the brand catalog.

     

    By your math; audi is taking a huge beating on the A8 too, no? 500/mnth at a lower margin means that model had to have been cancelled years & years ago because it's costing VW hundreds of millions over a 6-yr timespan. Explain.

    Audi has already sold 1.4 million cars this year, in the United States they have only sold like 120,000 this year, Audi could sell zero cars in the USA and turn a profit.  The American market isn't that important to Audi, but crucial to Cadillac who has little global presence.   Plus the A8 platform is used for Bentley which has crazy markup, so they get to recycle some engineering there.

     

    Halo effect does work, and is needed not only to sell more of your lower end cars, but also to expand globally.    Cadillac needs the Omega car, but if they botch it and it is one and done product it won't have the desired Halo effect.  Whether or not Cadillac can pull off a success here is the question, but I look forward to seeing the debut.

     

     

    Do you know how Audi is able to make a profit on those cars?  By "parts-binning" from VW.   But I guess it's okay with you when VAG does it.

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    The Omega platform is not going to be used on just a single car.

     

    That fact wouldn't justify the tirade, would it? Then the tirade would be Cadillac is being diluted.

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    Do you know how Audi is able to make a profit on those cars?  By "parts-binning" from VW.   But I guess it's okay with you when VAG does it.

     

    The A8 though has a V8 and a W12, neither of which are found in any of the VW cars, they are found in Bentleys, though modified.  The A8 interior is pretty good too, also not found in a VW.  It does ride on the VW modular platform thing, but the A8 is aluminum unlike other Audi or VW models.  So there is a lot to make the A8 unique, but it is still outsold by the Panamera, 7-series and LS460 most months, and the S-class outsells it like 5 to 1.

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    I think Cadillac would expect to move at least 2,000 a month of these.  And I do think it wouldn't be hard, if they keep a version of it accessible price wise, and if the interior is truly ON PAR with a German car.  Also they can distinguish the LTS with a v8.

     

    ATS is botched due to small back seat and bland dash.  CTS is botched a bit due to some funny styling and questionable pricing.  LTS ont he upper end would allow Caddy to move some ATS and CTS pricing down also, get some more volume back there.

    2000 a month?   That is what the ATS and XTS sell per month.  The S-class sells 2,000 per month in the USA.  Keep in mind that Audi, Lexus and BMW all have starting prices in the $70k range to undercut the S-class class and they still manage to sell about 500 each per month, 1,000 on a good month.  Cadillac can't undercut the A8 or 7-series in price, otherwise they'll be with the Hyundai Equus in price, and that is not where they should be.

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    No way in hell is Cadillac looking for 2000 units/mnth. Nor should they. Like I said, there should be 'no comment' if asked for sales goals.

    Cadillac is not interested in playing 'one-up' on sales numbers, nor should they. BMW & MB MUST in order to survive, hence the push into FWD appliances. 

     

    If one subscribes to the theory that halo cars work downmarket to move cheap stuff, the inverse must be true; that cheap stuff will have a 'reverse halo' effect on the high end stuff.

     

    -- -- --

    If Cadillac brought out a 4-dr hardtop version of the Ciel & named it "Fleetwood', that would be just about perfect IMO.

    Edited by balthazar
    • Upvote 1

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    Do you know how Audi is able to make a profit on those cars? By "parts-binning" from VW. But I guess it's okay with you when VAG does it.

    The A8 though has a V8 and a W12, neither of which are found in any of the VW cars, they are found in Bentleys, though modified. The A8 interior is pretty good too, also not found in a VW. It does ride on the VW modular platform thing, but the A8 is aluminum unlike other Audi or VW models. So there is a lot to make the A8 unique, but it is still outsold by the Panamera, 7-series and LS460 most months, and the S-class outsells it like 5 to 1.

    You and your wandering goal posts. Audi doesn't sell 1.4 million A8s, they sell 1.4 million of their entire model line. They make a profit on it by snatching parts off of VWs.

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    I know they sell 1.4 million cars in the whole line, that is what I said, although this year it looks like they are on pace for 1.6 million.  I also said the A8 is a weak seller, Audi lives on the volume of the cars below the A6 in most parts of the world and the A6 in China sells well.  The A6 was the number 1 selling luxury car in China in 2012, they sold 138,000 of them.  They are now selling about 14,000 A6's per month in China.

     

    The A8 on the other hand is pretty much a non-factor in most parts of the world, China is its best market too with 18,500 sold in 2012.   But in the USA the A8 sells about 5,000 cars a year, and in Europe they are down from 10,700 per year in 2006 to just 5,400 last year (financial crisis I suppose).  I'm sure the A8 has a decent profit margin on it because they do rip parts of other VW products, mainly the A6.

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    Again, why is A6 coming in LTS topic? SMK, if you do not have anything valuable and substantial to add, do not hijack the thread.

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    So back to the LTS (which is a horrible name if they really use that) does anyone think it will have a new engine?  My guess is 3.6 twin turbo V6 base and some optional supercharged Corvette engine with 550 hp for a V-sport model.

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    There's the twin-turbo 4.5 liter that was featured in the El Miraj. 500hp/500lb-ft

    I remember that, but they also gave almost no specifics on that engine, I think it was more a hypothetical engine.  I wonder if they will actually build an all new V8.  Cadillac ought to make a 3.0 liter straight six turbo based on the 2.0T, but that would probably be more suited for an ATS or CTS, it might not be enough for a base engine for the LTS.  Even though a lot of the other guys have a 3 liter six as the best engine in their flagships, I think Cadillac has to go bigger than them.

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    It drives, but they could have put a 3.6 V6 in the concept car.  I haven't seen any pictures with the hood open or where they detail the engine.  Plus what a concept car has isn't what a production car will have.  I think though what they release next April will be near production ready, so time will tell.

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    LTS, REALLY? Come on GM, Time to use the names that truly drive prestige. The Top of the line should be an Eldorado, Fleetwood or De Ville

     

    Even GM Insider News states how much they hate the 3 letter BS.

    It's a boring name, sounds like a trim level, like Chevy's LTZ...'Fleetwood Brougham' would be a much better name, IMO.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    Yes, it would be ideal for Cadillacs to actually have names again, but there is a reason for this.  Names do not always translate globally.  Think about it: China is a bigger luxury car market than the USA.  A name for a model may not always work in that case.  Moreover, NONE of the luxury marques use names on their models, and have not do so for a long time.

     

    Besides, the old names may not be the best way forward.  What new names would you recommend instead?

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    Having difficulty getting behind the above theory. No manufacturers change their BRAND name in China, do they?
    If a Chinese consumer can handle 'mercedes-Benz' they should be able to handle 'Fleetwood'.

    Or in the worst case, just use an alpha-numeric for China alone, and a name everywhere else.

     

     

    When Lamborghini went to China, their model was dubbed the "Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SuperVeloce China Limited Edition".

    Edited by balthazar

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    Having difficulty getting behind the above theory. No manufacturers change their BRAND name in China, do they?

    If a Chinese consumer can handle 'mercedes-Benz' they should be able to handle 'Fleetwood'.

    Or in the worst case, just use an alpha-numeric for China alone, and a name everywhere else.

     

     

    When Lamborghini went to China, their model was dubbed the "Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SuperVeloce China Limited Edition".

     

    WOW, Can you say a mouth full? What marketing moron chose that crazy long name.

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