Jump to content
  • William Maley
    William Maley

    More Luxury Car Buyers Are Moving to Trucks and SUVs

      American automakers are cleaning up here.

    If you have been following auto sales for the past few years, then you know that SUVs and trucks currently dominate the sales charts partly due to the low gas prices. This is especially true when it comes to the luxury segment, where utility models are eating sedans. But a new report from The New York Times reveals that American automakers are eating the lunches of luxury car manufacturers. 

    According to data from Edmunds, the likes of Ford, Chevrolet, and GMC have seen their share of domestic sales of models with an average price of $60,000 steadily climbing, while luxury brands like Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, and Lexus have been declining. GMC, in particular, has shown the largest growth, accounting 11.3 percent of domestic sales of $60,000-plus models in 2017. Five years ago, the brand only made up 0.1 percent of those sales. A lot of this credit can be laid at the feet of GMC's Denali brands. At a recent investor conference, GM showed data that the Denali line had an average sale price of $56,000 - more than the average price of an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz.

    “This thing is a money machine,” said GM's president Dan Ammann about Denali.

    Over at Ford, more than half of F-150 sales are made up by the Lariat, King Ranch, Raptor models. Only a few years ago, those models made up a third.

    Why are American automakers seeing a massive increase in expensive SUVs and trucks? Part of it comes down to price, but there is also the image.

    “We’ve been taking in Lexuses on trade-ins, BMWs," said Gary Gilchrist, owner of a GMC dealer in Tacoma, Washington.

    “People used to want German cars for the image factor. Now, if you have a Denali, you get that. People turn their heads to look.”

    Source: New York Times



    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments

    I think a lot of the growth is due to pick ups being more and more expensive, and cars in general being more expensive.   BMW and Mercedes have had record sales years the past 4 or so years in the USA, so it isn't like they are losing ground.   25 years ago a Cadillac Eldorado was $32,000, today that is V6 Camry.  

    A lot of people trading luxury sedans are going to luxury SUVs, and the Europeans make a ton of luxury SUVs.  I think the Japanese brands are more behind on this trend other than the Lexus RX going strong.  And for as much money as GME makes on Denali, I bet if Cadillac had all those SUVs they'd be making even more.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    This Denali sales thing with the fact that GMC sold approx 33K versus Cadillac 9K does make one wonder if GM shut down Cadillac, could GMC be their Luxury line, Buick Mid and Chevy Entry and reduce costs?

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    25 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    This Denali sales thing with the fact that GMC sold approx 33K versus Cadillac 9K does make one wonder if GM shut down Cadillac, could GMC be their Luxury line, Buick Mid and Chevy Entry and reduce costs?

    Why didn't they make Cadillac their luxury line in the first place instead of product starving it, and trying to clone BMW sedans?  During the bankruptcy I thought GMC should have become a commercial truck line, sort of like Ram with their vans or the Ford commercial with Transit and F-series and then all the fleet and commercial sales are in one place.  Chevy wouldn't have to do that at all.  And Cadillac could have a big product influx of luxury SUVs.

    But now they are where they are and can't turn back.  Cadillac is a mess, but there is no reason GM couldn't figure out a way to make a base Cadillac SUV the equal price of a loaded Denali.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • Cadillac is a luxury brand, not a full-line manufacturer. Still, they have more model lines today than they had in the 1970s. And the brand has never "cloned" BMW, they've progressed, along with BMW, to where sporty luxury vehicles are today in answer to market trends. So they weren't there first- who cares. By the same token, BMW & MB "cloned" Cadillac's level of tech, amenities and luxury in their interiors since the 1980s. But we've been over that before.

    • GMC, like Ammann said above, is minting money, the margins on pure commercial vehicles is not comparable. Chevy sold 8,348 commercial trucks and 69,164 Express vans, for a total of 77,507 units as pure commercial trucks. It'd take a special kind of idiocy to contemplate dropping GMC's highly profitable and huge volume (560K in 2017) to sell only low-margin commercial trucks of 80K units. GMC doesn't WANT to "turn back". And Cadillac is adding more SUVs just like every other luxury brand over the last 5 years is doing.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    53 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    • Cadillac is a luxury brand, not a full-line manufacturer. Still, they have more model lines today than they had in the 1970s. And the brand has never "cloned" BMW, they've progressed, along with BMW, to where sporty luxury vehicles are today in answer to market trends. So they weren't there first- who cares. By the same token, BMW & MB "cloned" Cadillac's level of tech, amenities and luxury in their interiors since the 1980s. But we've been over that before.

    • GMC, like Ammann said above, is minting money, the margins on pure commercial vehicles is not comparable. Chevy sold 8,348 commercial trucks and 69,164 Express vans, for a total of 77,507 units as pure commercial trucks. It'd take a special kind of idiocy to contemplate dropping GMC's highly profitable and huge volume (560K in 2017) to sell only low-margin commercial trucks of 80K units. GMC doesn't WANT to "turn back". And Cadillac is adding more SUVs just like every other luxury brand over the last 5 years is doing.

    GMC sells 29% Denali, so that would be 162,000 in 2017.  If you factor out Sierra's let's just say it is 100,000 SUVs.  That is 100,000 SUVs that could have been sold as a Cadillac at a $5-10,000 premium over what they got for a Denali. 

    I did during bankruptcy think if GMC didn't go the commercial route, they should go 100% Denali, and that Denali should be their standard car to distance itself from Chevy, so a Terrain would base at $35k, Acadia base at $45k, and Yukon be priced equal to Escalade at $80k base and then you can offer an Ultimate package or something to jack the price up more.  Or make Denali trim and price the standard, and offer a performance trim like V-series, and get a Corvette V8 in the Terrain, because the Germans will sell you a 500 hp V8 in an SUV the size of the Terrain.

