Rumorpile: Mercedes-Benz Plans Four New EVs By 2020

Seems that since BMW came out with their iPerformance Line, MB now needs to copy them also. 

iPerformance story here: http://www.cheersandgears.com/topic/86922-bmw-iperformance-anything-new-or-just-addressing-cafe/

I just hope that Cadillac does not ignore this market. They need to have EV's in all levels.

Mercedes said they are not doing a sub-brand like BMW i, and are not copying them in that.  I see this more as Tesla fighters.  I am loving the prospect of a small to mid-size sedan with a 536 hp electric motor powering the rear wheels.  

I could see them doing some sort of GLA electric, that gives them a cheaper fwd electric car, that is better than the B-class.  But the fun stuff will be the twin motor 500+ HP stuff like the Tesla Model S.

And I think Dr. Thomas Weber will be missed.  

Mercedes said they are not doing a sub-brand like BMW i, and are not copying them in that.  I see this more as Tesla fighters.  I am loving the prospect of a small to mid-size sedan with a 536 hp electric motor powering the rear wheels.  

 

I could see them doing some sort of GLA electric, that gives them a cheaper fwd electric car, that is better than the B-class.  But the fun stuff will be the twin motor 500+ HP stuff like the Tesla Model S.

 

And I think Dr. Thomas Weber will be missed.

So the more than $100K BMW i8 is a "sub brand"?

Whatever you say.

The one car is supposed to be a sedan bigger than a C-class, but smaller than an E-class, for sure they would want that to cost under 50,000 Euro or whatever the threshold is for the German gov't tax credit or subsidy that they have for electric cars.    They need volume to justify the platform.   The 2nd sedan will be large, and I imagine be based on this:

WHy not just offer EV options for the existing lines, instead of bringing out 4 MORE additional models??

If slotting between the C & E, the sedans would HAVE to be dubbed 'D-class' now that MB has supposedly gotten their naming system in order.

Too many models !!

WHy not just offer EV options for the existing lines, instead of bringing out 4 MORE additional models??

If slotting between the C & E, the sedans would HAVE to be dubbed 'D-class' now that MB has supposedly gotten their naming system in order.

Too many models !!

It's Mercedes. The naming problems of others do not apply to them. They were the first to create a one letter car and are above all criticisms of such things.

Because making an electric car on a platform designed for gas engine in the front and a drivetrain running down the middle doesn't make sense.   If they make an electric car platform they can load the floor plan with batteries and electric motors.  More interior room, and they have more flexibility with styling.

They are making 10 plug-in hybrid versions of existing models though, for those that want an electrified C, E, S, GLE, GLC, etc.

 

WHy not just offer EV options for the existing lines, instead of bringing out 4 MORE additional models??

If slotting between the C & E, the sedans would HAVE to be dubbed 'D-class' now that MB has supposedly gotten their naming system in order.

Too many models !!

It's Mercedes. The naming problems of others do not apply to them. They were the first to create a one letter car and are above all criticisms of such things.

 

They haven't even named it yet, or said exactly what these will be.  One can speculate they are going right after Tesla though.   Maybe they will make the E-wagen.  Perhaps an E-wing with gullwing doors.

The good thing about Mercedes is huge R&D budget and they aren't constrained as to what they can build or how many models they can have.  A lot of the cars share drive trains and they only have like 4 platforms (not counting G-wagen) that they build a lot of variants off of.  While the other guys talk about it, or show concept cars, Mercedes builds dream cars.

WHy not just offer EV options for the existing lines, instead of bringing out 4 MORE additional models??

If slotting between the C & E, the sedans would HAVE to be dubbed 'D-class' now that MB has supposedly gotten their naming system in order.

Too many models !!

It's Mercedes. The naming problems of others do not apply to them. They were the first to create a one letter car and are above all criticisms of such things.

They haven't even named it yet, or said exactly what these will be. One can speculate they are going right after Tesla though. Maybe they will make the E-wagen. Perhaps an E-wing with gullwing doors.

The good thing about Mercedes is huge R&D budget and they aren't constrained as to what they can build or how many models they can have. A lot of the cars share drive trains and they only have like 4 platforms (not counting G-wagen) that they build a lot of variants off of. While the other guys talk about it, or show concept cars, Mercedes builds dream cars.

Of course, maybe it wasn't really a joke.

Btw, do you want me to repost those pictures of those "dream cars" Mercedes didn't build because they are no damn different from any other automaker in that regard?

