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First Drive Tahoe Hybrid Car and Driver

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GM's full-size hybrid is the real deal. But is it better than a diesel?

BY DAVE VANDERWERP, October 2007

This is GM's self-proclaimed "no excuses hybrid." You can have it all: a gargantuan SUV with seating for eight, big 6.0-liter V-8, towing, hauling, four-wheel-drive, and fuel economy. That's right, GM's first "full" hybrid boosts the 4WD Chevrolet Tahoe/ GMC Yukon's fuel economy by a whopping 43 percent on the EPA city cycle and five percent on the highway figure, to a V-6 Toyota Camry–shaming 20 mpg city rating, as well as a 20 mpg highway rating (21/22 city/highway on 2WD models).

As part of this "no excuses" business, GM is proud that, unlike some single-purpose hybrids (think two-seater Honda Insight), the Tahoe maintains all existing functionality and features. Mark this one down: the Tahoe is the first hybrid to come with keyless starting; heck, it's even standard. That's right Mr. and Mrs. Overindulgent American Greenie, the press of a button fires up six liters of gas-guzzling V-8 goodness in the driveway. You may be worried about your carbon footprint, but a cold leather seat is no way to start the morning.

What, you thought Toyota would think of this first?

The Impressive Mechanicals

Making this fuel-economy leap possible are a host of changes, but the most interesting is GM's patented "two-mode" hybrid transmission that packages in the same space as one of the company's venerable four-speed automatics. What sets this system apart from the popular Toyota hybrid arrangement is that the Tahoe can run as a continuously variable transmission (CVT) and an automatic through one of four fixed gear ratios. With their theoretically infinite ratios, CVTs are much better than conventional automatics at keeping engines spinning at the most efficient speed, but at highway speeds, that advantage can be nullified by the internal friction inherent to CVT operation. In hybrids, the energy loss can be even worse because the drivetrain must also spin an electric motor. The Tahoe, however, uses a computer to switch over to a more energy efficient mechanical path (one of the fixed ratios in the automatic) to minimize wasted energy whenever possible. Whereas the Prius is always processing its power through the CVT, even at inefficient highway speeds, the Tahoe's system is better and can simply bypass the electric motors and lock onto a gear.

The power comes from GM's familiar pushrod 6.0-liter V-8—chosen instead of the 5.3-liter, GM says, because the larger engine is able to run in four-cylinder mode more of the time—as well as two 80-hp, 12,000-rpm AC electric motors fed by a 300-volt Panasonic DC battery pack (1.8 kW/h) housed under the second row. However, to further boost efficiency, the hybrid's small-block V-8 uses a late-closing intake valve tuning which sacrifices some low-end torque as well as top-end power. That's why the Tahoe's output is 332 hp and 367 lb-ft, down from its typical 366 hp and 380 lb-ft. Of course, the electric motors are there to fill in at the low end, even though they don't add anything to the peak power output of the overall system.

A Host of Tweaks

All the hybrid hardware adds weightabout 350 pounds in the Tahoe's case, GM says—which is not the direction to go in order to maximize efficiency of an already porky SUV. To counteract this, and admirably maintain a 5850-pound weight (5650 for 2WD models), the Tahoe changes a number of pieces to aluminum: the hood, front bumper beam, driveshaft, and rear liftgate. It also gets thinner, lighter seats, and forged-aluminum wheels. Even the recommended tire pressures are bumped up by two psi to eke out every last bit of efficiency.

To maximize aerodynamics—trimming the coefficient of drag from 0.36 to 0.34—the hybrid's lower front fascia is devoid of holes and extends further to the ground to decrease the amount of turbulent air passing beneath the truck, and a roof-mounted spoiler at the rear smoothes airflow over the top. 4WD models are lowered 0.4 inch in the front.

Drives Like, Well, a Quirky Tahoe

The Tahoe can propel itself on electric-only power (up to 32 mph) and, during our time, did so quite often. Pulling into a subdivision, for example, the Tahoe would shut down the V-8 and stay in electric mode for a half-mile or more as we wound our way through the low-speed streets. The gas engine also shuts down at stoplights, but pulling away at a rate that won't annoy those behind you will make it fire back up almost immediately.

GM says the hybrid can run its V-8 in four-cylinder mode at speeds up to 75 mph, although we can't verify that claim. We almost never saw the four-cylinder indicator in the trip computer at anything near highway speeds and, even at much lower speeds, any slight grade would quickly re-fire the four dormant cylinders.

