Cadillac CTS Sales are Down 41% in 2015

[hyperv6]

Kabong I would stay they have thrown out the good products and that is why they have what they have. But the cars before this were not any better. The last real Lincoln was around 57-58 Continental.  I drove a 51 once that was nice too.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

T movies If you mean Terminators I am not sure I fell asleep after the second one.

 

On the whole I would rather watch Grand Prix in Surround sound. The sound track alone is great.

T as in Transformers.

 

My point eariler, they sucked. Really bad.  The fact that it is just one big GM commercial was my secondary point of contention.  And as I said, I don't think any movie as ever topped them, for their gratuitously annoying product placement.

[hyperv6]

Bud it was just good marketing. If it were a Mustang you would be tenting up right now. LOL!

 

God we really have run this one beyond the final call.

[El Kabong]

But we got it over 200. And in a way that says it all.

...should we go for 2,000?

[smk4565]

 

I am sure GM wished they had more volume out of Cadillac.  Let's say hypothetically Chevy makes $1,000 per car profit, Buick and GMC $2,000 and Cadillac $4,000.  I'm sure they'd want to sell as many Cadillacs as possible, it has the best margin.  If Cadillac has terrible volume, that hurts GM's bottom line.

 

Before Cadillac gets their 5 year plan completed the new E-class will be here to lay the hurt on the CTS, A6 and GS.  They have a lot of new stuff in store, new inline six, electric turbos, autonomous drive, etc.

 

What makes you think Cadillac doesn't have a lot of stuff in store?  Cadillac has SuperCruise coming very soon, I've spotted the cars testing in Pittsburgh (there has been a semi-camoflaged XTS wandering around downtown).  Cadillac just released a fantastic new 8-speed automatic that performs equal or better than some of the best DCTs. There's the 3.0TT due out later this year, the updated 3.6, the updated 3.6TT, the coming V8TT, 4-wheel steering, a vastly upgraded CUE system, and more "added vehicle lightness". 

 

But Mercedes has super cruise or self driving already, The E-class is getting it, which means the 5-series do it, so the CTS will have to have it, they can't hold it as an CT6 exclusive and trickle down later.   All the Germans have TT V8s already, nothing new there. Mercedes has the 9-speed transmission now, which like the 7-speed has 2 reverse gears, so you can do 50 mph in reverse.

 

We'll see what happens, but the CTS isn't competing well with an old E-class.  Once the new one arrives they could be in trouble.  Same goes for Lexus wit that tired GS they have.  That 3.5 liter V6 is from like 2006, they might want to upgrade that.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

I am sure GM wished they had more volume out of Cadillac.  Let's say hypothetically Chevy makes $1,000 per car profit, Buick and GMC $2,000 and Cadillac $4,000.  I'm sure they'd want to sell as many Cadillacs as possible, it has the best margin.  If Cadillac has terrible volume, that hurts GM's bottom line.

 

Before Cadillac gets their 5 year plan completed the new E-class will be here to lay the hurt on the CTS, A6 and GS.  They have a lot of new stuff in store, new inline six, electric turbos, autonomous drive, etc.

 

What makes you think Cadillac doesn't have a lot of stuff in store?  Cadillac has SuperCruise coming very soon, I've spotted the cars testing in Pittsburgh (there has been a semi-camoflaged XTS wandering around downtown).  Cadillac just released a fantastic new 8-speed automatic that performs equal or better than some of the best DCTs. There's the 3.0TT due out later this year, the updated 3.6, the updated 3.6TT, the coming V8TT, 4-wheel steering, a vastly upgraded CUE system, and more "added vehicle lightness". 

 

But Mercedes has super cruise or self driving already, The E-class is getting it, which means the 5-series do it, so the CTS will have to have it, they can't hold it as an CT6 exclusive and trickle down later.   All the Germans have TT V8s already, nothing new there. Mercedes has the 9-speed transmission now, which like the 7-speed has 2 reverse gears, so you can do 50 mph in reverse.

 

We'll see what happens, but the CTS isn't competing well with an old E-class.  Once the new one arrives they could be in trouble.  Same goes for Lexus wit that tired GS they have.  That 3.5 liter V6 is from like 2006, they might want to upgrade that.

