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    William Maley

    House GOP's Tax Plan Will Scrap Electric Vehicle Credit

      This will make EVs even a tougher sale

    One key selling point automakers have been using to move electric vehicles is the federal tax credit of up to $7,500. But a new tax cut bill being proposed by House Republicans could eliminate that credit.

    The bill announced today includes a provision of eliminating the credit after the 2017 tax year if the bill goes into law.

    The credits are important as it helps level the playing field between internal combustion engines and EVs. Currently, the credit will begin to phase out once an auto manufacturer once it sells 200,000 EVs or plug-in hybrids. Bloomberg reports that Tesla would be the first automaker to reach the limit, followed by GM and Nissan. If that tax credit is eliminated, automakers worry they would experience a plunge in sales.

    “The credits matter a lot. In states without EV mandates or incentives, you’ll see sales crater,” said Eric Noble, president of the CarLab.

    Bloomberg cites the example of Georgia which cut its $5,000 electric vehicle tax credit back in 2015. Sales tumbled from 1,400 to just fewer than 100.

    Automakers are spending a lot of money and time in lobbying to make sure the credit is renewed partly due to new mandates being placed by California and a number of other states saying a certain percentage of new cars sold have to EVs.

    "The potential elimination of the federal electric vehicle tax credit will impact the choices of prospective buyers and make the electric vehicle mandate in 10 states — about a third of the market — even more difficult to meet," said Gloria Bergquist, a spokeswoman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing various automakers such as GM and Toyota.

    Source: Bloomberg, Reuters

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    GOP needs to pull their heads out, idiots just do not get that climate change is real and ev auto's need to be the future for a cleaner city experience with less pollution to breath and noise to destroy the hearing.

    Glad to see that the Auto Companies are pushing to keep the tax credit in place. Very well worth it.

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    14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    GOP needs to pull their heads out, idiots just do not get that climate change is real and ev auto's need to be the future for a cleaner city experience with less pollution to breath and noise to destroy the hearing.

    Glad to see that the Auto Companies are pushing to keep the tax credit in place. Very well worth it.

    Agree.  Not to make it too political, but EV's are the future, they are cleaner and more quiet.  The technology will get there eventually where EV's are just as cheap to produce as gas cars, and when batteries are cheap, you'll see them take over.

    I would be in favor of the incentives staying, because they'll run out in a few years anyway.  If they cut the incentive, then I don't think it is the end of the world either, because some car makers are closing in on 200,000 sales anyway, and by 2023 the battery tech will even out the price and you won't need the credits anyway.

    I'd be more concerned about all the EPA cuts and removal of environmental protections.  

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    Interesting to learn how the credit works.

    • It's a literal credit on your federal taxes for the year you bought the eligible car. If you buy a Bolt in '17 (eligible for $7500) but you only owe $2500 in federal tax, instead you pay $0 and the other $5000 goes poof!
    • If you lease, the credit goes to the lease company, not you.

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    I disagree with the credit there's no reason for me to pay my earnings to the government so an early adapter can buy a new electric car. I can't afford to pay for my own new auto let alone pay for someone else's. Early adaptors are making the choice to buy an auto that is much more expensive and really is a luxury item at this point. I don't mind paying taxes for my own share of the government but I draw the line at paying for my neighbors car and not being able to make enough money to pay for a newer used auto for my own family.

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    11 minutes ago, 67impss said:

    I disagree with the credit there's no reason for me to pay my earnings to the government so an early adapter can buy a new electric car. I can't afford to pay for my own new auto let alone pay for someone else's. Early adaptors are making the choice to buy an auto that is much more expensive and really is a luxury item at this point. I don't mind paying taxes for my own share of the government but I draw the line at paying for my neighbors car and not being able to make enough money to pay for a newer used auto for my own family.

    So then how do you feel about the so called 40+ billion given to the oil companies to offset their R&D when ExxonMobil made 100 Billion profit and paid their CEO hundreds of Millions. Should we not be cutting off that wasted tax dollars then as well as the billions paid to ethanol companies, CNG companies or Bio-Diesel?

    Healthy change usually comes by the gov supporting early tech that will lead to a better future for us all.

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    Maybe that's the amount that they need to be able to meet the regulations that the government likes to throw at the energy corporations. 

