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    William Maley

    Spying: Cadillac CTS

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    William Maley

    Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

    February 15, 2012

    Cadillac is in the process of revamping the sedan lineup. So far, the brand has shown the new XTS and ATS. The only one that hasn't been touched is the CTS, until now.

    Today, the first spy shots of the new CTS were caught in the Northern Territories of Canada. Wearing the codename of A1LL, the next-generation CTS will ride on an extended version of the ATS’ Alpha platform to compete with the BMW 5-Series, Mercedes E-Class, and Audi A6.

    Cadillac's Art & Science design language will continue on the next CTS with a sharp C-pillar, angular exhaust cutouts, and a front end likely having some resemblance to the ATS.

    But we're not sure this is the Alpha version of the CTS that everyone is reporting. To our eyes, this looks mid-cycle refresh of the current CTS. Which means that it's still using Sigma.

    The next CTS is due out sometime in late 2013 as a 2014 model. Hopefully before then, we find out what the CTS is riding on.

    Source: Left Lane News

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    Way too early to make any judgement based on these pictures. But I am happy they are working on the new version.

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    I'd assume that out of the need to reduce complexity it'd make sense to move to Alpha real quick, no? So why stick with Sigma? :-/

    Edited by ZL-1

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    The CTS is moving to a very similar 5 series size. That will make it fall in line with the other cars in class as for better or worse the CTS was always the odd one out.

    It should provide more interior room and a larger trunk.

    The one thing to note is moving it to the Alpha may permit GM to provide a larger CTS but also keep it similar in weight and who knows it could to prove to be ligher than the present smaller car we have now. GM has learned how to make the Alpha very light with the ATS and I am sure many of the measures will be employeed on the CTS too. While It is not going to come in at the 3300 of the ATS there is a real chance it will beat the 5 series in weight.

    I have heard talk of the Turbo V6 having 350 HP. Also expect a V8 to continue in a V series car.

    The real unknown is will there be a Coupe again? Also with the ATS getting a Wagon will the CTS wagon return. Sales have been very weak here and the smaller wagone would do better in their attempts in Europe.

    I really don't expect any major suprises here. The ATS and XTS have shown us where this car is going style wise and we know to expect more room. I would also expect to see more technology being in the mix here at the higher price point. With a V8, magnetic shocks and a powerful V8 in a l light car for the class I can see this car being much better than the present CTS.

    It will be interesting to see where this all ends up.

    Alpha is far from done with what we will see. Just wait for the Camaro.

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    It would make sense to move to Alpha and drop Sigma and reduce cost while increasing quality and profit margin.

    Edited by dfelt

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    CTS currently IS a very similar size to the 5-series, they're less than 2" apart in OL. It doesn't need to grow a single inch (tho the wheelbase could increase a bit if they wanted it to).

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    I think Cadillacs point is they will gain the 2 inches.

    The ATS needs more space between and the CTS to be more. Also how many here cry becase there are no larger Cadillacs and they do not fit in a CTS? More than I want to hear.

    The steps between the ATS, CTS and new flag ship RWD will be just right with the XTS doing the dirty work of fleet work, profesional car work and the remaining snow top traditional luxury buyers that are left in FL and other areas. Toss in some suprises like a small roadster, a coupe coupes and a wagon they should have a nice car line up. The trucks will sell as long as they are blinged out Chevys and will make a lot of money doing so.

    I just wonder where the smaller SUV lines will go. The small SUV market is growing and growing. It makes one wonder what Cadillacs reaction will be. The SRX I feel will not be alone for long.

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    ATS equals the 3-series in length.

    CTS is 1.7" less than the 5-series, or other words; equal.

    There is no point in growing the CTS 1.7"

    My reaction here is that, somehow, still, people actually believe the CTS is "uncompetitive" with the 5-series based solely on size (of which there is no discernible difference).

    In other words, if the CTS was within one-half inch, SOMEONE would still bring up size as an "issue".

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    Other publications are reporting this is an all new model, that it's larger, and that it's Alpha based.

    other publications are reporting the assumptions of the original author.

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    ATS equals the 3-series in length.

    CTS is 1.7" less than the 5-series, or other words; equal.

    There is no point in growing the CTS 1.7"

    My reaction here is that, somehow, still, people actually believe the CTS is "uncompetitive" with the 5-series based solely on size (of which there is no discernible difference).

    In other words, if the CTS was within one-half inch, SOMEONE would still bring up size as an "issue".

    Until the 5-series grew and gained lots of weight with the latest generation, the CTS was within less than an inch. So unless the old 5-series as "too small" to compete with the new 5-series....

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    ATS equals the 3-series in length.

    CTS is 1.7" less than the 5-series, or other words; equal.

    There is no point in growing the CTS 1.7"

    My reaction here is that, somehow, still, people actually believe the CTS is "uncompetitive" with the 5-series based solely on size (of which there is no discernible difference).

    In other words, if the CTS was within one-half inch, SOMEONE would still bring up size as an "issue".

    When one finds that the Americans have built a very competitive luxury auto and has their own best beaten by it, then they start to look little things to complain about.

    The CTS-V and CTS in all versions beats the Driving Machine of BMW and MB, so the reviewers who do not want to believe we can build quality products that are the best use little things like 1.7" to justify why it is faster or not equal to a 5 series.

    Fact is we have to accept that we cannot win everyone over, so we need to stay focused on building the best product there is and accept that every other builder is out there is going to try and knock off our crown. Only by doing this will we truly stay the standard of the world and continue to win over skeptics.