    Edited by smk4565

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    GMC sells 29% Denali, so that would be 162,000 in 2017...

    I did during bankruptcy think if GMC didn't go the commercial route, they should go 100% Denali, and that Denali should be their standard car to distance itself from Chevy...

    Your suggestions for General Motors are always way out in the weeds. 'GMC should have gone 100% commercial' (and cut sales by a half million) 'or 100% Denali' (and cut sales by 70% by eliminating the non-Denali buyers). Wacked.

    GMC is doing EXCELLENT at 'differentiating themselves from Chevrolet' according to your #1 metric: SALES. Imagine if MB created another brand called 'Daimler', which was some different panels, grilles, trimwork, a couple different models, and earned another 550,000 sales at higher ATPs than the Mercedes line. That's what GMC is doing!

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 hours ago, NINETY EIGHT REGENCY said:

    Chevrolet has a response to GMC Denali sub brand:

     

     

     

    Nice auto's but not equal to a Denali especially in the looks department. These are too bland to say Luxury or even mid luxury IMHO.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    Your suggestions for General Motors are always way out in the weeds. 'GMC should have gone 100% commercial' (and cut sales by a half million) 'or 100% Denali' (and cut sales by 70% by eliminating the non-Denali buyers). Wacked.

    GMC is doing EXCELLENT at 'differentiating themselves from Chevrolet' according to your #1 metric: SALES. Imagine if MB created another brand called 'Daimler', which was some different panels, grilles, trimwork, a couple different models, and earned another 550,000 sales at higher ATPs than the Mercedes line. That's what GMC is doing!

    But GMC doesn't really add 550,000 new sales, it just takes 550,000 sales off Chevy, which is why Ford outsells Chevy.  Granted it takes 550,000 Chevy sales and ups the transaction price which is a profit maker.  But what if Cadillac had another 250,000 sales (assuming you take out the pickups and vans at GMC) if they could move those people up to Cadillac and get even bigger prices.

    GM actually does a really good job with the GMC-Buick sales channel, moving people up from Chevy to there, because I suspect a lot of Buick/GMC buyers are long time GMers that want something nicer than their old Malibu or Equinox but aren't going to buy a luxury brand, and GM has always been a strong SUV company.  

    Where it falls down is getting those Buick-GMC people into Cadillac or getting people from Chevy to Cadillac.  A Cadillac should be head and shoulders better than any Denali product, those Denali buyers should dream of having a Cadillac, heck Corvette buyers should want to upgrade to a Cadillac sports car.

    Daimler doesn't need another brand, they have the Maybach and AMG sub-brands like Denali is, and they can go from entry lux to and move people all the way up to $200,000+ vehicles and million dollar hyper car.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    But GMC doesn't really add 550,000 new sales, it just takes 550,000 sales off Chevy, which is why Ford outsells Chevy.  Granted it takes 550,000 Chevy sales and ups the transaction price which is a profit maker.  But what if Cadillac had another 250,000 sales...

    Once again- this makes no sense. Why don't buyers just buy all Chevrolet trucks if 'GMC is taking away from Chevy'? Your allegation -if true- would take care of itself and GMC would dwindle to nothing and be shuttered. Must be something there resonating with buyers.

    But Cadillac is not looking for another 250K sales of trucks/SUVs here, that volume is beyond their mission. So the 'what if' is 'Cadillac doesn't need it', just like mercedes doesn't need another brand.

    And BTW, I've brought this up before but once again it's pertinent : Daimler should have made their commercial vehicles all 'Freightliner' when they had the chance, but "it's too late to turn back now".

    GM actually does a really good job with the GMC-Buick sales channel...  Where it falls down is getting those Buick-GMC people into Cadillac or getting people from Chevy to Cadillac.

    Look at all the trouble Daimler has moving CLA buyers up to the s-class. Same scenario.

    You labor under the erroneous assumption these 2 corporations (GM & daimler) are vastly different, when they are shockingly close in many ways.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    GM closed Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer and is selling more cars with 4 brands than they did with 8.  If GMC was gone, some sales would go away but a lot would stay at GM.  But if the argument is the more GMC Denali GM sells the better because it is a cash cow, the same needs to hold true for Cadillac.  Because in theory, a base model Cadillac should have the same profit margin as a Denali.

    But to the point of this article about trucks getting a bigger share of $60k plus sales that is mostly due to inflation.  You could say Toyota has a bigger share of $30k plus sales than they did 10 years ago, and they didn’t move up market, cars just got crazy expensive.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    GM closed Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer and is selling more cars with 4 brands than they did with 8.

    They sold 3.0 million in 2017 with 4 brands, and 9 million in 2007 with 8. They buyers didn't stay when those other brands were shuttered. And your theory about base model Cadillacs (Cadillac doesn't sell ANY cars at base MSRP, BTW) selling at the same margin as GMC Denalis has not even been conceived by anyone else. Again I point you to your pet brand- does the base e-class have the same margin as the C63? How is this any sort of 'theory'?

    Quote

    But to the point of this article about trucks getting a bigger share of $60k plus sales that is mostly due to inflation.

    Read it again.

    Edited by balthazar

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    So where did the other six million in sales go?  Hyundai/Kia? Toyota or Honda?

    As for the sales figures in this post, Cadillac needs a Enclave-sized CUV to go along with the Escalade STAT.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    54 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    They sold 3.0 million in 2017 with 4 brands, and 9 million in 2007 with 8. They buyers didn't stay when those other brands were shuttered. And your theory about base model Cadillacs (Cadillac doesn't sell ANY cars at base MSRP, BTW) selling at the same margin as GMC Denalis has not even been conceived by anyone else. Again I point you to your pet brand- does the base e-class have the same margin as the C63? How is this any sort of 'theory'?

