Leaderboard

Going to state this again, because I believe the narrative should be set straight. People LOVE to postulate that GM is losing money on everything. This 'under $80K = loss' theory is conjecture based on the fact that GM originally targeted the price of the C8 to be $80K. Who in their right mind would think GM would intentionally set a price to make no profit on a Corvette? Think about it. Now, while it's possible that GM loses money at $60K, we don't know that for sure and we have no idea, if so, the dollar amount per car.

you wouldn't believe the Murano lease deals around here recently. A Murano S almost the cheapest lease lately. If you're buying of course its a different story. Nice review writeup on the Sentra, Robert. I think the 2020 or is it 2021 Sentra is a nice improvement. THis current version is not bad but i would definitely wait for the new version of Sentra over both the Versa and current Sentra. It would be one of those deals where depending on lease incentives a current month the new Sentra and now current Altima could be darn close to each other OTD payment wise. The Altima with AWD i think opens up a new market for Nissan to keep sales of sedans going in its showrooms..... The Kicks is a nice ride also, but I want to see what the new Trailblazer looks like before anything in that segment now. I still would spend money in a Nissan before a Hyundai or Toyota I think myself.

• Of course you would. • Turbos aren't a high dollar advancement. My son's Sonic has a turbo, in fact all 3 Chevys here are turbocharged. Chevy's been building turbocharged vehicles since 1962. • How the hell could they lose money at $90K?? Are they stuffing $50K in the glovebox?

"B-but a Motor Trend article said a senior GM employee said they originally wanted the Corvette to start at $80K, so anything under that has to mean they're losing money."

NSX is less advanced than the C8; it might only cost $45K to build. MSRP is $157K. Even with the $20K off a '19, they have to be raking it in on the NSX, even at 2018's 170 units sold.

Again, your wrong on Cadillac. I consider it a top status brand and much better than the plastic crap the brand you think is best MB. Plenty of People do not think much of the Lease 99% of the time German brands.I find so much dumped CPO that is at low prices that they ship them out of state because there is so much. I question just how much profit your love fest of MB really has when you see the amount of CHURN that brand has. Small volume high profit can provide much in changing a brand to the next future way of doing business. Mary clearly is seeing a different world view than you see.

Tesla outsells Mercedes in the electrics vehicles department. And THAT is what counts in this topic in this thread. Tesla has better tech than Mercedes. Tesla has better public perception in EVs than Mercedes. Tesla even has MORE profits than Mercedes in EVs... And THAT is saying something, isnt it???!!! And as you put it and if Mercedes does not have what it takes to compete with Tesla, or even Cadillac in the EVs department...no matter when that change happens...that it ABSOLUTELY matters because as you put it...eventually everything will be electric...and if Mercedes fails...and Porsche...than Mercedes and Porsche will join Oldsmobile...and THAT is the bottom line. You could laugh at that...but GM is already selling a BEV. GM already has experienced what real world problems that BEVs face... GM has already learned what to do and what NOT to do with BEVs in the market place. That is a leg up on Mercedes, isnt it? GM has already learned how to compete DIRECTLY with Tesla. Albeit with a product that does not compete with the Model 3, it does as an EV sharing somewhat the same price point... Mercedes is not only behind Tesla, Mercedes is behind GM too... NOT a good place to be in....

What in the hell does Mercedes total sales versus Tesla have to do with anything? Benz has 19 models to Teslas 3. It damn sure better outsell them. Now show us the number of Mercedes Benz EV sold versus Tesla because it DOES matter, since you are the one bringing up sales numbers yet again, when you think it’s convenient to your goal post moving. And the rate at which the change does matter, just not to you now that you know that Benz is further delaying their EV plans.

