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- - - - - - - - - - - DETROIT (Reuters) - Stellantis NV Chief Executive Carlos Tavares said external pressure on automakers to accelerate the shift to electric vehicles potentially threatens jobs and vehicle quality as producers struggle to manage the higher costs of building EVs. Governments and investors want car manufacturers to speed up the transition to electric vehicles, but the costs are "beyond the limits" of what the auto industry can sustain, Tavares said in an interview at the Reuters Next conference released Wednesday. "What has been decided is to impose on the automotive industry electrification that brings 50% additional costs against a conventional vehicle," he said. "There is no way we can transfer 50% of additional costs to the final consumer because most parts of the middle class will not be able to pay." Automakers could charge higher prices and sell fewer cars, or accept lower profit margins, Tavares said. Those paths both lead to cutbacks. Union leaders in Europe and North America have warned tens of thousands of jobs could be lost. Automakers need time for testing and ensuring that new technology will work, Tavares said. Pushing to speed that process up "is just going to be counter productive. It will lead to quality problems. It will lead to all sorts of problems," he said. Tavares said Stellantis is aiming to avoid cuts by boosting productivity at a pace far faster than industry norm. "Over the next five years we have to digest 10% productivity a year ... in an industry which is used to delivering 2 to 3% productivity" improvement, he said. "The future will tell us who is going to be able to digest this, and who will fail," Tavares said. "We are putting the industry on the limits." Electric vehicle costs are expected to fall, and analysts project that battery electric vehicles and combustion vehicles could reach cost parity during the second half of this decade. Like other automakers that earn profits from combustion vehicles, Stellantis is under pressure from electric vehicle maker Tesla Inc and other pure electric vehicle startups such as Rivian. The electric vehicle companies are far smaller in terms of vehicle sales and employment. But investors have given Tesla and Rivian higher market valuations than the owner of the Jeep SUV brand or the highly profitable Ram pickup truck franchise. That investor pressure is compounded by government policies aimed at cutting greenhouse gas emissions. The European Union, California and other jurisdictions have set goals to end sales of combustion vehicles by 2035. The United Kingdom has set 2030 as the deadline for going all-electric. Tavares said governments should shift the focus of climate policy toward cleaning up the energy sector and developing electric-vehicle charging infrastructure. Stellantis, created in 2021 with the merger of French automaker Peugeot SA and Italian-American automaker Fiat Chrysler NV, is on track to deliver 5 billion euros in cost reduction through streamlining its operations, Tavares said. Tavares has accelerated Stellantis' electric vehicle development, committing 30 billion euros through 2025 to developing new electric vehicle architectures, building battery plants and investing in raw materials and new technology. On Tuesday, Stellantis said it had invested in solid-state battery startup Factorial alongside German automaker Daimler AG. "We can invest more and go deeper in the value chain," Tavares said. "There may be other (investments) in the near future." - - - - - - - - - - -

Pickings are razor thin right now. toyoter dealer nearby is down roughly 60% from normal, and half of what's on the lot looks pre-owned / off-brand. If you can wait, I'd recommend it. Or- order one if you want; from discussion with the sales dude, it seems ordered vehicles sidestep M.A. pricing. Look into it, get better pricing and the exact vehicle you want. Just don't expect a sub-MSRP number (but you've indicated you prefer paying MSRP, so that shouldn't be an issue for you).

OEMs (almost always) maintain a set MSRP for the model year, and adjust rebates at the first of every month to adjust to market conditions. At least right there the buyer has a basis of comparison. When dealers invest in advertising & competition, that further exerts a small degree of price control in the local market. This all favors the consumer. In an OEM-controlled direct-sales model, there is nothing to stop the OEM from bumping MSRP monthly, because the OEM has zero competition (as with Tesla). I stated it here before; my local Buick-GMC dealer had a '21 Yukon Denali on the floor, with a $10K market adjustment. $83K > now $93K. I was told it was the last of 8 Yukons, and the other 7 all flew out the door, all with $10K M.A. on the sticker/no rebates. They had people buying them sight-unseen 4 states away. Buyers aren't walking away from these in this market. M.A. isn't something I would ever want to pay, either, but this IS an unprecedented market. Dealers charging M.A. are quite simply shifting their revenue to make up for major supply issues.

