razoredge

Do the auto workers have pay tiers ? Or is it like an apprenticeship where they start low and then once they have established thenselfs they get rate and there is only one rate ? Im just more fimiliar with the contruction Unions, rate is rate in most cases and everyone once established get it. Equipment operators have differnt levels of skill so there is a few rates there with Crane rate being the Cadillac. The reason I ask this is, if there is different pay levels, according to years of service then these 30 year people would be the ones at that high 25 or 27 rate? If so getting these people to take their retirement as well as draining the job banks seems like it would save a fortune over the course of a few years. Without insulting and worse yet destroying the lives of workers that have 10-15-20-25 years vested. I guess this is not Delphis problem though, theirs is far worse, especially being to the point where it is in the hands of an evil, ruthless, could care less multi billionaire who has stolen a multi billionaire life style by destroying businesses and creating human wastelands across America. Seems to me the writting is on the wall for Delphi. 9 buck is not near poverty it is below poverty. Your in poverty at 12 bucks possibly even at 14, Im not sure, I havent looked it up in awhile. You cant get anywhere with your workforce if your going to stand there and tell them you want to send them to the trailor parks, because some old rice farmers in China are willing to work for meals and a bench to sleep on. Didnt anyone else ever read Good Earth ? I thought here in America we had progressed from that kind of life and lifestyle, now we must compete against it ? Im not denying any of the serious problems involved with the UAW's package. Id think cleaning it up first would be far more mature that blowing in, making huge generous packages for the destructionests, and then offer your workforce enough weekly pay to live on penutbutter and jelly and pay the lot rent at the local trailer park. $16 per hour on a 40 hour week isnt much of a paycheck in todays American economy. Which isnt the global economy in case some may have some kind of misunderstanding of economys So my question is, knowing a bit of the story from both sides. Are any of these powers that be serious about takeing care of the problems we are facing in America or are they just going to blow it off because their making the big buck and they cant see it from their house? This is much larger than : "this Delphi/UAW battle is pivotal in shaping the future of U.S. domestic automobile manufacturing". This is about America as a whole and how low are we going to lower our people to appease the rest of the world......or worse yet a bunch of crazed daily traders that offer no contribution to socioty - WHATSOEVER!

I have never thought about or looked into this before, not being a new car buyer. This residual value is your trade in value ? Or outright resale value ? That is based on what used car (preowned) dealers have found they can typically resell the car for ? All I can say is wow ! So, if you buy a 30,000 car and drive it for 3 years at 50% residual it cost you 5000 + tax & interest per year just for the car ? Yikes, that definantly changes my mind on buying new anytime in the near future. I have typically spent 1000-1500 per year on cars, including purchase price and any bits and pieces that needed replaceing. Some like our 86 LeSabre only cost about 800 per year, including tires, but back in 96 at 70,000 miles that was a great buy for $2500. Detroit autoline had a program about car finance and they were saying recent times is the first time new car buyers have not carried any equity in their new cars. In other words at any time during the loan they owed more on the car than it was valued at. Needless to say things like sales tax, and rapidly inflating auto insurance are not even figured into the equation. We are a transportation based economy. $500 and beyond per month just to get to work, kinda makes it seem like our priorities are screwed up.

Anemic ? Its .8 litre or 22% smaller so I would imagine it felt 22% less powerful.

I believe the 3.6 will be full replacement when ever that time comes. they should be tooling up a plant in the US to meet production demands. The 2.8 is way to small for this size and type of car. It would be a great little powerplant in midsize cars or small performance cars. Such a shame its the same size as 3.6, with that its kind of a pointless engine, manufacturing costs can not be much different between the two and it occupies the same size area.