Not exactly. IF Cadillac matches at the very least, Tesla in all specs...Cadillac has a fighting chance. Tesla fanbois and EV rabid fanbois, view other EVs, if they dont match Tesla in specs...as COMPLIANCE cars. THAT is the difference. its not all about the Tesla brand. Some of it is also about Tesla technology being what it is. Musk has shown to be a fool. SANE folk dont follow this guy like a God... Tesla fanbois will always buy Tesla...it dont matter what Mercedes or Cadillac do. This is true... But there are Tesla buyers that are NOT fanatics and just want an EV to be at the very least something resembling Tesla specs. Why would a current Tesla owner trade-in his Tesla for a lesser product from Porsh-uh or Mercedes or Audi or Jaguar? He/She WONT! He/She will coninue to buy a Tesla as long as Tesla is on top of that technology. Yes...Mercedes retracted because they KNOW they will fall short in the specs and will take a MAJOR hit in sales BECAUSE of it. They see the Audi and Jaguar sales failures. And its not only about them losing money because of the sales failure...BUT with the public perception of Mercedes FAILING at EVs and that is no bueno for their EV future...like I said...EV fanbois do NOT like EV compliance cars. Maybe they are thinking that that failure might also affect their ICE perception too...who knows??? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Bottom line is this. Tesla has the technology that out-performs the current state of EVs. REAL competiton for Tesla will happen when all others AT LEAST comes close to what specs Tesla has... Another is product. The right product has to be available for sale. The right sized CUV, nicely styled CUV, etc... If the right product IS available for sale, but the specs fall short of Tesla specs, Tesla will continue to dominate. My last sentence is more like a "duh" statement more than anything else.

But I'm hungry NOW dammit. Don't tease me, bro!

Mom went gaga today over a 2020 Versa SR in Monarch Orange, seen at the local Nissan dealership. She also likes the Hyundai Venue SEL in Green Apple. And the Toyota Yaris LE hatch. And the Kia Soul. I think the new Versa looks really good for an entry-level car. Shame they stopped with the hatchback and steered customers to the Kicks. The Kicks is also decent, but, with alloys, it has an MSRP of around $22k. The Versa SV is around $18.9k. When a Venue SEL with Convenience Package is $21.7k, and a Kia Soul S is $21.5k, I'd much rather she have the Kia, as it is a substantially larger, nicer vehicle than the Venue, imo. She has a year to decide, and even then, I am afraid it is going to come down to who has the best lease deal at the time.

Ummmm...NO THEY WONT! Why? Porsche fell very flat on the range part... Only the Porshefiles will buy that the first year and possibly the second year. After that...the Taycan, if Porsche does NOT fix the range part...Tesla will eat its lunch, even with a car that will be approaching a DECADE old...because Tesla has battery packs coming soon that will out perform their old ones... Audi...that EV SUV they got...sold zilch as compared to what Tesla sells as their Model X... and Audi just unlocked some of their battery's capacity JUST to be a tad more competitive in the range department because Tesla is just that much better... https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30199684/porsche-taycan-ev-range/ The Taycan is the LEAST efficient EV... and of course...the Germans never admit fault nor incompetence... But seeing as their sister company Audi also has shyte EV tech...and still only getting 220 miles on their E-Tron...(yeah...battery safety...my ass), it shoudnt surprise us...that VW is nowhere NEAR being on top of the EV world... There is NO cachet for Porsche and Audi in the EV world... And about EV sales... And about that...like I said about Porsche...only the Porschefiles will buy that, but when a Taycan driver comes up to a 1st generation Model S and gets his ass handed to him in range and in speed....yes...the one from 2012, the Taycan driver will no longer be proud of his "Porsh-uh" As for Cadillac, lets see what GM does in the EV world and what Cadillac does with it BEFORE we have an opinion. The Mustang Mach-E is said to rival Tesla in performance and in range. Just like what Porsche said....we will see what the Mach-E will really do. About Cadillac, we do not know what Cadillac has up its sleeve. GM and Cadillac is REALLY REALLY secretive about that. YOU had doubts on what the Vette C8 would do...well the C8 is here and YOU were surprised yet I...told you ONE YEAR PRIOR what the C8 would be alll about... That Mercedes Formula One road car you were proud... The C8 Z06 will be on sale, the Zora hybrid 900 plus HP C8 will be sold, and that M-B Foprmula One thing will still be a pipe dream... The C8 and ALL of its trims will be making everybody drool, including Tesla fanboys, (The Hybrid C8) and YOU will still be waiting on the Mercedes... Mercedes Benz and its EVs... They are being conservative with their announcements, because THEY KNOW they WONT be able to beat Tesla... They saw how Audi and Jaguar has failed in specs and in sales and now Porsche with specs... Mercedes RETRACTED their launch for 2021... I wouldnt be bashing Cadillac if I were you... But...Im not up-selling Cadillac EVs to you... Im being cautious about what Cadillac EV tech is all about. I know one thing, TESLA has EVERYBODY beat... I know another thing though...I also KNOW that Cadillac and GM will NOT drop the ball on their EVs and especially Cadillac's EVs. They KNOW what is at stake. How I know this... I listened to Autoline Detroit After Hours last Thursday and they had Tadge on speaking for the C8... He is own focused GM engineer. The C8 was one focused sports car. I KNOW Cadillac and GM are FOCUSED for EVs... I KNOW these GM/Cadillac EV engineers are gonna hit it!!!