Yes, I completely agree. While I will never buy a vehicle (or probably anything) over MSRP, there REALLY isn't anything wrong with it. It's simply supply and demand playing out. I don't think the dealerships are scumbags, just trying to run a profitable business. I'll never support that myself, but it's just simple business.

I have a hard time understanding the 'greedy dealership takes away sales from the manufacturer' argument. This is how I understand the OEM/dealership relationship works: An OEM will produce a certain amount of units. The dealership BUYS those units DIRECTLY from the OEM. The OEM sells every single one it produces. The dealership is the one stuck with the unsold inventory. If dealership A-G overprice their inventory but sells every single one of them. Its OK, right? If dealership H-P overprice their inventory but doesnt sell a single unit, its their problem, right? If dealership Q-Z prices their units at MSRP and sells them at MSRP or below and they sell every single unit, that is good too, right? Dealerships A-G and Q-Z have their inventories depleted, so they order more, right? OEM builds more and sells to dealerships A-G and Q-Z. Maybe dealership A-G and Q-Z buys up the inventory of dealerships H-P, right? If my understanding of the OEM and dealership is correct, this is why I do not understand the argument. Sure, there are greedy dealerships, but if they do not sell their inventory, its on them. The OEM has already sold those units... But if greedy dealerships sell to overzealous and dumb customers, you cant fault the dealership to do so. And if THAT business model is successful, then the 'greedy' moniker should cease to be given to said dealership. If however that business model is a failure, then the 'greedy' moniker should also cease to be given. Dumb business owner should be the moniker given. Greed has NOTHING to do with buying and selling. Greed is a different animal... Anyway, back to the misunderstanding of the OEM/dealership relationship. Of course if all dealerships A through Z are incapable of selling a certain model and the OEM finds itself over producing, than that is a different angle. But the OEM will sell those units anyway and offer cash back to the dealership who will offer that cashback to the customer via rebates, right? In order to sell the units the OEM produced. In which case these units are NOT going to be sold OVER MSRP anyway, right?

Common @David First, you talk about LED lights being burnt to which Ive seen plenty of 100 year old established OEMs that have that same problem on their recent automobiles. Now...you find issues with leaks? How many F-Body pony cars had leaky T-Tops in the 1970s and well into the early 2000s? Chevrolet and GM at THAT point in time was close to 90 years old and Pontiac 80. Yes. Tesla is lacking in quality control. Not too long ago, so was GM, Ford. I dont like the bias arguments. Lets keep that under wraps. There is nothing really really wrong at Tesla with QC. They need to improve. They will. In all honesty, nothing at Buick gives me any warm fuzzies of luxury. Nor at Cadillac with their lower end offerings. Tesla fits in here perfectly with GM's offerings... Now I know you will say lets agree to disagree, but taking a stance like yours in this instance is disingenuous.

That BMW SAV is ugly AF. Especially in that awful shade of green.

'56 Lincoln ~

Greens can be a negative. Very few of them work. As for boring, I've been boring for a long time. But, at the same time, reliability can be a good form of boredom. I filed away this photo within the last few days. It's very green. I saw this within the last 6 months from a DART rail train going through a nice part of Dallas. This thing is a fright.

