Employee Discount

[Mr.Krinkle]

tell ya what. you keep your cars and we'll keep our oil, wood, nickel, and other natural resources. oh, and by the way, you're gonna have to start sending that oil from Alaska via ship now.

dont forget timber.

i think the difference between canada and mexic is along the lines of mexico was long established before we got here. roughly the same time, the french and english and not to make it a history lesson for the most part were all here together as north Americans.

and molson too. the oldest brewery in na. thats the real reason canada not going anywhere. you can keep the oil.

[The O.C.]

OC, the point I am making is that sitting in traffic, driving to work - you would be happy to have a smooth, quiet Allure or Fusion and save the ten grand.  Sure, the once a month you get to open it up on a back road makes a BMW seem worth it, but at the end of the day, I'd rather have the ten grand in a retirment investment or put it towards a boat.

  I picked the DX-G, not the LX because that is what they sell.  Just like our LT is popular.  I only picked leather, etc. on the Cobalt just to show how much MORE equipment you can get for $50 a month less.

Point #1 - I've had the pleasure (and experience) of owning four different BMWs as well as countless GM products (when I was working for GM, etc) and even sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic there is a quality and feel to a BMW (or an Audi, etc.) that is simply lacking in most GM cars. That's not a dig at GM....just that in some ways the extra costs of the German makes ARE accounted for in certain ways.

A BMW is not JUST about "opening it up on a back road."

Sure affordability comes into play.....but for people that CAN afford the German brand....they will most likely pay for it if they like the car.

Point #2 - Here in southern California, it's the LX Civic that makes up the vast majority of sales of Civics on Honda lots here. I haven't even found ONE DX-G on the lot.....

The LX is the comparable volume seller in the Civic lineup.

[The O.C.]

the fusion is much nicer than the X3.  the X3 is the CIM A RR ON of SUV's.....

I'll admit the X3 is not my favorite BMW.....but if I could afford both cars, I'd take an X3 ANY day over a Fusion.

I'll estimate that you haven't driven an X3....or really even sat in too many of them. Yes, interior materials leave something to be desired compared to most other BMWs, but the little SUV reaks of "BMW" when you drive it. It handles like a sport sedan and has that super-smooth BMW inline 6.

C&D road test......0-60 in 7.4secs with the 3.0L and 6-speed manual. 0.88g (!) on the skidpad with the sport package.

It may be ugly, but it's a rockin' little SUV.

[The O.C.]

In the real world, people base their decisions on ability, not ethics or sentimentalism. GM sells on product, not on some notion of patriotism. Want more buyers? Don't whine or bitch. Make better products. Have a $h!ty image? Change that through creative branding and planning. It's a market economy.

[The O.C.]

where would you start.  it's a pretty big place!

Aww....but there's only a few big cities to choose from.....

[Flybrian]

How/why do you differentiate between CAnada and Mexico?

With Canada, we share a common language, similar heritage, culture, and (most importantly in this sense) financial state. Mexico has historically been wrought with ill-suited leadership, shaky fiscal policies, and a generally unstable government.

Of course, there is the cultural/language disparity, but that would be simple to bridge if Mexico were on equal political footing with us.

[CARBIZ]

Ford opened its first factory in Windsor in 1908..................

The first American car factory to open in Japan was...........................?

GM sold nearly a half million vehicles in Canada in 2005................

GM sold nearly, what 20,000 vehicles in Japan?....does anybody know?

Does BMW or Audi build any vehicles in North America....................?

At least with the Germans there is some parity because GM and Ford sell a lot of vehicles in Germany; it is, after all, a free market.

This topic has wobbled like a drunken sailor.

It is a free world. Buy what you want. I, for one, will only buy what GM, or Ford have to offer. EVER. (I'm still debating about DCX).

I studied Japanese trade practices in University. What they did to the American electronics industry and what they tried to do to the tool & dye business is shameful. Canada and the U.S. have been friends for 165 years. We share the same culture, language and business ethics (for better or worse.)

As the future unfolds, it will be the foundation of intellectual property (patents) and the ownership of IDEAS that is going to determine which culture controls the future. I think Japan Inc has figured this out. Too bad Washington hasn't (or Ottawa, for that matter!)

[evok]

  The first American car factory to open in Japan was...........................?

1926 - GM Japan Ltd. is established in Kobe, Japan. The following year, GM opens a new assembly plant about twenty miles away in Osaka.

A little thing called WWII got in the way in both Japan and Germany for both Ford and GM.

And BTW your opinion is very naive. Your University teachers on the subject should not be teaching.

1) The Japanese do not want US branded cars or the type of car US brands offer.

2) The Japanese also do not want European brand or the type of cars the Europeans offer. (Exception for the Lux vehicles.)

3) The only people to blame for the implosion of the US OEMs over the past 33 years since the first oil embargo is the management of the US OEMs.

