Jump to content
  • Greetings Guest!

    CheersandGears.com was founded in 2001 and is one of the oldest continuously operating automotive forums out there.  Come see why we have users who visit nearly every day for the past 16+ years. Signup is fast and free, or you can opt for a premium subscription to view the site ad-free.

William Maley

Industry News: Renault Sees An End To Diesels In Their Vehicles

Recommended Posts

Since the Volkswagen diesel emission scandal came to light, more scrutiny has been put on automakers and emissions standards. Recent real-world tests of European market diesel vehicles have revealed a number were 10 times over the legal limit for emissions. With stricter regulations coming into effect next year, automakers are reconsidering their investment in diesel.

Case in point is Renault. Reuters has learned from sources at the company that it believes diesel engines will disappear from their lineup due to stricter regulations. This comes from an internal meeting before a summer break where Renault went over the costs of meeting these stricter regulations. According to two people who were at the meeting, Renault's Chief Competitiveness Officer Thierry Bollore said the investment in diesel had dimmed significantly due to upcoming regulations.

"He said we were now wondering whether diesel would survive, and that he wouldn't have voiced such doubts even at the start of this year," said one of the people.

"Tougher standards and testing methods will increase technology costs to the point where diesel is forced out of the market."

Next year will see Europe adopting emission standards similar to the ones in the U.S. known as Euro 6b. This will become more stringent as time goes on. Two years after Euro 6b comes into affect, European regulators will begin doing real-world testing of fuel economy and emissions. The combination of these two things means automakers will need to spend more money to make their vehicles meet these standards.

"Everybody is backtracking on diesel because after 2017-18 it becomes more and more expensive," said Pavan Potluri, a powertrain analyst with consulting firm IHS Automotive.

Already, diesel engines have been disappearing from city cars. Sources say Renault predicts that diesel will disappear from all B-Segment and some C-Segment models by 2020.

Source: Reuters


View full article

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expected this, I also expect we will see a plethora of EV and Plug-in Hybrids over the next 24 months.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is government intrusion at its absolute worst.  And it goes against what customers want.  Totally out of sync with the market.

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

This is government intrusion at its absolute worst.  And it goes against what customers want.  Totally out of sync with the market.

The government has very little to do with it other than prosecuting the offenders. Many of the people who bought TDIs did so thinking they were clean burners.  A lot of those buyers are justifiably mad at being misled by VW.  Diesel in Europe has been starting to taper off over the past few years anyway... now with the VW scandal, I expect a rapid drop in diesel sales simply because customers don't trust the technology anymore (justifiably or not). 

GM got the blame for killing diesels in the US for 30 years and it tarnished GM's image.

VW will get the blame for killing them globally because they've tarnished the image of diesel technology as a whole. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The government has everything to do with it if they choke the life out of the diesel engine by regulating it to death.

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

The government has everything to do with it if they choke the life out of the diesel engine by regulating it to death.

Other diesel manufacturers followed the rules.  VW didn't.  VW got busted and tarnished the image of diesel as being a very dirty technology when in fact it can be clean. 

Why did they do this? They did this to further their quest to be the largest auto maker on the planet and save themselves $350 per car.  If TDI buyers are that loyal, they certainly could have stomached an extra $350 for the emissions control equipment. I know I wouldn't even have blinked at that amount and I doubt you would have either.

This was greed and hubris on VW's part....... plain and simple. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

customers totally wanted to lose half their car's value and be lied to about its real economy/ecological numbers.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The car is still more valuable TO THE OWNERS than some made-up BS.  And the TDi's economy numbers routinely exceed the advertised.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Market value isn't made up, it's a very real thing. 

It doesn't exist until the car is sold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so first you're saying it's the 'gubmints' fault, and now you're implying tdi owners should just suck it up and be happy with their vehicle that doesn't meet advertised specs and has lost substantial resale value.

why do you hate consumers and fair business practices?

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read somewhere that VW cut a lot of costs by moving production of models to Slovakia and other Eastern European countries and also by moving production of certain Golfs and Audis to Mexico.

They couldn't stomach another $350 out of what I read they cut $7000 of costs of production associated with the then new 2012 Passat.

 

They were being greedy, and while there's plenty of time to discuss the fairness of laws, VW was considered the gold standard and untouchable when it came to diesels. And now they're in a mess.

 

And diesels can be very clean, even with the emissions control equipment enabled to full use, diesels still get great FE. And right now there's a negative spread between diesel and regular, and that's not a coincidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's not just diesel they are over regulating.  Globally the taxes and regs have created things like a 1.0 litre three turbo in a Ford Mondeo in Europe. etc.

The crossroads in powertrain development Drew alludes to in my mind is the push and pull, the ever increasing demands of regulation (for regulation sake now) are far exceeding the value of investment.  It's ruining the auto industry.  They all stepped up to the plate to make their 1.5's and tiny turbos and hybrids and 10 speed autos, now is not the time to double the requirements again.  It's time to make the technology that is in play now, reliable and cost effective.