So some campaign publicity idiot/crew decided to bow down to the abuse of magazine crews and make such a stupid statement. Therefore the cars Im driving are not good ? yarite ! What the heck you argueing with me for. I drive GM's, old GM's, high mileage GM's, its not true because Im driveing these cars that prove its not true. I beleive that statement mentioned something about Chevette and Citation. If those are the cars you think of when you think of GM you do not belong here (in this topic) because you are clueless as to the full spectrum of GM. first that was a really stupid publicity stunt, even if it was 100% true is was dumb. Apparently so because GM's sales have died in the past 2 years in ways previously unimagineable, yet the "admittance" refers to early "compact" cars (most likely built in Brazil) from the late 70's early 80's. Regardless it was a really stupid stunt, because of the interpretation of it and potential aftermath. Hello, Ive come to fill out a job application, I used to be a piece of crap, I only worked till I got paid then got drunk until the money ran out and then I showed up back to work. They got pissed off and fired me. Im all better now, will you please give me a job ? yarite ! So who the hell thought up those marketing "steps" :lol: Dont call us hard headed, what ? because we drive GMs and dont have the issues that you do ? Therefore we are the ones living in the twilight zone ? Fraid not ! Yes in deedy the Cavaliar is the only car that GM ever made, well, they made a few others but they were just like the Cavaliar. then of course the competiton who ever they may be never made inferior product. All two models ? We're not saying improvement is not currently needed. We are not saying that everything in the passed was all peachy either. We're simply saying GM had made some damn fine product, in all decades or generations. They have progessed steadily as could be expected with the changing times and regulations today compared to what "the people wanted" 30 years ago. I dont see "us" painting GMs as more than they have been but I do see you guys painting them, as a whole, much worse that they have been. Your all just to fixated on that Chevette, Citation, Cavaliar thing a ma jigga. Somebody admits to a few flops and you want to make it the golden rule across the board. I'd call that motivated interpretation. Are you a magazine person ????? Crikies, you want us to say our cars are crap, until then you will not be happy. You call it "admitting" ? What do I have to admit to ? I put a alternator in my 328,000 mile Oldsmobile 2 months ago ? The window/seat switches that are located at the fingertip on the arm rest are made of chromed plastic ? The tilt wheel does not telescope ? The trunk pull down still works but I can hear the little electric motor running as I walk to my door ? The climate control works perfectly but the outside temp gauge rises from the heat of the motor or sun while it sits so I have to drive it for a few minutes before it gets back to air temp ? I have to occasionally change my oil ? The really cool door pull handle that is frenched into the door panel and hinges out when I pull it is hard like its made out of some sort of IRON product ? Sorry I just cant think of anything else. So maybe tomorrow sometime I will get my work done and we'll run to the city in our class leading 1990 Oldsmobile Regency........naw, thats kinda old so instead Ill take the opportunity to enjoy our special car, the updated version, a 1997 Oldsmobile LSS, if the NE weather is nice. Or maybe Ill need some stuff for the house so Ill take the old war wagon. Decisions, decisions what inferior car shall I drive ? Which one say I ? Im so damn hardheaded I think Ill walk instead. Maybe I can find a cab company to come get me in a Civic so as I dont have to be seen driving around in those inferior products. They must be inferior because some idiots at GM made a statement about some inferior products they produced at Chevy 3 decades back.

One can only imagine why my origional post was deleted ? Because I said it was stupid that the only G6 remain FWD option contained the phrase "who wants a RWD V6 ?". What the hell kind of poll is that ? It cant be serious. "who wants a RWD V6" has nothing to do with GTO/G6

and the 3-4 year old Buicks will still be the best used car buy on the market.....as always ! :D