Heck instead of Hank "The Duece" Ford crying to Nixon about installing air bags in vehicles in the 1970s and subsequently Nixon caving into auto management, the US OEMs would have had the lead and forced the Japanese to go back to the drawing board because their vehicles would not be legal.

But the US OEMS cried and that is another incident that they could have used to their advantage.

Plain and simple - the US manufacturers screwed themselves and today they are still paying for those blunders.

I will not loose sleep over that.

I grew up and educated myself. Last time I blamed the Japanese for the US auto problems I was still a teenager.

Edited June 29, 2006 by evok

[ZL-1]

For a couple pennies more I would get the Mini over both.  BUt that this is just me.

It isn't just you.

I was thinking Opel Corsa or a lightly used Astra but ended up with the Mini: it is just so much fun to drive!!!

[regfootball]

How/why do you differentiate between CAnada and Mexico?

mutual respect

a lot less immigrants

hockey

white

Shania, Avril, Celine, Al-ANUS, Glass Tiger, Bryan Adams

white

Edited June 29, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

I'll admit the X3 is not my favorite BMW.....but if I could afford both cars, I'd take an X3 ANY day over a Fusion.

I'll estimate that you haven't driven an X3....or really even sat in too many of them.  Yes, interior materials leave something to be desired compared to most other BMWs, but the little SUV reaks of "BMW" when you drive it.  It handles like a sport sedan and has that super-smooth BMW inline 6.

C&D road test......0-60 in 7.4secs with the 3.0L and 6-speed manual.  0.88g (!) on the skidpad with the sport package.

It may be ugly, but it's a rockin' little SUV.

x3 = Cheap ass interior (yes i've sat in it), ungraceful styling, and BIG TIME POSEUR image. I haven't driven one but at least 3 mag reviews I've read call the suspension much too harsh. The x3 is possibly the biggest poseur vehicle on the planet.

[CARBIZ]

Evok - why don't you do some reading and then get back to me.

Toys R Us - railroaded at every turn.

Houdaille in Texas had their legal team's visas cancelled by MITI

Toshiba, Sanyo, etc. receiving sugar beet import quotas to offset their losses in North America.

You are only talking about the auto industry, specifically. I am talking about Japanese trade practices in general.

Why is it that a Japanese company can set up here and be a wholly owned subsidiary of Tokyo, yet when an American company tries to set up shop in Japan they have to form a "partnership?" I am intrigued, aren't you?

As I've said, buy what you want. I don't feel I should have to apologise for supporting American and Canadian companies. Whenever possible, I will buy what is made here, even though when it comes to textiles, electronics and other manufactured goods it is getting harder and harder to come by.

[LTB51]

Doc fees of $150?  You are high.  EVERY dealer (at least in southern Ontario) charges between $3-500 in hidden crap:  PPSA, admin, registration, PDI (the Japs love that one) and all of it is taxable.  Ever see the Hyundai ads in Toronto for $169 and ZERO down?  They want $2,000 on delivery.  I stand by my numbers. 

I have been involved with the purchase of 2 acuras, 1 honda, and 1 Dodge over the past 4 years. All were from the same dealer network. All wanted 350 for doc.... it was 150 for the car I bought from the dealer network before they raised it to 350, and they claimed the extra cost was for some window etching scam. Let's say that the only car on which it was paid was the Dodge (and that was because my parents don't like to argue!). On the other cars it was only $150. (I wanted to tell the dealership that I would pay their $350, but only if they paid my doc fee, which, incidentally, is $500. But I figured that was too saucy.)

I can't speak to the other fees, except to say that besides AC and tire and the doc fees mentioned, there were no fees. Delivery + PDI is a bit of a scam, but it is as posted on the Honda/Acura/Dodge site. GM charges roughly the same amount, and it was included in all the prices we were discussing.

The Accord that my gf leased required no damage deposit and only the first month's payment (which I don't consider a fee.... it is the first month's payment).

I'm not sure why you get to make up random fees to suit your purposes. I can only assume that it wouldn't be needed if the Cobalt had a legitimate advantage.

The Honda website states that "certain fees" may not be included and at the ver least the $784 they list is TAXABLE, so that alone becomes $901.

  NO MISINFORMATION.  YOU CAN'T READ.

I've had to put up with all your misinformation, and then you crticize my reading skills? Let me help YOU out, because I see that you are only reading what suits you.

In the civic I put together on the website there is 749 due at signing. Monthly payment is 325. Click on the "Amount Due at Signing" link and you get:

"Most lease agreements require a first monthly payment on delivery of the vehicle. A refundable security deposit and other miscellaneous fees. "

So the 749 includes 325 for the first payment and likely the same amount for a security deposit (at least that is what I did for the last GM I leased!).