 

 

What do you mean Mercedes "has it already"?  Can I go to a Benz dealer tomorrow and buy it?  If not, then Benz does not have it already.   The CTS is getting SuperCruise and it is also getting V2V.   CT6 and CTS both get it for the 2017 model year which means it's 13 months away.

Cadillac is doing much more frequent updates to their vehicles going forward.  They're not putting them all into the 3rd year MCE like has been done in the past. They'll get more of a Tesla style rolling upgrade from year to year.   If the new transmissions and engines are ready, they go in... no waiting around for the next MCE.   We're seeing that for 2016 with the new 8-speed and 3.6 V6 going in all of the RWD cars.  

[smk4565]

The 2014 S-class could drive itself via the radar guided cruise control and the active steering.   I have seen video where it holds lanes on the highway where the steering wheel turns without hands touching it, and it car can do hands free driving in traffic.   I didn't know how to imbed a video but here is an S-class doing it.  The first part is just radar cruise control which is old news, but around 5 minutes the wheel is doing a lot of it's own turning.  Distronic Plus with Steering is available now on the C-class also.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXB82PfNucg

 

They have a fully autonomous S-class prototype, but you have a whole host of legal issues to overcome I'd imagine before that is put on sale.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just drove a distronic plus car for a week. It is guided steering but not autonomous steering. Take your hand off the wheel for too long and the system alerts you and shuts down. The Cadillac system is to be completely hands free.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

I am sure GM wished they had more volume out of Cadillac.  Let's say hypothetically Chevy makes $1,000 per car profit, Buick and GMC $2,000 and Cadillac $4,000.  I'm sure they'd want to sell as many Cadillacs as possible, it has the best margin.  If Cadillac has terrible volume, that hurts GM's bottom line.

 

Before Cadillac gets their 5 year plan completed the new E-class will be here to lay the hurt on the CTS, A6 and GS.  They have a lot of new stuff in store, new inline six, electric turbos, autonomous drive, etc.

 

What makes you think Cadillac doesn't have a lot of stuff in store?  Cadillac has SuperCruise coming very soon, I've spotted the cars testing in Pittsburgh (there has been a semi-camoflaged XTS wandering around downtown).  Cadillac just released a fantastic new 8-speed automatic that performs equal or better than some of the best DCTs. There's the 3.0TT due out later this year, the updated 3.6, the updated 3.6TT, the coming V8TT, 4-wheel steering, a vastly upgraded CUE system, and more "added vehicle lightness". 

 

But Mercedes has super cruise or self driving already, The E-class is getting it, which means the 5-series do it, so the CTS will have to have it, they can't hold it as an CT6 exclusive and trickle down later.   All the Germans have TT V8s already, nothing new there. Mercedes has the 9-speed transmission now, which like the 7-speed has 2 reverse gears, so you can do 50 mph in reverse.

 

We'll see what happens, but the CTS isn't competing well with an old E-class.  Once the new one arrives they could be in trouble.  Same goes for Lexus wit that tired GS they have.  That 3.5 liter V6 is from like 2006, they might want to upgrade that.

 

 

 

Autonomous Driving

First and foremost, and I can't believe I'm the first to say it, but EFF Mercedes. U are giving credit to the brand on a technology that should have been in their cars the day they decided to start selling that BS for more than $100K. Furthermore,

 

"DISTRONIC PLUS adaptive cruise control is no substitute for active driving involvement. It does not adapt cruising speed in response to stationary objects, nor does it predict the curvature and lane layout of the road ahead or the movement of vehicles ahead. It is the driver's responsibility at all times to be attentive to traffic and road conditions, and to provide the steering, braking and other driving inputs necessary to retain control of the vehicle. Drivers are cautioned not to wait for the DISTRONIC Proximity Warning System before braking, as that may not afford sufficient time and distance to brake safely. Braking effectiveness also depends on proper brake maintenance, and tire and road conditions." Mercedes Disclaimer

