Opel to spin off, GM will retain stake

[BigPontiac]

Link to Article

After a day of worker protests across Europe at various General Motors plants, news comes today from Carl-Peter Foster (above), head of GM Europe, that Opel is planning to reorganize itself as a joint-stock company. GM would basically give up between 25-50 percent of its stake in the spun off company, with the hope that outside investors would make up the rest. The reorg would also likely include concessions by workers for lower pay as well as a restructuring plan to lower operating costs. The main obstacle to separating Opel from GM in the past has been the degree to which the two are intertwined, but a joint-stock company in which GM remains the largest shareholder allows the two to operate as closely as ever while severing some of those ties that bind. It may also set the stage for a detangling of Opel's models from GM's product portfolio over time, which would facilitate the outright separation of the brand from its parent company in the future.

In the meantime, Opel needs approximately 3.3 billion euros or $4.2 billion USD to stay solvent and GM is in talks with governments in Spain, the UK and Germany about receiving government aid. Opel is also submitting a business plan by the end of next week to four German states in which it operates plants, and the German federal government headed by Chancellor Angela Merkel will receive a similar plan by this Monday, March 2.

[BigPontiac]

CNN Article

[buyacargetacheck]

Seems like this might be a good joint venture opportunity for Daimler and BMW where each has an equal investment that adds up to a majority stake. German government cash would be used to recapitalize the company and minimize Daimler's and BMW's risk. However, it's hard to see that happening without GM becoming a minority stakeholder.

[Intrepidation]

Crazy times we live in. I guess atbloke was right.

[regfootball]

why has no one mentioned, 'does Germany really need another car manufacturer'? In theory they would benefit more from being part of GM. Now they are cast into the albatross of the other German makes.

[ZL-1]

So... is this a way to do some asset stripping without the executives landing themselves in jail for screwing the shareholders?

[David]

So I would say this gives them a 50/50 chance they will still be around in 10 years. Maybe it is time for a few more auto companies to become history lessons.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Finally Opel can start to breathe the Air of Freedom, how easy was that, one little protest and viola ...

Now I hear GMDAT is seeking their freedom too, looks like all of GM's children want to go their own way ...

Interesting times we live in ...

[Intrepidation]

Only problem for those who want to spin off is that none of their product are exactly compelling/class leading with the exception of maybe the new Insignia.

"Yay! we're free! erm...now what?"

Unless I'm mistaken, GME has been calling the shots for a while now, so it's not GM's fault that most of the product is still lackluster. Of course I could be wrong, don't know the workings inside, that's just what it looks like from the outside.

[David]

Only problem for those who want to spin off is that none of their product are exactly compelling/class leading with the exception of maybe the new Insignia.

"Yay! we're free! erm...now what?"

Unless I'm mistaken, GME has been calling the shots for a while now, so it's not GM's fault that most of the product is still lackluster. Of course I could be wrong, don't know the workings inside, that's just what it looks like from the outside.

--------------------

Nope your not mistaken, GME has been callin many shots and missing most attempts.

[Oracle of Delphi]

--------------------

Nope your not mistaken, GME has been callin many shots and missing most attempts.

Let's see how well GM does without us, shall we? Whatever stake they have in the new Opel will have to be sold sooner than you think to repay the U.S Government's loans ...

[CSpec]

Did GMNA see this coming a while ago and that's why they started a big push with Chevy in Europe?

[wildcat]

Whatever stake they have in the new Opel will have to be sold

Presuming GMNA survives, what will this mean for Buick product that is just now aligning with Opel? Or do you think eventually Buick will become a China-owned operation that - possibly - exports cars to NA?

Edited February 27, 2009 by wildcat

[David]

Let's see how well GM does without us, shall we? Whatever stake they have in the new Opel will have to be sold sooner than you think to repay the U.S Government's loans ...

Fine, I can see GM selling off their stake in a few years repaying the GOV and all will be good.

Did GMNA see this coming a while ago and that's why they started a big push with Chevy in Europe?

Yup I agree that GM was looking for a way to spin of the Socialist arm of GME and using their own Chevy/Buick/Cadillac to grow in Europe.