Good grief. You must love Kool Aid.

A twin motor electric with over 500 HP is going to be awesome. Tesla very well could be the future, they are getting ready to fight the future. They aren't going to sit idle and let Tesla pass them by.

A twin motor electric with over 500 HP is going to be awesome. Tesla very well could be the future, they are getting ready to fight the future. They aren't going to sit idle and let Tesla pass them by.

Interesting how you only focus on the 500+ HP rather than admit that MB will also produce some best effort at that cause their basic engine will start at 75kW or 101HP which is half of what the Chevy BOLT will be which is 150kW or 200HP.

A twin motor electric with over 500 HP is going to be awesome. Tesla very well could be the future, they are getting ready to fight the future. They aren't going to sit idle and let Tesla pass them by.

Interesting how you only focus on the 500+ HP rather than admit that MB will also produce some best effort at that cause their basic engine will start at 75kW or 101HP which is half of what the Chevy BOLT will be which is 150kW or 200HP.

It's the tasty Mercedes Benz Kool Aid that does it.

WHy not just offer EV options for the existing lines, instead of bringing out 4 MORE additional models??

If slotting between the C & E, the sedans would HAVE to be dubbed 'D-class' now that MB has supposedly gotten their naming system in order.

Too many models !!

That was the first thing that I thought of too. Make EV versions of the C or E but don't make a third vehicle slotted between them. 

 

A twin motor electric with over 500 HP is going to be awesome. Tesla very well could be the future, they are getting ready to fight the future. They aren't going to sit idle and let Tesla pass them by.

Interesting how you only focus on the 500+ HP rather than admit that MB will also produce some best effort at that cause their basic engine will start at 75kW or 101HP which is half of what the Chevy BOLT will be which is 150kW or 200HP.

 

There won't be only 1 motor per car.   The earlier reports were a 300 kw (400 hp) electric motor would be the base motor for rear drive vehicles.  All wheel drive vehicles get another motor or two up front.  So there could be a 101 hp motor on each front wheel, a 400 hp motor in the back, now you have 602 hp in an all wheel drive car, or put the 540 hp motor in back and you have 740 hp total.

Perhaps also they want a few electric motors of different power levels for use in plug-in hybrids too.  Mercedes like in house made stuff, they probably don't want to buy off some other maker, just like they don't buy transmissions from ZF or Aisin.    Maybe they need the 101 hp electric motor to put on each front wheel of the mid-engine super car Tobias Moors wants to build.  Put 2 of those up front, with a 600 hp V8 in back, and they can go Ferrari hunting.

I think the cars will be a lot closer than we are speculating. Pretty much Mercedes next-gen platform share common bones for a lot of cars/cuvs.

I'm thinking along the lines of Voltec and D2XX.

 

Mercedes said they are not doing a sub-brand like BMW i, and are not copying them in that.  I see this more as Tesla fighters.  I am loving the prospect of a small to mid-size sedan with a 536 hp electric motor powering the rear wheels.  

 

I could see them doing some sort of GLA electric, that gives them a cheaper fwd electric car, that is better than the B-class.  But the fun stuff will be the twin motor 500+ HP stuff like the Tesla Model S.

 

And I think Dr. Thomas Weber will be missed.

So the more than $100K BMW i8 is a "sub brand"?

Whatever you say.

 

'sub brand' has nothing to do with price...it simply means brand-within-a-brand.  BMW's i and M ranges fit that definition, as does M-B's AMG and Maybach ranges.    Same with Cadillac and V-series, Chrysler and SRT, Ford and SVT/ST, etc..

Mercedes said they are not doing a sub-brand like BMW i, and are not copying them in that. I see this more as Tesla fighters. I am loving the prospect of a small to mid-size sedan with a 536 hp electric motor powering the rear wheels.

I could see them doing some sort of GLA electric, that gives them a cheaper fwd electric car, that is better than the B-class. But the fun stuff will be the twin motor 500+ HP stuff like the Tesla Model S.

And I think Dr. Thomas Weber will be missed.

So the more than $100K BMW i8 is a "sub brand"?

Whatever you say.

'sub brand' has nothing to do with price...it simply means brand-within-a-brand. BMW's i and M ranges fit that definition, as does M-B's AMG and Maybach ranges. Same with Cadillac and V-series, Chrysler and SRT, Ford and SVT/ST, etc..

I would say the same thing for the other brands as well. I don't feel that is the right term for it anyway but maybe that's just me.