 

because truth be told.. the first time someone gets killed using this tech.. all of these companies are gonna be made to yank that BS off the market. Personally I'm lost to why the heck they would even implement such a tech on a society that is absolutely, and completely irresponsible in the first place. Not to mention hackers. I already hear chatter from tech colleagues that this is gonna be a GOOD TIME for hackers all over the world

 

Engines/Transmissions:

 

The Germans have TTV8s due to their mother market necessitating the use of them due to taxation. Cadillac had the luxury.. lol... of not having to deal with those taxes until now since it is beginning to make serious head way in China, and have plans, for some reason, to enter back into Europe. Cadillac has access to the LS and now LT V8s which are capable of as much HP and torque as the Germans' TTv8. They have also demonstrated that they are now capable of TTv6s that rival or beat what the Germans have in their TTv6/SCv6s and some of their V8s.

 

The transmissions are now moot. The GM 8speed is certifiably one of the best on the market. Engineered independently and IN-HOUSE, not by ZF or Getrag. GM is developing with Ford a 9 and 10 speed. 50 miles an hour in reverse??? WHY???

 

The new E-Class will debut next year. Two years after that the new CT4 will debut. Its a situation of WHEN. All cars get one upped periodically unless they all come together and agree that they are from this day forward gonna debut like cars at the same time

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

What do you mean Mercedes "has it already"?  Can I go to a Benz dealer tomorrow and buy it?  If not, then Benz does not have it already.   The CTS is getting SuperCruise and it is also getting V2V.   CT6 and CTS both get it for the 2017 model year which means it's 13 months away.

Cadillac is doing much more frequent updates to their vehicles going forward.  They're not putting them all into the 3rd year MCE like has been done in the past. They'll get more of a Tesla style rolling upgrade from year to year.   If the new transmissions and engines are ready, they go in... no waiting around for the next MCE.   We're seeing that for 2016 with the new 8-speed and 3.6 V6 going in all of the RWD cars.  

 

 

I still say that V2V and SC are a huge mistake.. Its bragging rights sure.. but I think we are going down a helluva path.. one that John and Sarah Connors warned us about 31 years ago. 

 

But this is sexy

[smk4565]

The problem with any autonomous drive system is going to be when the vehicle has to make a life or death decision. Suppose a car swerves into on coming traffic headed right for you, and there are 2 pedestrians on the sidewalk. Does the autonomous car take a head on collision or swerve and risk hitting the pedestrians.

There will be huge disclaimers on these things and that is why the Mercedes system makes you have hand on the wheel. So if it messes up you can't sue them.

What happens if SuperCruise hits a pedestrian trying to avoid something else while the driver didn't have hands on wheel or wasn't paying attention.

Edited June 18, 2015 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

The problem with any autonomous drive system is going to be when the vehicle has to make a life or death decision. Suppose a car swerves into on coming traffic headed right for you, and there are 2 pedestrians on the sidewalk. Does the autonomous car take a head on collision or swerve and risk hitting the pedestrians.

There will be huge disclaimers on these things and that is why the Mercedes system makes you have hand on the wheel. So if it messes up you can't sue them.

What happens if SuperCruise hits a pedestrian trying to avoid something else while the driver didn't have hands on wheel or wasn't paying attention.

 

That's why Cadillac's is only going to work in stop-and-go traffic and at highway speeds.  It won't run in suburban situations.

[smk4565]

Which is what distronic plus does, stop and go traffic where it maps off the other cars, or high way speed where is just has to hold a lane and speed.  The difference becomes Cadillac beings hands free, and the Mercedes system making you hold the wheel after 60 seconds.  Which I am sure is that the request of the legal department.  If Cadillac has a totally hands free system, I am sure there will be some big warnings and disclaimers all over that, possibly an audio message that plays that you have to listen to then click "OK" to put it in Super Cruise.

Of course how many people drive while texting, doing hair/makeup, eating Big Macs or even all 3 at once. So Autonomous cars might not be so bad.