    See dfelt I to can put you on the defense, I read the articles and posts and I am almost always able to figure out who's going to attack whom. Drew used to police this stuff better but I understand that work and life in general take precedence over the internet. I have been on this board since before Avanti something sold it to Drew and have seen all of the bickering through the years,we used to have discussions with each other but now just attack each other.

    I'd move on to another board but I have come to like a lot of you guys and still value quite a few of their opinions even if it conflicts with mine. So maybe I don't share much for a while and just lurk till the climate changes and it's a bit friendlier. We have lost so many good minds because of the bickering already. (Off my soapbox) back to lurking, good night guys.

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    10 hours ago, dfelt said:

    GOP needs to pull their heads out, idiots just do not get that climate change is real and ev auto's need to be the future for a cleaner city experience with less pollution to breath and noise to destroy the hearing.

    Glad to see that the Auto Companies are pushing to keep the tax credit in place. Very well worth it.

    But  do the Auto Companies have as powerful a lobby as the Oil Companies. Oil companies just won't see their livelihood die without a fight.  I'm surprised gas isn't down to $1.50 right now.. Even more to the point is that they need to be transitioning over to something else.. as it is estimated that the earth has enough oil left for about 50 more years at current production levels. Electric.. or something else.. is the way of the future

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    6 hours ago, 67impss said:

    Maybe that's the amount that they need to be able to meet the regulations that the government likes to throw at the energy corporations. 

    See dfelt I to can put you on the defense, I read the articles and posts and I am almost always able to figure out who's going to attack whom. Drew used to police this stuff better but I understand that work and life in general take precedence over the internet. I have been on this board since before Avanti something sold it to Drew and have seen all of the bickering through the years,we used to have discussions with each other but now just attack each other.

    I'd move on to another board but I have come to like a lot of you guys and still value quite a few of their opinions even if it conflicts with mine. So maybe I don't share much for a while and just lurk till the climate changes and it's a bit friendlier. We have lost so many good minds because of the bickering already. (Off my soapbox) back to lurking, good night guys.

    The industry got those regulations because the industry was acting badly.  Corporations will poison your kids for a 5 cent jump in share price if they could get away with it. It is much better to be proactive with regulations than reactive with spill cleanup.

    That said, at least these tax credits are helping the end consumers directly instead of going to multi-billion dollar corporations. 

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    7 hours ago, 67impss said:

    Maybe that's the amount that they need to be able to meet the regulations that the government likes to throw at the energy corporations. 

    See dfelt I to can put you on the defense, I read the articles and posts and I am almost always able to figure out who's going to attack whom. Drew used to police this stuff better but I understand that work and life in general take precedence over the internet. I have been on this board since before Avanti something sold it to Drew and have seen all of the bickering through the years,we used to have discussions with each other but now just attack each other.

    I'd move on to another board but I have come to like a lot of you guys and still value quite a few of their opinions even if it conflicts with mine. So maybe I don't share much for a while and just lurk till the climate changes and it's a bit friendlier. We have lost so many good minds because of the bickering already. (Off my soapbox) back to lurking, good night guys.

    I am sorry that you feel I attacked you as my only point was to do just what I did and that is to point out the big waste of tax dollars going to very profitable companies that do not need it and to point out what we have gained by agencies such as Nasa that has brought many amazing products to the markets by having the government pay for the R&D and support the change over to a better way.

    I am very glad your still here and at least lurk with the occasional comment, I too remember the days of the old owner before Drew. It was good then and good now, we are just more vocal and willing to point out our beliefs and thoughts on this amazing auto industry.

    Even Ocnblu comments / attacks on EV's allow for a discourse of discussion and dispelling with misconceptions or understandings of a product segment in the auto industry. After all he once was very vocal about his dislike of the Aluminum F150 and lately has been thinking of an F150 FX4. 

    We can all change and I understand change is harder for some than others. Yet I truly believe in my heart we all want a better life, a cleaner place to live and less cost out of pocket.

    Make it a Great Day 67impss!  :metal: 

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    Come on folks! How else is our wonderful government going to protect our old dinosaur industries? Eliminate those pesky EV feeebies while doling out a million times that to subsidize the old guard industries. 

     

    Oh, and our government is just a laughing stock at this point. 

