Employee Discount

[fbodfather]

welll I didn't get past the first three or four posts.

See........the beauty of being a pundit is that no matter what the company decides, the pundit will spin it to make it look like he knows what he's talking about.

I wonder if a certain someone has paid licensing rights??????

[buickmanwannabe]

welll I didn't get past the first three or four posts.

See........the beauty of being a pundit is that no matter what the company decides, the pundit will spin it to make it look like he knows what he's talking about.

I wonder if a certain someone has paid licensing rights??????

Does anyone have the rights to the buickman troll poster - i could make millions?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ I claim the rights. I created it. Therefore, you can't have the rights.

Ha-ha! I'm going to be one rich bastard soon.

[buickmanwannabe]

^ I claim the rights. I created it. Therefore, you can't have the rights.

Ha-ha! I'm going to be one rich bastard soon.

I made it my screensaver - where do I send the check - gotta love the buickman

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ Free to use, costly to claim. That's my policy.

[regfootball]

i wanna know what some of the previous posters are smoking, likenewbie and carbiz, because if what you say is true then GM would be selling cars at full MSRP they would have 50% market share and none of the GM's sh1t hits the fan business would be happening.

Edited June 27, 2006 by regfootball

[Mr.Krinkle]

i wanna know what some of the previous posters are smoking, likenewbie and carbiz, because if what you say is true then GM would be selling cars at full MSRP they would have 50% market share and none of the GM's sh1t hits the fan business would be happening.

i think that a lot of what they say holds true. it makes me wonder, too.

but i just hope what theyre saying doesnt have anything to do what buickman happens to blowing at them. hes been trying to make this silly little point that has nothing to do what is actualy going to happen, and doesnt quite see what everyone has said at least once before, now...again.

thats too much for one sentence...but here, take the time to read this again.

what if 6 turned into 9, does buickman mind?

here ya go. Here you go.....I actually saved this......you'll find each of Buickman's "steps" followed by MHOs of his "steps." I may be no Evok, but at least this gives you something to ponder.....(sorry for the looooong post)

This whole plan seems to be a Michigan-centric proposal that does next to nothing to really address the major challenges that GM faces….those challenges being over-capacity, excessive costs, lackluster product, and in many cases, a severly-ineffective dealer body. Not much of this plan seems relevant in the “real world” outside of Michigan or the Midwest, nor does it address the challenge of selling, marketing, and promoting GM vehicles to conquest buyers. GM’s problems are far larger than depicted in these twenty points.

A RETURN TO GREATNESS

Step One: When "The Return" is initially announced, we proclaim the

elimination of Destination Charges. If you want to pay freight, get a

foreign car.

· First of all, GM needs revenue……and the destination charges are something that’s acceptable industry-wide. There is no reason to get rid of these charges as long as they are in line with other manufacturer’s charges. To do so will reduce one source of revenue for General Motors.

Step Two: Ten days after the original announcement we release the next step,

the elimination of mid-year price increases.

· Customers neither care or probably realize that mid-year price increases actually take place. GM needs to build value in their products and if you build products that people actually want to buy, then occasional mid-year price adjustments won’t be a factor in GM’s success.

Step Three: Announcement of simplified quarterly incentive changes. No more

pressure to buy now, hurry before it ends, only to be followed by another

program.

· Simplified incentives are fine. However, you will ALWAYS have the situation where someone buys a car and the next day the incentive changes. This will happen whether the incentive is monthly OR quarterly. The very NATURE of the retail automotive industry, in fact ANY sales-oriented industry, is that there will be pressure to “buy now” as companies attempt to meet or exceed monthly, quarterly, or yearly objectives. Furthermore, customers will ALWAYS worry what the “deal” will be. It is in our very nature to negotiate. We do that on houses, and we do that on cars. This is NOT a GM-only fact of life. Furthermore, even if GM WERE to take this step and reduce the “urgency” of the sale, other auto competitors will NOT….and therefore, their existing sense of “urgency” will give them more powerful momentum.

Step Four: Destination Detroit is move number four. In this announcement we

explain our decision to bring all future award winning dealers and

salespeople to Detroit as their reward for a job well done.

· If you are trying to motivate dealers and salespeople, I’m sorry….but a trip to Detroit is NOT going to do it. Hometown pride is great and admirable but it’s a fact of life that Detroit is NOT a leisure or entertainment destination and trying to convince dealers and salespeople to work harder with “Detroit” as a reward will be fruitless at best. I like the idea about a trip to the proving grounds, but in this case, a trip to the Phoenix Proving Grounds would be much more enticing with all the attractions, spas, resorts, and golfing of the Phoenix/Scottsdale area. The expenses saved from executives NOT traveling for this meeting would be minimal and would not strongly impact GM’s bottom line.

Step Five: Home Deliveries. We announce an effort of working with our

dealers to bring the customer the vehicle of their choice, directly to their

place of employment, or residence.

· With every “docs-out” or “home” delivery you do, you take profit opportunities AWAY from the dealership, primarily in the finance department. Maybe home deliveries would be more popular in Michigan, where so many retail customers ARE GM employees….and for them, buying a car is not as big of a deal. In fact, when most GM employees buy multiple cars in a year, and work in the industry, they don’t “need” to take delivery at the dealership. This is most assuredly not the case in the rest of the country. Additionally, customers STILL need to come TO the dealership to shop and negotiate. And in many areas of the country, “spot” deliveries (where the customer takes the car home THAT day) are commonplace. Having a customer wait for a home delivery only reduces profit potential at the dealership AND gives the customer additional time to “rethink” their decision and back out of the deal. It happens.

Step Six: We announce a very simple and easy to understand incentive...Got

GM Get GM. It is a loyalty incentive that anyone can comprehend. If you

currently own or lease a GM vehicle, you receive $1,000. It is stackable and

compatible with any offering, transferable to family member at same address.