We'd all be better off if they stop pussy footing and just come out and say 'all global powertrains shall be capable of either gas-electric hybrid, gas-electric hybrid plug in, or plug in hybrid propulsion.  With credits given for innovation in other fuels.  Let's skip over this struggle spending millions and billions making 2.0's gain 2 more mpg each product cycle when we can just flat out mandate fuel diversity and jump from a 30 mpg car to a 40 mpg car.  Let's get every manufacturer deeply immersed.  Create global tax incentives to entice manufacturers to join forces and engineer fewer but better powertrains.  

I really do think the crossroads is that we need to recognize we've got most of what we can out of pure gas powertrains.  We would see more of an investment with development dollars in standardizing future electric infrastructure.  Let's develop scalable battery technologies.  Let's think about what our charging network is 40 years down the pipe. etc.

 

I love diesels too, and this clearly a diesel witch hunt going on but I can see why any manufacturer would scale back on these.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

unlike some people, I'm not against electrification or hybridization.   I don't like to waste energy and if I can recapture energy when I'm braking to use it for acceleration, than I'm all for it.  If I can power my commute with wind turbines or solar, I'm all for it.  I like silence in my cars and I like lots of torque... both specialties of electric power, but in the end, I'm truly agnostic as to what I use for fuel as long as it has those qualities.  My limitation at the moment is the need for AWD.... there are so few hybrid AWD vehicles right now, and even fewer that are affordable, that it basically takes electrification off the table for me. 

But if GM put the CT6 PHEV powertrain in a new Chevy Avalanche 4x4, I'd be first in line at Chevy with my deposit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CHEVY HAS COME OUT AND SAID THE BOLT HAS A 238 MILE RANGE!  That's pretty darn good, I just wish I could count on that number consistently, but there are so many variables... seasonal, HVAC related, unknown traffic demands...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

CHEVY HAS COME OUT AND SAID THE BOLT HAS A 238 MILE RANGE!  That's pretty darn good, I just wish I could count on that number consistently, but there are so many variables... seasonal, HVAC related, unknown traffic demands...

That's an EPA estimate... so yes it could be variable, but that also means it could be higher.   In the Volt, real world driving returns results that regularly exceed EPA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/10/2016 at 5:38 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Other diesel manufacturers followed the rules.  VW didn't.  VW got busted and tarnished the image of diesel as being a very dirty technology when in fact it can be clean. 

Why did they do this? They did this to further their quest to be the largest auto maker on the planet and save themselves $350 per car.  If TDI buyers are that loyal, they certainly could have stomached an extra $350 for the emissions control equipment. I know I wouldn't even have blinked at that amount and I doubt you would have either.

This was greed and hubris on VW's part....... plain and simple. 

They had numerous other issues in the 2009-2014 cars (2012-2014 Passat sued a different system that did in fact use urea). DPF filters and High Pressure Fuel pumps are just the start.  had they walked through the front door in 2009, they would have a huge loyal following.  But the real problems started when High Pressure Fuel pumps started imploding....which was an $8000 repair when you went to a VW dealer because you basically sent shrapnel through the fuel system.

17 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

unlike some people, I'm not against electrification or hybridization.   I don't like to waste energy and if I can recapture energy when I'm braking to use it for acceleration, than I'm all for it.  If I can power my commute with wind turbines or solar, I'm all for it.  I like silence in my cars and I like lots of torque... both specialties of electric power, but in the end, I'm truly agnostic as to what I use for fuel as long as it has those qualities.  My limitation at the moment is the need for AWD.... there are so few hybrid AWD vehicles right now, and even fewer that are affordable, that it basically takes electrification off the table for me. 

But if GM put the CT6 PHEV powertrain in a new Chevy Avalanche 4x4, I'd be first in line at Chevy with my deposit. 

AWD seems like it would be a natural match for an electrical powertrain....look at how well it works out in the Tesla, which IIRC is all wheel drive, right?

On 9/11/2016 at 11:26 AM, Suaviloquent said:

I read somewhere that VW cut a lot of costs by moving production of models to Slovakia and other Eastern European countries and also by moving production of certain Golfs and Audis to Mexico.

They couldn't stomach another $350 out of what I read they cut $7000 of costs of production associated with the then new 2012 Passat.

 

They were being greedy, and while there's plenty of time to discuss the fairness of laws, VW was considered the gold standard and untouchable when it came to diesels. And now they're in a mess.

 

And diesels can be very clean, even with the emissions control equipment enabled to full use, diesels still get great FE. And right now there's a negative spread between diesel and regular, and that's not a coincidence.

They got really greedy...although cars built in Mexico are quality wise supposed to be just as good as the cars from Germany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

AWD seems like it would be a natural match for an electrical powertrain....look at how well it works out in the Tesla, which IIRC is all wheel drive, right?

AWD is optional.  If it has a D after the model number, then it's AWD.  The D actually stands for dual motors, one in the front and one in the back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

AWD is optional.  If it has a D after the model number, then it's AWD.  The D actually stands for dual motors, one in the front and one in the back. 

With electric, one could forgo the mechanical transfer case and be much more mechanically simple....looking forward to the three....I could see myself getting into a Tesla 3 quite easily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

With electric, one could forgo the mechanical transfer case and be much more mechanically simple....looking forward to the three....I could see myself getting into a Tesla 3 quite easily.

