oldshurst442

Sure CCAP. The product UNDERNEATH the name is important. The Camaro went away because of many factors. One factor was the SUV craze. The other factor was the fact that a BMW 3 Series, mainly the M3, was a much better sport machine. The Camaro especially the Trans Am was nearing the 3 Series price tag. And because the M3 was THE sports car to own in the 1990s, the 3 Series became THE one to own over the Camaro if one did not want a Mustang. Fast forward a couple of years, and the Camaro made a comeback. Call a 2 door Zeta car from Chevy any other name other than Chevelle or Camaro and see if it will sell... GTO you say? Well, the look of the GTO did not inspire to an actual GTO. There was nothing wrong with the Monaro based GTO, but because the NAME is such a POWERFUL NAME...the LOOK of the car was not up to par... The G8? Call it a Grand Prix and see how fast it would have sold... The Chevy SS? Call that one an Impala SS and see how fast THAT would have sold... Regarding the D3 changing names all the time and simply not keeping what names have made an impact with people... That has to be on the same level of bad ideas as alphanumerics... But then again, Detroit automakers have crapped on some very powerful nameplates that they had no choice but to abandon the name...and start fresh...like I said, THAT is no better than alphanumerics...

OK...Balthy...Ill take it back with the Camaro...but its still semantics in my book...made up name or not, Id rather drive a Camaro ZL-1 rather than F-Body ZL-1 SS. So, we are on the same page on this topic.

I forgot. The Mazda RX-7. RX-8. OK...but the MX-5 is a Miata. The Miata name has been abolished. Yet we still call it the Miata. Dont forget, a Miata is a made up name. Why I stress the made up name part... Because even if a car is not named after a tough animal, a fast animal...Taurus, Impala Or an elegant animal Mustang Or a place that evokes elegance, luxury, style beauty...Malibu...Seville, Lemans, Monte Carlo Or roughness, Denali, Tundra, Yukon, Colorado, Sahara Or simply tough names like Fury, or Charger Made up names that sound like something...Eldorado, Camaro, Maxima, still has something emotional attached to it rather than just a bunch of letters and numbers.