No goofy rebate if you own a non-GM car. Who thought of that one anyway? Why

reward disloyalty, or have to ask customers if they own a competitve

product? Let's only give something to those who already support us.

· A GM loyalty incentive is a good idea. However, you cannot stop offering incentives to owners of competing makes. GM cannot survive on its current owners, employees, and retirees for the purchase of GM cars. GM needs to gain market-share from owners of competing makes and one way to do that is to give them a reason to come into a GM dealership. Unfortunately, at this time, the GM product is NOT enough of a reason to entice these consumers. It may be someday, but not now. Incentives are here to stay and as long as GM remains REASONABLE with their incentives and rebates, that’s not a bad thing.

Step Seven: Annual Model Change.

· Once again, if GM does this, they will be at a severe competitive disadvantage. One of the reasons that vehicle introductions became staggered throughout the year, was to gain the “upper hand” against a competitor that was also bringing out a new and competing model. Back 50 years ago, when competition was much less, the Big Three were a mainstay of the U.S. retail auto industry, and all manufacturers introduced new cars in the fall timeframe, this was a great idea. The very nature of the industry now and the number of competitors makes this an unrealistic practice. GM may decide to wait until the fall to introduce their new models, but their competitors surely will not. The competition will be more successful in pulling consumers into their showrooms to sell them their newest products instead of consumers “waiting” until fall to see what GM has to offer.

Step Eight: Increase Dealer Margin.

· Realistically, any increase in margin will be followed by an increase in price. NOW, if GM products get to a strong enough point of acceptance in the marketplace, this increase in price should not be a big issue. They are NOT at this point of acceptance yet. Asking GM to increase margins without a corresponding increase in price is asking GM to give up revenue they desperately need right now.

Step Nine: Get On The Street. Each month, each salary member of VSSM would

be required to spend one day in a randomly selected dealership service

department, preferably in write up.

· All GM employees, (and employees at any manufacturer for that matter) should spend time working in a dealership to get a true feel for the retail environment. However, I don’t see this as being a big impact to the dealership’s productivity. It’s a good idea, but not a big enough impact to probably be included as one of the points in GM’s “Return To Greatness.”

Step Ten: AARP. This is a fantastic demographic, and another opportunity to

simplify incentives. Make it a year-round program.

· AARP is a good program, and a good targeted marketing incentive. However, like above, the impact is likely to be way too small to add to GM’s “Return To Greatness.” AARP, in the overall scheme of things, is a highly-targeted demographic and a correspondingly small proportion of the car-buying public. This incentive would primarily be aimed at GM retirees or Buick consumers. This incentive would do next-to-nothing towards helping convince shoppers at BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Toyota, or Lexus stores to come into a GM dealership.

Step Eleven: Brand Merchandise Offerings: Include with each delivery a

coupon for $50 off, or towards, merchandise from an affinity catalog.

· Good idea. You could target the brand merchandise offerings to match the individual GM divisional brand image. HOWEVER, once again, the impact from this promotion would do little to correct GM’s market share slide. GM’s problem today is WAY bigger than this.

Step Twelve: Auto Shows. Instead of the current practice of giving rebates

to certain residents of surrounding counties, let's offer auto show tickets

to those who test drive our products.

· Auto shows cost, $9, $10, $11 to get in. I don’t see this as making any impact. Auto show tickets alone aren’t going to bring new consumers into a GM dealership.

Step Thirteen: At year end, instead of giving our employees a cash award for

profit sharing, reward them with stock, and make them true partners in the

company's success.

· A nice idea, however, this does nothing to help fix the “core” problem at GM….and that’s the competitiveness of their products and the perception of GM products in the marketplace by those consumers that GM NEEDS to attract from the Japanese and European car shoppers.

Step Fourteen: PEP Cars. Quite often, GM executives turn in their factory

demos with the mileage just under the next price discount level. This

practice is both frustrating and annoying. The inconsideration shown to

fellow employees, and retirees, is inexcusable and unacceptable. GM needs to

announce a policy of driving the unit to the next mileage category whenever

the driver is within say 250 miles of the next price break.

· No impact from this point. GM PEP cars are a phenomenon that only merits any importance from people living in Michigan (or surrounding states where people work at GM factories, etc.) where the majority of GM company cars are in service. Furthermore, these PEP cars are usually sold to GM employees and retirees. Complaining about losing out on an additional GM discount, when you are already getting a substantial discount on a PEP car is a needless and petty point to argue when it has nothing to do with GM gaining market-share in places like Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, and New York.

Step Fifteen: Referral Savings Account. Similar to the GM Card (another

crisis), GM announces a program to accumulate a savings of $50 for each

referral who buys or leases a new vehicle.

· At $50 per referral, a consumer would never accumulate enough dollars to make the incentive strong enough to pull him/her into a GM dealership. Once again, maybe GM employees in Michigan might utilize such a program but in the REST of the country, how many people do you really think would refer a significant number of people to buy a GM car, then to actually redeem those dollars at a GM dealership? GM has to get people to CONSIDER their products for purchase FIRST before you can think about those consumers actually referring someone to buy a GM vehicle.

Step Sixteen: Free GM Smart Care Maintenance Agreement to all GM Retirees.

This 36 month 36,000 mile program would offer free recommended maintenance

to all GM retirees.

· Simply MORE “legacy costs” at a time when GM most assuredly does NOT need them. GM retirees are NOT going to save GM so there is little point in spending money in this way to further incentivize them. They are most likely going to continue to buy GM vehicles ANYWAY due to the discounts they receive. GM needs to spend money to improve product and increase market share….NOT foster goodwill with retirees.

Step Seventeen: GM Card. This was one of the best programs GM has ever had.

That was until someone decided to take earnings away, and thereby alienate

thousands of employee cardholders.

· I cannot comment as I am unfamiliar with the GM Card and recent activity that has supposedly made it a less-than-desirable incentive.