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    Well, if EV's are all they're talked up to be then people will still buy them, right? 

    I also don't think it's a huge issue. Like it's already been said, Tesla, GM, and Nissan are coming up on their 200,000 anyway. 

    What's more important? Letting consumers potentially save $7500 on something that they probably don't need to be buying or spending the $7500 somewhere else or just reducing debt? 

    FWIW, as far as I know, nobody here has even taken advantage of the credit anyway.. Nobody is on the verge of it(or at least spoken out about it). 

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    24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Well, if EV's are all they're talked up to be then people will still buy them, right? 

    I also don't think it's a huge issue. Like it's already been said, Tesla, GM, and Nissan are coming up on their 200,000 anyway. 

    What's more important? Letting consumers potentially save $7500 on something that they probably don't need to be buying or spending the $7500 somewhere else or just reducing debt? 

    FWIW, as far as I know, nobody here has even taken advantage of the credit anyway.. Nobody is on the verge of it(or at least spoken out about it). 

    Changing a technology like this requires investment.  There won't be chargers without EV demand and there won't be EV demand without chargers. It's a chicken and egg problem. Also, until any of these things hits large scale, there won't be economies of scale and the price won't come down. The Federal government started the EV credits to help prime the pump and lower costs until the price comes down. 

    Lest we forget, the government paid for a whole bunch of paved roads 100 years ago to enable vehicle traffic. Prior to that, roads between cities were largely dirt paths with mud axel deep. It wasn't "The Market" that paved those roads. 

     

     

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    7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The Federal government started the EV credits to help prime the pump and lower costs until the price comes down. 

    And they have primed the pump... And according to ppl here EVs can be driven everywhere so there's already enough infrastructure so why do they need to keep priming a pump that's already primed? Or I guess, how much longer should they do this? 

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    I am all for taking any subsidies away from oil and gas companies, they will find a way to make a profit.  I wouldn't subsidize any corporation for that matter, they can sink or swim on their own.  

    I like that there is an EV tax credit, but it is going to expire anyway, so if they take it away then it is only speeding up the process. 

    If we all had vertical take off drones for travel we wouldn't need roads.  Then the Government wouldn't have to spend money paving them.   But I have always said if you want to inspire EV sales, raise the gas tax.

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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    And they have primed the pump... And according to ppl here EVs can be driven everywhere so there's already enough infrastructure so why do they need to keep priming a pump that's already primed? Or I guess, how much longer should they do this? 

    No, there is still not enough infrastructure to start widespread adoption yet. 

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    Well I would have been convinced otherwise according to members' talk. How often to people need to drive more than 230 miles in a day? Charge at home and we don't even need an infrastructure. 

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    I am all for taking any subsidies away from oil and gas companies, they will find a way to make a profit.  I wouldn't subsidize any corporation for that matter, they can sink or swim on their own.  

    I like that there is an EV tax credit, but it is going to expire anyway, so if they take it away then it is only speeding up the process. 

    If we all had vertical take off drones for travel we wouldn't need roads.  Then the Government wouldn't have to spend money paving them.   But I have always said if you want to inspire EV sales, raise the gas tax.

    I drove from Pittsburgh to NY to Pittsburgh earlier this week.  It shouldn't be surprising to me that people are idiots on the road, but on the first leg of that trip I wanted to nuke the whole east coast.   I can't imagine the idiots who can barely operate a Corolla operating a flying drone car... 

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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    And they have primed the pump... And according to ppl here EVs can be driven everywhere so there's already enough infrastructure so why do they need to keep priming a pump that's already primed? Or I guess, how much longer should they do this? 

    You do realize that the original credit would expire after 200,000 by each manufacturer right? It was going away eventually but the GOP has to pay back their oil masters somehow. 

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    20 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Well I would have been convinced otherwise according to members' talk. How often to people need to drive more than 230 miles in a day? Charge at home and we don't even need an infrastructure. 

    I'm not sure if you're intentionally trolling or are actually missing the nuance of what I said. Infrastructure is more than just charging stations, though yes, those also need to increase. There is also the infrastructure in lithium mines, battery construction, electric motor construction.   GM is geared up today to build millions of 4-cylinder engines world wide... but they'll only build maybe a hundred thousand electric motors for EVs this year. (Bolt, Volt, CT6 PHEV, eAssist).  It's not easy to quickly turn an engine manufacturing plant into a motor manufacturing plant. 