    Read it again.

    I mean a Cadillac XT4 should have the same or better margins than a terrain Denali, an XT5 the same or better margin as the Acadia Denali, etc.  if all these crossovers were at Cadillac GM would make more money.  Instead they develop ed 2 mid-level crossover lines that overlap and starved the luxury line.  

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    So what did you mean when you said 'GM is selling more with 4 less brands' -- that they were actually selling way less? :rolleyes:

    Quote

     if all these crossovers were at Cadillac GM would make more money. 


    GM is already making Daimler money on far lower margins. But no responsible manager would flood Cadillac with a dozen more CUV/SUVs ("all these"), it's lunacy. BMW isn't making a profit on the X4 or X6- just piling model after model on doesn't make for a good business case. Maybe some years ago when everyone from Bentley to Lamborghini wasn't jumping on the GM bandwagon (Suburban : 1935), but the competition in the CUV/SUV segment is now as stiff as it ever was in the sedan segment. Needs to be done right.

    Cadillac's XT5 is a smash hit in a segment they've never been in before. Next up: XT4- let's see how it comes out of the oven.

    Edited by balthazar

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    GM sold 2.2 million cars in the USA in 2010 and they sold 3.0 million in the USA in 2017.  Worldwide they grew too but because China grew a ton, I used USA numbers because Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer were sold here.

    XT4 should rob a lot of sales off the Envision and Terrain, but that is a good thing, they will make more money on a Cadillac.  But if Cadillac can’t sell more $60,0000+ vehicles than GMC, why is Cadillac still here?

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    GM sold 2.2 million cars in the USA in 2010 and they sold 3.0 million in the USA in 2017.

    How did I know you were going to use a year mere months from the globe-wide recession of '08-09?
     

    Quote

    ...if Cadillac can’t sell more $60,0000+ vehicles than GMC, why is Cadillac still here?

    To sell high performance and/or luxury product to buyers wanting a Cadillac, same thing they've done countless times over their 128 year history. Imagine that.

    Edited by balthazar

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    34 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    How did I know you were going to use a year mere months from the globe-wide recession of '08-09?
     

    To sell high performance and/or luxury product to buyers wanting a Cadillac, same thing they've done countless times over their 128 year history. Imagine that.

    In 2005 when there were 17.5 million cars sold in the US, similar to 2016 and 2017, GM sold 4.5 million cars but lost $10 billion dollars.  So that was pointless.   Worldwide in 2006 GM sold 8.97 million cars, vs 7.93 million last year, so down a million, but GM sold 9.6 million cars in 2014 worldwide, after dumping 4 brands.  Their sales are still pretty close with half the brands that they had 10-15 years ago, and most of those brands lost money.

     

    If Cadillac is here to sell high performance luxury product, where is the product?  Crossover is the #1 body style now, I don't see any performance crossovers or even high luxury ones.  And they have 2 performance sedans dying on the vine, no sports cars.  

     

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    They're not here to sell in every segment like a full-line mass-production mainstream corporate manufacturer [does that sound like any other OEM you know of?]

    Their performance-options cars are doing fine; still available & still immensely regarded. BMW just released specs on their new M5, which obviously benchmarked the CTS-V's performance numbers. Next generation is in development now, and the lead there will swap again.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    They're not here to sell in every segment like a full-line mass-production mainstream corporate manufacturer [does that sound like any other OEM you know of?]

    Their performance-options cars are doing fine; still available & still immensely regarded. BMW just released specs on their new M5, which obviously benchmarked the CTS-V's performance numbers. Next generation is in development now, and the lead there will swap again.

    The Genesis G80 outsold the CTS and CT6 last year (individually not combined), I wouldn't say Cadillac is doing fine.  But if you want performance and a crossover, Cadillac is missing the market, they have nothing there, while Audi, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, Land Rover all do.  

    Here is the problem with BMW and Cadillac, they thought the M5 and CTS-V were the ultimate performance sedans, the top performance car of their brands.  They didn't think to make them their mid-level performance sedan, where as Mercedes has decided to go next level:

    Mercedes-AMG-GT-Coupe-Teaser-1.jpg

    And we get to see it in March!  Game on if Cadillac and BMW want to step their game up.  Porsche has the Panamera E-hybrid at the top of their range, but an E63 is as fast as that thing. 

    And AMG is going to use F1 tech in their cars as they move toward electrification.  The perfect item to use would be their electric motor that spins to 50,000 rpm, vs 18,000 rpm on a Tesla Model S and they are tiny, and each one makes 160 hp. One at each wheel and you have a 640 hp EV using hardly any packaging space or weight.  They are going to leave Ferrari in the weeds, let alone the M5.

    mercedes-amg-project-one-powertrain-3-63

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Genesis G80 outsold the CTS and CT6 last year (individually not combined), I wouldn't say Cadillac is doing fine.

    • I would. I'd like to see domestic sales @ 200K as a ceiling. XT4 will put them there after it's first full year. That's why the brand doesn't need any 'CT3' or 'XT2', besides the fact Cadillac shouldn't be so far downmarket.

    • Panamera E sold 18 copies last year, 1 more than the discontinued/leftover Cadillac ELR. It's basically a rumor.

    Quote

    we get to see it in March!

    Everyone already has seen it - it'll look like every other 21 sedans MB has.

    Edited by balthazar
    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Cadillac can go up market,  the XT4 will be sized and priced like Ann a Envision or Terrain Denali, which just gives GM 3 vehicles in the same space.  Granted it is the sweet sport of the market and Cadillac needs a small SUV.  Total mystery to me as to why Cadillac doesn’t have a crossover with a CTS-V engine or an electric crossover.  GM is the Bolt, why can’t they scale that up to a mid-size SUV with double the motors for Cadillac?

