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hyperv6

ATS Results are in and They are Good Very Good!

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The only glaring omission, if you are trying to topple the top competitor, is the lack of manual transmission on all the models as BMW has it. Given it is a SPORTS sedan.

Otherwise the car has hit its mark much to the chargin of the BMW devotees. Denial and resistance is first phase of acceptance.

I personally would have preferred a turbocharged lineup. But once GM's new small engine family comes in we may see a 1.6T/1.8T replacing the 2.5. But then again old GM reared its ugly head in engine choices. If Regal can get two variants of the 2.0T why did not the ATS.

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The only glaring omission, if you are trying to topple the top competitor, is the lack of manual transmission on all the models as BMW has it. Given it is a SPORTS sedan.

Otherwise the car has hit its mark much to the chargin of the BMW devotees. Denial and resistance is first phase of acceptance.

I personally would have preferred a turbocharged lineup. But once GM's new small engine family comes in we may see a 1.6T/1.8T replacing the 2.5. But then again old GM reared its ugly head in engine choices. If Regal can get two variants of the 2.0T why did not the ATS.

In taking a look at BMW sales for 2012, while across the board with all divisions sales are up 15.2%, Manual tranny makes up only 1.5%. I wonder if the lack of manual is due to upper mgmt looking at it and asking does it make sense to offer it at the cost to build and test it? MB has about the same percentage and Audi is just under 1%. Now this was just looking at the US market. Compare to world sales and of course manual tranny jumps up big time.

This then begs the question, if Cadillac is wanting to get back into Europe / Global sales, then why would they not realize the large percentage of Manual drivers and build the Tranny to support these engines as a Global Tranny.

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I wouldn't bother offering the manual on the 2.5, the people who buy the car with that engine won't care.

The 2.0T is the "sporty" car of the bunch having performance rivaling the 3.6, so it get's the manual.

The 3.6 V6 is for driving the AWD system and will mostly be purchased by upper middle class housewives (Your wife excluded Z) but most are not going to care if it doesn't have a manual.

The 3.0TT V6 or the LSV8 is the ATS-V and will certainly come with a manual.

Seems like a fare distribution to me.

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This then begs the question, if Cadillac is wanting to get back into Europe / Global sales, then why would they not realize the large percentage of Manual drivers and build the Tranny to support these engines as a Global Tranny.

Just because they aren't offering it here doesn't mean they aren't offering it in Europe. Engine/Transmission combinations need to be certified for sale in the US in each car. That takes money to do. They could very well have an all manual lineup available in the ATS for the EU because that's where it would sell.

The bigger omission is the lack of a diesel at the moment, but I suspect that will come for Europe at least.

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Disagree with both of you on that count. Bigger engine and manual transmission are not and should not be mutually exclusive. In fact the take rate of manual transmissions in a 335i is more than its take rate in 328i. It is the 328i that is the poseur machine. Manual take rate in 3er is more like 12% which is more than industry average take rate of 6.5%. G37 is another car that offers manual transmission with the bigger engine. Cadillac touted at the release of the car on the 20th floor that all trims will have manual transmission (Reuss said it and you and I were present there) till it backtracked in the actual autoshow.

Remember the AWD is also available on the 2.0T so the premise of 3.6 geared for AWD and hence no manual transmission for the engine is not bulletproof.

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Disagree with both of you on that count. Bigger engine and manual transmission are not and should not be mutually exclusive. In fact the take rate of manual transmissions in a 335i is more than its take rate in 328i. It is the 328i that is the poseur machine. Manual take rate in 3er is more like 12% which is more than industry average take rate of 6.5%. G37 is another car that offers manual transmission with the bigger engine. Cadillac touted at the release of the car on the 20th floor that all trims will have manual transmission (Reuss said it and you and I were present there) till it backtracked in the actual autoshow.

Remember the AWD is also available on the 2.0T so the premise of 3.6 geared for AWD and hence no manual transmission for the engine is not bulletproof.

I agree that the lack of a manual is more an issue for reviews and less an issue for real sales. When the average take rate on manual is 7% for the market and while a little higher as you stated in the sport sedans it is still low.

The V series will get it with the TT turbo and it should. We have to keep in mind GM has not shown all the cards here and we have only seen the intro versions of these cars. More good things are to come for the ATS. I would though forget the V8 as it is going to the CTS not the ATS. A 400 plus HP TT V6 will be enough for the light ATS and the CTS will take a the new V8 for the V.

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Automotive journalists may have bias, but the public is even more so biased toward the Germans. You have to give a pretty strong reason not to just by default drive to the BMW or Mercedes dealership in this class. Infiniti came up with a good alternative with the G37, but they are appealing to the people that have gotten too mature for a Civic Si or Mitsubishi Evo or other Japanese rice racer type car. That Japanese loyalist crowd is hard to steal away also.

