Lutz: No to small cars and diesel, yes to E-85

[Camino LS6]

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6227157/editor...-e85/index.html

[NOS2006]

Damn, I really want to see more diesels and small cars. Completely serious. WTF, Lutz?

[David]

Small cars suck and are not safe. You can not make a coffin on wheels safe in a freeway crash.

Diesels, Sadly I disagree with him here as the cost of diesel is offset over the long run by the higher gas milage. Just a matter of marketing and with the right message you can change perception.

My thoughts on the topic.

[PurdueGuy]

Small cars can be pretty darn safe. Sure, you can always make something safer when you add 500 pounds, which unfortunately the "other guy" pays for in an accident. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard of s-series owners in particular walking away from very nasty accidents with little to no injuries, though.

That said, small cars can't and shouldn't be forced on people. But they should be an option. The meat of sales will still be in midsize cars.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That article was taken out of context. Lutz is actually saying he thinks the government should raise the price of gasoline to force people into smaller cars and different types of fuel like E85. He also said this "Lutz also reiterated GM's stance that electrically driven vehicles powered by lithium-ion batteries are the long-term future of the automobile industry".

Here is the whole article, from Automotive News and I also listened to his speech.

DETROIT -- General Motors sees E-85 and biofuels as the best near-term solution to lowering U.S. usage of petroleum.

But new federal fuel regulations will only mean higher vehicle prices, slower new vehicle sales and continued consumer resistance to smaller cars.

" We refuse to let the price of fuel rise gradually in the United States and therefore we fail to induce change in consumer behavior," Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman of global product development, said at the Automotive News World Congress on Wednesday evening.

Lutz said while GM is working diligently on alternative solutions to gasoline such as the lithium-ion battery powered Chevrolet Volt, consumer behavior is very difficult to change. And it takes a long time. New federal regulations requiring a 35-mile-per-gallon national average by 2020 will not inspire consumers to purchase more fuel-economic vehicles.

European prices

Only gas prices at the level that Europeans pay will cause Americans to rethink their vehicles, Lutz said. Current European gasoline prices are the equivalent of about $8 a gallon, he said.

" If for the last 15 years we'd had a slow but sure rise in federal fuel taxation of, say, 15 cents a gallon per year -- that would have gradually put the customer in the equation," he said.

Over time and without any federal fuel economy regulation, the markets could have naturally and gradually transitioned Americans into smaller and more diesel-oriented vehicles, Lutz said.

" I'm not advocating tax hikes or calling for higher fuel prices, I'm just explaining the difference between the European fleet and our own," he said. " In America, instead of raising fuel prices, we'll end up having to raise new vehicle prices, because of the increased use of lightweight materials and fuel-saving technology."

That will cause more people to hang on to the vehicles they have longer, slowing down new sales growth, " which is exactly counter to the intended effect," Lutz said.

" Europeans, at their fuel prices, are willing to pay premium prices for premium small cars that deliver terrific fuel economy. That is not the case here in America, land of the big truck and big horse" and, he added, " the big American."

The new federal regulations will also fail to lower the U.S. dependency on petroleum and imported oil, Lutz said. The best near-term solution to doing that is to adopt more E-85, ethanol-burning vehicles.

" It's just common sense," Lutz said. " You don't roll over the whole fleet at once. It takes decades -- and the bigger the price disparity between the old ones and the new ones, the longer it takes."

Making a dent

GM's goal for electrically driven vehicles is attainable, but Lutz said it will take many years for those vehicles to be on the road in volumes to really make much of a dent in petroleum usage.

He argues a faster solution is E-85. There are already more than 6 million flex-fuel vehicles on the road right now in the U.S. alone. Those vehicles could be running on ethanol if it were more readily available, Lutz said.

If all the flex-fuel vehicles that GM, Ford Motor Co., and Chrysler LLC have committed to have on the road by 2020 were to run on ethanol, that could displace 29 billion gallons of gasoline annually, Lutz points out. That is roughly equivalent to 18 percent of America's projected petroleum usage in 2020, he said.