Not driving any differently than normal, we managed a respectable 18 mpg over a 250-mile weekend, far better than the 12 mpg we got in a standard 5.3-liter V-8 Tahoe. And the hybrid's acceleration is comparable to that of the 5.3-liter V-8 as well, charging to 60 mph in just over eight seconds. But the power delivery, now that's different. At the low end, the hybrid feels a bit weak, but comes on with a surge of power in the mid-range. And there's still that familiar drone that accompanies many vehicles using CVTs to keep their engines revving at high, constant rpm for an extended period under hard acceleration.

Using the same 17-inch tires from other Tahoes, the hybrid actually has better stopping distances, GM says, because the anti-lock braking system was able to be optimized for a single tire. The feel of this electromechanical brake system that captures energy to charge the battery under deceleration, however, is lacking, and smoothly braking at your desired rate involves much guesswork. Trying to brake at the threshold of ABS activity proved nearly impossible because, at a predetermined point in the pedal's travel, the system goes to full-on panic-stop mode. Although, how many Tahoe buyers even know what threshold braking is?

Ride-and-handing felt comparable to regular Tahoes—fairly agile for a body-on-frame, solid-rear-axle SUV—but the electric power steering has even less feel than the regular Tahoe's. GM has yet to officially announce pricing but it will not be the most expensive Tahoe, the company claims. Since a fully-loaded Tahoe LTZ comes in comfortably above $50K, we expect the hybrid to start around $48,000 or so when they hit showrooms shortly.

Does It Make Sense?

The Tahoe/Yukon is only the start of GM's two-mode hybrid system. GM has already forged partnerships with Chrysler and BMW, so expect to see Dodge Durango/Chrysler Aspen hybrids as well as the X6 hybrid in the near future. In the GM fold, the Cadillac Escalade hybrid is next, followed by this system in its full-size Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra pickup trucks.

And the system certainly works, producing substantial fuel-economy gains. But, during our time with the Tahoe, we couldn't ignore this burning question: Why not just have a diesel Tahoe instead?

Consider this: the similarly sized, seven-passenger Mercedes-Benz GL320 is powered by a 215-hp, 398-lb-ft, 3.0-liter V-6 turbo-diesel. That 5Best Trucks–winning SUV gets an EPA rating of 18/24 city/highway and handily out-thrifted the Tahoe by 20 percent in our hands, netting 22 mpg over a similar driving cycle. Despite having a far better seating package, the GL320 suffers from none of the Tahoe's quirks (numb steering, lack of brake feel, and abnormal power delivery). Yes, starting at $53,775, the GL320 costs more than the Tahoe hybrid. However, the GL is cheaper than an Escalade, and will likely be both less expensive and more fuel efficient than the '09 Escalade hybrid.

For sure, both clean-diesel and hybrid technology are extremely expensive to develop. But we imagine that once a diesel engine is developed, it is likely far easier to install it in multiple vehicles (as Mercedes has done, putting this diesel in everything from the GL-, R-, and M-class SUVs to the E-class sedan) without painstakingly retuning the regenerative brakes, power delivery, and packaging; and without all the added complexity and relatively unknown service life of the electric motors and battery pack.

In light of all this, it seems like hybrids are definitely still fighting an uphill battle to prove themselves as the near-term fuel-efficiency technology-of-choice.

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And the system certainly works, producing substantial fuel-economy gains. But, during our time with the Tahoe, we couldn't ignore this burning question: Why not just have a diesel Tahoe instead?

Consider this: the similarly sized, seven-passenger Mercedes-Benz GL320 is powered by a 215-hp, 398-lb-ft, 3.0-liter V-6 turbo-diesel. That 5Best Trucks–winning SUV gets an EPA rating of 18/24 city/highway and handily out-thrifted the Tahoe by 20 percent in our hands, netting 22 mpg over a similar driving cycle. Despite having a far better seating package, the GL320 suffers from none of the Tahoe's quirks (numb steering, lack of brake feel, and abnormal power delivery). Yes, starting at $53,775, the GL320 costs more than the Tahoe hybrid. However, the GL is cheaper than an Escalade, and will likely be both less expensive and more fuel efficient than the '09 Escalade hybrid.

