Industry News: Renault Sees An End To Diesels In Their Vehicles

[William Maley]

Since the Volkswagen diesel emission scandal came to light, more scrutiny has been put on automakers and emissions standards. Recent real-world tests of European market diesel vehicles have revealed a number were 10 times over the legal limit for emissions. With stricter regulations coming into effect next year, automakers are reconsidering their investment in diesel.

Case in point is Renault. Reuters has learned from sources at the company that it believes diesel engines will disappear from their lineup due to stricter regulations. This comes from an internal meeting before a summer break where Renault went over the costs of meeting these stricter regulations. According to two people who were at the meeting, Renault's Chief Competitiveness Officer Thierry Bollore said the investment in diesel had dimmed significantly due to upcoming regulations.

"He said we were now wondering whether diesel would survive, and that he wouldn't have voiced such doubts even at the start of this year," said one of the people.

"Tougher standards and testing methods will increase technology costs to the point where diesel is forced out of the market."

Next year will see Europe adopting emission standards similar to the ones in the U.S. known as Euro 6b. This will become more stringent as time goes on. Two years after Euro 6b comes into affect, European regulators will begin doing real-world testing of fuel economy and emissions. The combination of these two things means automakers will need to spend more money to make their vehicles meet these standards.

"Everybody is backtracking on diesel because after 2017-18 it becomes more and more expensive," said Pavan Potluri, a powertrain analyst with consulting firm IHS Automotive.

Already, diesel engines have been disappearing from city cars. Sources say Renault predicts that diesel will disappear from all B-Segment and some C-Segment models by 2020.

Source: Reuters

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[David]

I expected this, I also expect we will see a plethora of EV and Plug-in Hybrids over the next 24 months.

[Drew Dowdell]

We're at a crossroads in terms of powertrain development right now. 

[ocnblu]

This is government intrusion at its absolute worst.  And it goes against what customers want.  Totally out of sync with the market.

[Drew Dowdell]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

This is government intrusion at its absolute worst.  And it goes against what customers want.  Totally out of sync with the market.

The government has very little to do with it other than prosecuting the offenders. Many of the people who bought TDIs did so thinking they were clean burners.  A lot of those buyers are justifiably mad at being misled by VW.  Diesel in Europe has been starting to taper off over the past few years anyway... now with the VW scandal, I expect a rapid drop in diesel sales simply because customers don't trust the technology anymore (justifiably or not). 

GM got the blame for killing diesels in the US for 30 years and it tarnished GM's image.

VW will get the blame for killing them globally because they've tarnished the image of diesel technology as a whole. 

[ocnblu]

The government has everything to do with it if they choke the life out of the diesel engine by regulating it to death.

[Drew Dowdell]

29 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

The government has everything to do with it if they choke the life out of the diesel engine by regulating it to death.

Other diesel manufacturers followed the rules.  VW didn't.  VW got busted and tarnished the image of diesel as being a very dirty technology when in fact it can be clean. 

Why did they do this? They did this to further their quest to be the largest auto maker on the planet and save themselves $350 per car.  If TDI buyers are that loyal, they certainly could have stomached an extra $350 for the emissions control equipment. I know I wouldn't even have blinked at that amount and I doubt you would have either.

This was greed and hubris on VW's part....... plain and simple. 

[FAPTurbo]

customers totally wanted to lose half their car's value and be lied to about its real economy/ecological numbers.

[ocnblu]

The car is still more valuable TO THE OWNERS than some made-up BS.  And the TDi's economy numbers routinely exceed the advertised.

[Drew Dowdell]

Market value isn't made up, it's a very real thing. 

[ocnblu]

22 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Market value isn't made up, it's a very real thing. 

It doesn't exist until the car is sold.

[FAPTurbo]

so first you're saying it's the 'gubmints' fault, and now you're implying tdi owners should just suck it up and be happy with their vehicle that doesn't meet advertised specs and has lost substantial resale value.

why do you hate consumers and fair business practices?

[Suaviloquent]

I read somewhere that VW cut a lot of costs by moving production of models to Slovakia and other Eastern European countries and also by moving production of certain Golfs and Audis to Mexico.

They couldn't stomach another $350 out of what I read they cut $7000 of costs of production associated with the then new 2012 Passat.

 

They were being greedy, and while there's plenty of time to discuss the fairness of laws, VW was considered the gold standard and untouchable when it came to diesels. And now they're in a mess.

 

And diesels can be very clean, even with the emissions control equipment enabled to full use, diesels still get great FE. And right now there's a negative spread between diesel and regular, and that's not a coincidence.

[regfootball]

it's not just diesel they are over regulating.  Globally the taxes and regs have created things like a 1.0 litre three turbo in a Ford Mondeo in Europe. etc.

The crossroads in powertrain development Drew alludes to in my mind is the push and pull, the ever increasing demands of regulation (for regulation sake now) are far exceeding the value of investment.  It's ruining the auto industry.  They all stepped up to the plate to make their 1.5's and tiny turbos and hybrids and 10 speed autos, now is not the time to double the requirements again.  It's time to make the technology that is in play now, reliable and cost effective.

We'd all be better off if they stop pussy footing and just come out and say 'all global powertrains shall be capable of either gas-electric hybrid, gas-electric hybrid plug in, or plug in hybrid propulsion.  With credits given for innovation in other fuels.  Let's skip over this struggle spending millions and billions making 2.0's gain 2 more mpg each product cycle when we can just flat out mandate fuel diversity and jump from a 30 mpg car to a 40 mpg car.  Let's get every manufacturer deeply immersed.  Create global tax incentives to entice manufacturers to join forces and engineer fewer but better powertrains.  