He said other benefits of E-85 include that it's better for the environment, it doesn't have to be imported and it requires little change in consumer behavior.

On the other hand, he said with diesel fuel at the same price as gasoline in the United States, there won't be many Americans willing to pay a " $3,000 to $4,000 premium" for diesel vehicles unless GM is willing to eat that cost.

Lutz also reiterated GM's stance that electrically driven vehicles powered by lithium-ion batteries are the long-term future of the automobile industry. He argues that naysayers don't understand that not all lithium-ion technology is created equal.

" It's like beer. Some people say beer tastes bad. But there are many different types. U.S. beer, imported beer. You've got pilsner, ale, stout, wheat beer," Lutz said. " Some beers are better than others. Just because somebody said one particular lithium ion technology is a little bit aggressive and it's been known to cause thermal problems, does not mean they all do. The technology is advancing every day."

Edited January 24, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Thanks for posting the rest of that,PCS.

It's clear to me that Lutz at least understands the realities of American car-buying tastes.

That's a good thing.

It is also good to hear him pushing E-85 and other biofuels.

Logic prevails?

I hope so.

Change the fuel, not the cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

Diesel has more energy per gallon than gasoline or ethanol.

Diesel can be made from bio matter.

Diesel takes substantially less energy to refine than gasoline.

diesel FTW.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Thanks for posting the rest of that,PCS.

It's clear to me that Lutz at least understands the realities of American car-buying tastes.

That's a good thing.

It is also good to hear him pushing E-85 and other biofuels.

Logic prevails?

I hope so.

Change the fuel, not the cars.

I doubt you will want to be humming around in your new Electric car either, but until then small cars with diesel will have to do.

Edited January 24, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

I doubt you will want to be humming around in your new Electric car either, but until then small cars with diesel will have to do.

Small cars will never do, diesel or otherwise.

I really have no choice about it either, I will always need my Silverado daily.

The good part is, anything else I might own needn't get high mileage.

I will always have my V8 toys.

No small cars for me, thank you.

[Z-06]

So more than media it is insiders (GME cough cough) who are raising the rumors of Lutz retiring, so that Pecker Subaru Forestor and cohorts can take over.

[ZL-1]

Diesel has more energy per gallon than gasoline or ethanol.

Diesel can be made from bio matter.

Diesel takes substantially less energy to refine than gasoline.

diesel FTW.

You forgot one: diesel can be subsidized by being taxed less than gasoline, making it easier to recoup higher MSRP for diesel cars. That's an important part of the economics of diesel popularity here in Europe. :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Small cars will never do, diesel or otherwise.

I really have no choice about it either, I will always need my Silverado daily.

The good part is, anything else I might own needn't get high mileage.

I will always have my V8 toys.

No small cars for me, thank you.

You may change your mind when gas prices are 8 bucks or more a gallon like the Europeans, you just may cry UNCLE!

[Camino LS6]

You may change your mind when gas prices are 8 bucks or more a gallon like the Europeans, you just may cry UNCLE!

No chance, my friend.

As I said before, I have no choice day-to-day. The truck is a requirement, you and everyone else will just have to pay more to cover the fuel expenses of every contractor that works on your home.

Meantime, I will drive my toys no matter the cost. I don't drive them enough miles to care about the per gallon price.

Of Course, it might be fun to convert to E-85. :AH-HA_wink:

Never under-estimate the lengths an enthusiast will go to to drive what he wants.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So more than media it is insiders (GME cough cough) who are raising the rumors of Lutz retiring, so that Pecker Subaru Forestor and cohorts can take over.

I haven't a clue as to what that's supposed to mean, but hey, English is not my 1st language.

[Z-06]

No chance, my friend.