 

 

 

Mercedes said they are not doing a sub-brand like BMW i, and are not copying them in that. I see this more as Tesla fighters. I am loving the prospect of a small to mid-size sedan with a 536 hp electric motor powering the rear wheels.

I could see them doing some sort of GLA electric, that gives them a cheaper fwd electric car, that is better than the B-class. But the fun stuff will be the twin motor 500+ HP stuff like the Tesla Model S.

And I think Dr. Thomas Weber will be missed.

So the more than $100K BMW i8 is a "sub brand"?

Whatever you say.

'sub brand' has nothing to do with price...it simply means brand-within-a-brand. BMW's i and M ranges fit that definition, as does M-B's AMG and Maybach ranges. Same with Cadillac and V-series, Chrysler and SRT, Ford and SVT/ST, etc..

They are sold at BMW dealerships and are BMWs so I think the term "sub-brand" is a huge misnomer.

I would say the same thing for the other brands as well. I don't feel that is the right term for it anyway but maybe that's just me.

 

It is the right term.  

Mercedes said they are not doing a sub-brand like BMW i, and are not copying them in that. I see this more as Tesla fighters. I am loving the prospect of a small to mid-size sedan with a 536 hp electric motor powering the rear wheels.

I could see them doing some sort of GLA electric, that gives them a cheaper fwd electric car, that is better than the B-class. But the fun stuff will be the twin motor 500+ HP stuff like the Tesla Model S.

And I think Dr. Thomas Weber will be missed.

So the more than $100K BMW i8 is a "sub brand"?

Whatever you say.

'sub brand' has nothing to do with price...it simply means brand-within-a-brand. BMW's i and M ranges fit that definition, as does M-B's AMG and Maybach ranges. Same with Cadillac and V-series, Chrysler and SRT, Ford and SVT/ST, etc..

They are sold at BMW dealerships and are BMWs so I think the term "sub-brand" is a huge misnomer.

I would say the same thing for the other brands as well. I don't feel that is the right term for it anyway but maybe that's just me.

It is the right term.

Again, merely stating my opinion that it is a misused term in this case. I view those more as a brand extension.

Also, my mention of price was meant as a tongue in cheek response to SMKs assertion that Benz won't go that route, even that is exactly what it is looking like.

I'm sure there will be a $100k+ EV car, but it will probably also do 0-60 in 3 seconds flat, so bring it in.   AMG is going to be doing electric cars in 10 years I bet.  Electric is going to be the future, the gas engine eventually won't be able to catch up.

Here's the German government taking people's money and forcing changes where they are not needed nor desired.  I guess those who try to hold onto their infinitely practical gas or diesel powered vehicles will be sent to concentration camps next.

Doubt they will bring back concentration camps.

Eventually though electric will overtake gas cars, just like self driving cars will become common.  There will always be gas cars for the exhaust note in a sports car, or perhaps longer range driving (500+miles), but when batteries and electric motors get cheaper, the performance level is undeniable.

Just think of this, the first smart phone came out 9 years ago.  And look how fast things went since.  

Eventually though electric will overtake gas cars, just like self driving cars will become common.

Won't happen in our lifetimes.

 

Eventually though electric will overtake gas cars, just like self driving cars will become common.

Won't happen in our lifetimes.

 

Sure it will.  Take a car like the Corvette Z06, fastest car GM has ever made in 100 years, and the Tesla sedan is faster on the first generation.

5 years ago a Nissan Leaf at $35k had a 100 mile range, now we are seeing 200 mile range for similar price out of a Bolt or Model 3 next year.   In 5 more years they will be a 300 mile range for $30k.  And with an electric cost of $250 a year vs $2,500 a year for gas, that gets to be an easy sell for electrics.

*Quicker....not faster as of yet. Besides, even though there are some rare stories of the Z06 going into limp mode....the Tesla will ALWAYS go into limp mode on a track.

When the EV incentives go away, a much harder battle between ICE and BEV will be fought. Agree with Balth, though I see a point where both cars become very substitutable.

There will be a lot of redundancy.Maybe gas stations will also be the charging stations?

 

 

Eventually though electric will overtake gas cars, just like self driving cars will become common.

Won't happen in our lifetimes.

 

Sure it will.  Take a car like the Corvette Z06, fastest car….

Were you referencing SALES as usual, or just performance?

Excuse me if I erroneously assumed it was your Prime Directive : SALES.

