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    GM and Honda Will Codevelop Affordable EVs Targeting the World’s Most Popular Vehicle Segments

      General Motors (NYSE: GM) and Honda (NYSE: HMC) today announced plans to expand the two companies’ relationship to a new chapter by codeveloping a series of affordable electric vehicles based on a new global architecture using next-generation Ultium battery technology.

    Just as GM and Toyota worked together in bringing us the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix, GM and Honda now plan to bring us a series of affordable EVs targeting the world's most popular vehicle segment, SUVs. To quote Doug Parks, GM executive VP, Global Product Development, Purchasing and Supply Chain.

     “Our plans include a new all-electric product for North America positioned at a price point lower than the upcoming Chevrolet Equinox EV, building on the 2 million units of EV capacity the company plans to install by the end of 2025.”

    • New EV series planned to go on sale in 2027 starting in North America
    • Honda and GM collaboration designed to enable global production of millions of EVs
    • Companies will explore opportunities for advanced battery collaboration

    The crossover segment is the largest in the world with an annual volume exceeding 13 million vehicles. By standardization of equipment, processes to achieve world-class quality, higher throughput and greater affordability, GM and Honda believe they can deliver a bigger portfolio of EVs to the global market.

    GM is already working on new battery technologies for the Ultium platform like Lithium-metal, Silicon and Solid-state batteries along with production methods that can quickly be used to improve and update battery cell manufacturing processes. Honda is making progress on its all-solid-state battery technology which Honda has stated is a core element of future EVs. Honda has established a demonstration line in Japan for all-solid-state batteries and is working on the mass-production line.

    GM and Honda will share their technologies, design and manufacturing strategies to deliver affordable, desirable EVs on a Global scale starting with North America, South America and China. Honda and GM both believe this mutual work together will allow the companies to reach their carbon neutral goals faster.

    To quote Shinji Aoyama, Honda Senior Managing Executive Officer: 

    "The progress we have made with GM since we announced the EV battery development collaboration in 2018, followed by co-development of electric vehicles including the Honda Prologue, has demonstrated the win-win relationship that can create new value for our customers,” 

    “This new series of affordable EVs will build on this relationship by leveraging our strength in the development and production of high quality, compact class vehicles.”

    Honda joined GM's EV battery module development efforts in 2018, then in 2020 Honda and GM announced plans to co-develop two EVs, Honda Prologue and the Acura's first EV SUV to be announced soon. The companies have expanded this working relationship as they have their ongoing relationship with Cruise and are working together on the development of the Cruise Origin, one of the first purpose-built fully autonomous vehicles designed for driverless ride-hail and delivery.

    One could say the future looks bright for GM and Honda on the Ultium platform.

    GM and Honda Will Codevelop Affordable EVs Targeting the World’s Most Popular Vehicle Segments

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    7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Putting your 'class leading' powertrain under your competition's vehicles will only harm GM.  It's a very poor decision, long-term.

    Competing companies have been doing this for decades without negative effects. I see no issue here. 

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    I know Lincoln used a BMW diesel in the '70s. The toyoter 86 has a Subaru engine... but these are both niche sub-segments.
    A -say- compact CUV has a huge potential volume in comparison.

    What are some other examples?

    - - - - -
    I see an issue once an 'Ultium Equinox' and an 'Ultium CR-V' (or whatever) are in the same segment/space, that whereas Utium could have swayed the sale to GM... instead it will go to Honda. I mean; that's GOING to happen, and that's a lost sale to GM.

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    22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I know Lincoln used a BMW diesel in the '70s. The toyoter 86 has a Subaru engine... but these are both niche sub-segments.
    A -say- compact CUV has a huge potential volume in comparison.

    What are some other examples?

    - - - - -
    I see an issue once an 'Ultium Equinox' and an 'Ultium CR-V' (or whatever) are in the same segment/space, that whereas Utium could have swayed the sale to GM... instead it will go to Honda. I mean; that's GOING to happen, and that's a lost sale to GM.

    Not so long ago, the Saturn Vue used the Honda built 3.5L V6 and I guarantee you that most buyers were not even aware of it when they bought. There are plenty of other examples of this but that is the first one that came to my mind. Ford and GM co-opted the 10 speed transmission that is in their current autos and trucks. How many buyers are even aware of any of these things? Not many so save for the car nuts here, it is (again) a non-issue.

    Edited by surreal1272
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    I believe singular engines here isn't a direct parallel (despite me bringing that example up).