Now is the time to dump the Unions and move towards a true non union setup.

[pow]

Opel has the weakest identity and the blandest cars of all German automakers... like Chrylser or GM, it'll exist solely to provide jobs.

[buyacargetacheck]

Clearly Opel is a basket case. No wonder: it operates primarily in a high cost, high competition market among better players. You know a company/business is in trouble when they believe the way to survival is moving upmarket. IT NEVER WORKS. Opel doesn't have a ghost of a chance without help from the German government and German investors. Prediction: Opel will become the first German government-controlled automaker since VEB Sachsenring.

[David]

Clearly Opel is a basket case. No wonder: it operates primarily in a high cost, high competition market among better players. You know a company/business is in trouble when they believe the way to survival is moving upmarket. IT NEVER WORKS. Opel doesn't have a ghost of a chance without help from the German government and German investors. Prediction: Opel will become the first German government-controlled automaker since VEB Sachsenring.

Totally Agree with you here. OPEL

[buyacargetacheck]

Opels as Buicks is a silly dream that won't happen. Buick itself will have a hard time surviving Cadillac's financial need to move downmarket where the sales (and hopefully profits) are in the New Great Depression. That's if Cadillac survives. GM doesn't have the luxury of making China-specific marketing moves without regard to its overall financial strength in NA just to protect its position in China any longer.

Presuming GMNA survives, what will this mean for Buick product that is just now aligning with Opel? Or do you think eventually Buick will become a China-owned operation that - possibly - exports cars to NA?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Presuming GMNA survives, what will this mean for Buick product that is just now aligning with Opel? Or do you think eventually Buick will become a China-owned operation that - possibly - exports cars to NA?

At this point I couldn't really tell you. I have to make some personal choices myself. I can officially retire April 10, 2009 from GM with 20 years of service. Then I will have to decide either not to retire and stay with GM, or pick door number 2 and start with the new Opel in the same position I currently have, or door number three, go with another German automaker that has been holding a job for me, waiting for me to retire ...

I love choices, remember change is good ...

[David]

Opels as Buicks is a silly dream that won't happen. Buick itself will have a hard time surviving Cadillac's financial need to move downmarket where the sales (and hopefully profits) are in the New Great Depression. That's if Cadillac survives. GM doesn't have the luxury of making China-specific marketing moves without regard to its overall financial strength in NA just to protect its position in China any longer.

-------------------

Very Possibly correct.

[David]

At this point I couldn't really tell you. I have to make some personal choices myself. I can officially retire April 10, 2009 from GM with 20 years of service. Then I will have to decide either not to retire and stay with GM, or pick door number 2 and start with the new Opel in the same position I currently have, or door number three, go with another German automaker that has been holding a job for me, waiting for me to retire ...

I love choices, remember change is good ...

Good Luck, sounds like you have a nice choice at least. Very rare in todays economy. Hopefully it all is still there.

[BigPontiac]

At this point I couldn't really tell you. I have to make some personal choices myself. I can officially retire April 10, 2009 from GM with 20 years of service. Then I will have to decide either not to retire and stay with GM, or pick door number 2 and start with the new Opel in the same position I currently have, or door number three, go with another German automaker that has been holding a job for me, waiting for me to retire ...

I love choices, remember change is good ...

Retire and take the job with BMW.

[Chazman]

Who will own the rights to things like Epsilon or Delta?

[Chazman]

Anyway, there is a part of me that sees VERY interesting possibilities here ----- for Chevy and Cadillac. That is, once the restructuring is all said and done.

Opel is on a very slippery slope. The German government will need to be very generous with them, since I don't see them becoming a "European" success story any time soon.

[Robert Hall]

Wow...wonder what will happen to Vauxhall and Holden.

[Chazman]

Wow...wonder what will happen to Vauxhall and Holden.

Vauxhall isn't going anywhere - in fact there are reports that the UK government might like to work with GM to create a larger European presence for Vauxhall in a possible post-Opel world.

[evok]

Who will own the rights to things like Epsilon or Delta?

GME - Opel will have to pay royalties just like Chrysler continues to pay to Daimler.