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    A CTS-V-engined XT5 would be pretty cool but like all of those hi-po SUVs, they just don't sell (your metric). EV versions are no doubt coming, but customers there are few & far between. Again I mention porsche; they sold 6,713 gas-engined Panamera's in the US last year, and 18 "top of the line" E's. That's 0.002%.

    And THAT'S the answer to your "total mystery" of why there's not an electric Cadillac CUV (yet).

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

     

    Mercedes-AMG-GT-Coupe-Teaser-1.jpg

    What a joke of a picture, move the smoke down to the front of the car and see how well it slips around the whole car and not just on top of the hood. These tests are a joke and waste of time as any car today pretty much slips through the air when you have minimal resistance. Lets see how it really fares when you have the actual front of the car hitting the smoke. Doubt there is that good of a CD and what a tired worn look for a car, this could be any of their products from S-Class down to A-Class they all look the same and are just bland boring overpriced Toyota / Chevrolet equal auto's.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    4 hours ago, dfelt said:

    What a joke of a picture, move the smoke down to the front of the car and see how well it slips around the whole car and not just on top of the hood. These tests are a joke and waste of time as any car today pretty much slips through the air when you have minimal resistance. Lets see how it really fares when you have the actual front of the car hitting the smoke. Doubt there is that good of a CD and what a tired worn look for a car, this could be any of their products from S-Class down to A-Class they all look the same and are just bland boring overpriced Toyota / Chevrolet equal auto's.

    The CLA, S-class and E-class have .23 or .24 drag coefficients.  But what is more important is the potential 800 hp under the hood of that car, and the aluminum and carbon fiber to save weight.  

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The CLA, S-class and E-class have .23 or .24 drag coefficients.  But what is more important is the potential 800 hp under the hood of that car, and the aluminum and carbon fiber to save weight.  

    I will have to call BS on MB drag coefficient numbers. Based on the attached paper, it is very clear that the blunt nose of their auto's cannot slip through the air as well as they state or even you state.

    AutoAerodynamicReduction.pdf

    This PDF shows how you would calculate the CD number and one has to take into account the blunt front end of the auto, not up on top of the hood.

    I did learn a clear explanation as they show with pictures about the changes I have seen on Semi Trailers for the side and back. 

    Cool Info.

     

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I believe the MB pic is merely illustrative, not a candid shot of actual testing.
    That said, it is impossible to tell a given sedan's aero by it's appearance. The number is a cumulation of dozens of tiny tweaks / surfacing.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I believe the MB pic is merely illustrative, not a candid shot of actual testing.
    That said, it is impossible to tell a given sedan's aero by it's appearance. The number is a cumulation of dozens of tiny tweaks / surfacing.

    I understand the point your making. I do believe the blunt front end of an auto though makes a difference in this and that you are right, I think many of the .cd numbers are extremely variable depending on where one measures.

    This site is really cool as they have a full auto testing wind tunnel that does measure everything. The pictures do show that they have a stream of smoke to help identify the over the top measuring much like the MB pic above.

    https://www.horiba-mira.com/our-services/full-scale-wind-tunnel-(fswt)

    HORIBA-MIRA-Full-Scale-Wind-Tunnel?width

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I will have to call BS on MB drag coefficient numbers. Based on the attached paper, it is very clear that the blunt nose of their auto's cannot slip through the air as well as they state or even you state.

    AutoAerodynamicReduction.pdf

    This PDF shows how you would calculate the CD number and one has to take into account the blunt front end of the auto, not up on top of the hood.

    I did learn a clear explanation as they show with pictures about the changes I have seen on Semi Trailers for the side and back. 

    Cool Info.

     

    Why would Mercedes make up cD numbers?  No one is buying cars based on them, they aren't used in any marketing, other than a stat line on a web page after about 50 other measurements and specs are listed.  And nose shape has very little to do with drag, there are a lot of ways to improve or hurt aero.  There are pointy noise cars with bad drag coefficients too.  

    And the drag efficient of the AMG GT sedan doesn't matter, what does matter is it will be faster than an E63 which can already beat an M5.  

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Why would Mercedes make up cD numbers?

    Good question- probably to serve the general corporate narcissistic ideology. Just like this:

    MB cht.png

     

    Car & Driver tested a number of cars in the wind tunnel in 2014 to check the OEM claims. Mercedes claims the CLA is at .23, but it tested at .30. Volt matched it's claim of .28 on the nose, BTW.

    Edited by balthazar

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    21 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Good question- probably to serve the general corporate narcissistic ideology.

    Car & Driver tested a number of cars in the wind tunnel in 2014 to check the OEM claims. Mercedes claims the CLA is at .23, but it tested at .30. Volt matched it's claim of .28 on the nose, BTW.

    I'd like to see C/D test other Mercedes or someone else test a CLA.  I have read the European spec CLA rates a little lower on drag that the American market car, but .30 seems way too high.   I came across a an E-class coupe wind tunnel test where it registered a .24 which is in line with what they claim.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    .30 doesn't seem high to me. It's generally harder to get a shorter vehicle to match the .cd of a longer one, so it goes against that to accept the stumpy CLA is matching the s-class in .cd.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I read the NYT article, the two takeaways are that Mercedes is still #1 market share for vehicles over $60,000.  Ford, GMC and Chevy are 2-4 which shows the huge volume of pickups and Expedition/Tahoes.  When you have 70,000 F150’s sold in a month, that is more units than most car brands, so it really shows the massive volume of pickups sold in this county.

