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    Rumorpile: What's In the Pipeline for Buick


    • Looking Into Buick's Crystal Ball

    We know the latest product that Buick dealers will be getting in the near future is the Cascada convertible starting sometime early next year. But what comes after that? Automotive News has done some sleuthing and has come up with possible timeline of what to expect from 2016 to 2019.

     

    2016

    • First up is a redesign of the Buick Verano that will likely appear in the second half of 2016. The model is expected to grow in length and interior size. Either a 1.4T or 1.5T will be the base engine, while a new version of the 2.0T will be available.
    • Next is the LaCrosse which will get a full redesign that will go on sale next fall. Spy shots show the model grow in size. The new LaCrosse will be based on the new Chevrolet Malibu. Four-cylinders engines are being debated for the powertrain, along with a hybrid.
    • The long-awaited Envision crossover will be coming in the fall.
    • Finishing up 2016 is a refresh of the Encore subcompact crossover. Interior updates are also planned.


    2017

    • The second-generation Regal will go into production sometime in 2017. The model will grow in size to give some space between it and the Verano. A 1.5T is expected to be the base engine, followed by the 2.0T. In the cards is a diesel engine and a wagon.
    • Midyear will see the second-generation Enclave. The new model will use the new, lighter platform that will underpin the Chevrolet Traverse.


    2018

    • We know that it has been rumored that Buick will be getting the Opel Adam, but not until the second-generation model. Automotive News says it could happen in 2018 or sometime thereafter.


    2019

    • A redesign of the Encore is expected to happen.


    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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    This seems like a logical line of what will happen. I wonder what concept surprises they will have in store for us at the auto shows coming up.

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    About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

     

    My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

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    Yeah, the article worded it wrong. The Lacrosse is simply going on the Malibu's new chassis, which is essentially a re-engineered Impala/XTS chassis for higher strength, and much lower weight. The Lacrosse will be full size like the Impala/XTS but will shave 200-300 lbs.

    Edited by cp-the-nerd
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    I was hoping the next gen Regal was going RWD based and sized between the Cadillac ATS and CTS. That way they could do a coupe version and a new Grand National version of that using the 3.6 Turbo V6 from the ATS V for power! Then the ATS V could get the upcoming Cadillac exclusive 4.5L 500HP Turbo V8!----Oh well!:(

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    I was hoping the next gen Regal was going RWD based and sized between the Cadillac ATS and CTS. That way they could do a coupe version and a new Grand National version of that using the 3.6 Turbo V6 from the ATS V for power! Then the ATS V could get the upcoming Cadillac exclusive 4.5L 500HP Turbo V8!----Oh well! :(

    Never give up hope, Nothing says they still could not do a new Grand National using the Camaro platform.

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    I think Malibu, Impala, LaCrosse, and Regal will all be on the same platform.  Hopefully the XTS is dead at the end of this cycle.  I don't think they'll do a Grand National, because GM doesn't have 40% market share like back in the 80s.  So I suspect they won't want in house competition for the Camaro or ATS.   Plus I think a GNX would be low volume, and the cost to get it crash tested and emissions certified, etc probably makes it not worth it.  It would be nice for them to do a Riviera coupe, they could even be off the next generation Epsilon platform, and share powertrain with the Regal or LaCrosse.

    Edited by smk4565
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    About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

     

    My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

     I imagine that architecture will be going away. 

    There is supposedly another SUV coming as well. 

    I'm surprised Verano is still that far off. I expected it sooner.  The current one is still nice, but getting a tit bit dated

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    About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

     

    My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

    Aside from the industry-wide trend in car growth, it would be he only logical way for them to insert the Adam into the lineup without having the Regal/Verano size issues they currently have.

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    About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

     

    My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

    Aside from the industry-wide trend in car growth, it would be he only logical way for them to insert the Adam into the lineup without having the Regal/Verano size issues they currently have.

     

     

    How so? The Adam is a mini car, the size of the Spark.