As I said before, I have no choice day-to-day. The truck is a requirement, you and everyone else will just have to pay more to cover the fuel expenses of every contractor that works on your home.

Meantime, I will drive my toys no matter the cost. I don't drive them enough miles to care about the per gallon price.

Of Course, it might be fun to convert to E-85. :AH-HA_wink:

Never under-estimate the lengths an enthusiast will go to to drive what he wants.

What about those 2.5 FWD vehicles you may consider buying? Will you drive one of those?

[SuperSport623]

i hear E85 conversions on carb'd cars are realllly easy

Edited January 24, 2008 by SuperSport623

[Camino LS6]

And don't forget that Americans won't give up their ATVs, Boats, Snowmoblies,Watercraft Horse trailers...

You are still pissing into the wind on this one.

[Camino LS6]

What about those 2.5 FWD vehicles you may consider buying? Will you drive one of those?

You've lost me there.

[Z-06]

You've lost me there.

3 not 2.5

Linkity

[Camino LS6]

3 not 2.5

Linkity

Ah, ok.

Here's where that stands. I still admire all three. The only one I'd consider for purchase new would be the Volt, simply because it represents such a quantum shift in technology. That said, if it loses its look too badly getting to production, I'll skip it. The HHR would be hard to resist if it were RWD or AWD, but FWD is the dealbreaker there. The Mini is horribly overpriced even used, so I will admire it from a distance.

EDIT: And, as long as cars like G8, Camaro, the Kappas etc, are still around the FWDs don't stand much of a chance. Not to mention, that there is a whole host of used cars I'd rather have than any of the FWDs new.

[Camino LS6]

i hear E85 conversions on carb'd cars are realllly easy

I'm planning to look into it for Project Camino. I want FI though.

[-Camaro-]

Small cars suck and are not safe. You can not make a coffin on wheels safe in a freeway crash.

Diesels, Sadly I disagree with him here as the cost of diesel is offset over the long run by the higher gas milage. Just a matter of marketing and with the right message you can change perception.

My thoughts on the topic.

Not where I live it's not offset. It's way over premium.

[Camino LS6]

Not where I live it's not offset. It's way over premium.

Same here.

[ocnblu]

E-85 and Biodiesel... without losing vehicle size, with a mix of small to large vehicles... sounds like a plan. An HHR with diesel power would be a fantastic little hauler, if the engine is reasonably priced. I love torque.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

For the crowd cheering on subcompact cars at GM, I ask you to show me one subcompact car that offers impressive styling and performance and space. The answer is: you cannot. These cars are so limited, it's downright pathetic. I am a buyer who appreciates a car that delivers: 1. exceptional space (it doesn't have to be a land barge, mind you, just enough space behind the seats to bring some friends or family along for a trip or to haul around a few bags of things from the store), 2. exceptional performance, and 3. exceptional design (the deal breaker).

Small cars fail in my opinion and I'll never drive one. Not now. Not ever. There are only a handful of compact cars, in my opinion, that even get close to making the cut. There will never be a subcompact one. I suppose I'll just keep being one of the stubborn ones, and, when I'm 55, growing old, and want a new car, just pay the premium for the car I want. I don't care. This is something I don't want to be forced into and I refuse to be forced into.

Now that my rant is out of the way, I do approve that GM is willing find solutions without damaging it's offerings. Lutz should reconsider his position on diesels as option, however. There are some people out there who don't care about paying a premium to get what they want (sounds like someone I know ). GM might could also help make the premium less if they had a plant in the U.S. that would build more diesels for it's car range, too, and not just source them from Europe (source the designs, yes, but not the engines themselves). I know there are ways to reduce the premium, and GM should look into them.

Edited January 25, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Drew Dowdell]

Mini-Cooper?