Me neither. And I wont be buying ANY of his vehicles EVER because I DESPISE what he represents and what he is envisioning and how he goes about it. He wanted to sell 5% of Tesla stock all along. He slyly made a point to ask a question if 5 billion will solve poverty and if somebody proved it, he wouldnt sell Tesla stock to donate to the poor somehow... Yet the phoquer does not need any proof. Why isnt he a philanthropist and just donate 5 dollars to a cause. Maybe he does donate. but he sure looked like an a$$h073 asking. The thing is, Tesla's are built OK. They are not death traps rolling out the production floor. They are death traps on how Musk markets his self driving feature. That THERE is another reason why I dont wanna buy any cars of his. Like Balthy said, most people are OK with the quirks of Tesla production and QC woes. Honestly, those woes are not that big of a deal. Others, like that Chinese incident, wont accept it. YOU, may not want to accept it either. RIGHTFULLY so! But where are YOU dissing on Chevrolet and GM when Chevrolet has launched SEVERAL HUNDRED C8s to the public that are subpar? If you want to tell me about Tesla's THOUSANDS of shytty cars. I CAN find THOUSANDS of GM cars too... I repeat, a burnt LED taillight is NOT a reason to whine about Tesla ESPECIALLY when we dont know the HISTORY of THAT Model 3... In any case, Tesla IS American. YOU are American... You SHOULD be fanboying Tesla blindly JUST how other cultures fanboy blindly their very own car industry. Wanting MORE from Tesla is what you SHOULD be saying. Not bitching that you wont buy a Tesla just because of a burnt LED taillight that probably has been hit in a parking lot... Just sayin' yes its enjoyable. Other than needless whining. I too, have seen MANY GM products that are less than stellar condition prompting me to question if I will ever own another GM vehicle... See how that works? PS: The needless whining goes for my whining about your whining...

An enjoyable discussion, we will agree to disagree as I do not think I am a drama queen when I have seen so many New Tesla hitting the road and the number of QA issues seem to be glaring to me. But then as one that is a voice of the customer for our UDS storage division at Dell, I do pay attention to all details even if it is not a big deal to you as the company needs to know when quality sucks especially in the unstructured data storage area. We are after all in the Tesla thread. So bitch or praise away as we discuss Tesla.

Common bro... You know damn well that used vehicles at car dealerships are sold as is... NO! A burnt LED taillight is NO indication of shoddy production or crappy QC. ESPECIALLY if one does NOT know what the history of the vehicle in question is all about... https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/04/youtuber-discusses-c8-corvette-build-quality-issues-video/ From a pro GM website. Yes. Yes. Tesla has issues... Yes we know that. Being a drama queen about a burnt LED taillight is disingenuous. @surreal1272 And no! Me pointing THAT out is not hypocritical of me.

I get the point you're all making, but to me as @ccap41 has state he would never support them, I also refuse to support a dealership like that. Sadly, all the dealerships around me are using M.A. on the Mach-E so getting one might not happen for me. Another reason to continue to do the maintenance and take care of my existing autos till this shortage craziness is over.

I get what you and others are saying, yet leadership is where all things start and from day 1 I have not been a Musk Fan of his leadership. Yes, he has done wonders for Tesla marketing and selling and keeping the company afloat when it should have folded, but overall, the many QC problems on Tesla autos and the less than stellar support from the company is just a few of the many issues I have with Tesla including the less than impressive leadership. Rivian I feel is a much better led company. I get what you are saying and how some members have handled things, but I do feel my laugh is deserved as I do remember the quality problems the OLD GM had as an owner of and still owner of my very first GMC Suburban that I have from 1993, a 1994 model I bought. I think I deserve the right to laugh about GM's quality issues as I have had to deal with them in the past. I am sure there are still many issues today in the new GM that I have not seen or had to deal with due to the way I buy, service and use my auto's. Lucky me. No Auto Company is perfect, Looking at Daimler to Toyota and GM. There will always be room for error, but currently Tesla is hitting more errors than quality and the global ramp up might have something to do with it along with the distractions of space, Semi trucks, etc.

Agreed and the temp tag doesn't mean it was new. You can get temp plates for used vehicles as well. For all we know this is the only issue on a vehicle with 100,000 miles. Or it's a 2021 with 5 miles on it.

Never had any poor paint on GMs: '93, '98, '03, '04, '09', '16, '16, '21. Not to say -like you say olds; it didn't happen. - - - - - RE quality, also correct that every OEM has problems (well, I would hope at the price point that Rolls' are perfect). IMO tho, certain things 'cross that line' and permanently damage that OEM's image in my book. An example from the 'HTF Did That Possibly Happen?!?' chapter is a photo I saw of a Tesla body in the assembly plant, with a huge gapped crack at the base of the A-pillar... which had also been painted over. Can't fathom how an unstressed body shell could crack like that while still on the assembly line... and NOT get caught before paint. Actually, I'm not entirely certain it didn't make it all the way out the plant door like that. I think Tesla will survive long-term and one day become profitable overall. I'm not as sure that their quality will improve (and they definitely have real & numerous issues), but will give them the benefit of the doubt. Most customers seem OK, there are of course those that have been outraged; remember this international embarrassment?