[Drew Dowdell]

Which is what distronic plus does, stop and go traffic where it maps off the other cars, or high way speed where is just has to hold a lane and speed.  The difference becomes Cadillac beings hands free, and the Mercedes system making you hold the wheel after 60 seconds.  Which I am sure is that the request of the legal department.  If Cadillac has a totally hands free system, I am sure there will be some big warnings and disclaimers all over that, possibly an audio message that plays that you have to listen to then click "OK" to put it in Super Cruise.

Of course how many people drive while texting, doing hair/makeup, eating Big Macs or even all 3 at once. So Autonomous cars might not be so bad.

 

The Mercedes system doesn't work for anything more then gentle curves. It doesn't always let you take off again from a stop without pressing resume (the older versions did, they seem to have removed that ability)

[hyperv6]

The driver is not going to be replaced very soon. If and when one of these systems fail and kill someone it may also be short lived due to litigation.

 

This is a difficult thing to do and it may get so complicated that it may not be worth the hassle.

 

People fail but it is so much different when machines fail.

[El Kabong]

Potentially, it's even scarier when machines succeed.

Consider, say, an autonomous SUV has one passenger and is in a situation where a collision with a school bus is imminent. Does the computer in the SUV do a risk analysis and decide that crashing itself into a tree will only risk one life, or does protecting its own occupants take priority regardless of the number of kids who may become casualties?

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

In this automotive age of technical one-upmanship to seek a sales advantage, I suspect it will soon proliferate quickly and almost certainly before it is ready for prime time.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Potentially, it's even scarier when machines succeed.

Consider, say, an autonomous SUV has one passenger and is in a situation where a collision with a school bus is imminent. Does the computer in the SUV do a risk analysis and decide that crashing itself into a tree will only risk one life, or does protecting its own occupants take priority regardless of the number of kids who may become casualties?

 

 

^^^ this is EXACTLY my fear. Benz, Cadillac, Audi.. any of them... This is a technology I simply have no desire to see come to fruition.. and if a vote ever comes to play on the political side.. I would personally cast a vote to not allow for it. The only caveat being.. N.A. would be behind in the tech.. but then again since GM and Ford are both global entities they could implement it in other countries to stay with the other makers in terms of advancement

[balthazar]

2015 sees the auto industry creating tech for tech's sake, then expending an equal amount of energy convincing us it's "necessary".

 

Look no further than the decades of emphasis on creating a better 'driver's car', now some are preaching 'autonomous driving', or the exact opposite of driver involvement.

[El Kabong]

Potentially, it's even scarier when machines succeed.

Consider, say, an autonomous SUV has one passenger and is in a situation where a collision with a school bus is imminent. Does the computer in the SUV do a risk analysis and decide that crashing itself into a tree will only risk one life, or does protecting its own occupants take priority regardless of the number of kids who may become casualties?

 

^^^ this is EXACTLY my fear. Benz, Cadillac, Audi.. any of them... This is a technology I simply have no desire to see come to fruition.. and if a vote ever comes to play on the political side.. I would personally cast a vote to not allow for it. The only caveat being.. N.A. would be behind in the tech.. but then again since GM and Ford are both global entities they could implement it in other countries to stay with the other makers in terms of advancement

Can you imagine being the software engineer being asked to do the protocols for that? The legal ramifications would be an absolute nightmare. Orwellian, really.

[David]

 

 

Potentially, it's even scarier when machines succeed.

Consider, say, an autonomous SUV has one passenger and is in a situation where a collision with a school bus is imminent. Does the computer in the SUV do a risk analysis and decide that crashing itself into a tree will only risk one life, or does protecting its own occupants take priority regardless of the number of kids who may become casualties?

 

^^^ this is EXACTLY my fear. Benz, Cadillac, Audi.. any of them... This is a technology I simply have no desire to see come to fruition.. and if a vote ever comes to play on the political side.. I would personally cast a vote to not allow for it. The only caveat being.. N.A. would be behind in the tech.. but then again since GM and Ford are both global entities they could implement it in other countries to stay with the other makers in terms of advancement

Can you imagine being the software engineer being asked to do the protocols for that? The legal ramifications would be an absolute nightmare. Orwellian, really.

 

As a software engineer, the great good will always over way the individual. I have no problem programming the car to take the lesser of death. Hit many people or hit one. The one will always loose out.