Astra.... if they brought the better engines over

HHR SS EIEIO

[Oracle of Delphi]

For the crowd cheering on subcompact cars at GM, I ask you to show me one subcompact car that offers impressive styling and performance and space. The answer is: you cannot. These cars are so limited, it's downright pathetic. I am a buyer who appreciates a car that delivers: 1. exceptional space (it doesn't have to be a land barge, mind you, just enough space behind the seats to bring some friends or family along for a trip or to haul around a few bags of things from the store), 2. exceptional performance, and 3. exceptional design (the deal breaker).

Small cars fail in my opinion and I'll never drive one. Not now. Not ever. There are only a handful of compact cars, in my opinion, that even get close to making the cut. There will never be a subcompact one. I suppose I'll just keep being one of the stubborn ones, and, when I'm 55, growing old, and want a new car, just pay the premium for the car I want. I don't care. This is something I don't want to be forced into and I refuse to be forced into.

Now that my rant is out of the way, I do approve that GM is willing find solutions without damaging it's offerings. Lutz should reconsider his position on diesels as option, however. There are some people out there who don't care about paying a premium to get what they want (sounds like someone I know ). GM might could also help make the premium less if they had a plant in the U.S. that would build more diesels for it's car range, too, and not just source them from Europe (source the designs, yes, but not the engines themselves). I know there are ways to reduce the premium, and GM should look into them.

Excuse me but I have a question, you say you are a buyer who appreciates a car that delivers: 1. exceptional space (it doesn't have to be a land barge, mind you, just enough space behind the seats to bring some friends or family along for a trip or to haul around a few bags of things from the store), 2. exceptional performance, and 3. exceptional design (the deal breaker). That's all very nice, but what new car have you ever bought that has all those things? I don't mean your parents or Grandma, etc, but you, yourself. I am interested in knowing what you have bought in the past. I'm just curious.

[Camino LS6]

Excuse me but I have a question, you say you are a buyer who appreciates a car that delivers: 1. exceptional space (it doesn't have to be a land barge, mind you, just enough space behind the seats to bring some friends or family along for a trip or to haul around a few bags of things from the store), 2. exceptional performance, and 3. exceptional design (the deal breaker). That's all very nice, but what new car have you ever bought that has all those things? I don't mean your parents or Grandma, etc, but you, yourself. I am interested in knowing what you have bought in the past. I'm just curious.

What matters is what he chooses to buy in the future, not what he may have purchased in the past.

No? :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Excuse me but I have a question, you say you are a buyer who appreciates a car that delivers: 1. exceptional space (it doesn't have to be a land barge, mind you, just enough space behind the seats to bring some friends or family along for a trip or to haul around a few bags of things from the store), 2. exceptional performance, and 3. exceptional design (the deal breaker). That's all very nice, but what new car have you ever bought that has all those things? I don't mean your parents or Grandma, etc, but you, yourself. I am interested in knowing what you have bought in the past. I'm just curious.

If you are concerned with what I have owned in the past, so far, I have owned two 1998MY GMT325 trucks (the first an S-10, then, and currently, a Sonoma). One was given to me, the other I am paying for. The reason I wanted another S-Series truck (the Sonoma) is because my S-10 held up very well when it was totaled, and these vehicles also have lots of styling and performance potential thanks to the aftermarket. Also, stock, the styling is nice and clean and is pleasant, and while the 2.2 in my truck is not an LS2 by any means, the power has gotten better once I started adding modifications (air filter, removed the rattling catalytic converter, and reflashed the ECU) and because I also can do all the shifting for myself, I can get more torque and horsepower out of the engine between shifts; so it has decent pep. And while it may not have particularly a lot of people room, it does have plenty of cargo room (I don't need to say why, do I?).

As far as I'm concerned, this truck met 2.5 goals of the 3 total I have for a car. It would have met all 3 if it had a larger cab (read: extended cab, crew cab) ... or, yes, if I didn't buy it and bought a car instead that fit my criteria. (The deciding factor why I have this truck, and will continue to own this truck, is because I know how well built these little trucks are and how well they hold up in an accident. Plus, it being able to haul my Honda Rancher around and it being rear-drive doesn't hurt one bit.)

