Good Luck Jeep, They have lots of work to do to make the crappy Fiat 500 / Panda off road worthy.

Maybe a Jeepified version of the Panda Cross...

How much smaller can they get?!?!? 

The Panda is approx. 20 inches shorter than a Renegade, with approx a 10 inch shorter wheelbase.  Smaller scale for tight European city streets.. 

Yea, time to rebuild and modernize the cities and roads, history in the books and stop trying to save every bloody road and building. Europe needs a massive revitalization as their cities stink, roads stink, the best place is Germany for Driving but even then crazy nut jobs want to still also save every freaking old building.

Everything has a lifespan and needs to be replaced eventually. Moron nuts in Seattle are trying to get all these old late 1800's warehouse building put on the stupid preservation list to save and they just need to be torn down and built with new modern buildings as well as replace the sucky brick roads we still have in the sodo district. Talk about a nightmare equal to Detroit for pot holes and crappy auto rides.

19 minutes ago, dfelt said:

we still have in the sodo district

So this is a real place...? Got damn do I love South Park. 

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

So this is a real place...? Got damn do I love South Park. 

Yup, that episode was based on our SODO district here in Seattle.  

Good old gentrification....lots of it in Denver, often w/ acronym names like LoDo, RiNo, etc.   Pockets of it going on around Cleveland in various neighborhoods...Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway, Warehouse District, etc.   Some great restaurants, brewpubs, gastropubs, etc that have opened in those districts (that I'm working my way through).   In general, I like to see them preserve, modernize and repurpose old buildings rather than tear down and build new generic stuff.    

7 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

 In general, I like to see them preserve, modernize and repurpose old buildings rather than tear down and build new generic stuff.  

I agree. Older, brick buildings always tend to look classier to me. 

32 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Good old gentrification....lots of it in Denver, often w/ acronym names like LoDo, RiNo, etc.   Pockets of it going on around Cleveland in various neighborhoods...Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway, Warehouse District, etc.   Some great restaurants, brewpubs, gastropubs, etc that have opened in those districts (that I'm working my way through).   In general, I like to see them preserve, modernize and repurpose old buildings rather than tear down and build new generic stuff.    

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I agree. Older, brick buildings always tend to look classier to me. 

I would agree with you guys in regards to buildings that have had old masters that did artwork with the brick, roof overhangs, etc. If a building has some real artistry to it and it can be modernized to be earthquake safe and repurpose, then yes.

But in the SODO district we are talking old brick or old cement warehouses that were never used as an office building or has real historical importance other than it was built in the late 1800's to early 1900's and are falling apart.

Those buildings, tear down and build new.

Some pics of gentrified areas in Cleveland...the Warehouse District (old warehouses that have been made into lofts w/ restaurants, etc on the ground floor).

Downtown and The West Bank of the Flats, from the Cuyahoga River.

And on the West Side, Ohio City...

While not a Millennial that uses beard oil and purchases arteisanal toilet paper,  I do enjoy visiting such neighborhoods, cruising around in my Jeep and doing brunch, having a beer or two or some good wine.  Only about 15-20 minutes from my suburb.  Liking what I see so far, reminds me of areas of Denver I used to frequent, but with a Great Lake and river...

@Cubical-aka-Moltar Those are nice buildings that do not look like warehouses.

Here is one from the latest news as they debate how to rejuvenate the Sodo district. From the Seahawks football stadium to the south of the West Seattle freeway you can see is what is called the SODO district. Nothing but old warehouse space. 50% still in use, 50% empty sitting useless usually due to not being earthquake safe.

Earthquake retrofitting seems like it would be very costly..I know San Francisco has spent a lot on that.  Not an issue here in NE Ohio.  

It's been 10 years since I've visited Seattle, sure a lot has changed since then...was mostly a touristy long weekend..visited the Space Needle, Pike Place Market, Pioneer Square...visited friends in Ballard.  Definitely would like to visit again, been to Portland more often. 

12 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Earthquake retrofitting seems like it would be very costly..I know San Francisco has spent a lot on that.  Not an issue here in NE Ohio.  

It's been 10 years since I've visited Seattle, sure a lot has changed since then...was mostly a touristy long weekend..visited the Space Needle, Pike Place Market, Pioneer Square...visited friends in Ballard.  Definitely would like to visit again, been to Portland more often. 

If ya ever come out let me know and we can meet up and have a beer, wine or some other wonderful drink on me.  

What does "SODO" even stand for? 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What does "SODO" even stand for? 