Step Eighteen: Sales Guilds. For years GM had brand specific sales guilds.

Now, everything is combined into the GM Mark of Excellence. It's a decent

enough program, but it would be more effective to return to the old days of

Buick Salesmaster and the Chevrolet Legion of Leaders.

· Unlikely to strongly impact GM’s falling market-share. The salespeople need good, competitive product to sell. That’s the first step.

Step Nineteen: Direct Factory Communication: Imagine going to your local

dealer and ordering a new vehicle.

· What percentage of GM vehicle purchases are actually custom-ordered? Not many. Due to this fact, this point has very little impact on GM’s overall challenges.

Step Twenty: Reinstatement of Regional Sales Training Classes. Years ago, GM

offered professional sales development classes at their regional training

centers.

· This point adds serious cost, which GM cannot afford right now. Sales training is ALWAYS beneficial, but most manufacturers these days utilize various computer and internet tools to train salespeople. Additionally, the dealership sales managers should be empowered to make sure their respective sales forces are properly trained. That is one function that the individual GM district sales manager should be responsible for on a local level. Regional sales training centers are an unnecessary expense. If a salesperson is not disciplined enough to utilize the computer, internet, and print materials available to him/her, than they shouldn’t be in the business in the first place.

Please respond with your thoughts, and PROXIES.

I just did!

originally from the o.c.

still fighting that good fight, huh?? some of us anyway.

Edited June 27, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Newbiewar]

i wanna know what some of the previous posters are smoking, likenewbie and carbiz, because if what you say is true then GM would be selling cars at full MSRP they would have 50% market share and none of the GM's sh1t hits the fan business would be happening.

GM doesnt care what the vehicles sell for at the dealership...

thats flat out... GM doesnt care...

as long as they are selling, and customers are happy...

now... if you want to think about Employee discount... this is where dealerships get disgruntled, its where fleet managers ask for their sales liscense to change dealerships...

think about it this way... your a dealership, lets say we're talking about an 07 tahoe LS base price MSRP around 34,500 so... lets say the invoice from GM is around 32,000 and the dealership is washing the vehicle (probably more then once, because its going to sit on the lot for 50 days)... lets even say it sits on the dealership for over 100 days, well the banks get upset that the money is tied up... so they start charging daily that the vehicle sits on the lot... we've got electricity, we've got to fill the vehicle with fuel, we've got to file enormus amounts of paperwork... and at our dealership we'll give a second take of gaslone as well as a free oil change, only to sell the vehicle for 31,000.... and GM mandated that price... one couldnt charge more the 75$ over what GMS was...

so lets get this straight....

purchase the vehicle from GM for 32k

+washing costs (usually washed twice a week at 50cents a car) so its a dollar per week or so... average stay for a vehicle i think chevys is like 38 days... 38/7 = 5-6$ plus the detail when its eventaully sold... so... like 20$ total?

2 tanks of gas... thats on a new tahoe about 50 galons of gas? 50*3.20 = 160$

first oil change for free... which results in another free tank of gas... so we've got another 120$ there...

paperwork...

if the vehicle sits on the lot for more then 100 days, the banks charge intrest...

so we've got...

32,000+20+160+120+ paperwork and intrest 32,300 and then we sell it for 31,000?

sure the dealership will get 1000$ or more back from hold back, but GMS is designed for the dealership to make 0$'s on the vehicle...

so... the customers get accustom to that?... this here in lies the problem...

[Mr.Krinkle]

GM doesnt care what the vehicles sell for at the dealership...

thats flat out... GM doesnt care...

as long as they are selling, and customers are happy...

now... if you want to think about Employee discount... this is where dealerships get disgruntled, its where fleet managers ask for their sales liscense to change dealerships...

think about it this way... your a dealership, lets say we're talking about an 07 tahoe LS base price MSRP around 34,500 so... lets say the invoice from GM is around 32,000 and the dealership is washing the vehicle (probably more then once, because its going to sit on the lot for 50 days)... lets even say it sits on the dealership for over 100 days, well the banks get upset that the money is tied up... so they start charging daily that the vehicle sits on the lot... we've got electricity, we've got to fill the vehicle with fuel, we've got to file enormus amounts of paperwork... and at our dealership we'll give a second take of gaslone as well as a free oil change, only to sell the vehicle for 31,000.... and GM mandated that price... one couldnt charge more the 75$ over what GMS was...

so lets get this straight....

purchase the vehicle from GM for 32k

+washing costs (usually washed twice a week at 50cents a car) so its a dollar per week or so... average stay for a vehicle i think chevys is like 38 days... 38/7 = 5-6$  plus the detail when its eventaully sold... so... like 20$ total?

2 tanks of gas... thats on a new tahoe about 50 galons of gas? 50*3.20 = 160$

first oil change for free... which results in another free tank of gas... so we've got another 120$ there...

paperwork...

if the vehicle sits on the lot for more then 100 days, the banks charge intrest...

so we've got...

32,000+20+160+120+ paperwork and intrest 32,300 and then we sell it for 31,000?

sure the dealership will get 1000$ or more back from hold back, but GMS is designed for the dealership to make 0$'s on the vehicle...

so... the customers get accustom to that?... this here in lies the problem...

wow, i never heard it put that way.

[Newbiewar]

wow, i never heard it put that way.

thats what employee discounts were...

and then the dealership still must pay the salespeople, the finance guys, the desk managers, the closers, the owners... and with what money?

[LTB51]

  I've challenged customers on what the advantage of a 5 spd transmisison is and WITHOUT EXCEPTION they shrug or mumble somethng that they read somewhere it was better.

I don't see your point. Unless you are implying that the people who end up at your dealership are generally uninformed. Am I correct to assume that you don't tell them why the 5SPD is better and that most of the cars you are selling have 4SPDs?