But, if you want to know what really counts ... well, Camino said it already before I could add it into my edit.

What matters is what he chooses to buy in the future, not what he may have purchased in the past.

The Camaro addresses all of my 3 of my criteria, so it will be my next (and quite possibly the last) new car purchase for me. If I knew of another GM car that could do what the Camaro does for me, for the reasonable price point that it will probably start at, I would consider it as well. Other manufacturers? Well, only if GM didn't offer it in the first place. I've grown up around GM cars for the most part, and I know first hand how well they hold up, so I'm not going to jump ship if they offer what I want.

Edited January 25, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[haypops]

. I am interested in knowing what you have bought in the past. I'm just curious.

R17 Renault, Peugeot 403, 404(x2), Fiat 600, Mazda RX2, Jeep Wrangler (driving without doors is much more fun than a convertible), 1954 Pontiac, 1963 Studebaker Lark, Air cooled VW bus (strangely fun), AMC Gremlin, '65 Corvair, 80's Dodge conversion Van, 1964 Dodge Dart, Mercury Montego (1970 something -fun ), Pontiac Grand Am, Chevy HHR( I bought it with a 84 month warranty and the question is can I outlive it?_, GMC Sonoma, 1973 Pontiac Catalina and a bunch more.

I know you didn't ask me, but I am feeling nostalgic tonight.

[CARBIZ]

Like the Borg say, "You will Adapt."

My first car was a '67 Polara. I loved the size. I hated paying .35 a litre (ah! those were the days - 1979). I went from that to a '82 Dodge Rampage, stick, 2.2 4 banger. Great on gas, kinda fun, I could put 4 or 5 friends in the back with the cap on. From there to a '87 Shadow ES (also brand new) with the turbo. A blast to drive, horrible suspension, decent gas mileage. Then onto my '91 Caprice wagon (new.) I wasn't paying the gas, my company was. I used it to tow my 20' boat to Florida once and up and down Georgian Bay a hundred times. Gas was still under .65 a litre (about $2.50 a U.S. gallon to you folks) when I had the Caprice.

Now, gasoline is $1 a litre ($4) and going to go a lot higher. I barely drive 600 miles a month any more, so gas doesn't affect me that much, but I see no point to driving to work every day in a 4,500 lb pig. Did I mention we export gas to you? Saskatchewan supplies the U.S. with more oil than Kuwait: saw that one today in the National Post.

We are all going to adapt, or die - literally. Lutz probably more than anyone on this board misses the Battlebeasts of yore, but those cars are never coming back. As to V-8 pickups and SUVs, they will become shadows of their current selves. Contractors in the Rest of the World get along just fine with mid-sized and compact pickups.

OR DO YOU THINK THEY LIVE IN GRASS HUTS IN GERMANY AND BRAZIL?

[Camino LS6]

Don't the Borg always lose in the end? :AH-HA_wink:

No compromise.

[CARBIZ]

Don't the Borg always lose in the end? :AH-HA_wink:

No compromise.

We'll never know: the series is cancelled.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Like the Borg say, "You will Adapt."

Uh, I don't drive a 1976 Cadillac Coupe de Ville with the 500 cu. in. V8. (You know, really I wish I do sometimes.) I drive a four-cylinder (the itch to grab up an LS1 out of a Camaro and install it only gets worse in light of this forced "adapting" bull$h!), manual-transmission, compact truck. Click the link in my sig if you don't believe it. I think, for a guy who drives a truck, I'm already pretty well adapted.

And I'll say this again: I don't want a massive XXL land barge. (But there's nothing wrong with one in the first place; to each his own, if that's what someone wants, then, by all means, let them drive it if they can pay for all of the costs.) I've never said that. I don't need it and can't really afford the cost of ownership.