    Ultium (according to GM) will power ALL their products at some point ("soon"), and it would empower GM sales to maintain all Ultium production for themselves - they should 'shut honda out' if honda has no suitable competition.  There's also a question of having suitable volume/supply for GM in this era.  GM has ONE vehicle currently out on Ultium, and they're already agreeing to sell the powertrain to a competitor.

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    19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I believe singular engines here isn't a direct parallel (despite me bringing that example up).

    Ultium (according to GM) will power ALL their products at some point ("soon"), and it would empower GM sales to maintain all Ultium production for themselves - they should 'shut honda out' if honda has no suitable competition.  There's also a question of having suitable volume/supply for GM in this era.  GM has ONE vehicle currently out on Ultium, and they're already agreeing to sell the powertrain to a competitor.

    You're right. you're always right Balth. WTF do I know? I yield. Just skip the fact that said platform won't be in anything by Honda until at least 2027 and ignore what I just said about the average customer not knowing or much less caring about such things, you are always right.

     

    And here I thought SMK was the skilled one at cherry picking, bar moving, and creating phantom issues that only HE thinks are issues. 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    How many products will GM have running Ultium before Honda gets it in 2027 to use in their vehicles?  More importantly, how soon will GM products using Ultium be available at somewhat affordable prices?

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    I just see a potential for a huge competitive advantage were GM to start mass, great-range affordable Ultium BE vehicles and across the street; honda is still pushing IC civics CR-Xs. 

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    57 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I just see a potential for a huge competitive advantage were GM to start mass, great-range affordable Ultium BE vehicles and across the street; honda is still pushing IC civics CR-Xs. 

    That advantage will still be there. Not sure what part of “2027” you are not getting here. GM has a dozen or so models planned before then and this deal will greatly reduce costs, yet another common practice amongst carmakers seeking mutually beneficial deals. Like I said, a non-issue. 

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    @balthazar @surreal1272 @riviera74 One of the benefits of this is that GM was already down the rabbit hole of Lithium-Ion batteries for the Ultium produced autos and Honda had already started work on the all-solid-state batteries of which GM is now able to use as the 2nd generation Ultium battery pack. This co-development is a good thing as GM gets to use Honda engineered all-solid-state batteries and Honda gets access to electric motors / Ultium Platform to eventually get their EVs going.

    I DOUBT many Honda owners would switch as that Lemming pool seems to be hung up on Honda generic appliances, not saying that some might not be swayed to buy GM, but when I talk with Honda and Acura owners, I have rarely heard anyone say they would buy from GM.

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    25 minutes ago, David said:

    @balthazar @surreal1272 @riviera74 One of the benefits of this is that GM was already down the rabbit hole of Lithium-Ion batteries for the Ultium produced autos and Honda had already started work on the all-solid-state batteries of which GM is now able to use as the 2nd generation Ultium battery pack. This co-development is a good thing as GM gets to use Honda engineered all-solid-state batteries and Honda gets access to electric motors / Ultium Platform to eventually get their EVs going.

    I DOUBT many Honda owners would switch as that Lemming pool seems to be hung up on Honda generic appliances, not saying that some might not be swayed to buy GM, but when I talk with Honda and Acura owners, I have rarely heard anyone say they would buy from GM.

    All of this because somehow it has never occurred to Balth that GM is well aware of the very thing he thinks is an issue. They are not going to do something like this if they thought it would put them at a competitive disadvantage. That would be simply asinine logic to have otherwise. 

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    58 minutes ago, David said:

    I DOUBT many Honda owners would switch as that Lemming pool seems to be hung up on Honda generic appliances, not saying that some might not be swayed to buy GM, but when I talk with Honda and Acura owners, I have rarely heard anyone say they would buy from GM.

    Kind of in the same manner say, you or Balth, wouldn't be caught dead in a European car...or anything that isn't GM?

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    3 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Ultium (according to GM) will power ALL their products at some point ("soon"), and it would empower GM sales to maintain all Ultium production for themselves - they should 'shut honda out' if honda has no suitable competition.  There's also a question of having suitable volume/supply for GM in this era.  GM has ONE vehicle currently out on Ultium, and they're already agreeing to sell the powertrain to a competitor.

    I would guess that being able to scale up for multiple vehicles (GM and Honda) would also help bring down some of the costs, being able to amortize across a lot more units. 