enzl : 1986 LeSabre - 150,000 miles, still sweet and clean, yep the piant peeled 1990 Regency 328,000 miles, still sweet and clean, needed some new metal welded in but like its 15 NE years old w/320,000 miles 1990 Cierra Cruiser - 190,000 miles - its hard to defend this car outside its reliability and handy factor. It is not a good driving car, I have questioned if they ever tracked tested the suspension. Surely it should have come with heavier front bar and a rear sway bar but it did not. It has the Buick engine not the Chevy so the reliability factor is CLASS LEADING. Interior was probably quite nice at the time it came out, still looks good today when its cleaned up. It very comfortable but thats all I can say positive. The suspension or geometry is all F/UP. 1997 Oldsmobile LSS 110,000 miles, still darn near "new" condition, a much updated version of my other two cars and that technology shows. Suspension could be better but it was top of the line luxury car so its still kinda soft even with the LSS package. 1999 Eighty Eight 50th Anniversary, I had it for a year 70,000-80,000 miles. It was one sweet car. Smooth, comfortable, quite, powerful, fast, heaven in sheet metal and soft as silk. However that softness really went bad in spots on these tossy country roads, thats the only negitive I can say besides this following story - which was a problem related to the dealerships service department not the entire production of this model car. It went back to dealers under lemon law. It had an engine management problem (occasional intermitant hesitation) that the dealership refused to admit existed and failed to cure. Although they did everything from rebuilding the tranny (which was fine and I knew it was not the problem) to replaceing the problematic plastic lower intake & gasket (which also was not the problem) to a "fuel injector service" which again I knew was not the problem. Anyhow they couldnt get the job done and tried to get me to live with the car because it "did not on occasion fall on its face for 2-3-4-5 seconds". I was convinced it was the car from hell. A mind of its own. 90% of the time it responded to gas pedal as it should have, the other 10 % it acted like an old carburated car that needed the accelerater pump rebuilt. I wasnt goint to live with it so I took them to court and won - by myself. So apparently I do know how to build a case. I believe my above post also proves I have an open mind and high awareness of what constitutes a fine automobile and some of the short fallings GM had, at least in the FWD A body department and this one glitch in that '99, which frankly myself and other intellegent, non mechanically challenged people, felt could be fixed with a PCM reboot, but alas the dealership wanted to play games. Wasnt there a topic recently regarding items at the dealership level ? :P Naw, GMs dealers are not a part of the problem.........naw! :unsure: 134 problems per 100 compared to 115 per 100 ????? Wow, here Id been thinking all other manufactures cars were flawless class leaders :blink: We wont get into the fact that GMs largest clientel is older retired folks that take the car back to the dealer just for someting to do. I have been told by many waitstaff peoples that old folks are a real pain in the butt when it comes to serving dinners and not get complaints. I dont know if theres a tie in or not, but I feel its a relevent point. Because you believe my cars are junk ? and I have mileage that says otherwise. You need to be compelled by words and I am compelled by the product that I drive. You all want to pull the worst Chevys out of your hat and many of us would no sooner consider a Chevrolet car than a Toyota or Honda. Did I tell you I had a Honda back in 1980, it was a 1975/6 maybe, thats how forgettable and unreliable mechanical piece of junk it was, not that it rusted fast or anything :rolleyes: We did have a 75 Datsun 710 that was great, reliable, fun but my 86 Buick LeSabre was lightyears beyond that ol Datsun in every form of technology and build quality. It also blew the doors in these aspects compared to my 80 & 81 VW Rabbit variants, which were also excellent cars but Buicks they were not ! Ya know guys, GM just released quite a bit of new product in the past few years. There has been little but bitchin and whinin and cryin from half of you while the other half wonders whats the problem. Now its going to be two more years before much happens. So until then we gotta listen to all this bitchin and whinin and cryin, thats 2 years worth of bitchin, whinin and cryin. Then we know that at that time there will be brand new items that are already sitting ducks for more bitchin whinin and cryin. So how about that STS, CTS, Lucerne, DTS, Solstice, G6, GP GXP, Lacrosse, Corvette, Monty Carlo and Impala ? Frickin awsome dude ! :metal:

Now heres an example of the attitude the media pulls on GM product. Rather than saying good car they would say "Wow, this is your most reasonable CAR (post) I have ever DROVE (read). Though I don't fully understand WHY YOU BUILT IT (your second line), and I think it's not what I WANT (am thinking). Can you REBUILT (rephrase) it?"... "Oh, did I forget to mention TOYOTA, HONDA, BMW, AUDI, VOLKSWAGON? " Now word gets around that said magazine says this and presto, a few more sales for Toyota. Ive made ample good posts on many subjects on this and other boards. Some may not agree with my ideals and my approach. Many obviously have problems with my dialect. Often it seems some cant comprehend my random quick points, that I feel, need no further explaination. Oh well, what are you going to do? I write as I talk and people always have problems following along. Get with it already, would ya? :) I am a very resonable man, therefore there are things that I will not tolerate. Destroying American industry and its diverse work force is one of them. Your Japanese cars are not better to a large enough degree to get me to support the economy of these countries. As it is, in so many ways beyond our control, that is exactly what I/we do, is support other economies as we destroy the lives of millions of Americans. Those Americans are on their way out, what a way to go ey ? Preached and sold the "American dream" only to watch our leaders sell us out by the millions to appease a comparatively small handful of Wall Street money grubs. There is many new generations to come that need jobs and product to be proud of. The American built car is the last piece left of what was once great, do you really think Im going to sell out because of the misconception that a DOHC engine is more "sophisticated" and gets .05 more mpg ? Or because some palstic "center stack" is not the same as this here other plastic "center stack". Hardly. I know, let me guess - "He just dont get it" Problem is, I do get your "it" and I also get my "it". My "it" by far over rides your "it" in my eyes. Now back to the product. GM has been making cars to fit the needs it provides for decades. I wish they would have changed sooner but I was around and remember the gotta have a V8 or nothing attitudes, we still see them. I remember and know there are still people that want to float down the road (Perhaps soggy isn't the right word, so don't get your panties tangled up. It was solid, but absorbed bumps, no it didn't absorb, more like lightly reminded you they were there. No absorbing)with effortless steering ( Disconnected steering) Highly exagerated but we have come to expect that. Almost as if extracted directly form the mouth of a automotive journalist. Now with your panties in a bunch attitude we are supposed to not give any attitude back? As well as agree with your "junk" theories ? Its funny that any Aurora owners I have heard from speak highly of the ride and handling balance. Some cars sacrifice interior space due to styling restraints. Now your Passat is a handsome car but it hardly made a styling statement. I believe the Aurora was just that, a styling statement that Oldsmobile built a car around and put to production. Once again, Oh well, you think we are going to sit here and try to accept a vision of the GM's from the 90's without the Aurora in it ? or the STS/SLS, Eldorado, Eighty Eight, Park Avenue, Reatta, Riviera, Regency, Aurora #2, Seville, Lesabre, Intrigue, Regal, Grand Prix ? Not likely ! Im glad you mention Chevy. Now see, I agree, Chevy needs to go so all GMs can be state of the art, qualityBuicks and Oldsmobiles. :unsure: Once again I will say that turbo and many many others who post here do the best advertising Toyota and Honda could ever hope for. Im just about ready to jump ship myself, I am nearly convinced my sub par tastes need to be tossed in the garbage and move to Asia, where I can get a job, free room and board and all a human could possibly hope for. It saddens to think that you are underpaid for your hard work. Now how about that STS-V, it was the most currently compared General Motors car in the Rag rags. It makes an awsome styling statement, awsome performance numbers, retains some of what being a Cadillac is all about and yet, its sub standard ? I dont feel that way. Lucerne - once again, everything we could hope for in a Buick but still no respect, I dont feel that way Lacrosse - some feel is a great improvement, yet no respect. I dont feel that way DTS - ? I dont know but Im sure it gets no respect C5 - sorry its all Ive actually been around or drivin. I found no fault with the interior, other than its that typical black sports car fasion, myself Id prefer it all gawded up. I liked how it was laid out and styled. Yet you still find something to down about Corvette even though its competition cost $150,000 + Incidently 84 C4 won the R&T sports car shootout and was also priced less. Cobalt - I dont frequent Chevy area so I really know little. I drove one and liked it plenty but it was a huge step down from our cars so Im no judge of this size car anymore. It was a great drive and ride. Had that 4 banger sound and feel I had long since forgotton about. I really cant judge these size cars but the Cobalts somewhat unique styling does not fit me a much as I would like. Yet it performs well, just recieved a powertrain credit, had some race success it first year......I dont know is that class competitive ? It is sad that GM never really did the small car well but I just dont feel that way about the midsize and larger cars from GM. They tried with that Brazilian OHC 2 litre in the 80's, various Japanese and Korean efforts. Perhaps they should have looked within, much earlier. Perhaps the global environment versus the American econonmy made this impossible. Damn us for having built that high standard of living, it just screwed everything up, but not for the Japanese, did it ? It played right into their hands. Sorry for the long random bouncing post but believe it or not all this ties together and in the end we come back to the beginning. history, perception and the media