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    I would like to see a Grand National....but not as you think...

    My idea of the Grand National would be based on the next Regal...TTV6 with AWD...For sure the next Insignia would be getting an OPC version...well, my Grand National would be based on the OPC...with a tad more bite.

    I dont want a RWD Grand National...

    1. Buick is no longer where it was in the 1960s...nor the 1980s...and thank goodness...no where near it was in the 2000s....which means that Buick's renaissance is made with Buick's new image...therefore a new Grand National also deserves a new formula.

    2. A Regal hasnt been RWD in over 20 years...a FWD W-Body Regal had ups...and then it had its downs...bad enough downs that they muddled the name Regal and the name Century...bad enough downs that Buick stupidly  merge the two into one....bad enough downs where enough years went on by that NECESSITATED Buick to just merge the two COMPLETELY together and rename the two into one FWD W-Body Lacrosse...But....with a surprise renaissance...Buick gave us back a very European and competent Regal...and so a Regal T-Type, Grand National and maybe a GNX top dog....deserve a brand new identity too...

    3. Leave Cadillac with RWD/AWD TTV6 performance...Buick can handle all the FWD/AWD performance...

     

    Next up...Id like to see an Avenir type Park Avenue with a 4 door coupe version called Riviera...just like how Mercedes does an E Class and CLS...

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    About the growth in size:  Car size growth has happened all over the automotive landscape for decades.

     

    My concern is the new LaCrosse.  The new LaX is based on the new Malibu?!  Why not the XTS/Impala instead?

    Aside from the industry-wide trend in car growth, it would be he only logical way for them to insert the Adam into the lineup without having the Regal/Verano size issues they currently have.

     

    How so? The Adam is a mini car, the size of the Spark.

    I'm fairly sure the next-gen one won't be.

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    Yeah, the article worded it wrong. The Lacrosse is simply going on the Malibu's new chassis, which is essentially a re-engineered Impala/XTS chassis for higher strength, and much lower weight. The Lacrosse will be full size like the Impala/XTS but will shave 200-300 lbs.

     

    Oh thank goodness for that.  I have never understood why the XTS was not a Buick in the first place.  Less weight is always a good thing. 

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    Yeah, the article worded it wrong. The Lacrosse is simply going on the Malibu's new chassis, which is essentially a re-engineered Impala/XTS chassis for higher strength, and much lower weight. The Lacrosse will be full size like the Impala/XTS but will shave 200-300 lbs.

     

    Oh thank goodness for that.  I have never understood why the XTS was not a Buick in the first place.  Less weight is always a good thing. 

     

    Because Cadillac needed a bridge gap car.

    You know...traditional Cadillac buyers needed to go somewhere...so...why throw them out to the curb?

    And traditional Cadillac buyers didnt necessarily mean they would automatically go to Buick....now that the Cadillac  CT6 has arrived...traditional buyers of Cadillac actually have a choice with the CT6...and now that Buick has fixed its image...traditional Cadillac buyers that dont want a RWD car...might actually consider a Buick...now that Buick is slowly filling the premium class of luxury that Cadillac had....because lets face it...Cadillac was not top tier luxury 5 years ago, Cadillac was really premium and Buick was not really premium...Buick was more or less...mainstream...like a Chevy...

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    Buick can't go really high up market with sedans or coupes with $50k+ Aviners or Rivieras, etc.  Cadillac struggles to sell 2,000 CTS a month at that price, a Buick would sell worse, and a large car would sell worse than a mid-size.  $25-45,000 is the Buick sweetspot.

     

    What I'd do, as I put in another thread is call the next Verano the Regal, which would be 185 inches long, 1.5 liter and 2.0 liter turbo 4 engines.  Optional all wheel drive.  Priced at $24k base so it is well above the Cruze, but still cheaper than the current Regal that doesn't sell well.  The Envision would share chassis, engines, etc with this Regal.