    Regardless if a Honda or GM sells, Both get a bit of the pie. I'm not sure why this is a bad thing.

    Two heads are always better than one.

    3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    and ignore what I just said about the average customer not knowing or much less caring about such things, you are always right.

    What's funny, is that sounds exactly like something he would have said. 

    "The customer doesn't care if X engine is in XYZ vehicle, they just want it to work right and get the from A to B". 

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    25 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I would guess that being able to scale up for multiple vehicles (GM and Honda) would also help bring down some of the costs, being able to amortize across a lot more units. 

    Regardless if a Honda or GM sells, Both get a bit of the pie. I'm not sure why this is a bad thing.

    From a R&D standpoint, that's true. 

    But obviously the margin on a complete vehicle will be more than on one component of such.  Then there's the tactical advantage of 'that Buick Encore has a 320 mile range, but the Honda CR-V only goes 200 miles; let's go check out Buick'.

    Changing a hardcore loyalist's opinion is commonly futile, but there ARE 'open-minded' consumers out there, and electrification presents a 'ground floor' where a number of consumers are  going to 'reset' their biases.  Look no further than the adoption of Tesla. 

    * Not that folk were biased against Tesla, but it was an outsider that's made significant inroads among consumers.

    - - - - -
    I'm not approaching this as 'consumers care/don't care who made the powertrain', but as 'GM has a strongly competitive BE platform... and honda doesn't'.

    Edited by balthazar
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    Sounds like this isn't that much different than other joint ventures that have been common with automakers for years---different automakers sharing a platform or sharing dirty bits or jointly developing a platform or dirty bits. 

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    2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    Sounds like this isn't that much different than other joint ventures that have been common with automakers for years---different automakers sharing a platform or sharing dirty bits or jointly developing a platform or dirty bits. 

    Not according to Balth. Apparently it’ll be the end of GM if they do what they’ve been doing for decades lol. 

    3 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I'm not approaching this as 'consumers care/don't care who made the powertrain', but as 'GM has a strongly competitive BE platform... and honda doesn't

    And that is why you apparently don’t get it. 

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    So... I don't 'get' how automakers compete with each other, and I claimed 'the end is nigh for GM' while I was at it.

    Interesting interpretation.

    - - - - -
    Robert - have any cross-corporate engine-sharing examples you can think of?

    Edited by balthazar
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    ^^^

    Saturn Redline V6 was a 3.5 liter Honda V6

    Pontiac Vibe had a Toyota 1.8 liter 4 cylinder

    mid '80s Chevrolet Nova had a Toyota 1.6 liter 4 cylinder

    Toyota 86 has a Subaru 2.4 liter flat 4 cylinder

    this generation Toyota Supra has a 3.0 liter inline 6 from BMW

    Lotus Elise uses a Toyota 1.8 liter 4 cylinder

    Lotus Evora uses a Toyota 3.5 liter V6

    McLaren F1 used a 6 liter BMW V12

    Aston Martin uses AMG engines. V12s and V8s.  I dont remember what models...

    Im sure there are other examples. These are from the top of my head that I know about. 

     

    Honda does not have any EV platforms. Honda could just as easily partner up with another manufacturer that could use the R&D money and engineering sharing that has a platform, maybe BMW, maybe Mercedes, maybe Ford or Stellantis or even Toyota.  (Toyota has been known to help fellow Japanese car makers...like Mazda) and GM could just as easily lose out to (sales)  Honda in the long run anyway...

    Might as well partner up, share costs, use Honda brains AND money and sell affordable EVs world wide.

    GM may have needed solid state battery tech. Or at least to share R&D costs for solid state tech...

    If GM (and Honda) is to sell affordable EVs, for real, to customers, because as we know EV production is expensive and selling high priced EVs to compensate the costs is not viable as the majority of car owners are not of the wealthy type..then this way is the way. 

    Dont partner up with Honda, Honda will partner up with another, and lose out on potential sales with Honda as your rival..

    Partner up with Honda, share costs and engineering, and lose out on potential sales to Honda, but as your partner... Big difference.  

     

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    4 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I'm not approaching this as 'consumers care/don't care who made the powertrain', but as 'GM has a strongly competitive BE platform... and honda doesn't'.