They don't state that "certain fees may not be included", in fact, they have over-stated the fees. I blame Honda for putting so much information on their website. They should include virtually no information like the GM website.

If you still don't believe the website, then believe me when I say that my GF didn't have to pay those fees either (though I was expecting something).

  DX-G DOES NOT HAVE FOLDING MIRRORS OR SPLIT FOLDING REAR SEAT.

I NEVER CLAIMED IT HAD A FOLDING REAR SEAT. I SAID THAT THAT WAS A NICE FEATURE. I HAD IT ON MY PREVIOUS CAR AND NOT MY CURRENT, AND I MISS IT.

IT DOES HAVE "Retractable Door Mirrors". Are they not what you are discussing?

http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/Models/Civ.../2006/Specs?L=E

  I picked the DX-G, not the LX because that is what they sell.  Just like our LT is popular.  I only picked leather, etc. on the Cobalt just to show how much MORE equipment you can get for $50 a month less.

As I have shown your numbers are not accurate. The LT you quoted would be roughly the same price as the LX.

  30% less fuel economy?  DO YOU DRIVE LIKE MY GREAT AUNT?  Press both of these cars to the floor and the real world numbers will be much closer than you think...flatter torque curve...more usable torque...why do I bother????

I used the real-world numbers I quoted from the web site in my original post. Again, torque will not affect fuel economy the way you claim. I will remind you once again that, unlike your customers, I know what a 5SPD is, and I know what peak torque is, and I know what a self-serving theory is VS real numbers. And in spite of all that, even I don't know why you still bother repeating that lie.

  A 6 yr/120k GMPP warranty with zero deductible is probably around $2k.  As I said, I am at home now, but the dealers make a lot of money off the warranty so the price spread probably is pretty big.

That shorter warranty is over 2.5 times the cost as for a civic for a 7yr 160K warranty ($25 deductable mind you) with road side assistance. Heck, a 6yr/130K on an TL is only 1,388. And that is a $45,000 car.

If you want to chalk that up to dealer greed, be my guest. Of course Honda and Toyota must not suffer from greed (yeah right!). My gf was looking at the Malibu until we found out it only had a 3 yr powertrain. What a joke.

It it just another indicator in a long line (CR, JD, recalls, warranty costs, etc.). You can disregard it along with the others. You can pretend that GM is as reliable as Honda. But even GM isn't willing to back it up.

  Anyway, I don't know why I bother.  Import humpers have been drinking the kool aid for far too long.  I can get more from memory at midnight in my underwear than you can come up with all day.....

You were the one making claims, and now we see that all you have is misinformation and contrived situations to back it up.

Let me give you my real world example.... my GF is leasing an Accord LX-G 4cyl, 5MT with a 4yr comprehensive warranty (with option to go to 7yr 160K for $700 at the end of the lease), 0 down for $335+ taxes (that includes all real fees, so no need to bother making any up). Strange that she manages to get it for less money than your relatively base civic example, isn't it? Over 7,302 KM she has averaged 8.58L/100KM (~70% city) (must be the extra torque ).

More HP, more torque, better fuel economy, better acceleration, better warranty, more airbags, better interior, more space, more refined, safer, better resale, center console (the wizards at Honda figured how to do this with an MT, GM's designers should take note), rear vents, telescopic steering, overhead console, etc. (and yes it has a folding rear seat and mirrors).

And you are trying to pretend that the Cobalt you quoted for $304 is such an amazing deal?

GM isn't being realstic with their situation, and it appears that neither are you. At least I understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But again, don't think you are doing the consumer any favours when you misrepresent reality this way.

[haypops]

1) The Japanese do not want US branded cars or the type of car US brands offer.

I think it's even more than that. Japanese consumers are very brand loyal. If a suzuki coustomer wouldn't buy a Toyota or a Nissan, how can we expect them to switch to chevy.

For those that were so offended by my question of why they so prefer Canadians to Mexicans please consider this. Mexican have been buying Americans cars for many years. They deserve some consideration. Also there is the language thing. They speak spanish as do many Americans while the Canadians play hockey and speak French.

note: I know French is only spoken in one province but the general tone of ignorance and rudeness is wearing a little thin.

[evok]

Evok - why don't you do some reading and then get back to me.

You are debating with the wrong person. Don't dillude yourself my friend.

[Guest buickman]

I'm in Western NY for the holiday and notice that most dealers are open Sunday, Mon, and Tues the 4th. A friend tells me that Dorschel in Henrietta, an old time Buick store, has delivered 200 plus Toyotas the past couple months and only 30 Buicks. The strength of GM was always the dealer body. Alienating them has proven to be the single biggest disaster made by GM management. Of course the spin masters will blame everything else under the sun.

Buickman

[Satty]

Alienating them has proven to be the single biggest disaster made by GM management. Of course the spin masters will blame everything else under the sun.

