oldshurst442

Yeah yeah yeah.. 2 doors means coupe. 4 doors mean sedan. Killjoy! While cool looking, this is DOA. No headroom in the back, the whole 4 door coupe thing is so over killed that is needs to die. CUV/SUVs are where it is at right now with cheap oil and 200+ mile EV's. While lots to like about this, I have to agree that this would sell in very small numbers and cost more than it makes. Next! It wont sell in high numbers, it shouldnt sell in high numbers. I view it as an emotion car to get American asses back in Buick showrooms with awe inspiring intentions...maybe they see Avista 4 door coupe and drive off in the the Regal, when the Regal actually gets redesigned properly like how the Malibu was re-designed. Because the Avista is an Alpha platformed car...which has the Camaro and the ATS to help amortize the platform, this Buick could not hurt to be built. The A7, BMW 6 Series GC and MB CLS are too high in the market niche for this car to compete in... I see the Avista in this range: The VW CC sold quite a few units, VW let it rot on the vine. The CLA sells like little hotcakes... I dont know what the BMW 3/4 Series GC sales are... I think a Buick Avista 4 door coupe could do very well against these Germans. SO I say build it!

Most races are four hours with no delays. You also don't factor in these little things called "cautions". Also, only a couple of races a year are 300 miles. The rest are 400-500 (and don't forget the 600 miles Coca Cola 600 race in Charlotte, NC). You are wrong and clearly have never even watched these races. The Veyron also weighs way more than your average stock car so you just go ahead and get a lesson in physics there (the Veyron weighs 700 lbs MORE than any NASCAR stock car). Besides, that MPC wasn't that close in an obviously "staged for TV" race. What I love is how some like to talk smack about stock car racing saying "it's the easiest style racing out there". Well, if it's so easy, how come outside racers (F1, Indycar, etc) have never succeeded in NASCAR (for the most part anyway)? Sunday's Dayonta 500 was 3 hours and 17 minutes. A Veyron also has 1200 hp vs about 450 hp for a stock car with the restricter plate, the 700 or 900 lb weight difference would be easily overcome. . I think the top speed Sunday was 201 mph, a Veyron would crush those cars on the straights, the question is what speed the Veyron would hold in corners. A Veyron also has a larger fuel tank but 8 or 9 gallons. As far as other racers being successful, I think most drivers are conditioned and geared to one style racing. I don't see Earnhart Jr or Kyle Busch winning any F1 championships either. Race car drivers rarely cross over and there is no way that Richard Petty or Dale Earnhart Sr (for as good as they were) are better drivers than Ayerton Senna or Michael Schumacher. It is rare, that drivers crossover, but...it does happen, and when it does happen, its rarer that these drivers are successful in other racing venues... But, there is a handful of drivers that are supreme driving Gods and had success no matter what racing venue... From the top of my head...and I know there are others except Im not a very big racing car fan...I dont watch too many races. I dont find the races entertaining. Im more of a traditional sports kinda guy: baseball, football and hockey. F1, Indy Car and NASCAR Champions among other races. 1. Mario Andretti 2. Dan Gurney F1 and Indy Car champ, 24 hour Lemans winner. 1. Jacques Villeneuve. Emerson Fittipaldi fits in somewhere in there also... And there are plenty of others! Just to say though, that each racing venue has its own unique skills that drivers need to master in order to compete successfully... Just to say, NASCAR has its own set of skills that are at least just as hard and intimidating to learn as the other racing venues...if not HARDER to master... Its the only racing series I know of that has high high banks on curves that allow the race cars to achieve 200 mph speeds...on the curves themselves... Its the only racing series I know of that going into a curve, the cars NEED NOT slow down... Its the only racing series I know of that takes skill just to STAY on the high end of the bank of the curve while trying to tailgate the leader while trying to stave off any guy that wants to pass...on the bloody curve itself... Its the only racing series I know of where TAILGATING is necessary in order to save gasoline and when the time is right, slingshot pass your opponent. So while we could make fun of NASCAR all we want...with those left only turns, it aint as easy as it looks...and it takes special skills to race in that racing circuit. Jacques Villeneuve...an Indy Car SEASON CHAMPION, Indy 500 winner, a Formula One SEASON Champion, a 24 hour Lemans winner could not actually compete competitively at NASCAR, and...we cant deny the fact that this guy...could actually race... He showed the world that his skill set is impressive and could make a NASCAR race car dance at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in Montreal with the Xfinity Series...I think he won his first race with NASCAR in Montreal...because he also knows that race track very well... We could say that F1 is all technology and its the car that won it, and that at Lemans, its as much luck as it is skill...but...he did win the Indy 500 and was Indycar Season champ....so....maybe we could stop with the excuses and the laughing of NASCAR... Also...its one heck of an entertaining spectacle... The fans are allowed to see the cars up close and personal...I wont get into the F1 snob thing...because espionage IS a real threat...but THAT is what makes NASCAR entertaining, n'est pas?