There is no transfer case in the AWD Tesla's. Its just a smaller motor unit up front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There is no transfer case in the AWD Tesla's. Its just a smaller motor unit up front.

Exactly....at some point the mechanical simplicity of electric has to be a major selling point.  Especially now that they are talking about gas cars having particulate filters and even more complex emissions systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Similar Content

    • By William Maley
      Lamborghini has been toying with the idea of electrification for some time. It would allow them to meet stricter emission regulations while retaining their naturally aspirated engines. Their CEO has made it official, the replacement for the Aventador will have electrification.
      "The next Aventador will be hybrid, with a V12. A decision is made on that and this is something that will keep us different from the others and this is very important," said Stefano Domenicali to Auto Express.
      In addition, the replacement for the Huracan will go down the electrification route by retaining the V10  and adding an electric motor. We got a hint of this back in March during a interview Maurizio Reggiani, Lamborghini's chief technical officer.
      The Urus will be the first Lamborghini to be electrified when the plug-in hybrid model launches towards the end of this decade, followed by the Aventador replacement a few years after.
      Source: Auto Express

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      Lamborghini has been toying with the idea of electrification for some time. It would allow them to meet stricter emission regulations while retaining their naturally aspirated engines. Their CEO has made it official, the replacement for the Aventador will have electrification.
      "The next Aventador will be hybrid, with a V12. A decision is made on that and this is something that will keep us different from the others and this is very important," said Stefano Domenicali to Auto Express.
      In addition, the replacement for the Huracan will go down the electrification route by retaining the V10  and adding an electric motor. We got a hint of this back in March during a interview Maurizio Reggiani, Lamborghini's chief technical officer.
      The Urus will be the first Lamborghini to be electrified when the plug-in hybrid model launches towards the end of this decade, followed by the Aventador replacement a few years after.
      Source: Auto Express
    • By William Maley
      The Ford Fusion will be going away in due course as part of the company's plan to put more focus on utility vehicles and trucks. But that doesn't mean the Fusion name will heading to the trash bin.
      Bloomberg has learned from sources that Ford is planning to move the Fusion name to a new wagon that will compete with the Subaru Outback. The new model will also use the same mechanical underpinnings as the current Fusion - leading us to believe that it will be some version of the Mondeo wagon sold in Europe. Ford spokesman Mike Levine declined to comment on the new model, but did say the Fusion name would continue "because of its awareness, positive imagery and value with consumers.”
      Ford needs a way to keep their current sedan buyers returning their showroom after the Fusion sedan drops out. Analysis done by Kelly Blue Book revealed the less than half of Fusion owners are loyal to the brand. KBB also found that the Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4 were the most popular SUV models that Fusion owners would consider.
      “Ford has a hard time moving people from their cars to SUVs,” said Michelle Krebs, a senior analyst with Autotrader.
      Source: Bloomberg (Subscription Required)

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      The Ford Fusion will be going away in due course as part of the company's plan to put more focus on utility vehicles and trucks. But that doesn't mean the Fusion name will heading to the trash bin.
      Bloomberg has learned from sources that Ford is planning to move the Fusion name to a new wagon that will compete with the Subaru Outback. The new model will also use the same mechanical underpinnings as the current Fusion - leading us to believe that it will be some version of the Mondeo wagon sold in Europe. Ford spokesman Mike Levine declined to comment on the new model, but did say the Fusion name would continue "because of its awareness, positive imagery and value with consumers.”
      Ford needs a way to keep their current sedan buyers returning their showroom after the Fusion sedan drops out. Analysis done by Kelly Blue Book revealed the less than half of Fusion owners are loyal to the brand. KBB also found that the Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4 were the most popular SUV models that Fusion owners would consider.
      “Ford has a hard time moving people from their cars to SUVs,” said Michelle Krebs, a senior analyst with Autotrader.
      Source: Bloomberg (Subscription Required)
    • By William Maley
      Lexus finds itself in a bit of a bind. With demand for crossovers growing, Lexus is doing a serious look at its product lineup and deciding what needs to be added and what needs to taken out.
      "We're more focused on maximizing the opportunities we have than comparing ourselves," said David Christ, the new general manager for Lexus to Automotive News.
      "Our product plan is what I would call a work in progress."
      The current focus for Lexus is the upcoming launches of the ES and the subcompact UX crossover. The ES is expected to keep current Lexus owners happy, but the new F-Sport package will hopefully bring in younger people - Lexus expects a quarter of ES sales to be the F-sport. The UX though is seen as what will bring the majority of young buyers to the brand.
      But this focus has Lexus doing "a strategic look" at two of their older models, the IS and GS. Both models are late into their lifecycles: IS was launched in 2013, while GS dates back to 2011. The two aren't big sellers either. In 2017, Lexus only moved 7,773 GS models and 26,482 IS models. Rumor has it that the GS could go away if the ES gets all-wheel drive. Christ wouldn't comment on that.
      "We can't do it all at once, but we're certainly evaluating both vehicles," said Christ.
      Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

      View full article
  • My Clubs

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Reader Rides

About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We ♥ Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.