This! I tried to allude to this but your post made it clearer. Alphanumeric names are by definition MEANINGLESS. Their meaning is determined slowly over time by a model's success and therefore recognizability. To change from one alphanumeric scheme to another with the goal of consumer clarity?! That's complete insanity! You just reset recognizability to ZERO. What the difference between a "name" gaining respect over time and an alphanumeric? It isn't like a Ford "Fusion" actually has a damn thing to do with "fusion". Same thing can be said for any "named" car/truck. The only "names" that seem to have any meaning are the trucks, Tacoma, Sierra, Canyon, Colorado, Tundra, Ranger, Titan, Frontier. They're places as if saying they can go anywhere tough(not sure about the Tacoma one though). But when it comes to cars and SUVs the names are just a random word, for the most part. They all start with zero value and in a few years they ditch the name for something else anyway like the Cavalier, Cruze, whatever will be next.. Escort, Focus, then whatever will be next.. Honda and Toyota have kept their names around a long time to build some value to the names but for the most part a "name" has as much meaningless-ness as CT6 or S550. Yes and no, CCAP. About names on plebeian cars... Camaro is a made up name. It means nothing. Chevy wanted to evoke a name that has camaraderie and Camaro came to be. Would you ever think of a Camaro any other way other than a Camaro? Ford Mustang...how 'bout calling the Mustang a Ford Probe. Nearly happened you know... OK...so you say that a Camaro and Mustang has built a history with those names... Well...not in 1966 and in 1964 respectively. Do you think a small sporty car with an inline 6 in 1964 would sell well had it had another name other than Mustang? Lets say it was called a 280Z. Do you think that Ford would sell? In 1970, the 280Z was introduced, and it sold well enough...it still had a name...Fairlady Z... I think the 280Z nomenclature survived not because of the alphanumerics....because smack in the middle of 1970, we had GTO JUDGES and Dodge CHARGERS and CHALLENGERS....Chevys had Chevelle 454SS and Olds had 442s...but its because the kids knew that Chevy and Olds did not play around....280Z in a musclecar world sounds better than Fairlady Z... OK...fast forward to today... R32 and R33 and R34....we prefer to call them SKYLINES!!! The R35...has a NICKNAME...GODZILLA!!! Taurus actually meant something to people...3 letters...SHO. But...people still prefer to use the WHOLE name....TAURUS SHO... IMPALA...IMPALA SS. Family haulers...but the names evoke emotions... Maybe its because Taurus and Impalas and animals... Like I said...Camaro is a made up name. So is CHEVELLE. Remember...in 1986, nobody knew what a Taurus was... If the name has no emotion attached to it today, its because Ford screwed that up... You mentioned the Fusion. Already in its second generation and the Fusion has poked some emotions in people. Enough that Ford made sure to add more emotions to the car that they added a 2.7 liter ecoboosted 325 horsepower 350 ft.lbs torque engine under the hood. After screwing up the Malibu sometime in the 1980s...Chevy brought the name back...with success....after screwing it up slightly right after they brought it back....the Malibu still has emotions attached to that nameplate with folk... Nissan Altima. Another made up name. First appeared in 1994. Immediately the name and the car instilled emotions. Its still going on strong... Even though this current generation is somewhat lacking. Nissan Maxima. Another made up name. In the 1980s, this name evoked emotions...still strong today as people LOVE this name and the car that is attached to it! Toyota Corolla. Made up name. The car sells just by the name itself. Supra...made up name... We cant wait for the next generation Supra to arrive... I wonder had the FRS been a Supra, would we be sooooo critical with it? Oldsmobile Intrigue...it was a mildly successful car. Had the Intrigue been called Cutlass Supreme instead, I think it would have been a much more successful car. It was the better W-Body...better fit and finish, better ride. You see, the Pontiac Grand Prix did not stall in sales...I bet the name had something to do with it... Replace all the names of all the cars I mentioned with alphanumerics,I dont think the impact would be that great. Model T SHO. Chevy B Body SS Chevy A Body SS Nissan R34 Toyota PE-T Twin Turbo. Toyota FRS With the exemption of Oldsmobile. Olds 442.... but its still a Cutlass... I think I made my point.

It aint a myth. Once upon a time ago, it was relevant and true. When all car brands had their own image and each individual model had style. Whether it be Chryco. or FoMoCo or GM. Mercury and Lincoln were created just to follow that formula. GM bought all those brands: Oldsmobile, Pontiac and created Lasalle and eventually had a hierarchy as follows. Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, Lasalle, Cadillac. GM did it best. They perfected the formula. Now, including GM, is just a mish mash of overlapping models with names that just confuse people. Including BMW. A 2 Series might be lower in rank that a 4 Series, but a M2 is a beast machine. So...where does that leave the base 4 Series? I dont have specs, but I feel as if the M2 is a beastier machine than a M4. What about a 4 Series GC? THAT has 4 doors. I thought only odd numbers were 4 doored vehicles? And...why is a 3 Series a 4 door only model? Back in the day, when I was a young pup, a 3 Series was a 2 door... Then they made it 4 door. And there was a M3 4 door as well... Back in the day, a BMW 318 had a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder. A 325, had a 2.5 liter engine. We KNEW it was an inline 6... Today...what is going on? A 6 Series is a 2 door...but I saw a 4 door 6 Series the other day... With Cadillac owners... They seem to be confused what really is a CTS, an ATS...what model replaced what... Really, that is an anecdote that happens when I talk to my clients that own recent Cadillacs. Mercedes-Benz is not without confusion either. Same anecdote with my clients and their Mercedes cars. E class, C Class, S Class is easy enough for them. Its when M-B has added a 3rd letter that confuses them. Where in the puzzle does a CLA fit in? A CLS? They often ask me is a CLS a S Class type vehicle because that is how its marketed, as a very high end model or is it a C Class because of the letter C in the front of the "name." When I tell them the CLS is a car off the E Class platform, they look at me dazed and confused and almost call me a liar because there is no letter "E" in the name... Sure, they all know they drive a Cadillac, BMW or Mercedes. But I feel, this alphanumeric bullsyte does not tie them down to the brand at all. Because there is no connection with the model in the first place. They are confused to what in the hell they are driving. So how can they fall in love with the brand if they just use the model and in a few years just dump the car for another one. And often enough, they jump ship to the other luxury car maker next door. With leasing, its easy. Its like phoking a whore. You phoque her for an hour in the backseat of your car and dump her at the next block. On to the next whore. She is faceless. Like the cars. Nameless. Its cold.