Or just Wagoner.

[Guest buickman]

The question now is what does GM do after this program ends? If it is continued, credibility tanks. In it's place, what can be done for an encore? The market will dry up like the Sahara for GM sales without some form of incentive. Value pricing hasn't worked (it's really nothing but a deceptive way to cut dealer margin), Red Tag Sales are meaningless as is March Madness. My guess is another GMS to everyone which will totally destroy dealer profits and lead to another record loss for the year at GM, along with further brand erosion. GM does manufacture decent product, the trouble is they are without question the industry leader when it comes to marketing ineptitude. Many have questioned Return to Greatness, but contained within are a series of steps which will reverse negative perceptions and reestablish leadership.

Buickman

[91z4me]

Jim if you want anyone on this board to have ANY respect for you then you need to address O.C.'s reply to your 1st 20 points. Otherwise you will just be a troll in our eyes and sooner or later a banning will occur, just like it did on CZ28.

[Guest buickman]

Jim if you want anyone on this board to have ANY respect for you then you need to address O.C.'s reply to your 1st 20 points.  Otherwise you will just be a troll in our eyes and sooner or later a banning will occur, just like it did on CZ28.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, I'll respond even though The Plan speaks for itself.

First of all the major challenge GM faces is unquestionable how to sell more automobiles. Products and costs have been addressed to no avail, sales still slip and share keeps dropping.

The step of eliminating destination charges is not simply a price reduction. It would replace another program of equal or greater value that would be allowed to expire. Value pricing tried to do the same thing but hasn't built the goodwill that this step would.

Doing away with mid year increases would avoid the mess we got into with overinflated stickers. It would also show commitment and leadership, both of which are in short supply at GM, if not non existent.

Quarterly incentive changes further establish credibility and give a rational sense of order to the business allowing dealers to properly manage inventory, personnel, advertising, etc... Customers wouldn't worry about losing out or be upset when the deal changes if everyone knew the score.

Bringing award winners to Detroit would greatly reduce expenses and be far preferred to Gerosa's recent rescinding of trips earned by top dealers. He sent a letter telling winners GM couldn't afford to give them the trips they had worked all year to earn, then he announced his retirement. Pete really showed his lack of class with that move.

Coming to Motown would build team unity and increase the excitement for GM and our hometown. How much greater the focus on issues at hand here in Michigan as opposed to some far away desert locale?

Home deliveries are growing in popularity nationwide as customers today are more knowledgeable due to the internet. Saving them time by offering this service would again add to our position of leader and show our compassion for the customers.

Today, GM's incentives are so complex it takes longer to figure a deal than it does to sell a car. The simplicity of Zero adds to it's effectiveness. Remember to KISS.

Offering a rebate to non GM owners while not giving the same to our owners only alienates those who we should value most highly. Returning to the fall annual model change again makes us the leader. If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes. Let's not be afraid to take the lead and set the tone. We could also then coordinate our marketing budgets and see far more effective impact in the marketplace.

As to increasing dealer margin, the way for that to happen is for our share to increase. Let's get our dealers back on the same page and watch the results when we act in unison. Let the dealers figure out what to do with the extra juice, they know their business and how best to serve customers in their market. The factory should step back and let the dealers do their job.

Putting VSSM personnel on the street would give a face to an impersonal corporation. The input received from listening to customers would prove invaluable and give our people some sort of common sense which hopefully would serve to counteract some of the nonsensical programs implemented without any idea of the negative impact.

AARP has millions of members nationwide who are a fantastic demographic with large discretionary incomes. OC's criticism of each step individually fails to grasp the potential from the combination of these steps. Remember this is marketing, not production or management of exchange rate fluctuations.

Word of mouth is, and always has been, the single most powerful and effective form of marketing, and also is by far the least expensive. Training our salespeople in the most professional techniques would move us above the competition and most likely lead to retention of the top achievers in the industry, the desparately need.

For further clarification, simply reread The Plan - Five Points, or as commonly referred to...Return to Greatness.

Buickman

[The O.C.]

OK, I'll respond even though The Plan speaks for itself.

First of all the major challenge GM faces is unquestionable how to sell more automobiles. Products and costs have been addressed to no avail, sales still slip and share keeps dropping.

The step of eliminating destination charges is not simply a price reduction. It would replace another program of equal or greater value that would be allowed to expire. Value pricing tried to do the same thing but hasn't built the goodwill that this step would.

Doing away with mid year increases would avoid the mess we got into with overinflated stickers. It would also show commitment and leadership, both of which are in short supply at GM, if not non existent.

Quarterly incentive changes further establish credibility and give a rational sense of order to the business allowing dealers to properly manage inventory, personnel, advertising, etc... Customers wouldn't worry about losing out or be upset when the deal changes if everyone knew the score.