All I could here are evil laughs with this scandal... VW executives and engineers with this evil laugh, all laughing together when they decided upon this scam And Elon Musk at the news of having a car maker forced in contributing to what his company has already invested millions if not billions in...making an EV infrastructure.

A 4 door coupe, Balthy. Actually, this is a style that has history, it aint a marketing scheme for the 2000s, it was a styling theme..more common in Germany. Americans did wonders with it too... In other words, pillar less 4 door hard tops. Maybe the term was not known as a 4 door coupes back then, and in the 1990s and early 2000s there were 3 door coupes, or 3 door sedans... Saturn Coupe and Mazda RX-8 come to mind. Today, the VW CC, Audi A7, BMW 6 GC, Opel/Buick Regal, M-B CLS and CLA all have pillars, not like the old days. The modern versions do have a more coupe like roof line where its not quite a fast back, back the green house area is full on sporty. Heck, the brand new Chevy Malibu and Ford Fusion are borderline 4 door coupes. If Chevy and Ford would call them that, nobody would laugh. Maybe raise a few non-believer eyebrows, but those people are no sold on the idea of 4 door coupes anyway.. Yes, that was a dig on you, Balthy. With love of course. That is why I posted those pics, so I could suck up to you!

Yup. I was not only talking about performance...but in style too. I like the ATS looks as well, but its boy racer to me. I like boy racer, but I prefer Rat Pack cool and debonair. This Avista, might be the best looking concept and/or rendering in decades. I equate this Avista concept 2 door and 4 door rendering on the same high level of WOW as the Cadillac Ciel and El Mirage.

Yup! Both would be fantastic for Buick. Which leads me to this discussion... Cadillac... Cadillac and its ATS and sub-ATS... How does Cadillac peddle an ATS when an Avista 2 door and 4 door (as per concept and concept rendering) make the ATS so obsolete? Im sure both brands could peddle Alpha and both models could co-exist...but if Cadillac wants to succeed in this market niche...they really need to up their game because it looks like Buick is about to blow their doors off...

http://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-considers-four-door-buick-avista-coupe/ (if watermarked photos are forbidden, sorry...and please delete it.) Link above...according to Motor Trend, Buick bosses with top dog GM execs say that a wheelbase stretch and extra doors could hold key to production green light. Everyone at GM is looking how to make viable business cases for it to happen. I say...THIS is what Buick needs to get American asses into a Buick. I say...when and if a 4 door Buick Avista coupe happens, then there wont be a need for Buick to try to CONVINCE Americans that this aint your father's Buick...the car itself will prove it...VISUALLY...and THAT my friends, is how it SHOULD be done to CONVINCE Americans that Buick is FINALLY not your Grand Father's and Father's Buick... Why Grand Father? Because I figure...Buick's last great hip car was in the mid 1960s...yeah...by 2016...the time gone by sure feels like it might have been your Great Grandfather's Buick...that Riviera Im talking about. (obviously we may exclude the Buick GS(X) and Buick GN(X). The Buick GNX was your Granddad's last great Buick! Because...the 1980s was also a heck of a long time ago!

That is the caveat right there though, isnt it? Exclusivity is but one of the ingredients that defines luxury... However, One thing that visibility does is rolling publicity. Free advertisement... When a potential future buyer sees a car on the road, the potential future buyer sees a possible model or brand that he might like to own or a brand he would like to be a part of... Too exclusive where nobody sees the brand or car and no lust is created... Its one thing to see a car in pics, and its another to see it in person in the wild, engine revving, taking corners fast...and if the car is clean and shiny... And that is if a potential future buyer even sees a car in any picture of any kind... Average Joe potential future buyers dont really pursue car magazines either in paper form or internet form to see cars and to read about them... So...yeah...in a twisted effed up way...if Average Joe potential future buyers see cars on the road that look good, great, fabulous....yeah...it makes them want them... What a conundrum that is... On the other hand... Are BMW CEOs seeing a pattern of declining sales and sales conquests made by Cadillac/Audi/Mercedes-Benz/Jaguar and are affecting BMW sales goals that they want to resort to old GM tactics just to say that they are still on top? HMMMMM....