 

This is the same for society, the greater good has to take priority over the one.

[El Kabong]

Clearly you never saw Star Trek II.

So now, riddle me this: who would buy a self-driving car if you're typically in it by yourself? Your car would always put you at the bottom of any pecking order in an accident scenario, plus it would do so without you being responsible for any of the things that occurred to get you to that point in the first place!

Edited June 19, 2015 by El Kabong

[smk4565]

The Volvo XC90 has radar cruise control with self steering for dealing with traffic and it can hold lanes on a highway as long as there are line markings.  Their system I heard didn't need hands on the wheel like the Mercedes system.

 

A problem with decision making is if a bus is about to hit your car, the car doesn't know it is a bus or if it has 1 passenger or 50.   The car is just going to see a large object to avoid.  But there are thousands of traffic fatalities every year caused by human error.  Autonomous drive systems could probably cut that in half maybe more.  But if autonomous cars as a whole cause 100 deaths a year people will be in uproar about it, yet they'll be okay with humans killing 30,000 from drunk driving, falling asleep, texting, not paying attention, etc.

[El Kabong]

If a human chooses poorly for themselves, there are the courts and prisons.

If a robot chooses poorly for its owner, does it go on trial?

[David]

If a human chooses poorly for themselves, there are the courts and prisons.

If a robot chooses poorly for its owner, does it go on trial?

Naw they just scrap it and recycle it into a new one! 

[Drew Dowdell]

If a human chooses poorly for themselves, there are the courts and prisons.

If a robot chooses poorly for its owner, does it go on trial?

 

That is the biggest question out there for Americans.  If I get hit by a self-driving car, who do I sue?

[Cmicasa the Great]

Clearly you never saw Star Trek II.

So now, riddle me this: who would buy a self-driving car if you're typically in it by yourself? Your car would always put you at the bottom of any pecking order in an accident scenario, plus it would do so without you being responsible for any of the things that occurred to get you to that point in the first place!

 

 

 

Overall I fear that no one has seen Terminator, or more recently Ex-Machina. Wanna hear some crazy $h!??? We are A.I. .. and daily we are killing our creator. It won't take as long for our creations to kill us

[balthazar]

What this thread needs is CTS SEDAN only sales numbers for the last 3-4 years, with MSRP for each year. 

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

 

 

Overall I fear that no one has seen Terminator, or more recently Ex-Machina. Wanna hear some crazy $h!??? We are A.I. .. and daily we are killing our creator. It won't take as long for our creations to kill us

 

Or more recently...iRobot..If a 1980s movie  and 1990s sequel aint your thing and because all other "Ill Be Back" moments were just rehashed from the first two...

 And about us being A.I. and us killing our creator....very clever....I agree...

 

About the clockwork creations (iRobot reference)  and kiiling us eventually...maybe tinfoil conspiracy...but it aint THAT unbelievable...like you said...we have been killing our creator for a long long time now...and...we have been killing each other since forever...for power and supremacy...what makes you tjink that computers and robots wont be doing the same...after all...God created us in his image...and we are creating robots and computers in our image...

Clearly you never saw Star Trek II.

So now, riddle me this: who would buy a self-driving car if you're typically in it by yourself? Your car would always put you at the bottom of any pecking order in an accident scenario, plus it would do so without you being responsible for any of the things that occurred to get you to that point in the first place!

 

Very nice...I like your way of thinking...

Betcha many people have not thought of this angle?

I know I havent. And I saw the movie iRobot countless of times...

Thanx for opening up my eyes even further.

 

I am on the same page as Casa and yourself...but this angle makes me even more weary....and scared for autonomous cars...