For sure, both clean-diesel and hybrid technology are extremely expensive to develop. But we imagine that once a diesel engine is developed, it is likely far easier to install it in multiple vehicles (as Mercedes has done, putting this diesel in everything from the GL-, R-, and M-class SUVs to the E-class sedan) without painstakingly retuning the regenerative brakes, power delivery, and packaging; and without all the added complexity and relatively unknown service life of the electric motors and battery pack.

In light of all this, it seems like hybrids are definitely still fighting an uphill battle to prove themselves as the near-term fuel-efficiency technology-of-choice.

Never heard this 'unproven' argument with the Prius. Nor have I heard all these irrational drive quality complaints when talking about the Prius or other hybrids, all of which make poor-composure cars even worse handlers. I also chuckle at "relatively unknown service life" not being used to talk about a Mercedes.

Also, let me get this straight - C&D is asking why buy the Tahoe hybrid when a Diesel V6 Mercedes is likely less expensive than the Escalade Hybrid - which isn't in the same class or even being built yet.

Why, that's the most valid argument I've ever heard for anything ever.

Oh, and Car & Driver just compared a Chevy truck to a Mercedes.

And finally...

Why not just have a diesel Tahoe instead?

...because I can't wait two/three years and have this...

Posted Image

...which is going to wipe its ass with any Bluetec diesel powering a Mercedes' minivan, er, crossover or SUV.

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A Tahoe diesel would be great, but the better answer is to have options of both. Not everyone is into the diesel scene. Time to give GM credit for doing both. Something NO ONE but GM is doing.

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Never heard this 'unproven' argument with the Prius. Nor have I heard all these irrational drive quality complaints when talking about the Prius or other hybrids, all of which make poor-composure cars even worse handlers. I also chuckle at "relatively unknown service life" not being used to talk about a Mercedes.

Also, let me get this straight - C&D is asking why buy the Tahoe hybrid when a Diesel V6 Mercedes is likely less expensive than the Escalade Hybrid - which isn't in the same class or even being built yet.

Why, that's the most valid argument I've ever heard for anything ever.

Oh, and Car & Driver just compared a Chevy truck to a Mercedes.

Car & Driver on the RX400h:

"To many drivers the transition from purely electric to gas and electric power wasn’t always smooth, and the amount of added power delivered was unpredictable. Many also felt a lurch and heard a clunking sound when the gas engine kicked in when the vehicle was at a complete stop. Most drivers thought that a $50,000 Lexus should behave more smoothly."

"The regenerative braking system got gripes, too. The transition from regenerative to hydraulic braking was often disconcerting because a small increase in pressure on the brake pedal might produce a huge increase in deceleration. Drivers complained that when they began to press lightly on the brake pedal, the RX seemed to surge a bit, causing the knee-jerk reaction of applying more braking than intended. This was especially apparent in city driving at moderate to low speeds."

"The brakes have no feel to them and are hard to operate smoothly. Similarly, the nonlinear power delivery makes smooth driving nearly impossible. - Dave Vanderwerp"

"My biggest complaint is the “surging” of the engine just when I’m starting to brake. All in all, this Lexus provides an oscillating ride that’s annoying in everyday use. - Juli Burke"

"On slight downhill grades, I feel a trailer-hitching effect, perhaps the outcome of the motors and engine trying to figure out which dominates. Brake feel remains a problem: 3000 miles into this trip, I’m just beginning to predict pedal travel versus stopping power. - John Phillips"

Maybe the Tahoe Hybrid really just does have weird brake and steering feel.

And finally...

...because I can't wait two/three years and have this...

Posted Image

...which is going to wipe its ass with any Bluetec diesel powering a Mercedes' minivan, er, crossover or SUV.

Mercedes has been making diesels forever, and the 3.0L V6 is just one of them. There's also the GL420 Blutec.

Edited by empowah
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it's amazing. they tested a truck that got 50% better mpg and they were bitching about brake feel and stuff.

that sort of stuff will improve over the next few years. the dumbasses are missing the big picture. Get the damn truck on the road and start saving some fuel.

I'd like to see this option in a Lambda.

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it's amazing. they tested a truck that got 50% better mpg and they were bitching about brake feel and stuff.

50% sounds like a big increase, but when it's only 5mpg better (and almost no increase at hwy speeds) it brings things into perspective. I think GM should focus on diesels and offer an auto start/stop feature when idling. Combine the efficiency/torque of the diesel with the one big advantage a hybrid has over a diesel, turning it off at idle. But then that might bring some interesting problems considering the much higher fuel pressures and higher compression ratios in diesels.