And to the clown,

Classy....

  If you only compare technical features and stuff that matters to auto journalists, then the Civic may have the edge.  But if you look at the things that matter to the average consumer, the Civic is not better. 

  How about not having a split folding rear seat?  HOw about having not being able to pop the trunk from your remote fob?

You know as well as I do which is the better product. Sure, if you don't understand anything beyond a monthly payment or are lucky enough to have a salesperson convince you that more torque=better fuel economy, or that since you don't know what a 5SPD is it isn't better than a 4SPD.... then you might end up thinking the cobalt compares.

I think a split folding seat is a nice feature.... but if that is all the cobalt has over the civic when the civic has so much over the cobalt then it is no wonder the civic sells so much better. (But if we want to talk about relatively trivial things... how does that compare to not having center storage with an MT?... Or to having a trunk which has such an akward opening?)

And I think $50 a month (the difference in a lease payment in this area) is something to talk about, unless you are Daddy Warbucks.

I know a lot of people don't look past the monthly payment. They think that is the cost.

I wish I could compare your figures, but for some reason I can't find any lease details on GM's Canadian website. But as the LT with air bags and MP3 is only $900 more than a civic LX, and with the disasterous residual on the cobalt (I am only guessing... GM doesn't seem to provide it), I can't imagine that the Cobalt wouldn't be more to lease.

But assuming your $50 is correct, at 12,000 miles/year, $3.2/gallon, and at the fuel economy numbers mentioned below the civic will cost ~2,200 less in gas over 4 years. That pretty much makes up the $2,400 difference in lease payments (assuming that is accurate).

And even with all that, how do you put a value on sleeping in on Saturdays because you don't have a cobalt that is about as reliable as a 5-7 year old Civic? To not having to worry about your car? (I know some people don't like CR, but they are the most accurate thing we have right now, and the Cobalt is not reliable by any measure I have seen.)

  The Civic may win in the Gee-Whizz department of Jetsons interiors, but that can work against them, too.  The Civic looks good on paper, but in real driving conditions their lower torque numbers are not going to result in significantly better gas mileage than the Cobalt.

Again, I imagine some people believe that. A full sized truck has more peak torque than the civic, so it must get better mileage as well, right? I guess not. There must be some other factors at play...

I was on a road trip in a civic recently. 3 large adults, a full trunk, and thanks to the 5SP AT (I actually know what it does... but even if I didn't I don't suppose it would have affected whatever it does), and the engine was at 2200 RPM at ~110KM/h with the AC on. You can imagine what kind of fuel economy a 1.8L with a goofily aerodynamic body gets at 2200RPM. Even my TL 6MT is at 2400RPM at that speed (but of course it gets better fuel economy because it has higher peak torque).

AutoSite got 33.2 real world with the Civic and 22.6 with the Cobalt.

http://www.autosite.com/content/shared/art...cle_id_int/1084

http://www.autosite.com/content/shared/art...icle_id_int/516

I will concede that GM could have tried a little harder in the interior department, but then the LT coupe with the graphite interior is pretty sharp.

I think styling is the only place where someone could pick the Cobalt over the Civic. The Civic's styling just isn't for everyone. 0-60 must be a little faster in the cobalt as well.

I understand that you are protecting your job and your company when you sell a cobalt, but please don't pretend that you are doing the consumer any favors... or that someone who buys a civic over a cobalt was some sort of lost sheep. The opposite seems true to me.

As a matter of interest, how much would I have to pay GM for a 7 year/100,000 mile comprehensive warranty on a Cobalt LT1? I really can't find GM's extended warranty costs on their web site.

[Mr.Krinkle]

thats what employee discounts were...

and then the dealership still must pay the salespeople, the finance guys, the desk managers, the closers, the owners... and with what money?

well it wasnt anything i wanted anyone to get their panties in a bunch about but the fct still remains theres a lot of paperwork and interest, and a lot of other costs too.

i think the botton line objective now is good product. and from what ive seen its a comin'.

lets keep them there fingers crossed.

yes. yes.

i wishi i had more time.

[evok]

wow, i never heard it put that way.

It is also a lot more complicated than that.

There is a service department?

There is the used car department?

There is undercoating, lo-jack, extended warranty, etc.

A dealership is a lot more than just selling new cars.

[evok]

thank you...

according to the Insurance instatue for highway safty, the cobalt got a "good" rating in its crash test ratings while the corolla got "poor" and the civic wasnt even tested...

No the Cobalt reveived an Acceptable from the IIHS when equipped with side curtain bags. And just like the Corolla received a poor when not equipped.

[91z4me]

It is also a lot more complicated than that.

There is a service department?

There is the used car department?

There is undercoating, lo-jack, extended warranty, etc.

A dealership is a lot more than just selling new cars.

There was a local Chevy dealer advertising free seat protectant and paint protectant applied to each car, a $1000 value! Also new car dealers make more money selling used cars than they do anything else. Buy at auction and mark above average retail and then sell at average retail = $$$. Then you get people who just want to get into the new car and will take whatever you give them for the trade just so they don't have to deal with selling the car privately.

[Newbiewar]

It is also a lot more complicated than that.

There is a service department?

There is the used car department?

There is undercoating, lo-jack, extended warranty, etc.

A dealership is a lot more than just selling new cars.

yep, there is a lot of that going on... but a dealership that focuses on volume must focus on new cars, because used cars expecially now are difficult to get...

No the Cobalt reveived an Acceptable from the IIHS when equipped with side curtain bags.  And just like the Corolla received a poor when not equipped.

hrmmm thats intresting... got that tid bit from our product trainer... he didnt mention that

There was a local Chevy dealer advertising free seat protectant and paint protectant applied to each car, a $1000 value!  Also new car dealers make more money selling used cars than they do anything else.  Buy at auction and mark above average retail and then sell at average retail = $$$.  Then you get people who just want to get into the new car and will take whatever you give them for the trade just so they don't have to deal with selling the car privately.

yea, some dealership will really rip you off... we post kellybluebook on every window and we never ask for more....

some dealership will charge you a lot for stuff... but thats not what we're here for... we're here to sell you a car not lo-jack or extra paint... but if you want it...