I know what you are saying. And I feel your pain. Im a car guy too after all. And an American car guy on top of that. But...lets be honest about this whole car culture thing. In reality, cars are meant to be driven (hard). Cars are meant to be used and abused until that car can no longer give anymore and it ends up in the scrap heap. We as enthusiasts dont like the term appliance and we as enthusiasts are able to sense which cars are really engineered as appliances and which cars are "special" but in reality, ALL cars are appliances. Even Corvettes and Porsches. And Ferraris. On the opposite spectrum of this. When people buy "non-appliance" cars, such as Ferraris and that 1 of 704 Eldorado Broughams, and store them to be garage queens never to see the road ever is not a good thing either. Like I said, cars are meant to be driven. (Not that you are saying otherwise...) It takes (a lot of) money and/or time to restore these things. Time is money even if you are a mechanic and a machinist... so I could understand why cars like these end up being barn finds... (and Im not saying that you dont understand this either...Im just stating the obvious and just doing my part in communicating and enjoying the conversations we have in here) If I had a second chance at another career choice (I own a very successful hot dog and hamburger restaurant), Id wanna live in the US in one of those sunny and warm States...and Id learn to be a mechanic and machinist and yeah, Id restore old relics like that (on my own time and them sell them at auctions and stuff). But first, to move to the States, Id join the US Air Force and fly around....make Uncle Sam give me my wings, Make Uncle Sam teach me mechanics and machinery, then maybe possibly be a commercial airline pilot and hot rodder...

Umm no they’re not, at this rate. They have already delayed for a year and I suspect maybe longer given the money contraction with the company this year. Not even talking about Porsche because duh, they already have a product out with the Taycan (soon anyway). Funny you talk about folks not paying that for a Cadillac when one hasn’t evens come out though, much less at $150K. Must be nice to make up non-provable hypotheticals. I do know some Porsche buyers that are considering a C8 though so there’s that.

Shock towers are pretty far inboard, relatively speaking.

They don’t build ‘good electrics’ because no one buys them. A half dozen hybrids/ ‘low EVs’ have shown conclusively they don’t care to put any real effort into them, and they lose money on every (pitifully few) sale. Consumers know it. Why buy a copy when they can get the original EV vehicle, right? Not to mention that the skateboard concept was invented by General Motors, so they have that cache in-house toward future Cadillac EVs. Daimler doesn’t.

At my Cadillac dealership, got the CT6 V on display and I have to say, that is one tight engine bay.

1. Define ‘climb over 10 brands’ and also define the 5 of those brands that ‘have to climb over the other 5’... OR explain how they are just fine in whatever hierarchy they’re in. 2. There’s no threat to Cadillac ‘staying in business’ as long as they are stay as highly profitable as they are.

Agreed. About Cadillac not spending billions trying to convert a close minded shopper. Product should be enough to convert. Agreed. Those concepts are great as is. And yes, they should have been built. And it aint too later to still build them as is as those concepts are still great and look relevant in 2020. Agreed. Prices SHOULD climb to reflect "The Standard of the World" but the little XT4 and CT4 stuff has got to go. Cadillac dealerships SHOULD UNDERSTAND that Cadillac is NOT about volume. But about STATUS.