Edited June 20, 2015 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

Thanks. And to think that I was banned from MT for trolling. Maybe I should just post some pics of skid marks in a 7-11 parking lot. That's more their speed these days

[Guest Z064ever]

To begin my comments we ordered a 2008 CTS Performance/Luxury model in Sept of 2007. Loved the car's look and performance, an outstanding car with great value as well.  We shopped and traded our CTS in for a 2015 ATS Coupe Performance model (2.0 Turbo with the upgraded interior and paint), it is probably the most attractive of the new CTS and ATS.  What the car  (CTS as well) is outstanding American car looks, and a price advantage as well is a  much too high figure, probably $5-6000, and feel the CTS is about $10,000 too high.  The new V series ATS and CTS are at least $10- 15,000 respectively too high.  Cadillac is still trying to reestablish itself in the American consumer eyes,  they need to price cars to attract the consumer. Remember, originally that is how Lexus did it to get a foothold in the buyers eyes, give them a great car and value (not so much anymore).  Open your eyes Cadillac and figure it out, you cannot price like Audi, BMW, Mercedes because Americans (check resale prices) don't see you as the aspirational vehicle you see it as.  I have tried to convince many people to consider Caddies, they look at the price, and decide to buy BMWs and etc..  No matter what Johann and his supporters say they are live in Fantasyland at this point.

[Guest Jerry K]

I'm an old fart and a die hard Caddie owner since forever, but... my next car will be a used RWD Ford/Lincoln/Mercury sedan with as low a mileage as I can get. The reason is simple, I can get into it without a gymnastics and it feels spacious. When you're lugging an oxygen bottle around it makes a difference. They also don't have all that electronic crap I would never use. It's a pity that no one is making a roomy sedan for anyone over 65.

 

As for handeling, I'm never going to drive the way I did back in the day so I don't need anything more than anti-lock and positraction if available.

[balthazar]

^ Unfortunately, the current unilateral trend is to forego a bench seat for the "sportier" individual seat & console, yet note no car dimensional charts pay ANY heed to said console when publishing hip room numbers.

 

My vintage Buick has 66" of hip room (with of course; no console) on an 81" body (15" difference). Current LaCrosse is listed with 55" of hip room on a 73" body (18" difference). Where'd the console go??

 

Hang in there, JerryK; at least you have plenty of volume of FoMoCo's to look over at your next purchase.

[El Kabong]

To be fair, this is a global thing. Honda tried putting a front bench in a people-mover over in Yurp several years ago. It made perfect sense: Europeans supposedly favor smaller vehicles with better space utilization. It still flopped.

Edited June 21, 2015 by El Kabong

[balthazar]

It's such a curious ideology when you read people harping on vehicle 'packaging': comparing interior vs. exterior dimensions…. then readily advocate putting the automatic shifter on a space-hogging console to free up the area behind the steering wheel.

 

The other likely cause of course is air bags/Nav screens, but there's ways to work around that.

 

In resto-modding my Buick, naturally the opportunity to put buckets/console in is there, but I'm just not interested.

[hyperv6]

The fact is two things from what I was told.

 

#1 Bench seats are just out of favor to the point it is not worth even offering them. Yes there are some folks who still want them but there are too few to make sense economically.

Second in some cars it is the air bags. It is much easier for two bags and two people up front vs. trying to catch two people with the left bag.

Same thing applies to many other things like white walls and letters. White rubber has no structure and creates hot spots and normally are relegated to low speed rated vehicles if at all anymore. Automakers have been making faster cars and just do not want the liability even if limited. Few people come out and say this and just play it off as Euro influence but it is more about not getting taken to court.

Back seats are a non factor as no bag required.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

It's such a curious ideology when you read people harping on vehicle 'packaging': comparing interior vs. exterior dimensions…. then readily advocate putting the automatic shifter on a space-hogging console to free up the area behind the steering wheel.

 

The other likely cause of course is air bags/Nav screens, but there's ways to work around that.

 

In resto-modding my Buick, naturally the opportunity to put buckets/console in is there, but I'm just not interested.

I would prefer bench seats in my old Plymouth with a flip down arm rest.  That is ideal and better than the bucket seats that were standard.  Bucket seats in an old muscle cars are simply not needed for any G force maneuver.  Those old cars handle so pathetically bad, you avoid any lateral G force you can.

[balthazar]

Depends on how they were originally, and since; equipped.

I've seen numbers on a modified '65 GTO that out-lateral Gs a current Porsche 911 Carrera S.

 

When I was running '60s Pontiacs daily, with modern rubber and a performance-minded alignment, they handled surprisingly well.