[The O.C.]

Return to Greatness will provide the impetus necessary to jump start sales utilizing what we currently have on the blacktop, and do so in a much less expensive and far more productive manner.

Buickman

<groan>

BM.....would you like me to post my responses to your "20 Points" again so that we (YOU INCLUDED THIS TIME) can "discuss" how your "Return to Greatness" will "provide the impetus necessary to jump start sales...."

??

[Satty]

<groan>

BM.....would you like me to post my responses to your "20 Points" again so that we (YOU INCLUDED THIS TIME) can "discuss" how your "Return to Greatness" will "provide the impetus necessary to jump start sales...."

??

He cant right now, he's hard at work selling Buicks to the Toyota humpers and other import afficianados of Flint, Mi.

[The O.C.]

why does everyone discount gm on their pushrods?

the technology is proven to be reliable, GM's v6's get more fuel ecconomy then some of the DOHC competition... and they are plenty powerful, so whats the problem?

i remember racing a 3.5 altima in a 3.4L 2005 impala a few months ago while i was on the job, and there wasnt a comparason... the impala was the faster car...

one of my coworkers has an accura TL with the v6 he says it has 260 hp or something like that, but its only that much power at like 7000 rpms... he doesnt like that vtec technology, it doesnt have the power were you want it....

(OK...here I go again...)

In general, GM's pushrod V6s are not as powerful as most DOHC/multi-valve V6s....and the fuel economy debate is arguable.....

(I averaged 21.5mpg over 300miles in a Grand Prix 3800 V6 in mixed driving that had actually very little stop-and-go. This is consistent with what I used to average with my Mazda6's 3.0L V6.)

Yes....they are reliable....but so are most modern engines these days. What they are not, is as quiet, free-revving, or as smooth overall as the more modern DOHC counterparts.

BUT....people mostly rag on GM's pushrod V6s because most consumers today PERCEIVE the competition's DOHC motors to be more modern, efficient, powerful, and reliable.

Whether that perception is true or not, it does not make logical sense for GM to pursue a powertrain strategy that goes contrary to the rest of the market (domestics included) and contrary to what many consumers relate as "superior" or "up-to-date."

And.....BTW.....there's NO way a 3.4L Impala could outrun an Altima 3.5L. The Nissan driver was certainly not racing.

Look at horsepower and torque specs....or look at buff mag road test acceleration numbers....there's no way it would happen. Even the fastest time a SC w-body has ever shown (0-60 in 6.6secs) in the buff mags is not as quick as what automatic-equipped Altimas have shown (0-60 in 6.2 or so....manuals dipping below 6.0 flat).

And you mean to tell me an 185hp 3.4L Impala out ran one?

In any event, GM has shown they can build a masterful, world-class DOHC, multi-valve V6 in their great 3.6L HF V6.

[Guest buickman]

<groan>

BM.....would you like me to post my responses to your "20 Points" again so that we (YOU INCLUDED THIS TIME) can "discuss" how your "Return to Greatness" will "provide the impetus necessary to jump start sales...."

??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Certainly. I'll look forward to the discussion.

[evok]

<groan>

BM.....would you like me to post my responses to your "20 Points" again so that we (YOU INCLUDED THIS TIME) can "discuss" how your "Return to Greatness" will "provide the impetus necessary to jump start sales...."

??

No need to:

LaNeve laughed at him.

Wagoner laughed at him.

That is all that counts.

[Guest buickman]

No need to:

LaNeve laughed at him.

Wagoner laughed at him.

That is all that counts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Trust me, neither one laughed.

[Mr.Krinkle]

but wait, these are only the first 20 steps.

it starts to get really good after about step 42.

then its nice and warmed up and by step 296 its smooth sailing towards profitibility

and, yes thats right and market share?

or was it 286?

if i recall, step 327 is annoint bm ceo and king of GM.

[The O.C.]

Certainly. I'll look forward to the discussion.

I see that they were actually posted a few posts back by Mr. Krinkle......

BM....go take a look and review....I'd LOVE to hear your comments....point-by-point!

(Thanks, Krink....)

[evok]

Trust me, neither one laughed.

After one look at your plan - no doubt they did.

Especially in hindsight of your childish behavior.

[Mr.Krinkle]

yup, no prob. you took the time to write all that someone should actually read it, maybe even learn a thing or two. makes sense.

oh, but just dont look behind the curtain. save yourself the trouble.

[evok]

but wait,  these are only the first 20 steps.

it starts to get really good after about step 42.

then its nice and warmed up and by step 296 its smooth sailing towards profitibility

and, yes thats right and market share?

or was it 286?

if i recall, step 327 is annoint bm ceo and king of GM.

Oh yes - sort of like George H. W. Bush's 1000 Points of Light.

You missed all the fun last year as the BM tried to keep his 20 Pts hidden from the public boards. Well since I got them from private channels other than the BM himself I posted them.

I left it stating I will comment on them in 6 months and see what other OEM used those brillant marketing ideas.

6 months came and went. To my surprise, not one OEM.

Again another 6 months have passed and still not one OEM has used the BMs Return to Greatness.

I just wonder why!

[Mr.Krinkle]

ya know, they gave him the time of day and probably didnt even take the time to baby step him through all the reasons why its not the best strategy but low and behold someone does and he does not defend it rationally or intelligently but simply says it will work, because i know it will work.

he just sticks to those guns and refuses to comment on the critique, or at least rebut as to why...

maybe one day him and the guy who invented beta max will share a padded room stroking eachother saying things like, it couldve worked, it shouldve worked if i only had the chance.

unless of course the same guy invented vhs.

and still nothing. is it time to move on yet? where are those damned tea leaves.