Bringing award winners to Detroit would greatly reduce expenses and be far preferred to Gerosa's recent rescinding of trips earned by top dealers. He sent a letter telling winners GM couldn't afford to give them the trips they had worked all year to earn, then he announced his retirement. Pete really showed his lack of class with that move.

Coming to Motown would build team unity and increase the excitement for GM and our hometown. How much greater the focus on issues at hand here in Michigan as opposed to some far away desert locale?

Home deliveries are growing in popularity nationwide as customers today are more knowledgeable due to the internet. Saving them time by offering this service would again add to our position of leader and show our compassion for the customers.

Today, GM's incentives are so complex it takes longer to figure a deal than it does to sell a car. The simplicity of Zero adds to it's effectiveness. Remember to KISS.

Offering a rebate to non GM owners while not giving the same to our owners only alienates those who we should value most highly. Returning to the fall annual model change again makes us the leader. If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes. Let's not be afraid to take the lead and set the tone. We could also then coordinate our marketing budgets and see far more effective impact in the marketplace.

As to increasing dealer margin, the way for that to happen is for our share to increase. Let's get our dealers back on the same page and watch the results when we act in unison. Let the dealers figure out what to do with the extra juice, they know their business and how best to serve customers in their market. The factory should step back and let the dealers do their job.

Putting VSSM personnel on the street would give a face to an impersonal corporation. The input received from listening to customers would prove invaluable and give our people some sort of common sense which hopefully would serve to counteract some of the nonsensical programs implemented without any idea of the negative impact.

AARP has millions of members nationwide who are a fantastic demographic with large discretionary incomes. OC's criticism of each step individually fails to grasp the potential from the combination of these steps. Remember this is marketing, not production or management of exchange rate fluctuations.

Word of mouth is, and always has been, the single most powerful and effective form of marketing, and also is by far the least expensive. Training our salespeople in the most professional techniques would move us above the competition and most likely lead to retention of the top achievers in the industry, the desparately need.

For further clarification, simply reread The Plan - Five Points, or as commonly referred to...Return to Greatness.

Buickman

Uh.....as I said in the other post in The Lounge, you fail to directly address MY criticisms of your 20 points.

All you do is reiterate the arguments you've ALREADY made in your points.

Why don't you copy and paste MY rebuttals to each of your points....then make your OWN rebuttal to MY criticisms.....

mmmmmkay?

[Guest buickman]

Basically the issue remains that we simply disagree on whether or not The Plan as outlined would be effective. At this juncture, further discussion is redundant. I claim it will work, you feel otherwise. You have extensive experience as do I. I led the country 6 times in sales, turned around a number of dealers and successfully advised others. I've been nominated to the Board by individuals who have heard me speak in Wilmington and have received support from a wide cross section of industry participants and followers. My record speaks for itself. You are more than entitled to your opinions, however I respectfully think you are in error regarding the potential of Return to Greatness. I appreciate your criticisms and am thankful for the time you have spent in presenting your side of the situation.

Buickman

[CaddyXLR-V]

Where in your plan does it show how to turn a Toyota buyer, into a GM buyer? None of your points will do that. It's all about the product, and how much it costs to make that product. Toyota can do anything GM can do, but cheaper. Your plan wont change that.

[Guest buickman]

Where in your plan does it show how to turn a Toyota buyer, into a GM buyer? None of your points will do that. It's all about the product, and how much it costs to make that product. Toyota can do anything GM can do, but cheaper. Your plan wont change that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Toyota has the perception of superiority. Return to Greatness usurps that perception and brings leadership back to Detroit where it belongs.

Buickman

[evok]

Basically the issue remains that we simply disagree on whether or not The Plan as outlined would be effective. At this juncture, further discussion is redundant. I claim it will work, you feel otherwise. You have extensive experience as do I. I led the country 6 times in sales, turned around a number of dealers and successfully advised others. I've been nominated to the Board by individuals who have heard me speak in Wilmington and have received support from a wide cross section of industry participants and followers. My record speaks for itself. You are more than entitled to your opinions, however I respectfully think you are in error regarding the potential of Return to Greatness. I appreciate your criticisms and am thankful for the time you have spent in presenting your side of the situation.

Buickman

You do not elaborate as to why it will work, you only state that it will.

You show no material or data in support of your plan.

The O.C. and others have shown good arguments why your plan will not work. You have not shown to me or him a good rebuttal argument why he is wrong.

In business you must support an agenda with facts as to why a proposal "should" work.

That is why you fail at this game.

[Guest buickman]

You do not elaborate as to why it will work, you only state that it will.

You show no material or data in support of your plan.

The O.C. and others have shown good arguments why your plan will not work.  You have not shown to me or him a good rebuttal argument why he is wrong.

In business you must support an agenda with facts as to why a proposal "should" work.

