KillFort

NG Aurora

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Although GM killed Oldsmobile, wasn't there rumors of Olds fighting for a NG Aurora on Sigma right before its death?

Just wondering if anyone has ever seen sketches of design proposals or mockups of where Oldsmobile was going before they got axed. I'm sure at least some stuff still exist somewhere.

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According to Wikipedia, Oldsmobile did ask Cadillac if the Aurora could be placed on the then-developing Sigma platform. Cadillac refused. It seemed that after that, GM swung the axe down on Olds.

I thought that any division would have wanted to help Olds out. Guess not.

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Can't put too much trust in Wikipedia content, after all anyone can edit it, and at times the words can be confusing.

There's no hard evidence that Cadillac "refused" Olds' request.

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There are plenty of stories of infighting between the divisions of GM. The relatively few I've read about are fascinating.

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Let's remember, or bring those that did not know up to speed, that the 2nd gen Aurora as we know was the "entry Luxury" car for Olds, NOT the REAL 2nd gen car. The REAL 2nd gen car was dropped and the "entry Luxury" car was renamed Aurora when Olds realized they were a goner.

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Walt I remember that footage.. I remember when I sent those videos out.. I am glad to see you still have it and use it to make a point. As for that second generation Aurora, the story is..

A Oldsmobile engineer asked GM not Cadillac to use Sigma because they felt they had a case because Oldsmobile was great with rear drive cars. Some GM excutive said no, and soon after that Oldsmobile was gone. The 2nd generation Aurora was supposed to be called Anthem and it was going to replace 88 and 98 and LSS. That is why the 2nd generation Aurora looks like a redesigned 88. GM was either tight on money or something and they went back and modified Anthem to become Aurora. It seems the 2nd generation Aurora fairs better than the 1st generation in terms of relability and quality. Most people who own them keep them.

Edited by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

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So what I think we need now is someone to chop a CTS into an Olds version.

Or at least an STS. A CTS-based Aurora would be a 3-Series competitor.

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Walt I remember that footage.. I remember when I sent those videos out.. I am glad to see you still have it and use it to make a point. As for that second generation Aurora, the story is..

A Oldsmobile engineer asked GM not Cadillac to use Sigma because they felt they had a case because Oldsmobile was great with rear drive cars. Some GM excutive said no, and soon after that. Oldsmobile was gone. The 2nd generation Aurora was supposed to be called Anthem and it was going to replace 88 and 98 and LSS. That is why the 2nd generation Aurora looks like a redesigned 88.  GM was either tight on money or something and they went back and modified Anthem to become Aurora. It seems the 2nd generation Aurora fairs better than the 1st generation in terms of relability and quality. Most people who own them keep them.

You forgot one point. The whole reason why Oldsmobile had to go to GM and ask about Sigma was because the original 2nd gen MY2000 Oldsmobile Aurora was to be developed along with the MY2000 Buick Riviera... just like the original program for the 1995 Riviera/1995 Aurora. Buick decided to drop the slow selling Riviera instead of going through with the joint program, leaving Oldsmobile without a program to develop the planned 2nd Gen Aurora.

Some information implies that part of the internal struggle had to do with Oldsmobile refusing to share the 4.0 V8 with Buick. Oldsmobile wouldn't give in so Buick killed the Riviera, thus killing the 2nd Gen Aurora, thus causing the Anthem/Antares sedan to become an impromptu Aurora. Oldsmobile had already received Billions of dollars in assistance and I don't think any one internally was willing to sacrifice on its behalf.

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Guest YellowJacket894

^ So it's all Buick's fault due to a spat over a goddam engine?

And GM allowed it to happen?

GM should put strict limits on this kind of crap.

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Thanks for posting stills of that video! I still have the videos (haven't watched them in a while though), but I've always wanted to see a still of that pre-Anthem/Aurora-thanks Avant1963!

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Depressing. Anyone read the Olds article in this month's MT Classic?

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I would love if someone published a book all about Oldsmobile concepts, mock-ups, drawings and the like. It would be really great to see what Oldsmobile was working on for this decade before they were told they were being dropped. I'm sure there had to be NG Alero, Bravada, Intrigue, Aurora, and other designs in the works. I'd definitely buy this book.

For those with info and pics, please post more. I am totally into this thread and can't wait to find out more.

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Could you get any better than the last-gen Aurora? Maybe a better interior but the exterior of that car was all pleasure.

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the second generation Aurora was meant to replace the eighty eight and LSS models. a new Aurora would probably have been built on the RWD sigma platform. I would have liked to seen what a new Intrigue, and a new Alero on epsilion would have looked like.. the Bravada and Silhouette would have still been the same. and the Buick Rainier and Saturn Relay probably wouldnt have existed.. I still belive the reason why Oldsmobile is no longer with us is because when they axed the 88/98/LSS they lost all those customers to Buick, the Chevy Impala and perhaps to Mercury..

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^ No, the real reason is that Buick cried to mommy over a V-8.

No. Not really. It was not Buick's responsibility to make sure Oldsmobile could afford a 2nd Gen Aurora. Everything is contingent. Why should Buick proceed with a program and burn money on a non-profitable vehicle just for the sake of another division? Even with the cancellation of the original 2nd Gen Aurora, Oldsmobile was bleeding money. So Oldsmobile really didn't have the money for the program... Let alone completing the development on its own. So in all actuality, Buick's Riviera program wouldn't have saved them. The 2nd Gen Aurora may have been built, but the division's fate was made. My personal regret is over the loss of the Riviera.