This is why I wouldn't have the Malibu engine or versions without CUE, because Cadillac needs every trim level to be amazing, not just the upper level ones. If there is to be a 3rd engine choice on this car, it should be a diesel. BMW has an M-diesel in Europe, and AMG is working on a diesel (reportedly over 500 hp and 730 lb-ft), I think Cadillac should look into that so they aren't late to the party.

Edited by smk4565

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Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

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Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

It will be interesting to see what people actually think about these cars after they own them for a couple of years.

I think word on the street (I.e. knowing someone who owns a Cadillac and likes it) will ultimately win Cadillac a lot of sales.

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Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

It will be interesting to see what people actually think about these cars after they own them for a couple of years.

I think word on the street (I.e. knowing someone who owns a Cadillac and likes it) will ultimately win Cadillac a lot of sales.

You are correct about people owning the GMs will be ultimately won by the car.

It is people like smk who don't want GM and who GM is concentrating on as customers for this car should not have problems with the car. For them, they will sit with spec sheets, put information on Excel and compare every nano second, seat position, speakers, leather softness to the incumbent's. GM wants to cater to these customers then it should know what those customers like to do.

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But in a real world sense I think GM is really building better cars now, and I think the cadillac really shows it.

Look at how cheap Subaru paint is....the FRS I test drove was built in a Subaru factory. Awful paint quality...just awful.

You and I (Z06 and me) both have owned BMW products, so I am not picking on BMW when I say this....but I was next to a 6 series convertible (Nearly new) at the gas station. Lots of orange peel in the paint, mismatched gaps in panels, etc. Build quality approached what my 66 Mustang left the factory with maybe....not quite. But you get the point. for a car in its price range...not good.

One of the guys I race with is big into BMW's and runs a body shop, HE will tell you how much better GM's paint quality is than BMW's

Or look at how much nicer the Cadillac interior is than the 300 interior. The 300 interior is really nice, the Cadillac interior is just better.

Again, guys I race with, son owns a late model GTO, father owns an SRT-8 300 Chrysler, the GTO has much nicer interior quality, and it's held up better over the years also. And that isn't even one of the newer, even better GM interiors.

I really think the best thing GM can do right now is get these cars in circulation. The real people paying for them on sixty month notes will be won over. Guys like SMK will drive their 97 Aurora's and bitch that the Caddy can't self levitate....

Edited by A Horse With No Name

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Again no disagreement there. GM is building much better cars, but it is the failure to convey that perception is missing from GM. And when GM misses that opportunity it just sickens me that all those executives have not learned their lessons.

After E46 and may be just may be E92, the BMW group has lost it. Quality sucks, driveability sucks, design is same, the entire store looks staid, boring and vanilla cars filled for higher herds. My E46 seems much better built than the F10, I noticed when I was at the service bay the other day.

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I would agree completely! I am so sad BMW has lot it to the extent they have...but yeah...your E46 is a much better car than the current stuff.

Let's hope Cadillac can market what its got...

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I have an 01 Aurora, and next year it will probably be time to replace it. I've had it 9 years now, and there is a laundry list of things that have gone wrong, and I have spent thousands to fix them. The build quality and reliability has just been too poor, it makes me reluctant to give GM another chance. This is common, it is why GM once had 40% market share and now has 18%.

The ATS on mechanics and specs has a lot I like (aside from the 2.5), but I prefer the C-class in styling in this segment. I think BMWs drive great and are built very well, but I don't care for BMW styling. My question on the ATS is when that car is 10-15 years old will it look and drive similar to when it was new, or will it be falling apart and ready for the scrap yard. GM doesn't have me convinced that their cars are really built to last yet.

Interestingly enough, at this price point, I'd probably take a Genesis 5.0 over the ATS or any of the German compacts, because of the 429 hp DOHC V8. That engine with an 8-speed transmission produces more fun factor to me than these V6 cars do, and it is a much roomier car.

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Again no disagreement there. GM is building much better cars, but it is the failure to convey that perception is missing from GM. And when GM misses that opportunity it just sickens me that all those executives have not learned their lessons.

Agreed. GM is building better, but everyone in the market is building better. GM convincing the naysayers will be their biggest challenge. And on luxury cars the badge matters, sometimes more than the car behind it.

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Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

20 years ago I would have agreed that making 7% of production Manual in a non V would have been a good Idea. But in this day and age where a Ferrari is rare with a gated shifter and Porsche has forgone the Air Cooled Boxer to make SUV's and become more profitable than ever I can not so easily agree. The few Air Cooled purist have adapted to the water cooled car and only a very few cling to the past.