Probably 'South of Downtown'?    Like 'LoDo' is Lower Downtown, 'RiNo' is 'River North'  (those two are in Denver).

47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What does "SODO" even stand for? 

Originally when Seattle had our KingDome, SODO stood for South of the Dome. Since the KingDome was destroyed and rebuilt for the Seahawks as Quest field, an open air stadium, SODO now stands for South of Downtown.

5 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

The Panda is approx. 20 inches shorter than a Renegade, with approx a 10 inch shorter wheelbase.  Smaller scale for tight European city streets.. 

A Porsche 911 is 10 inches longer than a 167" Renegade. Streets in Europe apparently have been shrinking for decades- now NOTHING can be driven in ANY cities there. What a shock / shame.

58 minutes ago, balthazar said:

A Porsche 911 is 10 inches longer than a 167" Renegade. Streets in Europe apparently have been shrinking for decades- now NOTHING can be driven in ANY cities there. What a shock / shame.

Certainly in the ancient parts of Rome and other cities in Italy the streets and roads are tight, which is why there are so many Fiat 500s and other tiny city cars like Smart cars and Ligiers.  Driving the Amalfi Coast south of Naples, I ended up on parts of the road where the Mercedes A-class I was driving felt wide.. Though when I was in Rome I saw a Tahoe parked near the Colosseum...and many Grand Cherokees and Wranglers.  All depends on the particular section of a town or city and the particular road or street.  The freeways there and in France were great, IMO. 

Smart's European market share is 0.7%- not sure how that translates to "so many", but maybe in Rome for some buyers; OK.
It's just my Hyperbole Meter bounces hard right when I read 'need a smaller model because all European roads & cities can't fit the current tiny cars being built over the last decade'.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Smart's European market share is 0.7%- not sure how that translates to "so many", but maybe in Rome for some buyers; OK.
It's just my Hyperbole Meter bounces hard right when I read 'need a smaller model because all European roads & cities can't fit the current tiny cars being built over the last decade'.

Europeans in cities buy small, efficient cars.  CUVs are a growth niche there also.  They aren't going to be buying very many US sized SUVs and crossovers...it really is a different place.  

Not sure what 'American-sized' is supposed to mean exactly.  Like you have stated in the past, it's not 1960 anymore; every size class of vehicle is sold here, and none of the traditional attributes of US brands are really in effect; Buick hasn't offered a car "the size of a Buick" in decades. Encore is the same size as a Renegade (itself built in Italy).

I feel that the sentiment is largely outmoded.

Hell, the whole Europeans only buy small auto's is BS. As long as they are socialist and take such a large chunk of a persons income to support the bulk of lazy gov and gov supported citizens, they are unable to buy larger more comfortable auto's.

I have talked with many coworkers who complain about how much the gov takes in taxes and as such liimits their ability to buy more things or higher quality things. It really does suck in various ways.

Europe has plenty of cool things to visit, but would not ever want to live there.

One has to wonder also if their current system is not a reason why road size sucks, Humanity has always rebuilt and changes things, staying static is a fast path to death.

19 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Hell, the whole Europeans only buy small auto's is BS.  

Actually, that is reality. If you look at any European country, vehicle sales are dominated by small, efficient vehicles.   They don't have the large truck and SUV culture the US has.  Different markets, different conditions.   So back on topic, if FCA thinks there is a market for a Jeep smaller that the Renegade, it could work in certain markets.   Asian markets as well. 

47 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Actually, that is reality. If you look at any European country, vehicle sales are dominated by small, efficient vehicles.   They don't have the large truck and SUV culture the US has.  Different markets, different conditions.   So back on topic, if FCA thinks there is a market for a Jeep smaller that the Renegade, it could work in certain markets.   Asian markets as well. 

I understand and get your point. Also I am not applying this next thought to you but just making an observation.

The point I am making is that the culture also has affected this attitude due to the way the GOVs take so much of a person's income there. People who have grown up here and never been there do not understand that point compared to those that have lived abroad and had to deal with it in the past. Some love the all things small, socialist approach, but others do not. That is the point I was trying to make.

Buy like you said, back on the FCA Topic, they see a need for a smaller footprint CUV in Europe and can sell it better for them. This is the one area I believe Ford and GM have both failed at in not realizing the need to build to their market, but trying to export American style  of Auto to Europe.

I doubt they could sell that small auto here and make money on it, but it might just work in Europe and Asia where people are also much smaller.