That is why you fail at this game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I beg to differ, perhaps you don't comprehend.

Buickman

[evok]

I beg to differ, perhaps you don't comprehend.

Buickman

Comprehend what exactly?

You have 20 unsupported opinions as your Plan.

You can not rebutt the OC because you do not have a plan supported by fact and data.

Your only argument is your opinion. And that lacks credibility when it is not backed by hard evidence.

Sorry but that is the way things work in the real world.

[Guest buickman]

Comprehend what exactly?

You have 20 unsupported opinions as your Plan.

You can not rebutt the OC because you do not have a plan supported by fact and data.

Your only argument is your opinion.  And that lacks credibility when it is not backed by hard evidence.

Sorry but that is the way things work in the real world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did rebut him, you just can't seem to appreciate the fact that marketing and sales are my area of expertise. Again I will say that I have received literally hundreds of emails from across America in support of Return to Greatness. Over 3500 individuals receive GeneralWatch newsletters and roughly 400 unique visitors per day come to the site. Quite a following for someone who, in your opinion, is so off base. Do you suppose that they are all wrong and you couple fellas know it all? Please understand that perception actually becomes reality in the marketplace. Changing that perception isn't an exact science. It's a matter of image. I've had inordinate success in this field and am on a mission to bring that success to GM. Of course like anyone I'd like to be compensated when it works, but am willing to fully disclose the rest of The Plan to GM upon their agreement to implement. Doesn't this sound preferrable to taking on a French/Japanese partner? If I'm so crazy, why is my income last month in the auto business well over $10K per week? Obviously some people are experiencing the benefit of listening to yours truly.

Buickman

Edited July 4, 2006 by buickman

[evok]

I did rebut him, you just can't seem to appreciate the fact that marketing and sales are my area of expertise. Again I will say that I have received literally hundreds of emails from across America in support of Return to Greatness. Do you suppose that they are all wrong and you couple fellas know it all?

Buickman

Well yes and us couple of fellas that have repeatedly shown you to be wrong have years of direct experience with OEMs and other aspects of this business in many capacities.

And no, you have never used an argument that has been more persuasive that what the OC has used to show your plan will not Return GM to Greatness.

Your 100s of letters of support are more than likely people that do not understand the business.

Even Santa Clause gets letters and wish lists!

[Guest buickman]

Well yes and us couple of fellas that have repeatedly shown you to be wrong have years of direct experience with OEMs and other aspects of this business in many capacities.

And no, you have never used an argument that has been more persuasive that what the OC has used to show your plan will not Return GM to Greatness.

Your 100s of letters of support are more than likely people that do not understand the business.

Even Santa Clause gets letters and wish lists!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mega dealers, heads of University business departments, major auto journalists, and high ranking GM salary retirees, etc... Guess again, Banzai!

Buickman

[CaddyXLR-V]

I did rebut him, you just can't seem to appreciate the fact that marketing and sales are my area of expertise. Again I will say that I have received literally hundreds of emails from across America in support of Return to Greatness. Do you suppose that they are all wrong and you couple fellas know it all?

Buickman

Why is it that, anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong? Don't try to put us down because we can see right through your plan, just like GM's management did.

And you are crossing out of your area of expertise, every time you call out GM's management. You may know how to sell Buicks in MI, but you do not know how to run a multi-national, multi-billion dollar corporation, which you prove everytime you post here.

You've come to the wrong place if your looking to find support for your plan. Everyone here knows it's all about the product, and it always will be.

[Guest buickman]

Why is it that, anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong? Don't try to put us down because we can see right through your plan, just like GM's management did.

And you are crossing out of your area of expertise, every time you call out GM's management. You may know how to sell Buicks in MI, but you do not know how to run a multi-national, multi-billion dollar corporation, which you prove everytime you post here.

You've come to the wrong place if your looking to find support for your plan. Everyone here knows it's all about the product, and it always will be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, actually I'm looking for exactly what I'm getting...constructive criticism. My hat is off to you for making The Plan stronger by attempting to point out weaknesses and flaws. For that I am most grateful. Some of my best writings have come in response to your arguments. In fact, realize it or not, you have actually been of tremendous benefit to the cause. Also, please consider that I've never claimed to be able to run any multi national. My claim to fame is merchandising. I know how to sell cars, something no one at the top of GM has any clue about, neither does LaNeve, Dewar, Peper, or any of that bunch. Nice guys, just no clue what to do. The proof is in the pudding. Year after year we hear claims of "Just wait til the new products hit" You may continue to believe the empty promises, I don't. Granted the products are key but without effective presentation and marketing, they fail.

Please don't take offense, no put down was intended. If you will, please continue to cut me up, if it doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger.

Buickman

Edited July 4, 2006 by buickman

[Drew Dowdell]

Buickman, you may know how to sell cars. Hell you might even be the best car sales man that ever lived....

but you don't know about the rest of the process of designing and building them.