     

    The next Malibu is to be 193 inches long, perfect size for the LaCrosse and you could price it around $30k, undercutting the Azera, Maxima and Cadenza which are also about 193 inches long, and still priced well enough above the Malibu.  2.0T standard here, I'd V6 as well, all wheel drive option.

     

    Sedan #3 is the Park Avenue, which would be 201 inches long like an Impala or XTS is now.  This you could price around $38k, a $10k premium over a base Impala.  V6 and all wheel drive, maybe a turbo 4/hybrid option also.  This would compete with ES350 and MKZ, although be larger than those cars, and help fill the void left by the XTS.

     

    Then you have the Cascada convertible on the Delta platform, and I would do a Riviera priced about $34k with very limited options because above $40k there are too many luxury coupes to pick from, including ATS, so you want to stay away from that.  Riviera should be mid-size, a little larger than Camaro, luxury focused, maybe the 3.6 V6 is the stand alone engine, because this is a low volume car I'd think, and probably older buyers who would want a V6 over a turbo 4.

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    Well we are in a transitional time for Cadillac and Buick.

     

    The listing is pretty much how it is going to work.

    FWD and AWD is mostly going to make up most of the line up in cars and CUV models. The Lacrosse did not go to the Impala and XTS because that one is going to die. It is already on the enlarges Lacrosse platform as it is. The key it to cut mass and not cut into profits and that is why they chose the new Malibu platform. It will be a larger car but will see weight savings and profit protected.

    As Cadillac moves up the Buicks will get an Omega. I expect a sedan and coupe. Now even if it is called a Grand National for what ever reason it will not be a black retro muscle car. They would be better off using a new name as it will be more like a Euro GT coupe. These cars will get the TT V6 as Cadillac moves to their own engines. Buick will get more use because of this.

    Also Buicks will fill the Cadillac price range. This is one of the reasons they can not just under price Cadillac's on a whim. They have set their path and they have to stick to it for the whole program to work. The key now is to take Cadillac to the place they will be worth the cost. Johann has made it clear that they have good cars now but not good enough. To be the best in class you must build the best to where no one can say different. That is their target and that is why the new cars got kicked down the road now that the new money arrived.

     

    Buick is only in the first stage of rebuilding and like Chevy and Cadillac it will take two or three generations to get them to where they need to be.

     

    Just re bodying a Camaro is not going to fix Buick they have to take an Alpha or Omega and make it their own. Cadillac has to move away from Buick just as Buick needs to move away from Chevy. Cars like the new models and the second gen Adam will help do this.

     

    Buick moving up also helps Chevy as they do not have to over price cars like ford has done with the Fusion and Taurus. Lets face it a $40K plus AWD Fusion is a bit much just as a SVO Taurus nearing $50K. GM can lay these more premium models on Buick and give people a car that is a step up over the Value brand. You will get a whole new brand for your money vs. a fancy version of the value model. I think Ford will miss Mercury as they let them wither on the vine. Mercury failed do to neglect not the concept of having a middle brand.
     

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    I am not sure an Omega car for Buick is a good idea.  I think the top Buick sedan should have a price starting in the high $30s.  And how many cars does Buick need, if you have Verano-Regal-LaCrosse as a 3 sedan line up, plus a Cascada convertible.  Unless they could do a Riviera coupe on Omega and keep that priced at $40k.  But then you have a Lincoln Mark VIII type large coupe, and that didn't sell 20 years ago back when cars sold, now people want crossovers.  I don't think Buick needs a 4 sedan line up, I see Buick versions of the Cruze-Malibu-Impala as more reasonable, a sedan smaller than the Cruze I don't think has a place at Buick, plus they have the Encore which is sub-compact.

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    Re. hyperV6: I don't think Buick needs to rebuild, at least not in the same way Cadillac currently is. Just keep updating the product, give it good differentiation in size, and get the odd stroke of luck/genius with innovation (hello, Encore!).

    And an Omega coupe. Because of course Omega coupe.