We've had 15+ years of hybrids and they're still only 3% of vehicle sales. Pure electrics are behind hybrids, and while it's possible they will surpass them, they have monstrous uphill public perception battle to gain 51% of vehicle sales. 

In twenty, thirty years they can perhaps be like 25% of the market. Maybe that's too generous.

Unless Trump becomes president, those CAFE goals will come and come down hard.

*Quicker....not faster as of yet. Besides, even though there are some rare stories of the Z06 going into limp mode....the Tesla will ALWAYS go into limp mode on a track.

 

When the EV incentives go away, a much harder battle between ICE and BEV will be fought. Agree with Balth, though I see a point where both cars become very substitutable.

 

There will be a lot of redundancy.Maybe gas stations will also be the charging stations?

What happens when batteries get cheap?  And a Tesla Model S that does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds costs about $55,000, and you could have that or turbo 4 CTS, 5-series, E-class, etc for the same price.   Time will tell, but I think electric will progress quickly and rapidly, and the gas engine won't be able to keep up.

 

 

 

Eventually though electric will overtake gas cars, just like self driving cars will become common.

Won't happen in our lifetimes.

 

Sure it will.  Take a car like the Corvette Z06, fastest car….

Were you referencing SALES as usual, or just performance?

Excuse me if I erroneously assumed it was your Prime Directive : SALES.

 

We've had 15+ years of hybrids and they're still only 3% of vehicle sales. Pure electrics are behind hybrids, and while it's possible they will surpass them, they have monstrous uphill public perception battle to gain 51% of vehicle sales. 

 

0-60 time, a Tesla Model S will beat a Corvette Z06.  The Tesla Model X crossover can beat a CTS-V or Charger Hellcat in a 1/4 mile.  11.7 second 1/4 mile in a 7 passenger SUV.  That is what electric can do.  

Top Gear USA did a drag race of a Model S, Hellcat and CTS-V, for the 1/4 mile the supercharged V8s were flat out embarrassed, only after the Tesla hit its top speed of 150 mph did the Hellcat eventually pass it because on the mile runway it got to 170 mph.

Tesla P90 D vs Corvette Z06, both stock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgZJg6Mu0cU

The Z06 is a really fast car too, a 0-60 time in the low 3's.  

I'm surprised hybrids are only 3% of sales...I see so many Priuses on the roads...

Batteries cannot get incredibly cheaper. Inflation taken into account,you can get better batteries over time. But the problem is not really capacity in kwh or range or the configuration of cells or even the chemistry. The problem is that batteries degrade quickly when driven in high performance situations for extended periods of time and/or when they are recharged and depleted a lot very quickly.  There is no maintenance that can fix that as of now, and in ICE cars the similar issue is wearing out the engine oil, but those are now extended service cycles, and replacing the oil early is always an option. Another side issue is that batteries are heavy as well. 

A battery that is depleted needs a warranty against it to cover that happening. And I'm not saying that batteries can't get cheap. But their component materials and sub-assemblies have a theoretical limit in production capacity due to a lack of raw materials. With current technology, we sure as hell don't have as much lithium as there is oil in this world. In fact, Lithium prices are steadily rising, rationalizing production will also have to offset increasing production costs.

And there's the whole issue of infrastructure. Tesla, while incredible in what they have done towards that, you need nations all over the world to finally get the will, the gut to do it. And the world is so over leveraged that BEVs, no matter how superior face a steeper challenge whenever oil prices go down, or cars become radically more efficient.

• But no one buys a $90K Model S to drag race a Corvette- that's not the motivation at all. And there's a lot more to ANY vehicle sale than 0-60 times.

• Tho I couldn't find this 3-way test (Model S/ Hellcat/ CTS-V) online, obviously the CTS-V ALSO ran away from the Model S, since it likewise has a 200 MPH top speed vs. the S's 155.

• If for ONE SECOND you think Tesla is going to drop the price of the Model S P90D LM from $118K down to $55K to sit right on top of the Model 3 in price, you're nuts.

 

 

• If for ONE SECOND you think Tesla is going to drop the price of the Model S P90D LM from $118K down to $55K to sit right on top of the Model 3 in price, you're nuts.

That would make no sense..isn't the base Model S like $75-80k now?

• But no one buys a $90K Model S to drag race a Corvette- that's not the motivation at all. And there's a lot more to ANY vehicle sale than 0-60 times.

 

• Tho I couldn't find this 3-way test (Model S/ Hellcat/ CTS-V) online, obviously the CTS-V ALSO ran away from the Model S, since it likewise has a 200 MPH top speed vs. the S's 155.