Im not trying to get under your skin, the problem is all this business has gotten under mine, kinda obvious, right ? I would say though, that if some would deal with our opposed views to yours better it might help. Just a thought. random items: I dont know why but upon approach to any of those cars you have mentioned ? they just dont grab ahold of me. I have a thought about GM seats myself. I believe their best seats have been the big puffy Buick and Oldsmobiel seats, beter than the normally loose fitting "buckets". I remember the old Camaro "buckets" all to well. Now my 64' Sunbeam had buckets that fit my then scrawny butt as good as my jeans. And with elbow on console, the shifter was a click click of the wrist to next gear, maybe a 4" throw, straight into the tranny.....t i g h t ! It was also a true old school heal/toe pedal layout. So I's knows a bit me self. Heal/toe is the only way I drove it....non syncro first. It also had excellent dual large piston large front disc's. Sunbeams also had telescoping wheel (as a point of interest, not bad for 64) There was a lever on the bottom of the seat that gave two lower level postions, the backs were fully folding. Three steel doors that closed into the body work to cover the top......that you did need to get out of the car to put away. Pretty cool car for 64. Enough of that. The cars you think of and mention when refering to GM's are rarely cars Ive been interested in as well. Not GM finest. Now my 91 W- Regal Limited was really quite a car, it had a gentle 223,000 miles when I bought it. My trip to work was a sweet back road drive of 32 miles. The Regal was one of the favorite cars Ive owned, probably 2nd to the Alpine. The 38 was strong in that car and I never did find out what final drive ratio was but it never labored. I believe that was a 3100 lb car, we dont see that today. The Japanese have always had excellent OHC engines (mostly), Ive wore out my share. 3 litre Mitsu V6, 2.6 Mitsu hemi I4, Datsun L20B 2 litre 110 hp, Toyota 22R then a couple VW I4's that were superior to the Toy/sun/chi My transformation into my Chryslers, Buicks and Oldsmobiles was almost a relieve, comfort and ease. Even better reliability, I put alot more parts into those import vehicals above. They were great but I worked on them. I still have not done any engine or tranny work to a 38 or the 60,65E trannys. Yep so this is all I know, but whos complaining ? :) Now take the STS-V, wasnt it just prefered over a Mercedes ? Yet everyone is picking it apart. It producing over 100hp per litre, 440 twin turbo GM DOHC, best technology they have, yet "its not enough". The fact that the Caddy still retains some Caddy put it up for target practice. Guess what ? I love that car. That is one car I know I will never own but man if I was in that tax bracket Id be right on that baby. Sure it could be "better" if I built it but I cant build cars. I have seen STS on road and I prefer it over the CTS and would give it better sex appeal than an Audi, from the outside. Sure they knotched off the interior, I wouldnt have, but they did. It cant look like another car

Actually there is nothing funny at all about that kind of behavior, and it happens all the time. So whatever your problem is with finding this funny..........