I wanna agree with you DFELT on this...but I dont know how to agree on you with it... I know I DONT want to disagree with you on this matter... Something about this project has me run afoul with my thought process about a SUV derived from the Giulia platform... I guess its because I dont know what other brand will be using this SUV platform... Because Im also conflicted because I know JEEP is also under FCA jurisdiction...and what role does this SUV play within the JEEP SUV world? Because I wanna know where this Stelvio fits in with the Jeep Grand Cherokee? And will JEEP be getting this? Or is it the eventual replacement for the GC? And are JEEP engineers in any way involved with this? And if the answer is yes...GREAT and if the answer is no...HOW COME? Anyhoo, one thing they got right in my opinion is the name... Stelvio...is a good name for an Italian enthusiast vehicle. Whether sports car or SUV/CUV...

And in Europe, where I believe Corvettes are sold. Right? Corvettes are sold through a GM of some sorts dealership in Europe... If they Corvettes are sold through certified GM dealerships in Europe, a cool idea might be to take delivery of your Corvette in France...Circuit De La Sarthe...AKA...the 24 Hrs of Lemans race track... just a thought, silly as that may sound...but then again...Chevrolet is actually doing that at Daytona... I did not think of that... Sure...back to basics marketing....very clever of Chevrolet to do that and very clever for you to have seen that.

The Bowling Green, KY factory plant delivery is what Id be doing with my Vette. And Id drive to Daytona, to break-it in, and THEN race it on the race track..and AFTER that...drive it down to the beach and try to score some honies with it...and if Id struck out at Daytona...no worries, drive a tad more south and there is Miami Beach.... Then drive it up to South Carolina... Hey...over at Motor Trend, I had concocted a similar scenario with a Hellcat Challenger in one of them Dream Car Garage threads or something similar...

OK...so...lets get back to the Tesla Model S. Thanx Hyper for that link. Even though you wont see me thanking you because you block me...yet you saw my response to you the first time... A lot of my questions about the validity of such a race were answered... And really, that is what I wanted to find out...is how logical this contest was conducted... It was creative, and after reading it, I find it MORE disingenuous to do this kind of thing...this time Im defending the Model T... Like I said...the Model T inhabited the planet when cross country traveling was still a dream... Hyper, you said that cars today are like swiss army knives...yes they are...in a different way the Model T was... Its two different machines in completely two different worlds... They are several worlds apart them to boot... When the Model T was alive...the era of flight took off... The Tesla Model S is in a world where people fly everywhere on the planet...which is just as a common thing as driving...actually, hardly nobody drives cross country anymore...people fly...yet...even the Model S was put to a test where chances are...even it will ever hardly do.... Let alone the Ford Model T...where flight was just seconds in the air...and still a pipe dream to reach one side of the country to the other... About reliability issues...3 paragraphs into the article...and THAT issue was addressed...actually, even by 1970s standards...cars had a hard time going from one side to the other side of the continent without malfunction of any sorts... That goes to show you how far the automobile has come SINCE the 1970s...and that timeline equates to 40 years of engineering and perfecting the automobile... So...was that really a fair contest...in the Model T's point of view? Too many "what ifs" and "how abouts" to really draw valuable conclusions in this exercise. OK...about the Model S... Like I said...The Model S is a different kind of pioneer and trailblazer. Originally, I said the Model S was not really a trailblazer like the Ford Model T...Id like to correct my statement and say its a DIFFERENT kind of trailblazer... Yes Hyper....glass 1/2 full - glass 1/2 empty scenario... Its just a matter of opinion where one wants to side with... Anti-EV...pro-EV... Anti-Henri Ford...(for cars in general) Anti-Elon Musk...(for whatever reasons tickle your fancy)

Thanx...but Im afraid...I think and assuming here, which is dangerous territory, other than yourself, and maybe a couple of others, that my post above, will fall on deaf ears....