    The subsidies need to continue in order to make the technology available to a wider audience.  That wider audience will drive demand for infrastructure higher.  The pump still needs to be primed for a while. 

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    27 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Well I would have been convinced otherwise according to members' talk. How often to people need to drive more than 230 miles in a day? Charge at home and we don't even need an infrastructure. 

    And trolling/fallacy argument of the day goes to...

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    1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

    You do realize that the original credit would expire after 200,000 by each manufacturer right? It was going away eventually but the GOP has to pay back their oil masters somehow. 

    I absolutely know that, that's why I said that already. :thumbsup:

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I'm not sure if you're intentionally trolling or are actually missing the nuance of what I said. Infrastructure is more than just charging stations, though yes, those also need to increase. There is also the infrastructure in lithium mines, battery construction, electric motor construction.   GM is geared up today to build millions of 4-cylinder engines world wide... but they'll only build maybe a hundred thousand electric motors for EVs this year. (Bolt, Volt, CT6 PHEV, eAssist).  It's not easy to quickly turn an engine manufacturing plant into a motor manufacturing plant. 

    The subsidies need to continue in order to make the technology available to a wider audience.  That wider audience will drive demand for infrastructure higher.  The pump still needs to be primed for a while. 

    It's not trolling at all. That's what has been proven to me by yourself and dfelt... on multiple occasions. 

    All of this superior technology should sell itself. It isn't like they haven't been in the market for awhile now. I don't think it is a NECESSITY for the tax credit. It would be nice but I don't think this is that big of an issue. 