Now you wanna say stuff about people that keep repeating the sa mo bull. We've heard this before. I think your actually quoting OC on that. Im not sure if it was "complacent attititude" or greats amount of money spent out of shop that is the largest contributor to being somewhat behind in the develpoement area.

Incidently, I shouldnt have to even say this but it seems to be an ignored factor to your every car needs to be class leading attitude. Nobody, not one, builds as many models of cars as General Motors, they have or did have classes that no one other than Ford or Chrysler had product in. You just way out of control. I wonder if your girlfriend is good enough for you and if the next model that came along was just slightly better at something you would start riding her about all her faults ? Ya know mine aint the best cook but shes one damn good companion. potato potato

OK turbo - I have asked you this question many many times and never got an answer. "if there is a number of models, then list them......, and defend with facts, then you are simply stating a ludicrous argument." ???? So yea, how about you do that. You wanna bust on the GM's of the 80's give me your leaders ? Im not going to give you a list or put alot of effort into researching cars I know little about. At the same time I just cant even remember a Toyota or Nissan from the 80's. THey both built one hell of a "mini" truck, but how about cars, I have a feeling they were exactly what you are bitching about GM over. FOrgettable. Now lets move to the early 90's, give me your favorites ? 80's - I loved the Rivieras, Toronados, LeSabre's and Delta 88's, Regencys and Park Avenues, the W body trio Regal/Grand Prix/Cutlass, sadly the Buick was the only one to have a competitve engine but that WAS another topic. Then the Caddys were nice but again the Caddy V8 was troublesome, (was it the only troublesome engine on the market?) That dang 38, it was just so good everyone hates it. In the 90's GM brought us the N*, A* and S*. They got great performance from the Q4 but that too was troublesome, none the less you can see the money trail. Yet you claim they did nothing during these years. We got the Aurora, a nice Riviera (some like some dont) Eldorado and yes the Seville. I think the 92-99 Eighty Eights are titz and I know many that though the same of the PA or Regency, Lesabre was setting records or something wasnt it ? Once agian let me remind you technoheads, the Aurora race engine dominated for years, nothing could touch it, yet you wanna act like GM did nothing and had nothing. Your just spinnin the same spin that this topic is all about BIAS MEDOW COOKIES

Well, this is bull. Every employee deserves a retirement plan of some sorts. I think the top management should work for 0.00 before this kind of chiseling takes place. It was their poor decisions that lead to this bind. They should be locked in and working for nothing until it turns around. Then maybe they will get their jobs done. I feel badly for all here in N America that are and have been hurt by this "new economy" "boom economy" "global economy". We are the consumers we should also be the producers. This is just yet another effect of going "global". AND we are just at the beginning, give it 5 years, 10 years, fifteen years. Tic toc tic toc tic toc

and Im not really sure what you are saying. It could be interpreted many ways.

Ya know, those of you that have just spent that time downing us. We are plugging for GM, be it Buick or ------------, or Pontiac, or Chevy, or Cadillac. Thats why we are here in the first place. Others ? Well, hard to say why they are here. Maybe publicity people for Toyota, Honda, BMW, who knows? I have seen each and every member here that supports GM during these bash fests, agree with all the areas possible to mention, that improvement is needed or would be better. Yet at the same time we dont come here everyday to listen you other fellas bash GM non-stop. Then the best part it how we become bashed or called Ostrich, staunch loyalist, communist, socialist, you name it, we must endure it. And GOOD GOLLY, GO DANG IT, DONT YOU DARE STAND UP FOR GM. The only thing for us to do is sit and watch you bash GM for each and every little detail that suits your needs. Because if we do not sit and watch, but rather offer any resistance to the non stop bashing. We become the punchin' bag. the auto media is not bias toward any manufacture and their people media counterpart did not chase down Diana like blue tics in a full moon. <_<

We express our views of interiors on our experience, which is a natural thing to do... BTW. And you base your view on your experience....which is after all quite recent. DO we need to go back and reread the posts that have led to the sudden bashing of older cars or referenceing to them, to see that it was in responce to comments about - GM would be just fine if they had the rice interior, which was even more preposterous. Then we will also find the reference was from a creative aspect, nothing more. At this point in time, what does not impress you has little relevence. * is that print, inbetween some of those pictures, your very own commentary ?