[evok]

ya know, they gave him the time of day and probably didnt even take the time to baby step him through all the reasons why its not the best strategy but low and behold someone does and he does not defend it rationally or intelligently but simply says it will work, because i know it will work.

he just sticks to those guns and refuses to comment on the critique, or at least rebut as to why...

maybe one day him and the guy who invented beta max will share a padded room stroking eachother saying things like, it couldve worked, it shouldve worked if i only had the chance.

unless of course the same guy invented vhs.

and still nothing.  is it time to move on yet?  where are those damned tea leaves.

When the BM met with LaNeve, LaNeve just took over the VP job.

Forgetting about what we know of the BM and his personality today, I ask the question, would you or I if in LaNeve's shoes turned down a meeting to "brain storm" with a top salesman on the retail level?

Without hindsight I would have met with him. Out of courtesy if nothing else.

After reading the plan and seeing what he is like in person, would I have hired him as a consultant?

No way. The BM is not a team player.

On top of that, when BM met with LaNeve, GM had yet to loose money or give an indication publically that there was a major costly restructuring on the horizon.

This was not about Red Ink, or Rabid Rick at the time.

It could not have been because at the time, the status quo was happeing at GM.

It was not until the BM got the bad news that his services will not be needed, that he became venomous publically.

In a nut shell (no pun intended) his ego was hurt!

Edited June 27, 2006 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

After reading the plan and seeing what he is like in person, would I have hired him as a consultant?

No way.  The BM is not a team player.

and then to top it all off he continues to shoot himself in the foot.

there seems to be no growth or adaptability here.

you get more bees with honey than you do with a shotgun. and the tangent continues. even if by some miracle someone somewhere decided, sure its ok,

that must be a first few awkward moments.

"sorry about all that red ink rick and how inept and unqualified blather i ranted on about for months"

no, not a team player in the least. at least thats not what we are seeing so far.

im not gonna hold my breath.

[evok]

and then to top it all off he continues to shoot himself in the foot.

there seems to be no growth or adaptability here.

you get more bees with honey than you do with a shotgun.  and  the tangent continues.  even if by some miracle someone somewhere decided, sure its ok,

that must be a first few awkward moments.

"sorry about all that red ink rick and how inept and unqualified blather i ranted on about for months"

no, not a team player in the least.  at least thats not what we are seeing so far.

im not gonna hold my breath.

Would you want this guy working for you?

http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/autoline/archives_2005.php

922

7/10/05 Segment 1: Journalists discuss the impact of employee discount programs

Panel:

John McElroy, Host, Autoline Detroit

Drew Winter, Wards AutoWorld

Carol Cain, Detroit Free Press

Segment 2:

Jim Dollinger, undoubtedly the best salesman GM ever had, explains his 50-point program for turning GM around!

Segment 3: A look at Mitsubishi's problems and products

Edited June 27, 2006 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

Would you want this guy working for you?

well, after finally getting to watch this, no.

the bruised ego and comes through the rants is also written elsewhere.

i could get into exactly what i thought or my observations but ill leave it

at he had a nice suit.

[CARBIZ]

Sorry, folks, but I have to break up this little love-in to teach LTB51 a few facts of life.

Sir, I don't mislead or confuse or befuddle my customers. I educate them to the total BS that we are having shoved down our throats by Japan Inc's war machine and by the lapdogs that we call the free press.

If you truly believe that the Civic is the best small car out there, based on all the facts, then I want the phone number of your drug dealer because you are smoking better stuff than I can get.

Off the HondaCanada website, a brand new 2006 Civic coupe DX-G with automatic (the way that 90% of the public wants them) sells for $20,530, plus freight for a price of $21,755. I might add that they charge $152 for a block heater (standard on the Cobalt) and $654 for fog lights (standard on the Cobalt LT). The AMAZING vehicle has 15" steel wheels with plastic covers, a 1.8 litre engine 140hp/128lb.ft. It has a 11.6 cu ft trunk (Cobalt has 14). The Cobalt is 145hp/155lb.ft - yeah, I know, torque doesn't matter. That's why Hondas and Mazdas sound like Moulinex mixers on acid as they whine by on the street.

This vehicle leases out for $333+taxes=$383 a month. Their due on delivery is listed as $784, but that doesn't cover admin, registration or taxes, so I'll round that up to $1,300 - it could be more, but most dealers charge $3-400 for admin and taxes are 15%. Their buy back is listed as $9,444 and an interest rate of 5.9%. And judging by how rude the dealers in our area are, forget about discounts.

I, on the other hand have (in stock) a 2006 LT coupe, with heated leather seats, sunroof, 16" Pirelli tires and alloy rims, side air bags, leather steering wheel with radio controls, 220W Pioneer system with 10" subwoofer, XM radio (3 months free) power sunroof, 4 spd automatic, which stickers at $24,470, for (ready for this) $304+txs = $350 with ONLY $350 due on signing. Now, to make it even with the Honda offer, my payment would be about $328 taxes in with $1,328 due on delivery.

KEEPING UP SO FAR?

So, Chevrolet can give you more power, leather, sunroof, a kick ass sound system, power everything, ABS, your precious safety stuff, a bigger trunk, bigger tires, better rubber, a split rear seat, easy entry front passenger seat (ever try and get in and out of a Honda? Didn't think so!), foldaway mirrors....well, I could go on AND $55 per month LESS.

And $55X48=$2,640 and their buy back is $635 More (so much for Honda resale!)

And you don't think a 4 year old Cobalt with leather seats, 16" Pirellis and a sunroof won't sell for more than a DX-G Civic????????? Are you high?

I can give you a Cobalt SS sedan, with 2.4 litre engine, leather and sunroof for less money than the DX-G!!!!

