Agree that consumers are confused...really dislike the car maker in the example given.

I can see how they would be.  After 33 years of driving, I don't need this shit in a car. 

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

I can see how they would be.  After 33 years of driving, I don't need this $h! in a car. 

I am sure people said same thing when automakers started using seat belts and air bags ...

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

I can see how they would be.  After 33 years of driving, I don't need this shit in a car. 

I really want adaptive cruise control in my next car.  It is nearly impossible to search for on the used car aggregators like AutoTrader.com because there is such inconsistent use in the term.  

I don't use cruise control, so I'm not sure the advantage of adaptive..maybe in heavy traffic freeway driving with lots of stop and go? 

Also, the point of this that every automaker calls these systems differently.  It really is confusing.

Just now, Robert Hall said:

I don't use cruise control, so I'm not sure the advantage of adaptive..maybe in heavy traffic freeway driving with lots of stop and go? 

Any situation where the speed of the traffic in front of you may be variable and below the speed you are traveling at.  When I have a car with ACC, I just set the speed to 5 or 10 over the limit and let the predominant traffic speed govern my progress. 

1 minute ago, ykX said:

Also, the point of this that every automaker calls these system differently.  It really is confusing.

yes... that's the problem.  Adaptive Cruise, Active Cruise, Distronic, Intelligent Cruise Control, Sense*.... all the same thing. 

*Sense is the name of a bigger group of options at Honda also, but the Adaptive is called Honda Sense.

I will totally agree that all the various Marketing names is a confusing Shit Storm of WTF for the average driver.

Now the Average driver seems to have gotten dumber and dumber as we have individuals in the various state and federal gov that thinks driving is more of a right than the reality that it is a privilege earned. As such we have a growing group of DMF's that should not even be driving and this has led to the following nanny devices being forced on everyone.

Reality, Let me have the CHOICE to disable this stuff as the computer CANNOT act as fast as the brain in reading all the various issues on the road. There could be a very valid reason for me to drift out of a lane of traffic. I DO NOT want the auto fighting me to put me back in the lane especially if I am avoiding something in the road that the computer does not read properly or understand. Last thing I need is a computer trying to force me to drive over a piece of steel that will damage my auto versus moving out of the lane a bit to avoid it.

These nanny devices need to be optional and not forced on us just like seatbelt laws that penalize you for wearing them yet you find non on the mass transit or school buses and the double standard by the police for not wearing them, talking on a cell phone and playing with their computer. 

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

Reality, Let me have the CHOICE to disable this stuff as the computer CANNOT act as fast as the brain in reading all the various issues on the road.

Reality is that the computer is MUCH FASTER than the human brain.  It just these automotive systems are still far from perfection. 

26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

These nanny devices need to be optional and not forced on us just like seatbelt laws that penalize you for wearing them yet you find non on the mass transit or school buses and the double standard by the police for not wearing them, talking on a cell phone and playing with their computer

School buses have seat belts nowadays.  Also, seat belts saved countless lives, so will these systems.

Also, fatalities on the roads consistently going down compared from 50s and 60s even though there is more and more cars on the road.  Only, because cars become safer.

2 minutes ago, ykX said:

Reality is that the computer is MUCH FASTER than the human brain.  It just these automotive systems are still far from perfection.   

Given how buggy software, is I don't trust computers to completely take control of a car. I work in the software industry, there is a lot of bad code out there and bad programmers... unless systems are built to the level of reliability and quality of NASA space mission systems or airplane auto pilot systems, I wouldn't trust them.   I especially don't trust a bunch of fucking Silicon Valley millennial 'bro-grammers'...

5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Given how buggy software, is I don't trust computers to completely take control of a car. I work in the software industry, there is a lot of bad code out there and bad programmers... unless systems are built to the level of reliability and quality of NASA space mission systems or airplane auto pilot systems, I wouldn't trust them.   I especially don't trust a bunch of [email protected]#king Silicon Valley millennial 'bro-grammers'...

I agree in regards to buggy software. However,  as you said software is flying airplanes and rockets right now.  Eventually, the automakers will have to have same level of software reliability, because lives will depend on that.

4 minutes ago, ykX said:

I agree in regards to buggy software. However,  as you said software is flying airplanes and rockets right now.  Eventually, the automakers will have to have same level of software reliability, because lives will depend on that.

More than lives....once it starts saving insurance companies money..it will be there. The cost of car accidents is often astronomical given injury and suffering costs. Does not take much of a reduction for insurance companies to mandate that this stuff be installed and lobby congress for laws regarding it.

12 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

More than lives....once it starts saving insurance companies money..it will be there. The cost of car accidents is often astronomical given injury and suffering costs. Does not take much of a reduction for insurance companies to mandate that this stuff be installed and lobby congress for laws regarding it.