 

• If for ONE SECOND you think Tesla is going to drop the price of the Model S P90D LM from $118K down to $55K to sit right on top of the Model 3 in price, you're nuts.

The CTS-V never caught the Model S in the 3 way race, the runway wasn't long enough.  

I did find videos of the Model S blowing away the E63 and Nissan GT-R as well.    This is why Mercedes knows they need an electric car, the E63 was beat and how much faster can they make it with a V8?  They know part of the AMG equation after 2020 is electric power, whether is is pure EV or a hybrid.

I don't think the P90D will get cut in half any time soon, but in 10 years maybe a Model S P85 that can do 0-60 in 3.5 is $60k.  Maybe not, but batteries will get cheaper, gasoline engines are getting more expensive.  

Charger Hellcat's 0-200 KPH time is 11.8, CTS-V is 11.5.

558 HP E63's time to 200 KPH is 12.7

Well, we know now that that performance EVs can deliver on being quick? Can they deliver on being fast though? And as consistently as ICE powered cars? That'll be a big hurdle, and I don't see how Mercedes can solve that on its own.

The E63 S does 0-60 in 3.4 seconds, an 11.6 second 1/4 mile at 121.8 mph.   Stops form 60 mph in 106 feet, which is 6 better than a CTS-V.

CTS-V does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and 11.6 seconds 1/4 mile at 126 mph, so it would pull ahead after the 1/4 mile with the higher speed.

A Tesla Model S can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds and a 11.2 second 1/4 mile.

The current E-class is in its 7th model year too, so I am curious to see what they do with the new one.  I don't think it will be faster, but it should handle better as the current car is overly heavy.

Well, we know now that that performance EVs can deliver on being quick? Can they deliver on being fast though? And as consistently as ICE powered cars? That'll be a big hurdle, and I don't see how Mercedes can solve that on its own.

Hard to find a place where you can drive above 150 mph.  I'd rather have a car that is quick at speeds under 75 mph that is more usable, top end speed you can't even use on a race track, unless there is like a 2 mile straight away.

I'd call that being practical.... Then again, I personally still disdain EVs.

Anyways. EVs are still heavily incentivized, and the cheap leases won't last forever. Automakers will have to figure out a way to make money on these cars on their own without using the conventional cars to keep them afloat.

That is the true challenge. Take away the wow features available in a Tesla. Take away incentives (which do go away pretty soon for anyone mfg that has volume EV sales goals). Create a full cost recovery taxation model which pays for the Interstate, and not some other fuel levies that pay for stuff totally unrelated to vehicle usage....raise the price of energy to promote conservation.....and on top of that applications of minor electrification such as hybridization that can achieve decent mpg, say like 70 perhaps for a car costing $30,000....then the electric car becomes just another car fighting for it's life, with obscure benefits, since low priced EV's will not be rockets.

And that is what will make or break the electric car. 

I'm surprised hybrids are only 3% of sales...I see so many Priuses on the roads...

Seen elsewhere : in 2015 hybrids and pure electrics together were a screaming 0.66 % of the market. Even if we rounded up to a heady 1%, everybody is buzzing & clucking over 1 percent of the market. Guess what IS at 1% of the market? Convertibles. 

'Electric cars are going to surpass gas/diesels in 10 years'. Uh huh; sure. 

In 40-50 years with the roads crumbling, and the world toxic and polluted, misery everywhere, I'm pretty sure cars of all type will be either reserved for the elite or banned altogether.

^ What movie is that?

^ What movie is that?

Was that not Solent Green?

On 5/25/2016 at 8:04 PM, balthazar said:

WHy not just offer EV options for the existing lines, instead of bringing out 4 MORE additional models??

If slotting between the C & E, the sedans would HAVE to be dubbed 'D-class' now that MB has supposedly gotten their naming system in order.

Too many models !!

Agree on too many models!

On 6/2/2016 at 11:35 PM, Suaviloquent said:

In 40-50 years with the roads crumbling, and the world toxic and polluted, misery everywhere, I'm pretty sure cars of all type will be either reserved for the elite or banned altogether.

I am not that dystopian.  Do hope the car as a form of personal transportation survive.

Very cool, to read this on the MB EV concept auto. 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110498_british-magazine-gets-ride-in-all-electric-mercedes-eq-concept

Clearly a very different way to drive and how to send power to just front or just rear wheels.