Nonsense...500 miles at Daytona are custom built race cars. These are stock street cars. Oh my God you are turning into one of those Musk Zealots. LOL! They do race GT cars that are nearly stock there at the 24 hours. The fact is EV are making progress and do some things very well but they still have other things they need to work on and it will take time and more investment. Just the way it is. I would not say good bye to ICE yet and I would not dismiss EV all together. This is going to be a market of many options so enjoy them all. It is sad in the single seat racers they have to change cars half way to run a full race. When they get to the point they can run a full race with one car then we will call that progress. I just loved how that one magazine took a Model T and a Tesla and the T just about beat the Tesla to NYC even on back roads. That is a sign of more work to do. I have nothing against EV cars aspect for some of the wack jobs that like to declare them perfect. That discredits them and hurts the EV movement more than helps. That is like me claiming my Fiero is as good as a Ferrari. The truth is it is best to be honest and not try to make things into what they are not at least to this point. I see your point on this...but in reality....its not as different as anti-EV or anti-Musk zealots claiming that EVs are worthless. THAT also does not help... Its just blurry images and static noise for both sides of the fence. With that being said...because that is not what I wanted to talk about... I slept on the next thing you said...I let it sit and ferment in my brain and Ive come to an intelligent rebuttal. When I first read this part: it did not sit well with me...I did not know why at the time I read it... (The "more work to do" part I agreed with 100%) But by pondering at that thought for a awhile, I now know why I dont like that contest. The Ford Model T. It put America on wheels. Not because of mass production, this discussion does not revolve around that. The Model T put America on wheels on how it was engineered to move the people around this vast continent. Back then, America...and Canada, was not paved....and the Model T actually was engineered to go where no other car...or horse...COULD go. This video might help for what it is Im talking about. Also...the Model T...is a very versatile vehicle... The Tesla Model S...is not a pioneer of any sorts as to lead anybody on any expedition successfully to tackle the unknown world and to lead an entire nation into an economical super power. Its a little disingenuous to put those two together. The Tesla Model S is just an engineering exercise that pushes electric vehicles further...and like you said, a lot of work still needs to be done. The Ford Model T...was just PERFECT right out of the box for that time. It was the PERFECT PACKAGE for America's needs for that time. It was the PERFECT SOLUTION for America's needs for that time. It was simple. Other than the way the driving part of it was concerned. Hence its 20 year production run and its success WORLD WIDE almost IMMEDIATELY. Also...another little tid bit that Im not satisfied with... The Model T had excellent gas mileage. Put that aside though. There were no gas stations at every nook and cranny in America...just like there is no electric charge stations for the Model S...so...I havent read about how the Ford Model T was gassing up and how the Tesla was charging up...but for it to be fair, the Ford Model T should have been dummied down to 1920 levels of gas stations, not 2016 levels, so if the Model T ended not having gasoline in its tank and its in the middle of nowhere, at least let the Model T driver experience the real world of 1920s range anxiety like how the Tesla Model S driver faced...and then the Model T driver would have to calculate where the other gas station would be to make his next stop...maybe even drive a tad slower to conserve gasoline...or whatever... And one last thing... I view the Model S...especially how people drive it on the drag strip...once with a Hellcat and this time around...a Model S versus a Model X... I view the Model S as Bonneville racers... Rather than a Model T...why? Because Mercedes' first car, Oldsmobile's first car, the Model T...the horseless carriage...had already put the world on wheels eliminating the horse, the Bonneville Salt flat racers and the first hot rods, just perfected the horseless carriage to go faster... And maybe THAT is what the problem is with the Tesla Model S amongst some anti-EV people...is because they dont view the Model S as a trailblazer like the Ford Model T was or the Volkswagen Beetle, or the Renault 2CV.

Tesla really makes a GREAT product. My partner's car is 3 months old...it still new, but no quality issues to report... We are currently asking the several other businesses in our little area to maybe designate a small parking area for recharging stations...we will see how that goes. And despite he not having a charge station yet at our restaurant, he has plenty of juice to go back and forth from work to home...

That is a nice rig, Thed. Im tempted to make it my sig. But I just put up the Trans Am drag racing the Hellcat. If Im gonna take what you quoted me on and what you quoted MR. Cubical on, I guess the thing that you wanna say is that, get your lazy ass out of the sofa, grab yourself a screwdriver and a ratchet, and do some tinkering! And you are right! My dad taught me of few things on his 1979 Impala and 1986 Celebrity. I havent forgotten. I have gotten snooty though. As much as I love cars, I dont like getting my hands dirty. Its not that I dont like to get my hands oily and dirty, its just that I get greasy and dirty enough my work... I degrease the restaurant often enough that I really dont have the appetite to repeat that at home as well working on cars. Plus, Montreal aint exactly muscle car friendly...especially in the dead of winter. If I lived in sunny South Carolina like yourself...Id be more game with it. @ Mr. Cubical I got a garage...but its a small one...no space to do any kind of automotive mechanics. Ive got lots of tools. My small garage is has fit them all. I got a small air compressor. Im planning to get a REAL air compressor...I think I wanna change my own tires...since its a freakin hassle to take it to the garage for winters in the winter time and all seasons for the summer...Im willing to do that stuff...

I like that pic, Balthy. Very nice car.