    It does open up the question if more brands should enter pickups, the Tundra needs an overhaul, maybe they should do a Lexus version, maybe Mercedes should bring their truck here.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Noooooo; being #1 isn't a change over previously.  The takeaway is that MB's market share in the above $60K tier is falling.

    F-150 starts @ $27K- far from '$60K'. It's not the volume, per say, the article is talking about market share.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    @smk4565 @balthazar Since you guys both have a different take on a story that neither one of you posted the link too, I decided to hunt it down and see what I could find for everyone's benefit. 

    WOW :o balthazar is right, MB is losing market share especially in the high end auto's to American automakers with luxury packed Trucks & SUV's.

    NYT Story

    Man looking at the German brands for a new ubber luxury auto instead drives off the lot in an $80,000 F150 Raptor and people love it over the German blah brands.

    To Quote the NYT story that SMK only sees as MB being #1:

    "Ford and Chevrolet saw similar but smaller jumps, driven by increasing high-end truck and S.U.V. sales. At the same time, the portion of over-$60,000 sales for luxury brands including Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, Jaguar and Cadillac shrank."

    GrowthChart.jpg

    So many additional stories out there supporting the same findings, German brands are being dumped for American Trucks / SUVs.

    Autoblog Story had this to say that I quote:

    "From 2013 to 2017, the truck category — everything from pickups to minivans — climbed from 30 percent of the market to 41 percent. In January of this year, trucks claimed 66 percent of new vehicle sales. At the milk-and-honey end of profits, GMC alone accounted for 11.3 percent of all vehicle sales over $60,000, not just trucks. That puts the luxury truck maker behind Mercedes-Benz and Ford, The Blue Oval's feasting on Lariat, King Ranch and Raptor versions of the F-150, which make up more than half of that pickup's sales, putting it ahead of Chevrolet, Porsche and Lexus on the high-dollar sales list. The average transaction price of a GMC in Denali trim last year was $56,000; it's easy to see why, when one dealer told the NYT he just swapped a 2012 BMW 550i for a $71,000 GMC Sierra Denali. That truck starts at $52,900."

     

    :scratchchin: Seems Luxury has new leadership coming on, The American Truck / SUV! :metal: 

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    And how many of those $60,000 F-Series are Super duty diesels that aren’t luxury but more commercial use but happen to cost $60k.  Mercedes and BMW sales are rising, it isn’t like they are losing business to pickups.  The pickups just got more expensive.  Porsche sales are at an all time high, but because their share is down they make it seem like Porsche is struggling.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    2017 F-250 Super Duty XL Crew Cab 4x4 Powerstroke started at $47,725, or $13K under the $60K mark. Intentional commercial trucks aren't likely to be highly optioned for work crews, and going with the 6.2L gas engine drops that number by $8800.

    Mercedes lost 6% of the over $60K market share in just 5 years. Next year, Chevy, Ford & GMC are going to surpass MB. Chevrolet & Ford! What an amazing run in the truck segment.

    And yes; I already predicted the x-class is going to come here, and with these charts MB is going to force the x-c into the U.S. luxury truck segment- mark my words. They cannot resist.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    6 hours ago, balthazar said:

    2017 F-250 Super Duty XL Crew Cab 4x4 Powerstroke started at $47,725, or $13K under the $60K mark. Intentional commercial trucks aren't likely to be highly optioned for work crews, and going with the 6.2L gas engine drops that number by $8800.

    Mercedes lost 6% of the over $60K market share in just 5 years. Next year, Chevy, Ford & GMC are going to surpass MB. Chevrolet & Ford! What an amazing run in the truck segment.

    And yes; I already predicted the x-class is going to come here, and with these charts MB is going to force the x-c into the U.S. luxury truck segment- mark my words. They cannot resist.

    Mercedes isn't losing anything though.  Just making up numbers but if 7 years ago there were 1 million cars sold that were over $60,000 and Mercedes had 20%, and now there are 2 million cars sold that cost over $60,000 and Mercedes had 15%, they still sold 300k cars vs 200k.   All this shows is people that were buying pickups in 2010 are still buying pickups and now they pay more for them, part due to inflation, part due to these high trim options.

    And the luxury brands aren't losing to Ford or Chevy, I don't see a $65,000 Fusion or Malibu on sale.  Ford and Chevy can barely give sedans away.  With pick up trucks though, buyers have 5 choices, GM ,Ford, Ram, Toyota, Nissan, and that is about it, in full size or mid-size.  I feel like if Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti, Tesla, etc all entered the luxury pick up market, then they would steal a whole lot of sales. Because why buy a Ford, when you can have a Tesla with 600 hp (assuming they can build it).

    Mercedes probably should dress up the X-class and use the twin turbo V6 and bring it here.  I think they could take the G-wagon's frame and make a pickup if they wanted, and with the 450 hp and 603 hp V8s they have, that would squash an F150 Raptor.  Daimler knows how to build trucks, they are probably the #1 truck maker in the world, but pickup hasn't been a focus.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    If Daimler knows how to build trucks then why bother with rebadging a Nissan? Clearly they know how to build select types of trucks, not all trucks!

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    If Daimler knows how to build trucks then why bother with rebadging a Nissan? Clearly they know how to build select types of trucks, not all trucks!

    Probably all a financial decision... couldn't make a profit with the investment that a new platform would require to build a midsize pickup that is price-competitive in various markets...so they leveraged an existing platform from their partner..and if it tanks in the market, not a big investment loss.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    25 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Probably all a financial decision... couldn't make a profit with the investment that a new platform would require to build a midsize pickup that is price-competitive in various markets...so they leveraged an existing platform from their partner..and if it tanks in the market, not a big investment loss.

    Correct, and that was sort of a payback for the Infiniti Q30/QX30 being built on the A-class platform.