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    Re. hyperV6: I don't think Buick needs to rebuild, at least not in the same way Cadillac currently is. Just keep updating the product, give it good differentiation in size, and get the odd stroke of luck/genius with innovation (hello, Encore!).

    And an Omega coupe. Because of course Omega coupe.

    Yup....I agree. And nothing wrong with riding on somebody else's coat tails either....(hello  Adam...with the whole Fiat 500 thing) while doing that whole Adam thing...forging and strengthening the whole "this aint your father's Buick campaign they got going on...along with the Cascada...and let me say that the Cascada...is no way lookin' like a traditional American car....let alone a Buick.  And that is why, for me, a Grand National need not be a RWD muscle car, if fact, I prefer that it wasnt.

     Next generation Opel Insignia OPC/Vauxhaul Insignia VXR  is what I want the Grand National to be....possibly with a tad more horsepower bite than its German/English counterparts...

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    SMK you need to start playing with the reality blocks.

    #1 The Omega needs to be used for more than the CT6 and 8

    #2 The Avenir was well reaccepted and would make a nice full size addition with a TT V6 leaving the V8 to Cadillac.

     

    #3 How in the hell do you think you will get a Omega Riviera at $40K Coupes are a hard sell and even a Malibu is nearing $40k today. You will not get much Riv for $40K

     

    A 4 model line up would do well and help leverage out the Omega much better. Cadillac is going to a place where few can afford to buy and if you do not offer something below it people will go else where. The Avenir was too close to production to ignore. With the CT6 coming this year I would not be surprised to see a production Avenir next year.

    The Encore has been a surprise and the Verano is a nice option for those who want more in a small car since so few are offered. It would be nice if they moved the engines away from the Cruze a little more. You pay more you should get more.

     

    The Verano, Regal, Lacrosse and Avenir will make a good line up and an Omega Coupe shared with Cadillac would make a nice Riv starting at $50K by the time it would reach market in 2018-19. Offer it in a GS model with TT V6 and AWD.  That would make a very good GT Car for the money and not step on the Camaro.


    El it would not be a complete rebuild but a revamp of the present models. Lets face it they are all old and all need the new platforms. GM has done well but we do not need to repeat history with the never dying W body. It was a good car but it did stay too long due to the lack of money.

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    Suppose Buick makes an Avenir with a twin turbo V6, what would that cost $55-60,000?   Let's say they price it like an Equus or K900, which have 430 hp V8s and a lot of equipment, and yet we see those sell less than 3,000 units per year.  Not a lot of volume there.  Then what happens to the CT6 if there is a Buick with the same chassis, same size, and a 400 hp engine for less than the 265 hp engine CT6, talk about stepping on toes.

     

    The LaCrosse is supposed to grow in size too, it could be similar size to an Avenir.  You can use RWD and more luxury and power as the differentiater, but I'd see that car would have to be priced more like a Genesis or top end Chrysler 300.  Maybe they can have room for the current LaCrosse to go up $2,000 in price and still get the Park Avenir in around $40-50k segment.  That could be a solid product, probably not a lot of volume in the USA, but they'd have China sales.

     

    I think a mid-size Riviera could easily be priced around $40k (regardless of platform they choose) and this would be priced in line with the A5, RC350, 4-series, and Infiniti Q60 or whatever the G37 is now.  Granted those are all a bit smaller and sporty, the Regal could offer interior space and a quiet, more comfortable ride.  Even at $40-45k you are asking buyers to pass on a Lexus, Infiniti, Audi and BMW and pick a Buick that is a tough sell as it is, maybe doable if it looks great and is mid-size compared to the competition's small size.

     

    To price a Riviera in the $50-60k range is suicide.  One coupe has a base price in that range and it is the E-class, the rest all gave up.  Even being the only mid-size luxury 2-door on market, the E Coupe isn't a huge seller.  So you think the Buick Riviera can challenge the E-class and buyers are going to spend $60k on a Buick coupe?  Never going to happen, it would sell worse than the Cadillac ELR.