I, sir, deal in the real world. I get out and talk to the people driving these cars. Honda builds a good product, no question. But if you are a young person, at their first job, wouldn't $55 a month be better in your pocket????? People I deal with can barely afford $300 a month, let alone $380.

As to the BS about Honda being a more durable car - again PTHHHHHHHHHHH....

DesRosiers marketing (Canadian equivalent of JD Powers) did a survey in 2000 and they discovered (horrors) that there were more American cars still on the road in both categories they studied (pre-1987 and post 1987) than Japanese, as a percentage of vehicles that were sold. They compared annual vehicle sales versus plates still licensed in Canada. They were at a loss to explain why this was the case. Perhaps Japanese cars were stolen more and sold for parts, perhaps they rusted and fell apart...who knows, but even the rag Toronto Star (which loves everything imported) expressed being intrigued by this.

I could go on, but clearly you are already brainwashed and won't be swayed by facts.

Oh, did I mention that I our company owns 2 Toyota stores. I know where the bodies are buried, sir.

[Mr.Krinkle]

yeah, you tell him. dont take no sh*t from nobody.

--jimmy conway

DesRosiers marketing (Canadian equivalent of JD Powers) did a survey in 2000 and they discovered (horrors) that there were more American cars still on the road in both categories they studied (pre-1987 and post 1987) than Japanese, as a percentage of vehicles that were sold. They compared annual vehicle sales versus plates still licensed in Canada. They were at a loss to explain why this was the case. Perhaps Japanese cars were stolen more and sold for parts, perhaps they rusted and fell apart...who knows, but even the rag Toronto Star (which loves everything imported) expressed being intrigued by this.

I could go on, but clearly you are already brainwashed and won't be swayed by facts.

does anyone know what the statistics in the US are for something like this?

id like to see that breakdown.

[Newbiewar]

Well i hate to get this conversation on topic again... but!

72 Hour Sale

Get a great deal on almost every 2006 Chevy car, truck and SUV: 0% APR for 72 months!

But hurry! The 72-Hour Sale ends July 5, 2006!

‘06 CHEVY CARS

Aveo, Cobalt, Impala, Malibu, Malibu Maxx and Monte Carlo (excludes Corvette).

‘06 CHEVY TRUCKS

Avalanche, Colorado, SSR and Silverado (excludes medium-duty trucks)

‘06 CHEVY SUVS

Equinox, HHR, Suburban, Tahoe and TrailBlazer.

Monthly payment is $13.89 for every $1000 financed. Average example down payment is: 10%. Some customers will not qualify. Excludes Corvette and medium-duty trucks. Not available with other offers. See dealer for details. Take delivery by 7/5/06.

[Guest buickman]

Perhaps the biggest part of the so called 72 hour sale, which lasts for 9 days, is how EVERYONE is being approved. We haven't yet seen ANYONE turned down! If you know of people with horrible credit, tell them now is the time. Hurry before GM goes completely tilt!

Buickman

[Newbiewar]

Perhaps the biggest part of the so called 72 hour sale, which lasts for 9 days, is how EVERYONE is being approved. We haven't yet seen ANYONE turned down! If you know of people with horrible credit, tell them now is the time. Hurry before GM goes completely tilt!

Buickman

hrmm thats intresting...

[regfootball]

"without directly answering your questions with specifics"..........

[regfootball]

UGH! that Carol Cain is NASTY! A definite TWO BAGGER!

[regfootball]

yet, I am very.............................. DRAWN TO HER

I wonder what her favorite liqeur is...........

Edited June 28, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

"it's not product"

"the right product makes the difference"

?

[Newbiewar]

"without directly answering your questions with specifics"..........

UGH!  that Carol Cain is NASTY! A definite TWO BAGGER!

yet, I am very.............................. DRAWN TO HER

 

 

off topic?

[regfootball]

off topic?

just a momentary smoke break from the topic........

did u watch the video? that's be where the quotes are from.

Edited June 28, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

so, is it about product or not?

[regfootball]

Sorry, folks, but I have to break up this little love-in to teach LTB51 a few facts of life.

  Sir, I don't mislead or confuse or befuddle my customers.  I educate them to the total BS that we are having shoved down our throats by Japan Inc's war machine and by the lapdogs that we call the free press.

  If you truly believe that the Civic is the best small car out there, based on all the facts, then I want the phone number of your drug dealer because you are smoking better stuff than I can get.

  Off the HondaCanada website, a brand new 2006 Civic coupe DX-G with automatic (the way that 90% of the public wants them) sells for $20,530, plus freight for a price of $21,755.  I might add that they charge $152 for a block heater (standard on the Cobalt) and $654 for fog lights (standard on the Cobalt LT).  The AMAZING vehicle has 15" steel wheels with plastic covers, a 1.8 litre engine 140hp/128lb.ft.  It has a 11.6 cu ft trunk (Cobalt has 14).  The Cobalt is 145hp/155lb.ft - yeah, I know, torque doesn't matter.  That's why Hondas and Mazdas sound like Moulinex mixers on acid as they whine by on the street.

  This vehicle leases out for $333+taxes=$383 a month.  Their due on delivery is listed as $784, but that doesn't cover admin, registration or taxes, so I'll round that up to $1,300 - it could be more, but most dealers charge $3-400 for admin and taxes are 15%.  Their buy back is listed as $9,444 and an interest rate of 5.9%.  And judging by how rude the dealers in our area are, forget about discounts.

I, on the other hand have (in stock) a 2006 LT coupe, with heated leather seats, sunroof, 16" Pirelli tires and alloy rims, side air bags, leather steering wheel with radio controls, 220W Pioneer system with 10" subwoofer, XM radio (3 months free) power sunroof, 4 spd automatic, which stickers at $24,470, for (ready for this) $304+txs = $350 with ONLY $350 due on signing.  Now, to make it even with the Honda offer, my payment would be about $328 taxes in with $1,328 due on delivery.