Very good point, most of the time money talks louder than lives.

@ykX

Correct we can build computers that are faster than the Human brain. Yet working in the Enterprise Storage business with Developers daily and the amount of bugs added into software, I still want my OPTION in regards to which Nanny devices I use.

Yes Seatbelts save lives, but it should still be OPTIONAL. Not enforced fined use. There are times NOT wearing a seatbelt can be safer than wearing it, 4x4 off road is a perfect example. 

Not all buses have seatbelts, none of the school buses or public buses in Washington State have them and they are not mandatory. What state are you in that has seat belts on school buses?

9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

@ykX

 

Yes Seatbelts save lives, but it should still be OPTIONAL. Not enforced fined use. There are times NOT wearing a seatbelt can be safer than wearing it, 4x4 off road is a perfect example. 

Nobody is going to give you a ticket if you not wearing your seat belt off road.

And I think it is good that it is enforced because like you said previously most people irresponsible morons, who would not put seat belts just because they are lazy or forgot.

9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Not all buses have seatbelts, none of the school buses or public buses in Washington State have them and they are not mandatory. What state are you in that has seat belts on school buses?

I live in NJ, both of my kids are in school, elementary and middle, and their buses have seat belts.

The majority of these problems is because people don't read the Car's owner manual and salesman don't explain it correctly.  Again most consumers are the problem.

21 minutes ago, ykX said:

Nobody is going to give you a ticket if you not wearing your seat belt off road.

And I think it is good that it is enforced because like you said previously most people irresponsible morons, who would not put seat belts just because they are lazy or forgot.

I live in NJ, both of my kids are in school, elementary and middle, and their buses have seat belts.

Here in washington, I doubt the forest rangers will bother, but they wrote the law to include on or off road, personal seatbelts must be worn at all times or else you are eligible to be fined.

Glad to hear NJ has seat belts on the school buses, here they do not  but should I think. I would also like to see them on public buses but I doubt that will ever happen.

7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Here in washington, I doubt the forest rangers will bother, but they wrote the law to include on or off road, personal seatbelts must be worn at all times or else you are eligible to be fined.

Glad to hear NJ has seat belts on the school buses, here they do not  but should I think. I would also like to see them on public buses but I doubt that will ever happen.

In NJ seat belt law states:

"Applies to all passengers (including the rear seat), who are at least 8 years of age or at least 57 inches tall, and each driver and front seat passenger of a passenger automobile, operated on a street or highway. All of these occupants are required to wear a properly adjusted and fastened seat belt system."

Off road is not required

Never saw seatbelts in school buses back in the day, I remember reading the theory at the time was thick padded seats were enough for kiddos bouncing around.  

5 hours ago, ykX said:

Reality is that the computer is MUCH FASTER than the human brain.  It just these automotive systems are still far from perfection.

Um...NO!

First of all, a computer...computes. But its because a HUMAN made a program for the computer to compute.

So NO! 

A computer is NOT faster than a human brain.  A human brain designed a code for the computer to follow...

You may be talking about artificial intelligence. And we are not there yet. People in the A.I. business say we are not far off A.I.   They say A.I. will be a thing in the next 20-50 years when computers and robots will be in our lives full with A.I. 

But I STILL do not think autonomous driving will be a thing by then either.

WHY?

Because the human brain is a fantastic thing... It took us 20 000 years to get us where we are. Survival of the fittest and natural selection is the darnedest thing.  

In a normal human, where old age has not deteriorated brain and muscles, where youth may be too foolish and not wise enough...the human eyes, the human brain, the human reflexes, the other human senses,  HUMAN INTUITION and HUMAN INSTINCT, HUMAN PERCEPTION and HUMAN EXPERIENCE all work together almost INSTANTANEOUSLY...and then there is our 20 000 year old adrenaline factor when all that that I just mentioned gets to be magnified by 1000%.   Something that computers do not do! 

You could see this at work if you watch sports.  If you compare passed Olympic triumphs to now, or incredible sports feats. Such as speed skiing, or moguls, or boxing....or football.   When a running back is trying to squeeze through a hole, but two huge guys are blocking his way, then he sees an opening completely on the other side, shifts his body, his weight and then...ZOOM, gets through that tiny opneing that was their for a split second and he is on his way to a touchdown. 

The way a running back processes that info.  All the while trying to receive the football from his QB. Running to the side, front, looking out for holes, looking not to get tackled, pushing away his own teamates and others trying to tackle him. Shifting his weight and his position, all the while remaining on his feet, balancing himself, sprinting all this time. Bouncing off people. Running, jumping, skipping...all this is done with his eyes, his feet, his ears(balance and actually hearing things) and his brain controls all that INSTANTLY!!!