     

    Let's remember the Cadillac sedan sales are weak, and their sedans have base prices at $33k, $44k, and $44k.  Hard to say Cadillac will rapidly move up market when they can't get sales where they are, and if Cadillac can't get big volume at those prices, how does Buick do it?

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    Lets put to truth and reality and not a lot of suppose and what ifs.

    The Buick would be $55-60K realistically. It would be priced just in and around the Equus. The V8 there is not going to live for ever and the TT V8 will have more than enough power to deal with the V8. You say 3,000 units and just what is that based on. It could easily 30,000 units too.

    What happens to the CT6? little as it will have so much more technology and at the price frame it is in the car will sell in lower volumes but yet remain profitable. The new Hybrid will be for once the real deal and the DOHC V8 should also set it apart. The CT6 will offer things Buick will have years from now after the Cadillac moves on.

    The Lacrosse is still going to be smaller and FWD.AWD based with only a Turbo 4 and we are not even sure it will have a V6 yet.

    If you want RWD and any real technology and luxury the only way you could do it for 40K is to make it a Coupe on the Verano. Get real here. You could do a Coupe Omega or even Alpha for 50-55. Make it any lower you will not really have a Riv. Look around and real luxury and entry luxury start at $40K for FWD and get higher up as you add AWD and RWD. Hell a AWD Fusion is $40,000 plus sticker now.

    Cadillac sale may be lower than expected but they are still making money at the higher price point. In the future it has been clearly explained they are not expected to be a volume brand anymore but a lower more exclusive brand that takes real means to buy. No more Faux Rich. You either have it or you are buying a Buick. The key here is you really will need money to buy one and not just pretend you are rich on a cheap lease deal.

    I have Johans e mail address and he answers it. May be he could explain it to you again.

    In this day and aged of $35K Malibu's $45K Camaros and Impalas Buick has to up their game with better cars and fill the segment Cadillac has been in. Cadillac is just now starting on the real effort to make cars that are suited for the price range they are targeting. Johan just took the job last July and we will not see the full results of his efforts for a little longer. When he stated the CT6 was not the flag ship but a new car would take that place that sent a real signal. He basically said the CT6 which will be a good car is not good enough and we will see better. We will get real Cadillac engines that are not compromised by low budgets and we will not see GM argue with them over the price of a Door handle as Mark Ruess had to do with the CT6. Yes GM jumped on mark because it was a few more buck than they wanted to spend on their flagship? This is why they are going to NYC.

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    If Cadillac can do an Alpha coupe for $40k, I am pretty sure Buick can.  The ATS starts at $33,000, even a near loaded ATS is around $50k.   And if you do a Riviera for $45-50k, I still don't see people buying that over an Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Mercedes, Audi or BMW.  Because all those luxury brands can make a coupe for $40,000.   This is the same reason the Equus and K900 don't sell, they aren't from a luxury brand.  Very few will buy a Hyundai when you can get a Lexus or Mercedes at the same price.

     

    Cadillac hasn't made this pricing move up market yet either, the CTS is priced below the 3 Germans, the Jaguar XF, Lexus GS and Infiniti Q70.  The ATS is priced below the A4, C-class, IS, and probably Jaguar XE.  So Cadillac is playing to the lower end of the price spectrum of the luxury market already.  Moving to equal the others doesn't really create all that much more room for Buick, a few thousand dollars maybe.  Cadillac isn't going to some super high end pricing like where Porsche is.

     

    As far as profitability goes, GM just released their 2nd quarter numbers.

    2.4 million vehicles sold, $1.1 billion in net profit.   That is $458 per unit.  We know GM makes money on pickups, they are probably losing money on their sedan lineup with those numbers.

     

    Daimler by comparison, 714,800 units sold, $2.4 billion in profit, or $3,637 per unit.  (those include their commercial trucks also)

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