  KEEPING UP SO FAR?

  So, Chevrolet can give you more power, leather, sunroof, a kick ass sound system, power everything, ABS, your precious safety stuff, a bigger trunk, bigger tires, better rubber, a split rear seat, easy entry front passenger seat (ever try and get in and out of a Honda?  Didn't think so!), foldaway mirrors....well, I could go on  AND $55 per month LESS.

  And $55X48=$2,640 and their buy back is $635 More (so much for Honda resale!)

  And you don't think a 4 year old Cobalt with leather seats, 16" Pirellis and a sunroof won't sell for more than a DX-G Civic?????????  Are you high?

  I can give you a Cobalt SS sedan, with 2.4 litre engine, leather and sunroof for less money than the DX-G!!!!

  I, sir, deal in the real world.  I get out and talk to the people driving these cars.  Honda builds a good product, no question.  But if you are a young person, at their first job, wouldn't $55 a month be better in your pocket?????  People I deal with can barely afford $300 a month, let alone $380.

  As to the BS about Honda being a more durable car - again PTHHHHHHHHHHH....

  DesRosiers marketing (Canadian equivalent of JD Powers) did a survey in 2000 and they discovered (horrors) that there were more American cars still on the road in both categories they studied (pre-1987 and post 1987) than Japanese, as a percentage of vehicles that were sold.  They compared annual vehicle sales versus plates still licensed in Canada.  They were at a loss to explain why this was the case.  Perhaps Japanese cars were stolen more and sold for parts, perhaps they rusted and fell apart...who knows, but even the rag Toronto Star (which loves everything imported) expressed being intrigued by this.

  I could go on, but clearly you are already brainwashed and won't be swayed by facts.

  Oh, did I mention that I our company owns 2 Toyota stores.  I know where the bodies are buried, sir.

A lot of the love for foreign nameplates in the car biz is simply the same thing as designer clothing. The product mainly exists for self affirmation of the more highly paid professional types, and the well to do. Its like Polo jeans vs. Levis or even wranglers. They inject enough style difference in the product to enable them to sell it for x more. Then through marketing, press and self indulgent chatter amongst other 'haves' they find multiple ways to justify why spending more is 'worth more'.

That's why that Cobalt doesn't appeal to a yuppie. The name. Sure Hondas are more refined in a lot of their cars, but its not enough to justify the price differences, at least for people whose checkbook is very important as opposed to worrying about what image the car does for them.

Myself personally, the loaded Cobalt with the bigger engine and thicker sheetmetal at a cheaper price is a no brainer. Especially when the latest Civic is so DAMN UGLY.

[97regalGS]

it's about perception. the public perceives Honda's as better. I see tons of new Civics around Toronto. Even at the high interest rates. it kills me.

and the Cobalt doesn't have anything going for it that would draw a Civic buyer into the showroom. by that I mean, it is boring looking. if it had some exterior style, panache, that would at least be something to draw in prospective buyers into the showroom, where guys like carbiz can 'sell' them on the reasons to buy a Cobalt vs Civic. (granted, the coupe SS has a look to it, and even the SS sedan is better looking that the base, but the cars you see running around the streets are mostly base models)

[Newbiewar]

it's about perception.  the public perceives Honda's as better.  I see tons of new Civics around Toronto.  Even at the high interest rates.  it kills me.

and the Cobalt doesn't have anything going for it that would draw a Civic buyer into the showroom. by that I mean, it is boring looking.  if it had some exterior style, panache, that would at least be something to draw in prospective buyers into the showroom, where guys like carbiz can 'sell' them on the reasons to buy a Cobalt vs Civic.  (granted, the coupe SS has a look to it, and even the SS sedan is better looking that the base, but the cars you see running around the streets are mostly base models)

i think the LTZ cobalts are the best looking compact sedans on the market...

the chrome makes it so much cleaner looking

[BigPontiac]

i think the LTZ cobalts are the best looking compact sedans on the market...

the chrome makes it so much cleaner looking

$20K buys you a Mazda3 S Grand Touring 4-door sedan with a manual trans, xenon headlights, heated leather seats, tilt/telescoping steering wheel, 4 wheel disc brakes, 4 wheel independent suspension, ABS, side airbags, electroluminescent gauges, automatic climate control, trip computer, 17" V-rated tires, tire pressure monitoring system, etc etc. 2.3L 160hp, 26/32MPG, 48mo warranty. FUN TO DRIVE.

I'd take that in a heartbeat over a Cobalt. All I'd add is the sunroof/bose package bring the cost up to $21K.

P.S. -- it also offers a NAV option and 5speed automatic trans...

[regfootball]

$20K buys you a Mazda3 S Grand Touring 4-door sedan with a manual trans, xenon headlights, heated leather seats, tilt/telescoping steering wheel, 4 wheel disc brakes, 4 wheel independent suspension, ABS, side airbags, electroluminescent gauges, automatic climate control, trip computer, 17" V-rated tires, tire pressure monitoring system, etc etc.  2.3L 160hp, 26/32MPG, 48mo warranty.  FUN TO DRIVE.

I'd take that in a heartbeat over a Cobalt.  All I'd add is the sunroof/bose package bring the cost up to $21K.

P.S. -- it also offers a NAV option and 5speed automatic trans...

oddly, the 20 grand almost gets you a mazda6 trimmed the same way........

[BigPontiac]

oddly, the 20 grand almost gets you a mazda6 trimmed the same way........

The MazdaSpeed6 is a pretty sweet ride too...

$20K would also buy a CPO 3-4 year old BMW 3-Series with a 100K warranty...which is the route I took instead of buying a Mazda3 2 years ago when I was "shopping" in that price range. Mine was an off lease 323i with 30k on it that had 1 year of the factory warranty remaining before the extension kicked in.