I saw it at the Montreal Auto Show. I dont like it. I had a hard time deciphering if Im looking at a Alpha Camaro or Zeta Camaro. It looks that much like its predecessor. I do have a trick to tell them apart. I look at the front end. The Alpha Camaro has a rounded front fender/bumper front area... I was looking at that for ages before finally having the courage to sit inside it without puking! Sure, the interior is a nice place to be, better than the Zeta Camaro...but man, I cant stand that look. ITS DATED! Meanwhile, I travelled back to the Dodge area (because the Dodge area was at the beginning of the show) while the Chevy area was in the middle to sit inside the Challenger Scat Pack (because the Hellcat was on a "do not touch" pedestal going round and round) just to get the koodies off of me. I felt dirty after getting out of the Camaro. Sleazy. All I kept thinking about was Sam Witwicky and Bumblebee. The Challenger AHHHHH! The Challenger. Same rawness...but with sex appeal. Classy of you will. One was made for whoring corporate America....much like Christina...and the other is just pure Rock-N-Roll!

My partner's wife has a 2006/7 GMC Acadia. 1st generation, 1st year. Loves it to death. Nice ride. Congrats to your mom!

I with you Wings. A Vette at 6 bucks an hour...hell, Ill take a Vette at 106 bucks an hour... Trust me though, especially since the Vette aint mine and its Maven's...Ill be doing this to the Vette:

"You know where you are?" IM IN THE JUNGLE, BABY! WHERE I COME ALIVE! I carry my crucifix Under my death list Forward my mail to me in hell East L.A. at midnight Papa won't be home tonight Take a ride with me on the wild side.

Thanks, I have a ton of relatives in that area supposedly but never been there or met them. One day have to drive out and see what other Felts are like in the mid west. Im envisioning this for you: All in the name of fun...of course Mr DFELT!

Hey!!! I pity the fool who dont like Journey! They got good music! I faithfully listen to their music still today. I have never stopped believing in Journey. Steve Perry's voice is like a fine wine...sherry wine. so...who's cryin' now for avoiding Journey? (I couldnt fit this song in my little story, but Id thought Id force it on to you folk anyway! )

Any automotive CEO that says that is a liar, a cheat and an imbecile... Eldorado is a made up name. Spanish in nature, but made up. Sounds good. Oh..people also recognize it all over the world. Phaeton, a former Cadillac name....its also well recognized all over the world. VW even uses WORLD WIDE... Rolls Royce uses plain old English... Phantom, Wraith, Ghost...WORLD WIDE. Bentley uses English and French, Continental, Mulsanne. Bugatti...Veyron. Lamborghini...Countach, El Diablo, Reventon, Gallardo, Huracan, Veneno, Aventador... Funny, everybody on the damned planet knows that these are all Lamborghinis!!! Hell, even Ferrari has joined the real name party somewhat... Enzo, LaFerrari. I get the notion...for the last time, I understand that alphanumerics places the brand ahead of the model... I still call bullshyte on that logic as those real names I mentioned dont take ANYTHING away from the brands they represent... Like I said, if someone says they drive a Countach, even in 2016, people know its a Lamborghini! Ditton for Egoista...and people know EXACTLY what EXPENSIVE model it is!!! Their is NO confusing a M3 as a 2 door, because that is what it was before, no confusion on the 2 Series being the former 3 Series which is now the 4 Series...and what displacement is it???!!! No confusion on ATS is the new CTS. No CT6 will be the former CTS, the CT5 is the new DTS...what about the STS? Oh...that would be the new CTS... When someone says that Elvis loved his Eldorados, they immediately think get off 1 for the money, 2 for the show and stay off of my Blue Suede Shoes while I drive my Pink Cadillac...Eldorado... (OK...maybe Eldorado is from a bygone era, I get THAT...so..El Miraj then!!!) Continental...from Lincoln...funny that people did not confuse this with the Bentley of the same name...but tied it to LINCOLN!!! And...somehow...the last Continental car from the early 2000s did not even cross people's minds...the classic 1960s and 1970s style was front and center in their minds... THAT should be proof enough for ANYBODY to STOP defending and using alphanumerics on their cars!!! Thinking of YOU, JOHAN!!!