Or a quarter back doing the same thing as that running back. Has to make a split second decision on whether to give the football away to his running back, pass it in the air or run with it when he sees a blitz coming to him...and more often than not, the decision made was a good one as the QB does NOT get sacked, but succeeds in getting a good play done.

An extreme skier, going down a mountain (no trails), like going down a mountain...with just his gut feeling, his athletic prowess and his ability to make a split second decision, to correct his balance, to correct direction...

I could do hockey or baseball analogies too. The thing is, day after day, week after week, year after year, game in and game out, we see athletes do these things...

Its remarkable how fast our brain with our muscles react to the situations that happen in front of us right this second and we make a decision right away and our bodies react to that decision without missing a beat...and we keep our balance, while we throw our balance off kilter, our brain makes the necessary adjustments to land the way we wanna land, whether we wanna land on our bum, on our feet, on our hands, and when we do land, we could bounce back and unto the next split second decision we gotta make. And we continue that cycle until our opponent has made his decisions to stop us...

When mother nature is concerned. Sometimes mother nature gets the best of us...and we die...but sometimes we beat mother nature...as in the extreme skiing example.

What computers may do faster than us, is actually use its computing power to solve an equation, or pump the brakes faster than we can because our leg muscles are not faster than hydraulics...but when split second decisions need to be made, and movement corrrection and reaction need to be made that instant, a trained human being is still  faster than ANY computer out there....20 000 years of evolution will do that...

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I really want adaptive cruise control in my next car.  It is nearly impossible to search for on the used car aggregators like AutoTrader.com because there is such inconsistent use in the term.  

i still haven't tried the adaptive cruise in our van yet.  maybe once weather gets warmer and roads reliably clean i may try it.  I'm not even sure but i wonder if the van has park assist also.  But i am not super trustworthy with that.......

ultimately i think something like Cadillac Super Cruise is where its at.  I can tell you that it would be a godsend for travel on rural interstates.....

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

I will totally agree that all the various Marketing names is a confusing Shit Storm of WTF for the average driver.

Now the Average driver seems to have gotten dumber and dumber as we have individuals in the various state and federal gov that thinks driving is more of a right than the reality that it is a privilege earned. As such we have a growing group of DMF's that should not even be driving and this has led to the following nanny devices being forced on everyone.

Reality, Let me have the CHOICE to disable this stuff as the computer CANNOT act as fast as the brain in reading all the various issues on the road. There could be a very valid reason for me to drift out of a lane of traffic. I DO NOT want the auto fighting me to put me back in the lane especially if I am avoiding something in the road that the computer does not read properly or understand. Last thing I need is a computer trying to force me to drive over a piece of steel that will damage my auto versus moving out of the lane a bit to avoid it.

These nanny devices need to be optional and not forced on us just like seatbelt laws that penalize you for wearing them yet you find non on the mass transit or school buses and the double standard by the police for not wearing them, talking on a cell phone and playing with their computer. 

I have lane keep on both vehicles, and both are turned off 99% of the time.  I could see a benefit to it for some drivers, who drift a lot........lane keep is another one of those things i wouldn't trust in inclement weather.

I like things like blind spot and cross path, i don't really depend on them, but they help assure me sometimes if i feel i am being too aggressive on judging depth.

a couple items i like, rainsense wipers, and auto high beams.  super convenient, and you can shut them off it you want.  but those two aren't really autonomous driving features per se.

the surround view camera is a sweet option to check to see if you have parked well in a parking stall.  a short look on the screen if you're out of whack and need to repark.

11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Um...NO!

First of all, a computer...computes. But its because a HUMAN made a program for the computer to compute.

So NO! 

A computer is NOT faster than a human brain.  A human brain designed a code for the computer to follow...

Computer computes much faster than a human brain.  The fact that the program is written by a human has nothing to do with it.  Modern airplanes, helicopters and missiles  mainly  controlled by a computer which can calculate based on sensors necessary changes and do them in micro seconds.  Human can never be as fast.  Artificial intelligence is a completely different animal, computer can not make DECISIONS yet as fast or as good as human operator. 

9 hours ago, regfootball said:

i still haven't tried the adaptive cruise in our van yet.  maybe once weather gets warmer and roads reliably clean i may try it.  I'm not even sure but i wonder if the van has park assist also.  But i am not super trustworthy with that.......

I used adaptive cruise once when my dad had a loaner loaded Mazda 6.  It actually worked really well on a highway.  You set a distance you want to follow car ahead of you and the car will slow or speed up as necessary.

Lane assist in my experience mostly is just an annoyance. 