According to every reliability study and survey, it is far more miss than hit. That is the point here and in no way does that indicate some kind of bias on Davids part. Well considering this is a thread about Tesla and their issues, then the criticisms are quite valid. We are also talking about the here and now so old GM doesn't have squat to do with this. Besides, there has been plenty of GM/Ford/Chrysler smack talk over the last forty years (and deservedly so) so I say "welcome to the s***show Tesla".

NEVER to the extent of what the Bolt is going through. They were not spontaneously combusting in garages.

You do realize that he is just highlighting ONE of the many problems with Tesla right? We will skip the fact that the Model S had fire issues too. No offense but there are many, many things wrong with Teslas QC methods and standards. Any attempt to say otherwise is a bias comment itself because it ignores that very fact.

There will be a time when dealerships H-P will realize that their business model of trying to sell that particular unit ABOVE MSRP is not working and will eventually price correct, right?

Even with the biggest of defects a vehicle could have in the Bolts? You trust that over a leaky taillight?

If they're marking them all up that much, they're selling to somebody because of demand. I think those buyers are idiots but there'd be no markups if they weren't selling at all. They're probably selling every single one of them they can build, because of the chip shortage.

Competition is great. You would have to abolish all dealer agency laws in each state first. It is still difficult to shut down an underperforming dealership without a giant exit fee from the automaker, even now.

I would love this too, but there is one big BIG BIG glaring problem. Dealership GREED, I like the looks and am interested in the Mach-E, but my local ford dealers have all put anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 adjusted market value on the auto's, as such I am seeing more and more Mach-E sit on the lots. This is not good for Ford and not good for consumers when the greedy dealerships screw you over. This is what will make it hard on changing over when states protect greedy dealerships rather than letting sales via all means, online, direct and dealership play out. The old days of dealership protection needs to come to an end and let them compete on services.

And just think: so many people complain about quality in GM cars. . . . Tesla needs TQM more than GM does.

Chinese automakers, in a nutshell :

I believe that's a Dodge St Regis, circa 1980. That quarter window treatment always was tragic.

I dont like the side exhaust at all. That chrome thing sticking out like that is hideous. I do like the silhouette. Like you said, the proportions are spot on. About that Parthenon grill. If it was more bigger, it be better. And by bigger I mean of it was slightly longer Id prefer it more. Not by much. Kinda like a MK III Continental Eliminating the smaller lights and pushing the main lights in their place instead. Or keeping the smaller lights but reversing their positions with the bigger lights.

Interesting observation as I see more and more new Tesla auto's that have defects right off the line like this model 3 with a failed rear left tail light and moisture in the lens. With quality like this, competition can easily beat Tesla.

I would be all for EV's only in 2030, but I don't think the technology will be there. Maybe in 2035. The battery tech just has to get way better and cheaper so these EV's are in another price tier. The Mach-E, Model Y, VW iD4, etc are like Toyota RAV4 size, but cost $20k more, you have to erase that gap by 2030 if you want to get rid of ICE. A lot can happen in 10 years but that is asking really a lot.

The wife and I plan to as well. Our honeymoon was supposed to be in Italy but in April of 2020, it may have been the worst place to travel to so we had to cancel and we're yet to re-plan anything. We can't wait!

Well you sure showed me @oldshurst442</sarcasm>. Just remember. Just because you don’t understand context (the fact that almost all of David’s complaints about Tesla have been backed with sources and facts and never been about one damn taillight as you are implying on here) and would rather cherry pick something to death doesn’t mean everyone else here has to subscribe to the same thinking. This thread was about Tesla until you made it about David. Think about it before continuing on this pointless crusade of yours.

Also downvoted for the sheer ignorance and bitchiness By all means though, just take up another page over this mole hill as well

You can agree to disagree all you want. You and Dave are BOTH wrong...

Agree to disagree. Just seems like you are (yet again) making a mountain out of a mole hole, is all. Carry on.

Down voted for the sheer ignorance and bitchiness. By all means though, just take up another page over this mole hill.