[Chazman]

GME - Opel will have to pay royalties just like Chrysler continues to pay to Daimler.

What does Opel get?

[evok]

What does Opel get?

To lose money on someone else's balance sheet. Their freedom to become the German FIAT. A ward of the German government?

GM owns the designs so they would have to pay.

Edited February 28, 2009 by evok

[regfootball]

Only problem for those who want to spin off is that none of their product are exactly compelling/class leading with the exception of maybe the new Insignia.

"Yay! we're free! erm...now what?"

Unless I'm mistaken, GME has been calling the shots for a while now, so it's not GM's fault that most of the product is still lackluster. Of course I could be wrong, don't know the workings inside, that's just what it looks like from the outside.

hasnt opel won best of show at one of the major EU car shows 3 of the last 4 years?

[Intrepidation]

hasnt opel won best of show at one of the major EU car shows 3 of the last 4 years?

I don't now, but the brand is a joke among Europeans, even non-car enthusiasts.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't now, but the brand is a joke among Europeans, even non-car enthusiasts.

You know a lot of Europeans do you?

[Intrepidation]

I know a lot of Europeans.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I know a lot of Europeans.

I mean besides 68.

[Intrepidation]

I mean besides 68.

Yes.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes.

I mean besides 68, ZL-1 and myself?

[Intrepidation]

Again, Yes.

[gmcbob]

I dunno, I'm a little bummed about this. It sounds like GM still would have a majority stake in Opel, but that it would basically be the beginning of the end for the two organizations working as close as they do now on product development, definitely. Honestly, I think the new product that GME had a part in developing (like the upcoming LaCrosse) looks really good.

I was really looking forward to seeing more GME influence over here in NA (I know if we were all sitting around at the local bar together having beers right now somewhere here in the US most of you would boo me out of the room for saying that), but c'mon guys - lets face it - the Europeans build some pretty desirable small and mid size front drivers, just the stuff GM needs right now to comply with the new CAFE regulations. I don't think it hurts GM in the least to have this small and mid size car resource to go to when they need something viable for the NA market (like Ford has).

Who knows, GM will still have quite a bit of resources once all of the dust clears I think.

Incidentally, maybe PCS can shed some light for me - but what in the world exactly is my Saturn Vue? Wikipedia says the Theta platform was originally designed by GMNA, but that the 2008 Vue was designed by Daewoo. I thought the new Vue's platform was GME based off an original GMNA platform?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Incidentally, maybe PCS can shed some light for me - but what in the world exactly is my Saturn Vue? Wikipedia says the Theta platform was originally designed by GMNA, but that the 2008 Vue was designed by Daewoo. I thought the new Vue's platform was GME based off an original GMNA platform?

The platform was developed by GM and Suzuki Motors, but a substantial part of work for the upgraded 2006 Theta-based models was done by GMDAT and GM's Shanghai, China engineering operation, Pan-Asia Technical Automotive Center, it was heavily influenced by GME engineering too, so it would be able to meet EU specs.

[GMTruckGuy74]

The platform was developed by GM and Suzuki Motors, but a substantial part of work for the upgraded 2006 Theta-based models was done by GMDAT and GM's Shanghai, China engineering operation, Pan-Asia Technical Automotive Center, it was heavily influenced by GME engineering too, so it would be able to meet EU specs.

Talk about being a mutt!! :rotflmao:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Talk about being a mutt!! :rotflmao:

Oh and I forgot, the Vue is built in Mexico ... So yeah what a mutt indeed, welcome to a Global GM ...

[ocnblu]

I don't detect any love when I read reviews for Euro GM products in the British car buff mags. I can't read German, so I cannot comment on their buff books. They are constantly dressed down as dull, boring to drive, or not well-engineered.

Of course, we have that here as well, regarding our buff press v. some GM products, but for the life of me I just cannot fathom anyone being an Opel fan. Here in the US, they failed as a stand-alone brand, small companion to Buick, Japanese small companion to Buick, Korean small Pontiac, and now as a Saturn Astra. It's been failure after failure in the US for Opel. Where's the Allure?

[ZL-1]

Where's the Allure?

In...... errrrrr....... Canada?