Porsche and most others have learned that catering to the low volume purist is nice but in this say and age profits are what keep the company open and new product coming vs the 7%.

Now on a V series where the voulme may be closer to 15%-20% by all means have at the Manual. But for the 2.5 and non turbo V6 the volume is much too low. Anyone wanting performance would buy the Turbo 4 or coming 6 anyways and they both will have it.

The bottom line this car will do just as well with no manual 2.5 or non turbo V6 in the big picture. Save the money to certify the 2.5 to add more goods to the TT V series where the manual will matter.

I reread the January review of the M3 and AMG. The ATS V should have a good shot as they liked a lot on both cars and hated a lot on both. One had power the other had handlng. If GM can give both they should had a trump card. The only thing I hope is that the new CTS gets a boost with the new V as the ATS should prove to be a very good car in V trim and I hope they don't steal sales from the CTSV.

Todays MFG's can no longer just cater to the fringe as there is little profit. They all are doing it and it just evens the game up for all. The fringe may lose out on some fun combo's but that is life.

Too often the performance fans micro manage things at times that is good but when you split hairs on a non performance sedan for less than 10% of sales that is a little too focused. Save it for the V.

Edited by hyperv6

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Then get it, be happy with it and drive it and stop micro-whining about GM products since regardless of what GM does it is not going to give you an orgasm.

I have an 01 Aurora, and next year it will probably be time to replace it. I've had it 9 years now, and there is a laundry list of things that have gone wrong, and I have spent thousands to fix them. The build quality and reliability has just been too poor, it makes me reluctant to give GM another chance. This is common, it is why GM once had 40% market share and now has 18%.

The ATS on mechanics and specs has a lot I like (aside from the 2.5), but I prefer the C-class in styling in this segment. I think BMWs drive great and are built very well, but I don't care for BMW styling. My question on the ATS is when that car is 10-15 years old will it look and drive similar to when it was new, or will it be falling apart and ready for the scrap yard. GM doesn't have me convinced that their cars are really built to last yet.

Interestingly enough, at this price point, I'd probably take a Genesis 5.0 over the ATS or any of the German compacts, because of the 429 hp DOHC V8. That engine with an 8-speed transmission produces more fun factor to me than these V6 cars do, and it is a much roomier car.

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I have an 01 Aurora, and next year it will probably be time to replace it. I've had it 9 years now, and there is a laundry list of things that have gone wrong, and I have spent thousands to fix them. The build quality and reliability has just been too poor, it makes me reluctant to give GM another chance. This is common, it is why GM once had 40% market share and now has 18%.

The ATS on mechanics and specs has a lot I like (aside from the 2.5), but I prefer the C-class in styling in this segment. I think BMWs drive great and are built very well, but I don't care for BMW styling. My question on the ATS is when that car is 10-15 years old will it look and drive similar to when it was new, or will it be falling apart and ready for the scrap yard. GM doesn't have me convinced that their cars are really built to last yet.

Interestingly enough, at this price point, I'd probably take a Genesis 5.0 over the ATS or any of the German compacts, because of the 429 hp DOHC V8. That engine with an 8-speed transmission produces more fun factor to me than these V6 cars do, and it is a much roomier car.

Okay, sometimes you drive me nuts here, and I just made a sarcastic comment about you in another thread but...

I am also a fellow traveler with you. I feel your pain...I really do. I've owned more GM cars than non GM cars. right now I own two GM trucks, a Mazda (Miata) a BMW (MINI Cooper S) a Toyota (Orign gen Scion xB). Need to buy another car next year, maybe two. son is out of school and drives the XB, and the Miata is possibly going to undergo modification to be more of a track car...and is also showing its age. It is an 02, so I can relate to replacing an 01 Aurora.

I too am looking at the Genesis, but alas the 2.0T Coupe. I do like the 4 door Genesis, and think you will be well served by it.

And yes, I do know GM also has a long history of building crappy cars as well as good ones.

One of the hardest things to me is keeping an open mind both for and against GM when looking at a car. We thought long and hard about a Camaro when we bought the MINI Cooper S, but ultimately (obviously) rejected the idea.

Good luck to you, smk as you look for your next car... and may the best car win.

At least your not in my boat....I'm thinking BRZ/FRS which has its own issues...

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We have just seen the start of the real improved GM cars with the ATS. This is the first complete new car post Chapter 11. The rest of the better cars were just improved old cars or platforms. I was encouraged by what they did with the old stuff and have held great expectations for all the new stuff.

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

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We have just seen the start of the real improved GM cars with the ATS. This is the first complete new car post Chapter 11. The rest of the better cars were just improved old cars or platforms. I was encouraged by what they did with the old stuff and have held great expectations for all the new stuff.

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

Which is why I am going to probably wait for it to come out before I ink a deal...I think stunning is a damned fine word for what it will be.