Nonsense...500 miles at Daytona are custom built race cars. These are stock street cars. And...the tech will eventually get there... ICE has got over 100 years of development under its belt...

Yes...a Model S has a tach...its digital on the LED screen. This is where Im conflicted with the GT350...it really is a screamer of a sports car. Jay Leno says its more of a European sports car rather than a muscle car. Meaning, it does not move fast at low RPMs. But when the high revs happen, at higher speeds, the car comes alive. You MUST drive a Model S...its...different. No noise yet you accelerate like a rocket ship leaving the earth's atmosphere, with no transmission shift shocks...continual acceleration...and no noise...subtle electric motor whines, but real subtle... And then suddenly.. a few seconds worth, you must really put an end to it, because by this time, you are waaaaay over the legal speed limit, yet that acceleration, you want more... Its like a roller coaster ride...the adrenaline you get from that roller coaster ride....those G forces...well, its kinda replicated with the Model S' acceleration...

Me too...me too. But electric power also gets me hot and bothered... Im conflicted... However, Im not fighting the pain in my brain...Ive learned to love both at the same time... As you know CCAP, Im a muscle car guy through and through...and at the basic level...what does that mean actually? Gobs and gobs of torque at low RPMs. Well, electric power has all of its torque...and its a shyte load...INSTANTANEOUS at ANY RPM... Its hard for a muscle car guy NOT to love electric sport sedans...for the FEEL of you being pushed to the back of your seat when your foot presses the accelator pedal... Yeah.."feel"...we've seen that word before.... My partner's Model S...Oh, what a feeling! TESLA! (yeah..I stole that line from a certain Japanese automobile manufacturer)

I wasnt trying to be funny, BLU... Thanx for the downvote as well... Its fun to have someone down vote your dreams... You know Blu... That is the great thing about America...and Canada...one could do as he wishes with his money and his dreams and aspirations... Great video...I like the dialogue the best on this vid.

Yeah, replace a few black boxes now and then, then recycle after a few years and get a new one, like with laptops.. That is what I was eluding to in my post. I assumed correctly, I guess, that its a plug-n-play type deal...and the electrician/mechanic works on the shorted motherboard,bad battery pack, with no pressures in getting the vehicle right back to its customer as fast as possible...

How true on the first thought about OEMs making it easier... I wonder why they complicate things today? I mean, engineers design the car, dont they think about the "KISS" theory? Keep it simple, stupid... And...other engineers engineer how to manufacture it...you would think that the "KISS" theory would kick in at this level if not at the initial car design stage... On the second part...I forgot about how expensive batteries still are today. So...in other words, although I dont do any work myself on my cars, I at least sympathize with you if I dont fully understand how difficult things get get...you know...because I dont do any mechanics for myself, so I dont really know how complicated things are...

With electric battery packs and EVs...wont repairs return to that simplicity? At least for replacing parts...if not for actual repairing...

Instantaneous torque... What is there NOT to love? Although I like those V8 gasoline fumes...I miss it... From time to time, an old school muscle car will drive right in front of me and I take a deeeep breath just to smell those fumes... But...a BIG but, I cant wait for the day when the internal combustion engine is laid out to pasture. It may not be in my lifetime...but Im certainly ready to embrace the next generation of the horseless carriage... Im so ready, that if I ever build myself a muscle car in my retirement...a 1970 Oldsmobile 442, I might just swap the A-Body frame for an electric Tesla platform frame...or hopefully a GM engineered 100% battery platform and slide the 1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass body on top of it... Something like this... We visit Tesla (in this case) for their Tesla Model S frame with the battery packs... And instead of mating the Model S body unto it... We order a Dynacorn A-Body Shell from Year One And through miracle blacksmith fabrication (it CAN be done...the Hot Rod movement is a testament to what I wanna do...hey...if I could dream a little dream and maybe make it come true, maybe Id be making Hot Rod history in the meantime too...) I fit the 1970 A-Body on it...then we proceed to make it look like a 442... with all the Tesla software AND hardware...just the skin on the outside will be Oldsmobile 442... The first 4 could represent Tesla, Oldsmobile, GM and Dynacorn/Year One The second 4 could represent 4 wheel drive. The 2 could represent 2 door coupe. And Voila, I got myself my dream car...but fit for the 21st Century! Of course I havent researched if both wheelbases fit for this marriage...but you get the idea... If I cant do it with a 1970 A-Body...perhaps a Mopar 1970s E-Body...a Challenger or a 'Cuda perhaps...something...a mid-sized muscle car from the 1960s or early 1970s...I WILL find one that will fit the Model S frame wheelbase!