I really do think the crossroads is that we need to recognize we've got most of what we can out of pure gas powertrains.  We would see more of an investment with development dollars in standardizing future electric infrastructure.  Let's develop scalable battery technologies.  Let's think about what our charging network is 40 years down the pipe. etc.

 

I love diesels too, and this clearly a diesel witch hunt going on but I can see why any manufacturer would scale back on these.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

unlike some people, I'm not against electrification or hybridization.   I don't like to waste energy and if I can recapture energy when I'm braking to use it for acceleration, than I'm all for it.  If I can power my commute with wind turbines or solar, I'm all for it.  I like silence in my cars and I like lots of torque... both specialties of electric power, but in the end, I'm truly agnostic as to what I use for fuel as long as it has those qualities.  My limitation at the moment is the need for AWD.... there are so few hybrid AWD vehicles right now, and even fewer that are affordable, that it basically takes electrification off the table for me. 

But if GM put the CT6 PHEV powertrain in a new Chevy Avalanche 4x4, I'd be first in line at Chevy with my deposit. 

[ocnblu]

CHEVY HAS COME OUT AND SAID THE BOLT HAS A 238 MILE RANGE!  That's pretty darn good, I just wish I could count on that number consistently, but there are so many variables... seasonal, HVAC related, unknown traffic demands...

[Drew Dowdell]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

CHEVY HAS COME OUT AND SAID THE BOLT HAS A 238 MILE RANGE!  That's pretty darn good, I just wish I could count on that number consistently, but there are so many variables... seasonal, HVAC related, unknown traffic demands...

That's an EPA estimate... so yes it could be variable, but that also means it could be higher.   In the Volt, real world driving returns results that regularly exceed EPA.

[A Horse With No Name]

On 9/10/2016 at 5:38 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Other diesel manufacturers followed the rules.  VW didn't.  VW got busted and tarnished the image of diesel as being a very dirty technology when in fact it can be clean. 

Why did they do this? They did this to further their quest to be the largest auto maker on the planet and save themselves $350 per car.  If TDI buyers are that loyal, they certainly could have stomached an extra $350 for the emissions control equipment. I know I wouldn't even have blinked at that amount and I doubt you would have either.

This was greed and hubris on VW's part....... plain and simple. 

They had numerous other issues in the 2009-2014 cars (2012-2014 Passat sued a different system that did in fact use urea). DPF filters and High Pressure Fuel pumps are just the start.  had they walked through the front door in 2009, they would have a huge loyal following.  But the real problems started when High Pressure Fuel pumps started imploding....which was an $8000 repair when you went to a VW dealer because you basically sent shrapnel through the fuel system.

17 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

unlike some people, I'm not against electrification or hybridization.   I don't like to waste energy and if I can recapture energy when I'm braking to use it for acceleration, than I'm all for it.  If I can power my commute with wind turbines or solar, I'm all for it.  I like silence in my cars and I like lots of torque... both specialties of electric power, but in the end, I'm truly agnostic as to what I use for fuel as long as it has those qualities.  My limitation at the moment is the need for AWD.... there are so few hybrid AWD vehicles right now, and even fewer that are affordable, that it basically takes electrification off the table for me. 

But if GM put the CT6 PHEV powertrain in a new Chevy Avalanche 4x4, I'd be first in line at Chevy with my deposit. 

AWD seems like it would be a natural match for an electrical powertrain....look at how well it works out in the Tesla, which IIRC is all wheel drive, right?

On 9/11/2016 at 11:26 AM, Suaviloquent said:

I read somewhere that VW cut a lot of costs by moving production of models to Slovakia and other Eastern European countries and also by moving production of certain Golfs and Audis to Mexico.

They couldn't stomach another $350 out of what I read they cut $7000 of costs of production associated with the then new 2012 Passat.

 

They were being greedy, and while there's plenty of time to discuss the fairness of laws, VW was considered the gold standard and untouchable when it came to diesels. And now they're in a mess.

 

And diesels can be very clean, even with the emissions control equipment enabled to full use, diesels still get great FE. And right now there's a negative spread between diesel and regular, and that's not a coincidence.

They got really greedy...although cars built in Mexico are quality wise supposed to be just as good as the cars from Germany.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

AWD seems like it would be a natural match for an electrical powertrain....look at how well it works out in the Tesla, which IIRC is all wheel drive, right?

AWD is optional.  If it has a D after the model number, then it's AWD.  The D actually stands for dual motors, one in the front and one in the back. 

[A Horse With No Name]

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

AWD is optional.  If it has a D after the model number, then it's AWD.  The D actually stands for dual motors, one in the front and one in the back. 

With electric, one could forgo the mechanical transfer case and be much more mechanically simple....looking forward to the three....I could see myself getting into a Tesla 3 quite easily.

[Drew Dowdell]

9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

With electric, one could forgo the mechanical transfer case and be much more mechanically simple....looking forward to the three....I could see myself getting into a Tesla 3 quite easily.

There is no transfer case in the AWD Tesla's. Its just a smaller motor unit up front.

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There is no transfer case in the AWD Tesla's. Its just a smaller motor unit up front.

Exactly....at some point the mechanical simplicity of electric has to be a major selling point.  Especially now that they are talking about gas cars having particulate filters and even more complex emissions systems.