A great commercial and a crack sales team means nothing if the product isn't there.

[evok]

Mega dealers, heads of University business departments, major auto journalists, and high ranking GM salary retirees, etc... Guess again, Banzai!

Buickman

Than I will claim that those you just listed "without reading their letter" do not know what they are talking about.

Just as you are wrong - the feedback you are receiving is also wrong and should not be trusted.

PS And most University professors and auto journalist would have trouble getting jobs in their respective fields they cover anyway.

Becareful who's opinon you trust.

[Guest buickman]

Buickman, you may know how to sell cars. Hell you might even be the best car sales man that ever lived....

but you don't know about the rest of the process of designing and building them.

A great commercial and a crack sales team means nothing if the product isn't there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. My desire to is to assist in the area I'm familar with. GM has thousands of talented individuals who possess knowledge I will never obtain, nor lay claim to. The success of GM depends on the cooperation and teamwork of many. No single person will make the thing fly, not Carlos, not Rick, no one. Each must excel in their area and work together in order to rise above the worthy competition in today's environment.

Buickman

[Guest buickman]

Than I will claim that those you just listed "without reading their letter" do not know what they are talking about.

Just as you are wrong - the feedback you are receiving is also wrong and should not be trusted.

PS And most University professors and auto journalist would have trouble getting jobs in their respective fields they cover anyway.

Becareful who's opinon you trust.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and I will claim you don't know what you're talking about. There, we're even.

[evok]

...and I will claim you don't know what you're talking about. There, we're even.

There is a difference - I actually took the time and showed large problems with your plan much like the OC did and why it would not return GM anything.

I am not the only one on the various boards that have done just that.

You have never shown anyone why we are wrong.

The only rebuttal you have is a childish argument that "I am right."

That only goes to show the boards that your plan does not have legs to stand on.

Apparently GM agrees with me and other on your plan.

Hell it had been out in the open for a year now - and NO MANUFACTURER HAS USED IT.

That says it all right there.

[Drew Dowdell]

...and I will claim you don't know what you're talking about. There, we're even.

BM, I'm sure you sold a lot of LeSabres in your day, but imagine how many more you could have sold with a more competative engine and higher quality <and better designed> interior.

GM is heading in the right direction. They are making much better cars and doing so at higher profits. GM's goal should be to make your job as easy as possible. With the new product that is here <CTS, Kappa, Lucerne, GMT-900 SUVS> and coming < NG CTS, Lambdas, GMT-900 trucks> being on par or above the competition, if you lose a sale, that is on you.

[haypops]

I know how to sell cars, something no one at the top of GM has any clue about, neither does LaNeve, Dewar, Peper, or any of that bunch. Nice guys, just no clue what to do.

Nice guys? You have many times said that Wagoneer is purposely running GM into the ground for the benefit of the Rothchields. If "LaNerve, Dewar, Pepper and any of that bunch" know this and don't act how are they nice guys? Perhaps they don't know of this secret cabal between Wagoneer and the Jews but you do!!!!

[Guest buickman]

BM, I'm sure you sold a lot of LeSabres in your day, but imagine how many more you could have sold with a more competative engine and higher quality <and better designed> interior.

GM is heading in the right direction. They are making much better cars and doing so at higher profits. GM's goal should be to make your job as easy as possible. With the new product that is here <CTS, Kappa, Lucerne, GMT-900 SUVS> and coming < NG CTS, Lambdas, GMT-900 trucks> being on par or above the competition, if you lose a sale, that is on you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right again. The Lucerne is catching on and it's great to have somewhat of a self-seller. I truly wish GM had been cranking out the hits. It's my livelihood and the means by which I support my family. Outstanding products would be wonderful and make my job so much easier. Given what we've had to work with, I've had to institute the most cost effective and productive marketing. Fortunately, it has worked to a fairly substantial degree.

Hopping in my new Tahoe (very nice) to head back to MI from NY. Catch all you wonderful enthusiasts later. Happy Independence Day! Let's all hope GM can stay that way, independent!

Buickman

Edited July 4, 2006 by buickman

[Northstar]

I think I need to say something in this thread: You can't sell a product to someone if no one comes into the showroom to buy it.

Cars such as the Solstice, HHR, Sky, and Corvette draw people in to the showroom because they're great products that attract attention, and they're all knockout hits. Cars such as the LaCrosse, Malibu, and Cobalt are not all knockout hits because they aren't the greatest products, and don't attract people to the showroom.

The product should be so good that the cars sell themselves, which is the case with the Kappas, HHR, and Vette. GM and the dealers shouldn't have to make deals on cars to sell them as they do with most. If the products sell themselves, there's no reason to need "The Plan."