    Bt to dfelt's point, yes Daimler knows how to build certain types of trucks, but they have Freightliner, Western Star, Mercedes heavy duty trucks, off road trucks like the Unimog, etc.  They do have a pretty broad portfolio.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Part of 'knowing how to build a truck', perhaps the #1 crucial factor, is building it at a profit. With the typical markup of mercedes product vs. actual cost to build, half of that is already baked into the equation. Or should be.

    Regardless, the chart shows the trend, and next year when Ford & Chevy can say they sell a higher percentage of luxury vehicles than Daimler, and on the heels of a new downmarket a-class promotional blitz, I think some heads that otherwise wouldn't; will turn.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Perhaps Chevrolet should take over the CTS, CT6 and XT5 since they are so good at luxury sales then.

    What I’d be curious to know is what percentage of Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/etc households also have a pick up truck in them.  Because if these households are buying trucks then Lexus and Mercedes should jump in rather than lose sales.  If 2% of their households buy a truck then don’t bother.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I bet it's most likely a wife with a German luxury vehicle while the husband owns an American truck and I doubt that would change even if Mercedes or Lexus made a truck.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Perhaps Chevrolet should take over the CTS, CT6 and XT5 since they are so good at luxury sales then.

    What I’d be curious to know is what percentage of Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/etc households also have a pick up truck in them.  Because if these households are buying trucks then Lexus and Mercedes should jump in rather than lose sales.  If 2% of their households buy a truck then don’t bother.

    Anecdotes from suburbia---house across the street from me...wife has a late model Audi A4, husband just replaced a Ford Edge with a new Ram 1500.    House 3 drs down, husband has a '15-ish F150, wife has a BMW 3-series.  

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
    • Thanks 2

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    19 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Anecdotes from suburbia---house across the street from me...wife has a late model Audi A4, husband just replaced a Ford Edge with a new Ram 1500.    House 3 drs down, husband has a '15-ish F150, wife has a BMW 3-series.  

    LOL exactly what I said. 

    • Like 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I will say that I have also seen that here in Washington where you are seeing a bigger return of people to American Trucks / SUVs over asian or german brands for the husband but the wife stays with their asian / german brand car.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I mostly wonder how many households with 2 luxury brand cars have a pick up as a 3rd vehicle though.   Because a household with a 328i and a F150 is more middle class America, than reason for Mercedes or Lexus to build a pickup to cater to them.  

    The reason Rolls-Royce and Bentley have SUVs, is because they found the majority of their owners also own an SUV and they didn't want them spending that money on a G-wagen or a Cayenne or Range Rover.   I think if Lexus or Mercedes were going to jump into pickups it would be for similar reason, demand from their own customers for it.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I'm very mixed on this.

    That domestic automaker market share would climb is music to my ears.  However, if the proportion of sedans and coupes shrinks because of this dynamic and there are fewer choices for my automotive needs going forward, then I'm not a happy camper.  I'm guessing I can't have my cake and eat it, too. 

    Even with GM still being the largest domestic automaker, I'm finding the choice of cars they now offer for sale beginning to look more limited, and even dismal. I'm a mid-size and nicely appointed sedan buyer at this point.  And, I'm actually amazed to see myself now driving a sedan, given that I've always had a coupe prior to this.  I will say that I don't miss the huge GM coupe doors that you had to restrain from scraping the cars next to yours in the parking lot.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Alas, coupes have been dying off for the last 20 years or so...only 6 2dr coupes or convertibles left from the domestic 3... 

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I know.

    Three of them are the pony trio and there's three more I'd have to scratch my head about.  Yes ... the Cascada, too.

    Damn, the automotive world needs to wake us all up with a beautifully executed new Riviera.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 minute ago, trinacriabob said:

    I know.

    Three of them are the pony trio and there's three more I'd have to scratch my head about.  Yes ... the Cascada, too.

    Damn, the automotive world needs to wake us all up with a beautifully executed new Riviera.

    Challenger, Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Cascada, ATS.. and the only 2dr SUV left is the Wrangler.  

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Well I think the luxury truck trend is fine and I am delighted that more ppl are trading in BMW and Benz for American trucks, but I also have a concern that there might be a move to put the pickup truck more into a niche role, v. the universal role the pickup truck now enjoys.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    10 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Challenger, Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Cascada, ATS.. and the only 2dr SUV left is the Wrangler.  

    Except for maybe the ATS and the Cascada, none of these could really house 4 adult occupants that well, including having them enter and exit the rear seat.

    So, even with 6 survivors, none of them are mainstream medium to large sized coupes that 4 or 5 people could pile into day in and day out ... like this ...

    I think I'm in love ...

    I had one exactly like this, sans vinyl roof and T-tops, and it was the most comfortable car I've ever owned.  I didn't slide around, like the announcer said.  I just sank right in.  It was reliable, but not as reliable as my W-bodies.  That's why, if another usable coupe came along, sign me up.

     

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Yeah, the others are more 2+2s.  I had the unpleasant experience of riding in the back seat of a '15 Mustang a couple years ago for a couple of miles...seemed very cramped inside considering big it is outside...I think my '87 Mustang has more headroom (and it is pretty cramped). 

    Then again, it's probably pretty rare today that 4 adults go around in a 2dr car...I did that occasionally when I drove 2drs exclusively, but usually knew someone with a 4dr. 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I guess it depends on the coupe.  On my '84 Cutlass Supreme Brougham coupe, the seats leaned forward quite a ways and left a pretty good gap for someone up to 5'10" or so to enter and exit.  I never had a problem getting in and out when I sat back there to clean.