True Drew, about ST... I LOVED the name STS...but I loved the name Seville Touring Sedan even better. Cut short to Seville is still best in my opinion. Its grateful that the powers that may be cut short the STS moniker, or else we would have STDs running around today for other model names.... So yeah, I dont like the ST# either. But...I guess where their is a will, there is a way.

I could not be in more agreement with Balthazar over the stupid alphanumeric bullshyte! And the full line of models bullshyte spanning all the price levels... And Mr. Cubical, I personally think that 40 000 is still too low of a market for Cadillac. But if there is a need for a Cadillac model that low in price for profitability purposes, so be it. Ill still stick to my original dream Cadillac list...but the CT1 roadster STARTS at $50 000. OK...$40 000... Cadillac also needs to revisit XLR...but better executed...with a HIGH PRICE TAG as well as a Ciel convertible. The Ciel could be an El Miraj coupe convertible or a CT8/CT9 4 door convertible just like how the show car was/is.

I did not know you had 2 kids already. I thought it was just you and your wife. That is even better news that I learned from you today! Yeah, Frisky. The RAV4 is a good little car. Good choice! (I just thougth Id post something funny. Whether my post translated into laughter or not, I tried.)

Well, I should get some sort of credit as I did get the Toyota replaces Toyota comment right. Well, Frisky. You just gave me another way I could use this emoticon... In all seriousness though. Good for you for that purchase. If that is what the doctor ordered for your family needs and pocket book, regarding fuel economy and such, so be it! Rav mothereffin 4. In all its CUV cuteness and all. The 4Runner was such a GREAT SUV. A REAL SUV...*SIGH* The RAV4...SIGH* a soccer mom appliance. *SIGH*... But, HEY! THAT is the right vehicle choice for you! GOOD ON YOU! ^^^^ YES...ALL SARCASTIC this tone is!!! (But you snickered and DENOUNCED the minivan suggestion...yet the RAV mothereffin 4... ) SERIOUSLY THOUGH!!!! CONGRATS ON YOUR NEW ACQUISITION! ENJOY IT! FILL IT UP WITH KIDS!!! YES...GET CRACKIN'!

He said it was Japanese though.

Toyota HIGHLANDER. Toyota replaces Toyota.

Well, the El Miraj is a coupe, the Ciel would be a convertible version of the coupe. Or the Ciel would be a 4 door convertible of the CT8 or CT9 sedans. But OK...a Cien-esque super car sounds like a product the world has never seen before. Im all for it! And, looking back at my list and Casa's list, this is why I still think this naming scheme has Cadillac backed into a corner. CT2...sub ATS car Where does a coupe version go? CT1? OK...I guess Cadillac wont do any kind of roadster, then...what about convertibles? I guess a new letter will be added, like XT for SUVs... CT3 is ATS CT4 is ATS coupe CT5 is CTS sedan... I guess no CT5 coupe? cool, but they do need a BMW 6 Series coupe and 6 SeriesGC competitor...remember, the CT6 is a mid-sized sedan...slightly larger than the current CTS... A new letter shall be added? OK...CT4 and CT7 disagrees with that... CT7 as far as we know WILL be an El Miraj type coupe... CT8 is a sedan as so is a CT9....quite possibly... This new naming scheme SUCKS! Casa, you could make fun of CT0, but this is where its going...and CT10 and CT11 and CT12 just sounds stupid! Actually...so does CT6 and CT4... Ive posted something similar before, I aint going down that road again....but I wish Johan would clear up this mess his predecessors created. I have faith in him products wise, and Drew has cleared up the confusion that it wasnt Johan to start the alphanumeric CT stuff, I hope he realizes that CT2, CT3, CT4 and so on does not exactly leave much room for logical expansions.