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50% sounds like a big increase, but when it's only 5mpg better (and almost no increase at hwy speeds) it brings things into perspective. I think GM should focus on diesels and offer an auto start/stop feature when idling. Combine the efficiency/torque of the diesel with the one big advantage a hybrid has over a diesel, turning it off at idle. But then that might bring some interesting problems considering the much higher fuel pressures and higher compression ratios in diesels.

The point of this system is that it can go into basically any type of vehicle. A 50% increase on a small car would be much more impressive.

Going by EPA figures, 10000 city miles will require 714 gallons of gas in a regular Tahoe. In a Hybrid Tahoe, 476 gallons of gas will be required. That's a savings of 238 gallons of gas for every 10000 miles driven in the city each year.

For comparison, a normal Civic with 5-speed auto will require 400 gallons of gas to drive 10000 city miles, while a Civic hybrid will require 250 gallons of gas, a savings of 150 gallons of gas. While the Civic may have a better percentage of gas saved, note that it uses a smaller engine in the hybrid, while the Tahoe uses a bigger engine in its hybrid.

It is also quite impressive that the hybrid Tahoe requires only 76 more gallons of gas over 10000 miles than a Civic, IMO.

Comparing the Tahoe's gains to a bigger vehicle such as the Camry is more impressive still. Over 10000 city miles, a I4 Camry will use the same amount of gas as a hybrid Tahoe (!), or 476 gallons. The Camry hybrid will use 303 gallons, or 173 less gallons than a normal Camry I4. The Camry again uses a less powerful gas engine in its hybrid.

To say that the gains are not very impressive is ridiculous.

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Absolutely correct, Northie. This is the first "have your cake and eat it too" Hybrid of any real consequence. It does all a Tahoe should do and yet sips fuel like a Camry - no mean feat, that!

Imagine the collective fuel savings when a few hundred-thousand of these are on the road.

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True that! I never ever read anything about unproven when the Prius came out. I think this new big SUV hybrid is a game changer. When this filters to the trucks, and up to the Escalade as well, GM will definitely be the mileage champs in the big truck/SUV segment, and no one can argue with that! GM ROCKS!

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The point of this system is that it can go into basically any type of vehicle.* A 50% increase on a small car would be much more impressive.

Going by EPA figures, 10000 city miles will require 714 gallons of gas in a regular Tahoe. In a Hybrid Tahoe, 476 gallons of gas will be required. That's a savings of 238 gallons of gas for every 10000 miles driven in the city each year.

For comparison, a normal Civic with 5-speed auto will require 400 gallons of gas to drive 10000 city miles, while a Civic hybrid will require 250 gallons of gas, a savings of 150 gallons of gas. While the Civic may have a better percentage of gas saved, note that it uses a smaller engine in the hybrid, while the Tahoe uses a bigger engine in its hybrid.

It is also quite impressive that the hybrid Tahoe requires only 76 more gallons of gas over 10000 miles than a Civic, IMO.

Comparing the Tahoe's gains to a bigger vehicle such as the Camry is more impressive still. Over 10000 city miles, a I4 Camry will use the same amount of gas as a hybrid Tahoe (!), or 476 gallons.** The Camry hybrid will use 303 gallons, or 173 less gallons than a normal Camry I4. The Camry again uses a less powerful gas engine in its hybrid.***

To say that the gains are not very impressive is ridiculous.****

*How is this system any different from current hybrids in terms of widespread use? If you were talking about BAS, I'd agree, but dual-modes are like current hybrids, in that they require dedicated battery pack space and specific-to-each-vehicle hybrid management systems.

**Keep in mind if you do any highway driving, you'd be burning far more gas in the Tahoe, hybrid or not.

***The Camry Hybrid is actually more powerful than the I4, with a net 187 hp.

****Agreed. The city fuel economy gains (50% with 2WD) are very impressive, far greater than any diesel's in the city.

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it would be pointless to roll this first hybrid out in diesel because they would have had to deal with even more expense of emissions, and 2% of the gas pumps out there have diesel.....which by the way clean diesel has only been here for what, a year?

bringing out this hybrid in diesel would be like taking a class of peanut allergy kids to the planters factory.

making this a gas hybrid means more people are able to use it.