From my understanding, Oldsmobile chose to burden itself with the cost for the 'development' and the 'exclusiveness' of the Northstar derived 4.0V8 & Shortstar 3.5lV6. Sharing the development costs for both of those engines with another division (like Buick) could have saved Oldsmobile. Those engineering costs hurt Oldsmobile more than anything (along with a shrinking customer base). From many perspectives, Oldsmobile dug its own grave.

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No. Not really. It was not Buick's responsibility to make sure Oldsmobile could afford a 2nd Gen Aurora. Everything is contingent. Why should Buick proceed with a program and burn money on a non-profitable vehicle just for the sake of another division? Even with the cancellation of the original 2nd Gen Aurora, Oldsmobile was bleeding money. So Oldsmobile really didn't have the money for the program... Let alone completing the development on its own. So in all actuality, Buick's Riviera program wouldn't have saved them. The 2nd Gen Aurora may have been built, but the division's fate was made. My personal regret is over the loss of the Riviera.

From my understanding, Oldsmobile chose to burden itself with the cost for the 'development' and the 'exclusiveness' of the Northstar derived 4.0V8 & Shortstar 3.5lV6. Sharing the development costs for both of those engines with another division (like Buick) could have saved Oldsmobile. Those engineering costs hurt Oldsmobile more than anything (along with a shrinking customer base). From many perspectives, Oldsmobile dug its own grave.

Olds tried to get Pontiac and Buick to bite on the 3.5 S* and a 3.7 sport tuned derivitive back around 98 and 99. Pontiac wanted to stick to the L67 and 3800 because they were cheaper, Chevy let the 3.4 LQ1 die because they wanted the cheaper 3800 also. Olds didn't want the entire burden of the 4.0 and 3.5 but they got it. Likely this one thing that may have changed the public's perception about GM being behind in the engine game, the DOHC smooth as silk 3.5 S* was down on power to the L67 but made up for it with smoothness. If a 3.7 with 250 hp had been made then the L67 would have been a terrible choice, but Pontiac cheapened out.

The O.C. could likely chime in here with personal observations, as he was likely still with GM around the time this decision was made.

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Oldsmobile would've turned GM around. That's my belief and I stick to it. Unlike Saturn, it had poise, presence, class, and the history of being at the pinnicle of automotive technology.

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Olds tried to get Pontiac and Buick to bite on the 3.5 S* and a 3.7 sport tuned derivitive back around 98 and 99.  Pontiac wanted to stick to the L67 and 3800 because they were cheaper, Chevy let the 3.4 LQ1 die because they wanted the cheaper 3800 also.  Olds didn't want the entire burden of the 4.0 and 3.5 but they got it.  Likely this one thing that may have changed the public's perception about GM being behind in the engine game, the DOHC smooth as silk 3.5 S* was down on power to the L67 but made up for it with smoothness.  If a 3.7 with 250 hp had been made then the L67 would have been a terrible choice, but Pontiac cheapened out.

The O.C. could likely chime in here with personal observations, as he was likely still with GM around the time this decision was made.

I don't blame Pontiac for sticking with the L67, as I would choose it over the 3.7 also. While it may be down 10hp, it would destroy it in torque #s, and is so easy to mod, though that probably isn't important to most people.

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Oldsmobile would've turned GM around. That's my belief and I stick to it. Unlike Saturn, it had poise, presence, class, and the history of being at the pinnicle of automotive technology.

There is one problem that you ignore in GM's decision to axe Oldsmobile.

Unlike Saturn, Oldsmobile's image still sucked in the market after $2 billion of investment over 10 years. Saturn does not have to overcome being "Your father's OLDsmobile".

The brand became irrelevant just like Buick and Pontiac are becoming today.

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Just for clarification:

There was never a true replacement for the 1st generation Aurora.

There never was a true replacement for the G body Riveria.

The GMX-160 Oldsmobile was to be the lead vehicle out of the P-O-B H body triplets, prior to it becoming the replacement for the Aurora and the addition of the NSV8 to the program.

Oldsmobile was not planned to get a version of sigma.

There were tentative plans for Buick to get a version of sigma prior to the A&S Cadillac rebuilt of the GMX320 Catera. But that program was still born early on.

Just prior to the cancellation of Olds, there was only 1 program on the books with any chance of reaching production.

That was the GMT-360 Bravada.

3 other programs were dotted for Olds but were very early in the development.

They were:

GMX-369 Intrigum (Profile Concept off Eps wide)

GMT-235 Minivan

GMT-259 Joaquim/GMT-31? Theta Crossover

Edited by evok

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Oldsmobile Joaquim, huh? That's the first time I'd ever heard about it-I'm assuming the minivan was the circa-2005 Silhouette before Olds got pulled and CSV's came to play, but was Joaquim a pre-Recon? I remember Recon was slated for the Theta architecture, but wow, that's interesting! And there was also an early-development GMX382 Alero-am I correct there too? Intrigum was supposed to be essentially an Olds version of the Malibu Maxx if I remember correctly as well.

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Yes there also was a very early GMX-382 Alero.

These programs were never really hard timed as far as I remember. Meaning, there were codes but no serious work ever went into bringing these programs to production prior to the Olds announcememnt.

The Olds announcement was in Nov./Dec. 2000.

Edited by evok

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