16 hours ago, Guest Joe said:

The majority of these problems is because people don't read the Car's owner manual and salesman don't explain it correctly.  Again most consumers are the problem.

Car dealers are a huge problem...they are more worried about selling warranty's and stuff through the F and I guy than selling products. I think it is immoral to force manufacturers to be legally mandated to sell through dealer networks. 

I could see a Tesla esque future from a dealership standpoint. 

58 minutes ago, ykX said:

Computer computes much faster than a human brain. 

That is what I said...

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

First of all, a computer...computes.

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

What computers may do faster than us, is actually use its computing power to solve an equation, or pump the brakes faster than we can because our leg muscles are not faster than hydraulics

58 minutes ago, ykX said:

he fact that the program is written by a human has nothing to do with it.  Modern airplanes, helicopters and missiles  mainly  controlled by a computer which can calculate based on sensors necessary changes and do them in micro seconds.

And yes it does. Our brain is the one that has deciphered to make codes for this computing power. 

Besides, our brain ALSO computes in microseconds.  When we play sports, you think our brain does not use math and compute this mathematical equation in front of us and makes the necessary adjustments to our muscles and reflexes?

Read my examples on my post about sports and then process that info with the examples you gave about the military...

Why we do have computers in the military though?

Because computers DO compute faster than we do and the calculations that they make are more accurate than what humans could do. At a faster rate, and we WILL make errors in adding things up. Stupid mistakes. 

So to eliminate the "human" factor, computers control the missiles and the like.  But make no mistake about it. We could also make those calculations. If we were in control of those devices since the missiles were invented, late 1940s. That we give us 70 years worth of experience that we humans would be able to compute on the fly.  Lots of errors in the process, but in 2019, we would have perfected our formulas to use on the fly...

Remember, we used complex computing tools  and camera lenses to drop bombs in WW2. It was an approximation of where we wanted those bombs to fall. And because we did not want to fail in the mission, we dropped a shyte load of bombs on the targets, but we hit our targets, and the surrounding areas but we did calculate for wind friction, altitude, velocity, gravity, etc...and what we learned from WW2 went on to the codes the computers use today to calculate how the smart missiles and smart bombs would travel and lock on to their target...  

58 minutes ago, ykX said:

Human can never be as fast.

Oh....but we are...

In certain situations. Like sports...or racing other cars on the same track...

We see an an  autonomous Audi  go around a track faster than a normal driver ever could. True.

What we do NOT see however is that the track is PRE-PROGRAMMED in the Audi's computer brain...

A VETERAN race car driver, when he KNOWS that track like the back of his hand, is JUST as fast...

What we do NOT see is that put that autonomous Audi on that track with OTHER HUMAN driven cars, because us humans have one thing that computers will NEVER have a code for, is that we are UNPREDICTABLE...THAT is ONE of our traits of many that makes us human that separates us from the rest of the animal world...

Put that autonomous Audi on a track with other race cars, and that Audi will probably not win...as there are too many factors to compute and that WE have not PROGRAMMED it for...yet pro race car drivers do those mathematical problems every Sunday since the 1940s in NASCAR, or just about 100 years in Daytona...

OUR experience is the same as a computer code...  A computer code that WE INVENTED...

58 minutes ago, ykX said:

The fact that the program is written by a human has nothing to do with it. 

And here it is...

And yes it does as a computer will not perform unless its programmed to do so.   And if there is an error in code. Failure is the result.

When we fail, we also have the capacity to correct the failure almost instantaneously.  THAT is how powerful and fast our brain acts and reacts.   

And we do this because:

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

In a normal human, where old age has not deteriorated brain and muscles, where youth may be too foolish and not wise enough...the human eyes, the human brain, the human reflexes, the other human senses,  HUMAN INTUITION and HUMAN INSTINCT, HUMAN PERCEPTION and HUMAN EXPERIENCE all work together almost INSTANTANEOUSLY...and then there is our 20 000 year old adrenaline factor when all that that I just mentioned gets to be magnified by 1000%.   Something that computers do not do! 

58 minutes ago, ykX said:

Artificial intelligence is a completely different animal, computer can not make DECISIONS yet as fast or as good as human operator. 

And finally, you end up acknowledging what Ive said all along...

@oldshurst442  Your example with autonomous Audi has nothing to do with active safety systems and more to do with auto pilot systems like we see on Tesla and Cadillac.   That is AI systems, and they are still not at the right level of development. 

Also, your examples with sports are irrelevant too.  Fastest human reaction ever recorded is 120 milliseconds, which is extremely fast for a human but extremely slow for a computer.  Computers can react 100 to 1000 times faster.

As was mentioned before, yes, there can be a mistake in a code, and those mistakes will have to be worked out.