Edited by regfootball
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I thought it was a good review. I read it as GM has taken a huge step forward and caught up/passed the Japs in hybrid technology. They did say somethings like numb sterring/etc but until one of us drives one to debunk these reports, I assume that there are some minor issues. Over all I thought it was a positive review that didn't praise GM for trying to catch up, but praised it for being a leader.

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It is also quite impressive that the hybrid Tahoe requires only 76 more gallons of gas over 10000 miles than a Civic, IMO.

To put that into even better perspective, that's only 3 fill ups more than a Civic over 10,000 miles.

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This is GM’s self-proclaimed “no excuses hybrid.” You can have it all

I love how 'car & driver' the self-proclaimed "real car guy" magazine slants this in a negative light just because it's GM. These people used to laugh at the Prius, surely they'd welcome with open arms a 'gas hog' that has technology which might allow their beloved sports cars to exist in the future. But then again, the entire outfit is hypocritical since these are the same 'car enthusiasts' that jack off monthly over plebian cars such as the Accord and Altima.

Does it make sense?

And the system certainly works, producing substantial fuel-economy gains. But, during our time with the Tahoe, we couldn’t ignore this burning question: Why not just have a diesel Tahoe instead?

Derrr, I dunno, emissions, CAFE, bad green image?!?!?! What difference does it make? Did the Prius make sense?!?! Does it still make sense?!?! Not really. It doesn't sell on looks, performance or utility and it still doesn't make a profit.

Better yet, did the Insight make and friggin' sense?

And BTW, what exactly is 'abnormal power delivery'?

Oh, wait, I know... Just like 'numb steering' and 'lack of brake feel' it's more subjective BULL$h! to criticize domestic vehicles about. EVERY drivetrain has differing power delivery, it's a fact of life. How can we set a standard for what's normal.

In light of all this, it seems like hybrids are definitely still fighting an uphill battle to prove themselves as the near-term fuel-efficiency technology-of-choice.

So, when Toyota does it; it's the wave of the future. But now that GM and the other domestics are playing the game BETTER this is the sumation we get.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see why these vehicles are 100% relevant. 1) GM sells a lot of SUVs. 2) The greenies hate that. 3) However GM cannot forfeit the sales and live. 4) So GM makes hybrid SUVs to gain acceptance from the greenies while at the same time satisfying the consumer. Not everyone wants a damn poser MB wagon with a diesel image. In fact, MOST OF AMERICA probably does not want that. GM would be remiss to not advance the SUV with technology such as this AND keep sales WHILE getting GOBS (And there will be gobs) of positive PR for their hybrid system that is "better than Toyota"

I can't wait to see what these idiots say about the Volt... I'm sure they'll write it off as "quirky" and "gimmicky"

*** It's just another EXCELLENT or BREAKTHROUGH product from GM that the media is giving 'begrudgingly positive' reviews to. They just can't stand the fact that there really is not any reason to bitch about GM anymore. And the fact that even the most cynical readers know this is like pouring salt on a slug.

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I love how 'car & driver' the self-proclaimed "real car guy" magazine slants this in a negative light just because it's GM. These people used to laugh at the Prius, surely they'd welcome with open arms a 'gas hog' that has technology which might allow their beloved sports cars to exist in the future. But then again, the entire outfit is hypocritical since these are the same 'car enthusiasts' that jack off monthly over plebian cars such as the Accord and Altima.

Derrr, I dunno, emissions, CAFE, bad green image?!?!?! What difference does it make? Did the Prius make sense?!?! Does it still make sense?!?! Not really. It doesn't sell on looks, performance or utility and it still doesn't make a profit.

Better yet, did the Insight make and friggin' sense?

And BTW, what exactly is 'abnormal power delivery'?

Oh, wait, I know... Just like 'numb steering' and 'lack of brake feel' it's more subjective BULL$h! to criticize domestic vehicles about. EVERY drivetrain has differing power delivery, it's a fact of life. How can we set a standard for what's normal.