I was gonna say Lincoln MKX next, but since it was mentioned already, Im sticking to my choice of Ford Flex. EDIT: If it was the Flex, you woulda said bingo. Nissan Murano.

Ford Flex

A Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8.

Well...if a CT2 vehicle is in play and "smaller" than an ATS (CT3), then my dream Cadillac is as follows. CT1 = A Saturn Sky type roadster to do battle with the upcoming new BMW Z5. Obviously on the Alpha platform and obviously heavily engineered from the Camaro...but the CT1 being a real 2 seater as the Camaro technically has seats in the back. CT2 = This sub ATS..I want it to be as close to as possible in all specs to the BMW 2 Series and M2. Length, wheelbase and performance. CT3 = ATS, slightly larger than what it is now, but slightly smaller than a current BMW 3 Series. CT4 = ATS coupe. Slightly larger than what it is now, but slightly smaller than what a BMW 4 Series is. Nix the Buick Avista, let this Buick Avista morph into an ATS coupe with a definite "GC" model. CT5 = CTS CT6 = In the very near future, let this CT6 evolve into a BMW 6 Series GC and a M-B CLS 63 competitor. CT7 = El Miraj....and call it the El Miraj if Eldorado is deemed to old phogeyish! CT8 = S Class competitor. And call it whatever...but not effin CT8. CT9 = Roll Royce competitor, M-B Pullman/Maybach... And call it whatever you want, just dont call it CT8. Rolls Royce and Bentley both have actual names in tjis category,...Cadillac should do the same thing here...Call it the Sixteen. CT10 = A convertible...like the Ciel...and call it the Ciel. Either a 2 door, but Id rather a 4 door convertible exactly like the Ciel, based on the CT7/CT8/CT9. An electric/hybrid supercar along the lines of a Mercedes SLS/Gullwing, without the actual Gullwings and call that car the Evoq. Or Provoq. Escalade remains...in the very essence of what an Escalade is all about with the name intact!

I was just gonna mention the 4Runner...so Ill go with you replaced it with a GMC Acadia.

I think that my educated prediction from a few weeks back, base don JDN's words, is that this vehicle.. ready for launch late '17, as an '18 model.. will be of similar size internally to the current ATS, while the ATS(CT3) gets a size bump in line with the ATS-L.. price??? How much U wanna bet maximum on the CT3 will be a +$700 bump from the previous year of teh ATS. This sub-ATS will come in at a relative $29,999 If waz u iz sayin' iz tru...WTF is Cadillac doing offering cars in this price range? I read your insight about the 500 000 units for Cadillac versus Balthazar's, and I must admit, I agree with your vision rather than his, however...in a situation like this...Im with Balthazar and in no way in hell do I want Cadillac to attain 500 000 units with cars that are mostly sold in this price range...THIS does NOT make Cadillac top tier luxury. THIS makes Cadillac more like BMW...hell, more like Chevy....(yeah...I dont really care that it will have RWD) I envision Cadillac to become THE world's most prolific and most luxurious brand in the world. I envision Cadillac to be the Standard of the World again. Full of obnoxious entities that piss of the poor. Because, top 1%ers live a life of luxury that the poor are envious of, but are so over the top that that also pisses them off. And THAT is where I want Cadillac to be. However... I DONT envision Cadillac selling Cadillacs even below in price to the Buick Envision... (yes...Pun very much intended) Hell...with the Buick Avista shown,and potentially being built Im having a hard time accepting a Cadillac ATS coupe or sedan even being sold at Cadillac...let alone car smaller and less expensive than an ATS. Id rather have Buick sell the Alpha platformed car...