Seriously now: Perhaps it's not in Opel models themselves, but the way Saturn was built as abrand. GM wanted Saturn to change its image from 'budget' to 'Euro', but all it got at 1st was a rebodied G6 with a Vectra-like front end... and when it got the Astra, Vue, and so on, where was the massive advertising/awareness-building campaign?

Edited February 28, 2009 by ZL-1

[gmcbob]

Oh and I forgot, the Vue is built in Mexico ... So yeah what a mutt indeed, welcome to a Global GM ...

Yeah, no kidding - it really is a true Heinz 57.

With that said however, for being a mutt it drives pretty nice (for what it is), has some of the best interior materials I've ever had in any of the cars I've ever personally owned from GM, and overall, it feels pretty solidly built. For what I paid, it's not a bad little car.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't detect any love when I read reviews for Euro GM products in the British car buff mags. I can't read German, so I cannot comment on their buff books. They are constantly dressed down as dull, boring to drive, or not well-engineered.

Of course, we have that here as well, regarding our buff press v. some GM products, but for the life of me I just cannot fathom anyone being an Opel fan. Here in the US, they failed as a stand-alone brand, small companion to Buick, Japanese small companion to Buick, Korean small Pontiac, and now as a Saturn Astra. It's been failure after failure in the US for Opel. Where's the Allure?

The Brits don't like any vehicle that is not British, the trouble with that is, 99.99% is owned by foreign automakers. Once GM has to sell their interest in Opel (and GM Holden & GMDAT) to pay the Feds back for their Survival Loans, if they survive that is, and that's a big if from where I'm standing, I no longer see GM as a global player without Opel, GM will be little more than a North American brand.

Of course you don't get Opel, you're not European ...

[Oracle of Delphi]

In...... errrrrr....... Canada?

Seriously now: Perhaps it's not in Opel models themselves, but the way Saturn was built as abrand. GM wanted Saturn to change its image from 'budget' to 'Euro', but all it got at 1st was a rebodied G6 with a Vectra-like front end... and when it got the Astra, Vue, and so on, where was the massive advertising/awareness-building campaign?

And GMNA asked for the old Astra to be shipped over instead of waiting for the new one, once again the Loony Labyrinth of backstabbing RenCen bureaucrats that is GMNA shoots themselves in the foot ...

Edited February 28, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[gmcbob]

So PCS, do you like the company you work for or not? I'm confused when I read your posts.

On the one hand, you seem to generally take some pride in your history with the company and the company itself, going so far as to to defend certain programs and factories (in NA) that you were once a part of. But on the other hand, you tend to show wholehearted disgust with how GM conducts itself in the global market place (especially GMNA).

Edited February 28, 2009 by gmcbob

[Oracle of Delphi]

So PCS, do you like the company you work for or not? I'm confused when I read your posts.

On the one hand, you seem to generally take some pride in your history with the company and the company itself, going so far as to to defend certain programs and factories (in NA) that you were once a part of. But on the other hand, you tend to show wholehearted disgust with how GM conducts itself in the global market place (especially GMNA).

That's hard for me to answer right now, after all I'm coming up on 20 years of service in April of this year. I started my career in the Arlington, TX assembly plant, near Dallas, through the years I've worked in so many divisions of GM (CPC - Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group, BOC - Buick-Oldsmobile-Cadillac, LAD - Lansing Automotive Division, Saturn, Opel, GME). I am very loyal to CPF, if he goes to Opel, I may go too, if he stays with GME, I may too, however because of him the door for me to go to another German car manufacturer has opened up for me should I choose to go through it. With GM at the crossroads that it seems to be, I need to choose carefully.

I do blame GMNA for many things it did and even for things it failed to do, squandered opportunities as it were, GM could have been so much better than it is today, what a shame. Perhaps I'll write a book about it someday, then again I doubt it would sell, because the American public doesn't give a rats ass about it's own car industry.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Intrepidation]

I just don't like the fact that GME is made out to seem like it can do no wrong, like it is the savior, when I seriously doubt that is the case.

[Camino LS6]

I no longer see GM as a global player without Opel, GM will be little more than a North American brand.

This might be a good thing for all concerned.