So, when Toyota does it; it's the wave of the future. But now that GM and the other domestics are playing the game BETTER this is the sumation we get.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see why these vehicles are 100% relevant. 1) GM sells a lot of SUVs. 2) The greenies hate that. 3) However GM cannot forfeit the sales and live. 4) So GM makes hybrid SUVs to gain acceptance from the greenies while at the same time satisfying the consumer. Not everyone wants a damn poser MB wagon with a diesel image. In fact, MOST OF AMERICA probably does not want that. GM would be remiss to not advance the SUV with technology such as this AND keep sales WHILE getting GOBS (And there will be gobs) of positive PR for their hybrid system that is "better than Toyota"

I can't wait to see what these idiots say about the Volt... I'm sure they'll write it off as "quirky" and "gimmicky"

*** It's just another EXCELLENT or BREAKTHROUGH product from GM that the media is giving 'begrudgingly positive' reviews to. They just can't stand the fact that there really is not any reason to bitch about GM anymore. And the fact that even the most cynical readers know this is like pouring salt on a slug.

No, no, and um, no.

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No pleasing you guys, huh.

A decent to good review, an excellent product for its intended audiance (not gearheads, BTW) & some amazing EPA MPG #'s and that's not enough?

If the true cost of $15-20k per vehicle is to be believed---and the question of what to do with old hybrid batteries (Prius or Tahoe's) still exists, I don't think it unreasonable for a reviewer to bring up the Diesel Question--and I think it rather flattering that the MB diesel in particular is being compared...

The overall 'environmental friendliness' of Hybrids have been debated ad-nauseum on these boards (mostly in connection with belittling Toyonda's efforts)...Why shouldn't a car-rag make the same observation when applying their analysis to a new (to GM) technology? Especially given GM's less than stellar track record with new tech?

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Especially given GM's less than stellar track record with new tech?

When you consistantly introduce new technology in mass-market vehicles with greater frequency than just about any other manufacturer, you're bound to have some problems. Simple mathematics.

Contrast that with Toyota who, up until Synergy Drive, brought absolutely zero new technology to the table.

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The overall 'environmental friendliness' of Hybrids have been debated ad-nauseum on these boards (mostly in connection with belittling Toyonda's efforts)...Why shouldn't a car-rag make the same observation when applying their analysis to a new (to GM) technology? Especially given GM's less than stellar track record with new tech?

Unless the car rag is going to belittle Japan Inc. in the same manner, then the issue should be a moot point.

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No pleasing you guys, huh.

A decent to good review, an excellent product for its intended audiance (not gearheads, BTW) & some amazing EPA MPG #'s and that's not enough?

If the true cost of $15-20k per vehicle is to be believed---and the question of what to do with old hybrid batteries (Prius or Tahoe's) still exists, I don't think it unreasonable for a reviewer to bring up the Diesel Question--and I think it rather flattering that the MB diesel in particular is being compared...

The overall 'environmental friendliness' of Hybrids have been debated ad-nauseum on these boards (mostly in connection with belittling Toyonda's efforts)...Why shouldn't a car-rag make the same observation when applying their analysis to a new (to GM) technology? Especially given GM's less than stellar track record with new tech?

let me put it this way. some were bitching because the new 360hp rwd G8 was 30k.

yeah, sometimes it's like you can't please anyone.

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I honestly couldn't figure out if they hated it or loved it...

Well, to the established way of thinking (SUVs are bad/hybrids are good), melding the two creates a logic loop. They really, really want to like it, but it is a given that SUVs are bad...and, of course, if it doesn't come from Toyota is must be suspect anyway.

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When you consistantly introduce new technology in mass-market vehicles with greater frequency than just about any other manufacturer, you're bound to have some problems. Simple mathematics.

Contrast that with Toyota who, up until Synergy Drive, brought absolutely zero new technology to the table.

While I don't think GM has successfully introed anything in the last 30 years or so, I'll concede the point that Toyota has only refined other ideas--but the Hybrid system they developed is clearly a bridge technology to the future of the auto, as most vehicles will be 'hybrids' of some kind in the future.

I can't remember a Car Rag really getting behind the Hybrid thing---but C&D cetrtainly isn't the place to get a rave review of a true BOF SUV anyway.

If Dan Neil (LA Times) can get behind GM products, you know the worm is turning!

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While I don't think GM has successfully introed anything in the last 30 years or so,

:rotflmao:

Oh wait, you weren't kidding?!?! :blink:

If Dan Neil (LA Times) can get behind GM products, you know the worm is turning!

True that.

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:rotflmao:

Oh wait, you weren't kidding?!?! :blink:

True that.

*New Tech, not vehicles themselves---I can't think of anything they've brought out first that has become an 'industry standard' or must have....
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