    I was thinking about this as several cars passed me up today.  The whole thing about cars, be they sedans or coupes, is that they offer so much more in terms of design opportunities and to carve out different personalities for themselves.  There's a lot more you can do with three volumes (hood, greenhouse, and rear lid areas) than there is with two bigger ones.  I find that, unless I look very closely, many SUVs and CUVs seem to blend together.  Perhaps it's began these segments don't interest me all that much.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    The coupes I have experience with were all on the smaller side...'86 Mustang LX,  '87 Mustang GT,  '91 Acura Legend, '91 Mercedes 300CE, '96 BMW M3...all had pretty tight back seats...  I do remember friends back in the day w/ 80s-90s GM coupes that were more spacious.   Growing up, my folks had a variety of Ford 2drs--'60s-70s Cougars, '70s-80s Thunderbirds and Mustangs--so I did ride in plenty when I was a kid. 

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    All the 2-dr sedans & hardtops I've owned/been around were mostly full-size cars.
    Next time I'm over my buddy's, I'll check out getting in/out of his '66 LeMans 2-dr rear seat.
    Wife had an '87 Mustang LX but I don't remember if I was ever in it's back seat.

    • Haha 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I had to laugh at this.  My mind wandered over to the many uses of back seats.

    As for the Pontiac, my dad had a used '70 Pontiac LeMans coupe we bought about 10 years later and with under 50,000 miles.  Color:  Bimini Blue, IIRC, with black interior. Found it in the L.A. Times.  It had been brought down from a small town in the Pacific Northwest.  Nice people selling it - none of that stupid L.A. vs. Seattle mentality back then.  It had a 250 c.i. L6 (Chevy vintage), no air, and no power accessories (yes to steering and brakes, though).  We bought it as an extra car and we joked that it was "the dog's car" because, with vinyl seats, it was the only one she was allowed to ride in.  My dad had vowed never to buy a Pontiac, because they weren't as good as Buick and Olds.  As it turned out, that  LeMans coupe this was, by far, the most reliable car the family had ever owned.  The back seat - just great.  I cut my teeth on doing small auto maintenance tasks on this car.  The engine bay was largely empty and there was a lot of leeway to get it right the first time.

    This color, more or less, but the base model, sans rally wheels, hood scoops, and a spoiler:

    early 70s Pontiac LeMans coupe

    That model could either have a 250 (L6) or V8s displacing 350, 400, and 455 (all Pontiac versions)!  Funny how no one ever got pissed when their other GM car brands had inline 6s made by Chevy ... referring to when Chevy 350s were discovered in Olds products and how that enraged those buyers.

    And Pontiac always dialed in their dashboards better than did their counterparts at Buick and Olds - IMO

    LeMans dashboard

    I so miss the Pontiac Motor Division.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • To address one of your likely 'back seat thoughts', TCB - at the time my girlfriend/wife was driving the '87 stang, I was driving a '78 Plymouth sedan, which I soon upgraded to a '64 Catalina sedan. I don't have the Cat's specs at my fingertips, but the '59 Buick coupe rear seat was a smidge over 66" wide. :D

    • Pontiac ditched their proprietary OHC I-6 the year before. But with the focus on the plethora of V8s available in any given GM car, I guess the usage of the Chevy I-6 was of no consequence then. Supporting that theory is the bru-ha-ha only 4 years later with the 350s. 'Don't mess with our V-8s!' consumers grumbled.

    • It's funny how ingrained brand loyalty was 'back in the day'- in hindsight it's hard to grasp how deep those roots ran. My grandfather & father (and in turn; me) were Pontiac men since 1955. Both of them also had a smattering of Olds' & Buicks (and I have my B-59), but Pontiac was the king of the '60s because of the hardware (engineering, styling, race heritage & image).

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    The whole 350 thing was because every division was producing one in those years, so it could fly undetected until ... drum roll ... it hit the service department for some type of repair or service.  And there were different schools of thought as to which was better.  For one thing, Olds buyers paid more for their cars and wanted an Olds engine, and not a Chevy engine.  I prefer an Olds V8 to a Chevy V8.  I don't know why ... but right down to the way it sounds and it's laid out.  The plugs are not grouped in twos and they sit up higher.  The only thing was that, when equipped with A/C, two spark plugs were "inaccessible" on an Olds V8s.  If not, then they were all very easily reachable by hand.

    However, when they're dropping in just one 250 or just one 231, the mix up would have never happened when someone's car needed to be serviced.  Any V6 Olds Supreme (downsized version) from '78 to '87 ran with the Buick V6 carbureted engine.  No complaints heard.  Any mid-70s Pontiac of LeMans and Ventura size that offered a smaller entry level V8 would be getting the Olds 260.  No complaints heard.

    I can't remember.  The Pontiac OHC I-6 was a 230 or something like that?  That damn Chevy inline 6 was indestructible.  Boring, yes, but extremely reliable and easy to work on.

    Less is more, sometimes ...

    Edited by trinacriabob

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    But recall that the '350 debacle' is what generated the legalese 'GM vehicles produced with engines from various divisions' or the like, precluding any class-action suits/ complaints.
    The initial PMD OHC I-6 was 230 CI, but it may have enlarged to 250 by '69.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Wow, this thread has taken on some tangential qualities, so I'll add a little more.  I once read this info about the Olds 350 Rocket V8.  Whenever they've modified it, either down (260, 307) or up (403), the stroke has remained the same, so it was the bore that was changed.  So, when they initially did that with the 260, the space for the cooling jackets in the block was increased.  However, the cooling jackets on the 403, since it remained a small block, got narrower and it supposedly ran a little hotter and/or presented some cooling challenges.  The 403, if we recall, was the replacement for the big block 455 Rocket V8.  (That's another study in duplication - a 454 by Chevy and 455s by both Pontiac and Olds.)