    The above is what you said, clearly separated from the rest of your statement @balthazar and I stand by what I said. You can’t simply ignore the consumer factor just because it doesn’t align with the rest of your argument. “The end is nigh” is obvious sarcasm and does not change my core point. 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    6 hours ago, David said:

    I DOUBT many Honda owners would switch as that Lemming pool seems to be hung up on Honda generic appliances, not saying that some might not be swayed to buy GM, but when I talk with Honda and Acura owners, I have rarely heard anyone say they would buy from GM.

     

    And why should they buy GM?

    Lemming pool?

    Generic appliances? 

    All three questions and Im gonna bash GM defending Honda.

    Yes...Honda builds generic shyte.  As does GM.  One generic appliance vehicle from GM is no better or worse than from Honda. 

    GM HAD a lemming pool of rabid fanbois. GM pissed that away. GM has tried to get them back. Honda invited them in and these folk have not looked back. Dont blame Honda lemmings. Blame GM corporate big wigs for phoquing it up.

    Yes. GM is no longer THAT GM anymore.  But its too damned bad if Honda fanbois stay with Honda.

    But the thing that bothers me most about that quote of yours and Balthy's about not sharing with Honda....

    Honda has GREAT engineers. 

    Being partnered with Honda is an ASSET for GM. And obviously vice versa. Honda has no EV platforms. They could engineer them. They may not have the cash to do so. 

    HOWEVER, Honda engineers will work with GM engineers when these Ultium platforms become available to them and when enough Honda EVs by Ultium are sold to Honda customer's....Honda engineers could work with GM engineers to IMPROVE upon future Ultium platforms.

    Honda has a wide wide wide engineering field.   It was smart for GM to partner up with Honda...

    Honda 

    &honda products | Roger Mader

     

    Agregati za struju i pumpe za vodu povoljno Beograd |

    Honda Power Products : Honda Motor Co.,Ltd.

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    It's a good idea to try to team up and share cost, most car companies do something like that.

    The market needs EVs that aren't $50 or $100k, but I still wonder when we'll see "affordable" EV's as the battery cost is still around $100 per kWh or maybe a little more.

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    17 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Honda has no EV platforms. They could engineer them. They may not have the cash to do so. 

    Sometimes - that's the way the cookie crumbles in commerce. 
     

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    This chart is from the following story: GM’s Ultium Electric Car Platform Technology: Everything You Need to Know (motortrend.com)

    Which is based on GM's own web site: Committing to an All-Electric Future | General Motors (gm.com)

    image.png

    Yet is it not that GM wants to make money from selling their tech also, not just manufacturing? If GM is to get everyone into an EV, then having other auto companies use the Ultium Platform is a must.

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    ^^^

    Saturn Redline V6 was a 3.5 liter Honda V6

    Pontiac Vibe had a Toyota 1.8 liter 4 cylinder

    mid '80s Chevrolet Nova had a Toyota 1.6 liter 4 cylinder

    Toyota 86 has a Subaru 2.4 liter flat 4 cylinder

    this generation Toyota Supra has a 3.0 liter inline 6 from BMW

    Lotus Elise uses a Toyota 1.8 liter 4 cylinder

    Lotus Evora uses a Toyota 3.5 liter V6

    McLaren F1 used a 6 liter BMW V12

    Aston Martin uses AMG engines. V12s and V8s.  I dont remember what models...

    Im sure there are other examples. These are from the top of my head that I know about. 

     

    Honda does not have any EV platforms. Honda could just as easily partner up with another manufacturer that could use the R&D money and engineering sharing that has a platform, maybe BMW, maybe Mercedes, maybe Ford or Stellantis or even Toyota.  (Toyota has been known to help fellow Japanese car makers...like Mazda) and GM could just as easily lose out to (sales)  Honda in the long run anyway...

    Might as well partner up, share costs, use Honda brains AND money and sell affordable EVs world wide.

    GM may have needed solid state battery tech. Or at least to share R&D costs for solid state tech...

    If GM (and Honda) is to sell affordable EVs, for real, to customers, because as we know EV production is expensive and selling high priced EVs to compensate the costs is not viable as the majority of car owners are not of the wealthy type..then this way is the way. 

    Dont partner up with Honda, Honda will partner up with another, and lose out on potential sales with Honda as your rival..

    Partner up with Honda, share costs and engineering, and lose out on potential sales to Honda, but as your partner... Big difference.  

     

    The one that always stuck in my mind and I did like the auto but fit was tight for my size was the original Taurus SHO with a Yamaha V6. That auto Rocked!

    image.pngTaurus-SHO-V6-750x400.gif

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