[evok]

Agreed. My desire to is to assist in the area I'm familar with. GM has thousands of talented individuals who possess knowledge I will never obtain, nor lay claim to. The success of GM depends on the cooperation and teamwork of many. No single person will make the thing fly, not Carlos, not Rick, no one. Each must excel in their area and work together in order to rise above the worthy competition in today's environment.

Buickman

Yes - But who is running around and ranting "I have the Plan, that will Return GM to Greatness."

[Guest buickman]

Yes - But who is running around and ranting "I have the Plan, that will Return GM to Greatness."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That be me, got to go bro, til tomorrow...

[haypops]

If I'm so crazy, why is my income last month in the auto business well over $10K per week? Obviously some people are experiencing the benefit of listening to yours truly.

Buickman

If you make 10K a month in the auto industry why are you running out and getting a real estate license and selling cheap 100K houses?

Perhaps you are reality deprived!!

[evok]

That be me, got to go bro, til tomorrow...

"No single person will make the thing fly, not Carlos, not Rick, no one."

And not the Plan.

[evok]

If you make 10K a month in the auto industry why are you running out and getting a real estate license and selling cheap 100K houses?

Perhaps you are reality deprived!!

LOL - Maybe the rain will let up so I can step away from this madness.

[evok]

I think I need to say something in this thread: You can't sell a product to someone if no one comes into the showroom to buy it.

Cars such as the Solstice, HHR, Sky, and Corvette draw people in to the showroom because they're great products that attract attention, and they're all knockout hits. Cars such as the LaCrosse, Malibu, and Cobalt are not all knockout hits because they aren't the greatest products, and don't attract people to the showroom.

The product should be so good that the cars sell themselves, which is the case with the Kappas, HHR, and Vette. GM and the dealers shouldn't have to make deals on cars to sell them as they do with most. If the products sell themselves, there's no reason to need "The Plan."

You know I agree. If GM can ever get it out then and only then will GMs problems begin to fix themselves.

Problem is walking into a GM dealership is a lot like walking into Wal-Mart for Levi jeans.

They really are not real Levi jeans, but for an everyday low price...what the heck.

[Mr.Krinkle]

gotta love that specious reasoning. im a salesman and im selling what you need because i have it.

didnt you throw a can of motor oil on my carpet and try to clean it?

[BigPontiac]

I did rebut him, you just can't seem to appreciate the fact that marketing and sales are my area of expertise. Again I will say that I have received literally hundreds of emails from across America in support of Return to Greatness. Over 3500 individuals receive GeneralWatch newsletters and roughly 400 unique visitors per day come to the site. Quite a following for someone who, in your opinion, is so off base. Do you suppose that they are all wrong and you couple fellas know it all? Please understand that perception actually becomes reality in the marketplace. Changing that perception isn't an exact science. It's a matter of image. I've had inordinate success in this field and am on a mission to bring that success to GM. Of course like anyone I'd like to be compensated when it works, but am willing to fully disclose the rest of The Plan to GM upon their agreement to implement. Doesn't this sound preferrable to taking on a French/Japanese partner? If I'm so crazy, why is my income last month in the auto business well over $10K per week? Obviously some people are experiencing the benefit of listening to yours truly.

Buickman

Generalwatch.com isn't setting cookies to track site visitors, so how exactly do conclude that you have 400 unique daily site visitors? Trolling through the http-server log gives a total activity count, but not unique visitors.

P.S. - that Flint hosting company you're using should really have upgraded you off of Win2000 to Win2003...

[BigPontiac]

Basically the issue remains that we simply disagree on whether or not The Plan as outlined would be effective. At this juncture, further discussion is redundant. I claim it will work, you feel otherwise. You have extensive experience as do I. I led the country 6 times in sales, turned around a number of dealers and successfully advised others. I've been nominated to the Board by individuals who have heard me speak in Wilmington and have received support from a wide cross section of industry participants and followers. My record speaks for itself. You are more than entitled to your opinions, however I respectfully think you are in error regarding the potential of Return to Greatness. I appreciate your criticisms and am thankful for the time you have spent in presenting your side of the situation.

Buickman

Why not treat "The Plan" like a start-up business looking for angel funding? You have a methodology which you're trying to sell. In a post-dot-com world, in order to get funding you need a prototype to prove the concept.

Taking into account that the most common criticism of "The Plan" is the location where you developed the "methodology", why not partner with a PBC dealer on either the East or West Coast and document step-by-step how "The Plan" can have an effect? Applying your methodology in a market which is on GM's radar as a market they want to grow in should capture their attention if you can truly do what you believe you can. Forensic audit of the dealership's books beforehand, followed by careful document and progress reports in an import dominated market would certainly validate which aspects of "The Plan" work and which don't. Do what you want Wagner to do, set a target and either hit it, exceed it, or fail and then resign.

Thoughts?