What I do want is a nice, well-designed, mid-sized (at least) coupe with decent performance and preferably rear-wheel drive. I can live with a V6 without a single complaint, but, yes, a V8 is really nice, too.

I couldn't live with anything smaller than a Cobalt or, yes, the Astra. However, it would have to have the top drawer engine. But I still wouldn't be satisfied or happy with the car, so I wouldn't spend my money on it unless it was absolutely my last resort.

I'm not asking for GM to keep building something downright outrageous (A "Gimme a pillarless, sixteen-cylinder, 5 mile to the gallon, Cadillac Sixteen, GM!" is not what I am calling for) in light of the new CAFE we have to put with. Build a rear-drive, mid-sized coupe with decent design, space, and performance, and I will buy it when the time for me to buy a new car arrives. Call it a frigging Chevette, I don't care. Build it as hybrid only, I still really wouldn't care. I know it can't be that hard to build.

IF it is that hard for you, GM, I know Ford, at least, will make it for me, should I choose to get another new car down the road after the Camaro. They have since 1964. It's called THE MUSTANG.

And I know I'm not the only one who wants those things in a new car. If it simply isn't there, I will take my money to the other Two out of the Big Three. If it still isn't there, I will then come back to GM ... but it will be used, not new.

Contractors in the Rest of the World get along just fine with mid-sized and compact pickups.

Don't need to tell me that. I get along with my compact pickup just fine, thanks. I am not a contractor, however. Just someone who hauls an ATV on occasion and hauls different stuff around for family when they need it done. I didn't get a Silverado when I was looking to replace my S10 because I know I didn't need that much of a truck. It would have nice, yes, but the cost didn't really justify it.

And I don't mean any hostility towards you Carbiz. But it seems when someone speaks up and says no to ever owning a subcompact car, they get nothing short of crucified for it. I know that may not have been your intentions, but still. I am not an Aveo or Beat person.

Edited January 25, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

We'll never know: the series is cancelled.

I wouldn't count on that, seems a new movie is on its way.

Star Trek, like performance cars, always comes back just when you think it's all over.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

No chance, my friend.

As I said before, I have no choice day-to-day. The truck is a requirement, you and everyone else will just have to pay more to cover the fuel expenses of every contractor that works on your home.

Meantime, I will drive my toys no matter the cost. I don't drive them enough miles to care about the per gallon price.

Of Course, it might be fun to convert to E-85. :AH-HA_wink:

Never under-estimate the lengths an enthusiast will go to to drive what he wants.

+1

Let gas hit $8/gallon... My V8 cars are lucky to see 500 miles per year.

That's still only $400 in gas each year per car. And the more toys I get, the more the mileage goes down.

Edited January 25, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Z-06]

Frankly I do not see myself downgrading to a smaller car even with a $10/gallon. And I was brought up in the country where smaller cars rule.

Let GME have all those for themselves.

I may downgrade to a V-6, but that is as much I will go. And I DO NOT want my favorite car (Vette) to see that mill in it.

[Camino LS6]

[Drew Dowdell]

I'll just buy older cars, avoid car payments to GM <smooth move exlax> and spend the money on fuel instead.

There will be plenty of used CTS-Vs, GTOs, Lincoln LSes out there when the dumb asses who just have to have the newest thing trade them in as gas approaches $10. Their resale value will tank and people like Camino and I.... who used to buy new GMs, only buy used.

[Camino LS6]

Everybody ready? :AH-HA_wink:

[Z-06]

I'll just buy older cars, avoid car payments to GM <smooth move exlax> and spend the money on fuel instead.

There will be plenty of used CTS-Vs, GTOs, Lincoln LSes out there when the dumb asses who just have to have the newest thing trade them in as gas approaches $10. Their resale value will tank and people like Camino and I.... who used to buy new GMs, only buy used.

Add my name too.