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Then get it, be happy with it and drive it and stop micro-whining about GM products since regardless of what GM does it is not going to give you an orgasm.

AS frustrated as I get...I can as I said relate a little bit.

Best advice I can give is give everything a good solid test drive when the time comes, and let your gut be your guide...you will know which way to go.

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We have just seen the start of the real improved GM cars with the ATS. This is the first complete new car post Chapter 11. The rest of the better cars were just improved old cars or platforms. I was encouraged by what they did with the old stuff and have held great expectations for all the new stuff.

On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

Which is why I am going to probably wait for it to come out before I ink a deal...I think stunning is a damned fine word for what it will be.

As long as the styling is a winner the car will come in at a weight that will let it do things that more power would never fix. It should turn and stop on a scale few have seen in a car it's price.

I just hope the styling is killer. So far I have yet been able to get anyone to even hint. I think the styling is more closely guarded than the Vette.

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Hyper you are missing the point. Cadillac made it as a no excuse car. Reviews are the ones they should be worried about. Forget the fact that BMW does not have any manual transmission cars on the dealer lots, it is the publicity which BMW puts on its cars. Tense now relax later approach is better for a newcomer when topping an incumbent.

Sales wise it will not make sense, but publicity wise GM has lost the battle as people are already crowing about 3.6. Another example of how media is taken seriously. MT reports 4.7 sec time for the 335i and 5.7 sec fo the ATS 3.6. What it fails to tell is the conditions under which ATS was tested were not controlled. Poseurs are proclaiming how the 3.6 should be compared to the A4 and the 328i.

Like Olds mentioned thin/thick pillars, steering wheels are holding by thread excuses, omission of manual transmission is not.

20 years ago I would have agreed that making 7% of production Manual in a non V would have been a good Idea. But in this day and age where a Ferrari is rare with a gated shifter and Porsche has forgone the Air Cooled Boxer to make SUV's and become more profitable than ever I can not so easily agree. The few Air Cooled purist have adapted to the water cooled car and only a very few cling to the past.

Porsche and most others have learned that catering to the low volume purist is nice but in this say and age profits are what keep the company open and new product coming vs the 7%.

Now on a V series where the voulme may be closer to 15%-20% by all means have at the Manual. But for the 2.5 and non turbo V6 the volume is much too low. Anyone wanting performance would buy the Turbo 4 or coming 6 anyways and they both will have it.

The bottom line this car will do just as well with no manual 2.5 or non turbo V6 in the big picture. Save the money to certify the 2.5 to add more goods to the TT V series where the manual will matter.

I reread the January review of the M3 and AMG. The ATS V should have a good shot as they liked a lot on both cars and hated a lot on both. One had power the other had handlng. If GM can give both they should had a trump card. The only thing I hope is that the new CTS gets a boost with the new V as the ATS should prove to be a very good car in V trim and I hope they don't steal sales from the CTSV.

Todays MFG's can no longer just cater to the fringe as there is little profit. They all are doing it and it just evens the game up for all. The fringe may lose out on some fun combo's but that is life.

Too often the performance fans micro manage things at times that is good but when you split hairs on a non performance sedan for less than 10% of sales that is a little too focused. Save it for the V.

It is about perceptions not sales. GM needs to change perceptions. It should strive in perceiving people that it is indeed making cars that people want. Germans apply the Rommel strategy. In Egypt Rommel used to take his few tanks and run circles around the streets in the city he was occupying. Allied forces thought his strength was much more than his piddly tank numbers, which made them scared from attacking him.

BMW, Mercedes, Audi bring best in US when they are fleet whores in Europe and have lowly and anemic engines. Magazines rave about their products as second coming of Christ, talk about how some glorified greener grass products on the Continent don't make to States and just as snake charmers charm the herd to sing their same tune.

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Again no disagreement there. GM is building much better cars, but it is the failure to convey that perception is missing from GM. And when GM misses that opportunity it just sickens me that all those executives have not learned their lessons.

Agreed. GM is building better, but everyone in the market is building better. GM convincing the naysayers will be their biggest challenge. And on luxury cars the badge matters, sometimes more than the car behind it.

Nope, if that was the case Lexus would not have had foothold and now stronghold in USA. Perceptions, Perceptions, Perceptions.

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On paper the new Camaro should be stunning. The only question I hold on it is how much power will the new V8 will have and what will it look like.

What if it doesn't have a V8? (aside from ZL1 trim) Hard to justify the CTS-V being the only Cadillac with a V8, then putting one in the Camaro and Chevy SS which cost much less. CAFE makes GM do weird things. I hope V8s survive, especially on cars regular people can afford. I'd like to see the CTS in non-V form get a V8.

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