It may or may not. It grew substantially from the previous gen. True true. And fullsized offering also grew only to be downsized again in 1977. I havent studied the numbers, and Im intrigued (yes, Oldsmobile pun intended...) to see what dimensions the 1973-1977 Cutlass is in relation to the 1977-1990 Caprice. yes. And another generation after how they managed to get most of their platforms to FWD. OK...I heard that the W-Body was botched in the launching causing GM to lose money the first few years, but, one has got to admit, the W-Body as a FWD platform was a very good one and all 4 brands had great cars from that platform whether we want to admit it or not. I wasnt targeting you. I was just trying to be funny. But yeah. I wouldnt touch a Sentra or Corolla though. But you seem to rent cars often because, Im guessing, your line of work? Now...I feel kinda bad for putting you on the spot like that.... NOT!!! ? (yes...a corny 1990s expression...forgive me)

there was a camry driver in front/side of me the other day, about that age, weaving all over, driving like badly drunk but likely just they couldn't stay in the lane themselves anymore. I suppose those lane keep assists will help those people. I thought i was going to get hit a few times.

If ya like background instrumental music, this I just happened on and have to say, great work background music.

She is so lovely, way better than Marlyn Monroe!

for a rental I got a Mitsubishi Outlander Sport (RVR in Canada) with about 200 miles on the odo. the target buyer is your weird aunt who always called herself ‘the fun aunt’ when you were 11 because she’s 44 but says she looks 41, unmarried, says words like ‘groovy’ , funky’ and ‘kiddo’ and always takes you to applebees for appy hour for some belated birthdate you had a week and a half ago. the aunt whose name your mom would slowly sigh out after hanging up another phone call where the subjects shifted between dried ovaries, outdated match.com profile photos, gravity’s toll and questioning why that nice boy way back in grade 12 never called again, while your dad sat at the kitchen table staring stone faced at the newspaper knowing if he made one smart remark, he’d be hit with it. she was on a tuesday evening date with a divorced 47-year old beergut named richie who drives the shuttle for an automall, and the sales manager at the mitsu dealer promised richie a $100 gift card to montana’s for each successful referral. your aunt jumped at the chance for a second date to ride richie’s short bus around the dealerships all day. unfortunately, richie interpreted ‘ride richie’s short bus’ incorrectly on the second date, so your aunt was promptly dropped off in front of a shiny Mitsubishi Outlander Sport. she loved how ‘it looks like a little truck’ and couldn’t believe the giant sunroof. a sales rep upon seeing an actual person on the lot, thought she was lost opening the door, the old navy yoga pants on aunt’s diminishing derrière slid onto the cheap, plasticky leather seating, her chunky jewelry-laden hands running along hard, hollow, textured plastics, leaving fingerprints on the sparse piano black plastic accents. ‘ooooh i can fit all my girlfriends in this for a road trip’ exclaimed your aunt to the sales rep, who silently doubted the plural in girlfriends as he looked at the decent interior space that welcomed nobody. as if by magic, the radio is tuned to 95.9 SPLASH FM, ‘WITH TRIX AND THE CHIX,‘ and shania is belting out on speakers tinnier than the discman headphones you had when she was popular. unable to see over the exaggerated hood and rear quarter panels, your aunt doesn’t care because the outlander allegedly has four wheel drive, so even snow won’t stop her from safely getting to her administrative job at the caster wheel wholesaler. in just a few short hours, the young finance guy who politely yet deftly ignored any ‘is there a missus todd?’ questions has put your aunt in the outlander for 72 months at just a little over $100 a week. now your aunt has plenty of hatchback to put bumper stickers like ‘I got crabs in Maryland’ and ‘Caution: Blonde Driving,’ and you’ll appreciate the last one because the mitsu’s handling isn’t good and feels disconnected from the road. the cvt makes the engine seem lazy, devoid of pep and drive. like your aunt, the mitsubishi outlander sport just... exists. it pleases no one even if it’s trying and it makes you feel bad.

Mercedes outsells Tesla now. Whether it is gas or electric doesn't really matter. Eventually everything will be electric, the rate at which the change happens isn't that important, what matters is that as the change happens car makers have the product people want. Porsche sells various products at over $100k, so they have proven buyer pool that will pay high prices.

VW has money. They can put out a ton of EV’s if market demand is there. Tesla can’t put out product that fast. VW could easily be the largest EV producer in the world in 5 years time. Tesla has a profitability issue, how long can they last not making any money? And personally I’d prefer a Tesla to a VW group EV.

VW has 2 EV’s on sale now and many coming. But I haven’t crapped on GM’s EV efforts. I said Cadillac doesn’t have the image of other luxury brands so they can’t sell on status. I said Cadillac needs really good EV product. I think real names is a good idea but the vehicles have to be really good and arrive soon before the market is flooded.