    Edited by ccap41
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      WARREN, Mich. – Starting today, General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) is gathering hundreds of employees, dealers, investors, analysts, media and policymakers to share details of its strategy to grow the company’s electric vehicle (EV) sales quickly, efficiently and profitably.
      “Our team accepted the challenge to transform product development at GM and position our company for an all-electric future,” said Mary Barra, GM chairman and CEO. “What we have done is build a multi-brand, multi-segment EV strategy with economies of scale that rival our full-size truck business with much less complexity and even more flexibility.”
      The heart of GM’s strategy is a modular propulsion system and a highly flexible, third-generation global EV platform powered by proprietary Ultium batteries. They will allow the company to compete for nearly every customer in the market today, whether they are looking for affordable transportation, a luxury experience, work trucks or a high-performance machine.
      “Thousands of GM scientists, engineers and designers are working to execute an historic reinvention of the company,” said GM President Mark Reuss. “They are on the cusp of delivering a profitable EV business that can satisfy millions of customers.”
      Ultium Batteries and Propulsion System Highlights
      GM’s new Ultium batteries are unique in the industry because the large-format, pouch-style cells can be stacked vertically or horizontally inside the battery pack. This allows engineers to optimize battery energy storage and layout for each vehicle design. Ultium energy options range from 50 to 200 kWh, which could enable a GM-estimated range up to 400 miles or more on a full charge with 0 to 60 mph acceleration as low as 3 seconds. Motors designed in-house will support front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, all-wheel drive and performance all-wheel drive applications. Ultium-powered EVs are designed for Level 2 and DC fast charging. Most will have 400-volt battery packs and up to 200 kW fast-charging capability while our truck platform will have 800-volt battery packs and 350 kW fast-charging capability. GM’s flexible, modular approach to EV development will drive significant economies of scale and create new revenue opportunities, including: 
      Continuous Improvement in Battery Costs: GM’s joint venture with LG Chem will drive battery cell costs below $100/kWh. The cells use a proprietary low cobalt chemistry and ongoing technological and manufacturing breakthroughs will drive costs even lower. Flexibility: GM’s all-new global platform is flexible enough to build a wide range of trucks, SUVs, crossovers, cars and commercial vehicles with outstanding design, performance, packaging, range and affordability. Capital Efficiency: GM can spend less capital to scale its EV business because it is able to leverage existing property, including land, buildings, tools and production equipment such as body shops and paint shops. Complexity Reduction: The vehicle and propulsion systems were designed together to minimize complexity and part counts beyond today’s EVs, which are less complex than conventional vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. For example, GM plans 19 different battery and drive unit configurations initially, compared with 550 internal combustion powertrain combinations available today. Rising Customer Acceptance: Third-party forecasters expect U.S. EV volumes to more than double from 2025 to 2030 to about 3 million units on average. GM believes volumes could be materially higher as more EVs are launched in popular segments, charging networks grow and the total cost of ownership to consumers continues to fall. New Sources of Revenue: By vertically integrating the manufacture of battery cells, the company can reach beyond its own fleet and license technology to others. The first generation of GM’s future EV program will be profitable. The initial programs will pave the way for further accretive growth. GM’s technology can be scaled to meet customer demand much higher than the more than 1 million global sales the company expects mid-decade.
      Upcoming Launches and Reveals
      Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick will all be launching new EVs starting this year. The next new Chevrolet EV will be a new version of the Bolt EV, launching in late 2020, followed by the 2022 Bolt EUV, launching Summer 2021. The Bolt EUV will be the first vehicle outside of the Cadillac brand to feature Super Cruise, the industry's first true hands-free driving technology for the highway, which GM will expand to 22 vehicles by 2023, including 10 by next year.
      The Cruise Origin, a self-driving, electric shared vehicle, shown to the public in January 2020 in San Francisco, was the first product revealed using GM’s third generation EV platform and Ultium batteries. Next will be the Cadillac Lyriq luxury SUV in April. Details about its launch will be shared then. The reveal of the Ultium-powered GMC HUMMER EV will follow on May 20. Production is expected to begin in Fall 2021 at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, GM’s first assembly plant 100 percent dedicated to EV production.
    • By Drew Dowdell
      General Motors and LG Chem are joining forces to invest $2.3 billion in a new battery plant near its old Lordstown Assembly complex in Lordstown, Ohio.  The deal is a 50/50 partnership between GM and LG Chem and will create 1,100 jobs in the area. 
      Construction of the plant will begin mid-2020 at a greenfield former manufacturing site. The employees will work for the joint-venture and will not be direct GM employees. Initially, the plant will solely supply batteries for GM vehicles, though with a maximum capacity of 30 gigawatt-hours annually, the company could expand to supply other manufacturers as well.
      GM and LG Chem are forming this joint venture in an attempt to bring down the unit cost of batteries for future vehicles. The plant's capacity, once completed, will be among the largest in the world. 
      General Motors has said it wants to introduce 20 electric vehicles globally by 2023. 
    • By Drew Dowdell
      General Motors and LG Chem are joining forces to invest $2.3 billion in a new battery plant near its old Lordstown Assembly complex in Lordstown, Ohio.  The deal is a 50/50 partnership between GM and LG Chem and will create 1,100 jobs in the area. 
      Construction of the plant will begin mid-2020 at a greenfield former manufacturing site. The employees will work for the joint-venture and will not be direct GM employees. Initially, the plant will solely supply batteries for GM vehicles, though with a maximum capacity of 30 gigawatt-hours annually, the company could expand to supply other manufacturers as well.
      GM and LG Chem are forming this joint venture in an attempt to bring down the unit cost of batteries for future vehicles. The plant's capacity, once completed, will be among the largest in the world. 
      General Motors has said it wants to introduce 20 electric vehicles globally by 2023. 

      View full article
    • By Drew Dowdell
      As part of General Motors' tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers, there is a planned $3 billion investment into the Detroit-Hamtramck plant to make electric trucks, SUVs, and vans. The program, called BT1 is part of a larger $7.7 billion investment in GM's plants over the next four years. 
      The BT1 program includes an electric truck for GMC and an electric SUV for Cadillac for the 2023 model year. But before that happens, in 2021 a low volume BT1 pickup will start production under a different brand while a performance truck follows in 2022, and then an electric SUV in 2023.  Rumor has it that these low volume BT1 vehicles could be sold under the Hummer brand, not used since 2010, but that decision has not been finalized.
      If GM did bring the Hummer brand back as an EV brand, it would have instant name brand recognition and a leg up on rival startup Rivian who has a truck due out in 2020. GM would not need to spend as much money to market the brand.
      The vehicles on the new BT1 platform would use a "skateboard" architecture that bundles the batteries and electric motor together. The architecture is highly flexible allowing GM to build vehicles in front, rear, or all-wheel drive configurations. 

      View full article
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