Lord, how our resident rice boys cry when they find people actually like GMs and point out the bias BS that has led people to think they should not be caught dead in an American owned & manufactured car. As soon as the Japs began buying industries within our country and properties to place their industries on, it suddenly became alright to be a sell out because "its made in America so its A O K Incidently when Tommy Kendall and crew tested the GP against others in that segment it showed favorably against other sedans. Had the FASTEST track times and its FWD. The GTO was also placed against cars in its segment and showed favorably as well. I posted about this during the summer some time. I think a small handful of posters made comment. Unlike the GM bashing threads where they come out in numbers. GM has some stuff to straighten out but not nearly as much as the American population.

Good job and great post Z. I got you the first time, knew exactly what you were talkin bout. Balthazars first post was great, excellent points, as always ! Funny how this was going great until a few people disagreed. Then we all had to hear the lecture. Not many of the interiors posted that I would flip over. If they dont have wood I dont like them so the rest are.... uninteresting to me.The Bentley is my favorite, and I like the varity of Aston Martin interiors. Must be the Brit in me. I noticed right away, that while the Bentley still had a four spoke wheel, they put the damn spokes out of the way. I hate the 10:00/2:00 hand positions. I also dont like a spoke around 7:00 either. Thats my left elbow on armrest, hand at 7:00 position, get them damn spokes the hell out of my way. I want the center spokes flat where they meet the wheel also. None of these special finger catching gargoles, its a tool not and art exhibit. Two spokes are enough and if ya wanna be creative figure out how to make a one spoke wheel :lol:.....and GM would probably put that at 9:00 :rolleyes: The one Lexus interior is nice, Ive seen that before. I think I followed one of those ES 3 what ever the hell they are today, that was some pathatic piece of sheetmetal, let me tell ya. I love our old H/C body interiors. The newer 97 LSS had an excellent modern interior, crappy wheel (spoke positions) quality of the leather is great (great controls). Same goes for its Aurora and Regency brothern. then we come to the G2 Aurora. What can be said about that? Except it didnt help Olds one bit, so go figure ? So, being how some had to lecture about some kind of misinterpretation of looking within. I wont bother lectureing about how GM does not need the interiors from other vehicals in their vehicals. They must look from within and put more effort into it. Because we know they have built some nice creative interiors.

That is exactly how I felt when we went from the Rabbit into the Big 82 NYer followed by the 86 LeSabre. I used to look at that Rabbit and think, if something goes wrong I could loose both of them. My daughter was about 4 when we went to the large NYer. It was so nice not to be cramped up and worried about risk so much. That was around 95 and gas vs my economy at that time was a non issue. Now with todays economy and the oil inflation we simply have way to much of our monthly income going out just for work transport. Its kinda crazy actually, combine the one payment we do have, with insurance (ever inflating) and monthly gasoline its close to one weeks pay each per month. Somehow it doesnt sound like its going to do anything but get worse for us common folk. There is no cost of living increase that can keep up with the actual cost of living increases. Not with the health care industry taking the raise right off the top, immeadialty. Oh well, just a number.

I think buying stock would be kinda risky. What was it 280+/- billion in debt ? Loosing money to boot. Better be one hell of a plan. Are they going to bribe the media to stay off their back ? Are they going to convince the population that their cars really are not junk ? Ive tried and cant do it, on a GM site no less. I can see it now in 2008, MT - "This new GM BRK isnt too bad comming from a company thats Bankrupt." That'll boost sales. "sciguy" - Im not sure where else Buickman posted that short story but perhaps he posted it here as well because we all dont read each and every post. Perhaps you have something to add to the topic of the post ? Perhaps you have a story of your own you'd like to share, that relates to this topic ?