[SuperSport623]

just cause i wont buy a new car doesnt mean i wont have fun with projects.... lately ive been dreaming up an LS1 fiero:wub:

i have thousands of them... f@#k cafe...as long as i can still buy project cars, ill make the cars GM wont anymore

[Oracle of Delphi]

just cause i wont buy a new car doesnt mean i wont have fun with projects.... lately ive been dreaming up an LS1 fiero:wub:

i have thousands of them... f@#k cafe...as long as i can still buy project cars, ill make the cars GM wont anymore

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

[loki]

Diesel has more energy per gallon than gasoline or ethanol.

Diesel can be made from any carbon containing trash

Diesel takes substantially less energy to refine than gasoline.

diesel FTW.

Corrected

[Z-06]

V-8 Not Dead at GM - Linkity

DETROIT — Afficionados of the grand ol' American V8 moaned when news came last month that General Motors killed an ambitious program that was well on its way to developing a sophisticated, all-new DOHC V8 architecture. The so-called "Ultra" V8, or UV8 in GM parlance, was to replace the aging Northstar in a variety of GM premium cars, but was mainly earmarked for Cadillac.

Yeah, the UV8 program is shelved, Tom Stephens, GM's group vice president for global powertrain and quality, told Inside Line at the recent Detroit auto show — but he says don't be in a hurry to write any obituaries for the V8 at GM.

First, the ubiquitous small-block V8 architecture remains for any number of applications, including the Corvette, obviously, and Cadillac's high-power V-Series models. GM will go out of business — or be taken over by Greenpeace — before it ever kills its historic small-block V8 architecture.

Second, although in the decision to shelve the UV8, Stephens says, "I think we did the right thing for this moment in time," the UV8 development is "wrapped up with a bow," and the program could be revisited in the future, if market conditions warrant.

In fact, Stephens teased us by saying the UV8 is "as refined as anything in the history of internal-combustion engines. It was the quietest engine we've ever tested."

He also says that while it has been assumed the long-in-the-tooth Northstar V8 would be discontinued by around 2010-'11, "you'll have to wait and see," regarding the ultimate fate of the V8 that has been in production since being introduced in the '93 Allante roadster. The insinuation is clear: Keeping the old Northstar around longer than planned now may be an option for premium-car customers who still insist on seeing a V8 when they lift the hood.

But Stephens says GM already has observed a change in consumers' engine preferences: At the Cadillac division, 85 percent of buyers for the SRX crossover and STS luxury sedan are opting for the 3.6-liter DOHC V6 instead of the Northstar 4.6-liter V8. GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner recently said buyers of Chevrolet's hot new Malibu midsize sedan also are opting more for the car's base four-cylinder engine than GM planners anticipated.

[Cory Wolfe]

Not that I disagree or anything... but... Would you like some cheese with your whine, too? You're starting to sound like a broken record.

Personally, I don't see any reason to ever buy new in the first place. I can find many delightful used cars to satisfy me. New cars are overrated. I don't mind smaller cars, either. Size isn't an issue with me and all I really care about is the drivers area. Back seat room? Pfft... If someone wants to ride along, they can suffeeeeerrrrrr....

Course, you're not going to find me driving around in a box.

Edited January 25, 2008 by blackviper8891

[Z-06]

Size isn't an issue with me

Please note this date and time. When he starts looking around for poking and proding, make sure that person is not asked about the size by BV.

[Intrepidation]

Course, you're not going to find me driving around in a box.

Are you sure? What if they brought that Mazda in your sig stateside?

[Cory Wolfe]

Please note this date and time. When he starts looking around for poking and proding, make sure that person is not asked about the size by BV.

Are you sure? What if they brought that Mazda in your sig stateside?

I'd laugh, I'd cry... I'd shout, I'd die... That's about it.

Edited January 25, 2008 by blackviper8891

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Not that I disagree or anything... but... Would you like some cheese with your whine, too? You're starting to sound like a broken record.

Not if the cheese is blue cheese.