    Back on track, this trend toward SUVs and trucks sort of became apparent to me the other day as I was driving.  I noticed that the center mounted stop lamp no longer sits at the base of most backlites.  In the new Malibu and Impala, for example, it is wedged in at the very top of the backlite, where it meets the roof line.  The math of more people buying vehicles where they will be sitting up higher probably dictated this design change.

    Edited by trinacriabob

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    ... and a 455 @ Buick. :D All completely proprietary, of course.

    260 is at least as early as '75, 403 came online in '77 (correct: to supplement the loss of the 455), and the 307 came out for '80. Interesting that Olds chose to retain the con rods/crank and bore the block/change the piston. 260 to 403 only meant about 3/4-in larger diameter pistons, but I could see that impacting cooling capacity, yes.

    The math of more people buying vehicles where they will be sitting up higher probably dictated this design change.


    Agreed.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Absolutely to the 260 in 1975 - our next door neighbors opted for a Cutlass Supreme of that year with that engine.  I know that it ran at least 140,000 hassle free miles without giving up the ghost, and then some

    Absolutely to the 403 in 1977 - it replaced the 455 in the newly downsized Ninety Eights and Eighty Eights, alongside other similarly sized BOP products that were also downsized that year.

    I think you're right as to the 307 - it might have come on board at that time to power the Toro or the full sizes.  However, the 260 was still available in the '82 Cutlass Supreme/Calais, with the 307 being the V8 option beginning in 1983 for the remainder of its life as a RWD. 

    Edited by trinacriabob

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites


    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Similar Content

    • By William Maley
      Automakers for the most part were hurting in sales during the second quarter. The COVID-19 pandemic and the economy coming to a screeching halt for a brief time caused new car sales to drop by a third according to Automotive News. But there is a slim silver lining to this, full-size pickups have moved into being the best-selling segment of vehicles.
      According to data from Automotive News, one out of four vehicles sold between April and June was a pickup truck. This helped put them ahead of compact crossovers, which have held the top spot for some time. The reason is that trucks didn't take as big of a hit due to 0 percent financing offers from automakers to help bring in buyers. A large number of dealers said they sold the majority of trucks sitting on their lots.
      Mark LaNeve, Ford's vice president of U.S. marketing, sales and service provides another reason why trucks didn't fall off a cliff. Speaking to AN, he said that people need trucks for work and "affluent consumers who often buy such vehicles have been less affected by the pandemic."
      Trucks still took quite the hit in the quarter,
      Chevrolet Silverado: Down 14% Ford F-Series: Down 23% GMC Sierra: Down 4% Ram: Down 35% Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      Automakers for the most part were hurting in sales during the second quarter. The COVID-19 pandemic and the economy coming to a screeching halt for a brief time caused new car sales to drop by a third according to Automotive News. But there is a slim silver lining to this, full-size pickups have moved into being the best-selling segment of vehicles.
      According to data from Automotive News, one out of four vehicles sold between April and June was a pickup truck. This helped put them ahead of compact crossovers, which have held the top spot for some time. The reason is that trucks didn't take as big of a hit due to 0 percent financing offers from automakers to help bring in buyers. A large number of dealers said they sold the majority of trucks sitting on their lots.
      Mark LaNeve, Ford's vice president of U.S. marketing, sales and service provides another reason why trucks didn't fall off a cliff. Speaking to AN, he said that people need trucks for work and "affluent consumers who often buy such vehicles have been less affected by the pandemic."
      Trucks still took quite the hit in the quarter,
      Chevrolet Silverado: Down 14% Ford F-Series: Down 23% GMC Sierra: Down 4% Ram: Down 35% Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)
    • By David
      NEURON EV

      CES 2020 has been a busy place this year with more auto companies showing of prototypes and finally production ready auto's than ever before. We have seen so much including the latest in super dense solid state batteries for the EVs to motorcycles and bikes.
      This year we now get to see the latest competition to Tesla and Rivian in a well funded California / China based EV auto company called NEURON EV. This company has a swiss army knife of a truck/suv auto as well as a Semi truck that they say is going into production in 2020.

      The truck which is seen here in Silver has a sister truck that was running around the streets which is the following Black T-One.

      All the details you could ever want can be found here on this truck: https://www.neuronev.co/new-products/t-one-p-gyrwr
      The cool thing about this modular truck is that is can be more than a truck, a tractor, a van. there are no limits to how one can configure up this beast of an EV.

      The seat options are an interesting take as you can go like how Tesla showed their Semi with a center driving position as a base 3 seat configuration of 3 captain chairs, or a single drivers captain chair and a bench seat behind for 4 people and go from there to cover a wide range of colors, materials, etc. in customizing your auto. 
      While this company is looking at this modular truck and semi for the US, in china they will have many more auto options including their V.E.G.A. or Versatile Electric Grand Automobile.

      The company has great plans and while they have only two models for the US market, China will get many more that includes a medium duty truck, a bus, a MAP or Multipurpose Autonomous Platform focused on shipping yards, a HUB or autonomous transportation auto, in addition to the car, semi and truck.
      NEURON EV has not released any details about their hp / torque other than to say class leading at this time. Two wheel drive and All Wheel Drive will be the choices folks will have and talk of a base 300 mile range battery pack. More details are to come later this year.
      First Press release of 2020 can be found here:
      https://www.neuronev.co/01102020
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC69MUFfq-4W8qxUWcGltBUg
       
  • Posts

  • Social Stream

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Raybob9289
      Raybob9289
      (54 years old)
    2. Z06C6Vette
      Z06C6Vette
      (32 years old)
  • Who's Online (See full list)

  • My Clubs

About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We ♥ Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×
×
  • Create New...