    Every little comment needs to be reviewed and if it has a bit of fact for example certain dash trims that are not truly Luxury level, then you fix these things to make sure the American Driving machines are just that, The Driving machine Standard of the World. CTS-V

    Edited by dfelt
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    Who knows they may make it 1.5 more than the 5 series for a total of 3"inches increase. in relation to the 5 it really matters less vs the ATS. The greater difference in size between the CTS and ATS is to Cadillacs advantage. Why have two cars nearly the same size?

    The bottom line is that with the ATS now here the CTS can afford to add a little more to gain more trunk and interior room. With using the Alpha they can now do so with less risk of a weight penalty.

    More room at the same or less weight and a car that is moved farther away fromt he ATS. Where is the down side?

    I would toss out the 5 series argument all together as the key is to make place for the CTS between the ATS and new flag ship. Let it become a car not so close to the other two models.

    They need to make their car their own and not just a CTS large, medium and small.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    They need to make their car their own and not just a CTS large, medium and small.

    The odd thing is the current CTS has a longer wheelbase than the 'new flagship' (XTS).

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    CTS dimensionally may be similar to 5-series, but even compared to the previous generation, it was relatively cramped inside and was certainly not to the same caliber of engineering, equipment, prestige, pricing, etc.

    With the ATS being the new entry-level Cadillac sports sedan and the true 3-series competitor, the new CTS can stop being a "tweener" and rival the 5-series, E-Class, and A6 directly.

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    FYI, GM has never officially called the XTS "new flagship". It is media made up term.

    This is true and what is even worse are people who are GM fans that call it a flagship when GM has made it clear it is not the flagship.

    GM has made it clear that this car is the volume Service fleet/ livery go to car frm the start. Also it is a FWD for those who demand FWD. The fact is the XTS was a car started long ago and just finished with the new money. It is a gap filler and a car that will lift the resale burden from the other main line Cadillacs. In other words no resale value plunge like the Town Car to the ATS and CTS while providing the easy money that the Town Car used to bring in to Ford before they killed it. In other words they had this car already and they may as well put it to some use vs wasting the money invested. Doing it this way will not harm the other Cadillac and will provide some needed cash flow.

    The XTS mission is seperate from the rest of the Cadillac line. For what it's worth it is their Captiva.

    The flagship is yet to come.

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    The XTS mission is seperate from the rest of the Cadillac line. For what it's worth it is their Captiva.

    Weak excuse...

    The flagship is yet to come.

    I'll believe that when I see it..

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    The greater difference in size between the CTS and ATS is to Cadillacs advantage. Why have two cars nearly the same size?

    Good question, let's e-mail BMW public relations and find out why they have 2 cars nearly the same size!

    While we're at it, let's e-mail mercedees' public relations and find out why they have 2 cars nearly the same size!

    :wacko:

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    Just 2?

    The flagship is coming. There is a whole platform being developed for it.

    What I find most amusing is the people bitching about it most are those driving 100k mile cars and will never buy a flagship from ANYONE.

    Last I looked, and to Pauli's dismay, the Lacrosse is holding its value pretty well.

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    The XTS mission is seperate from the rest of the Cadillac line. For what it's worth it is their Captiva.

    Weak excuse...

    The flagship is yet to come.

    I'll believe that when I see it..

    Not a weak excuse just buisness.

    You will see it and finally believe it. Cadillac needs at least one larger car model even in a lower volume. Once they have the CTS and ATS in place the time will be right for a top line car. Too many wanted the top line first but it would have failed as Cadillac had yet to prove they could build a world class car at $40K . How can you expect someone to plop down near $100K for a unproven car?

    Edited by hyperv6

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    The greater difference in size between the CTS and ATS is to Cadillacs advantage. Why have two cars nearly the same size?

    Good question, let's e-mail BMW public relations and find out why they have 2 cars nearly the same size!

    While we're at it, let's e-mail mercedees' public relations and find out why they have 2 cars nearly the same size!

    :wacko:

    The box cars are being made is getting smaller so there is less room between them. But even then the 5 series is different enough to give buyers a different feel and more room in the car. These two cars attract different buyers. A third larger Cadillace also attract different buyers.

    The way some of you act here GM just needs one car per division and I find it odd as I would expect that most complaining the most would want the greater difference between lines.

    I expect in the next gen Lacrosse and Regal they also too will be spread out a little more. They nearly overlap each other in price and size. GM has done a good job of trying to make them appeal to different buyers but I suspect the next gen Lacrosse will grow in size at some point. It is a case GM simply had to work with what they had.

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    Seems like they are following the Lexus strategy... Lexus has 3 RWD sedan lines (IS, GS, LS) and a FWD appliance (ES) for volume. Though in Cadillac's case, why not leave the FWD filler to Buick? Unlike Toyota/Lexus, GM has a brand for FWD near-lux models--Buick. You don't see BMW or MB putting FWD volume models between the 5 and 7 or the E and S...

    I just don't see the point of the XTS, since it's not a step up from the CTS but a step down/sideways. The XTS may sell well against the MKs and ES, but that's aiming pretty low.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    What I find most amusing is the people bitching about it most are those driving 100k mile cars and will never buy a flagship from ANYONE.

    That's kind of a low blow and not relevant to the topic at hand.

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    The point of the XT$ is money.

    The Town Car was a cash cow for Ford. GM already had much of the basic work and money invested in the XTS. They can sell this as the Volume car and target the other three lines to specific buyers who don't want to see their car in fleet sales.

    The XT$ may not advance Cadillac technology or Image wise but it will do no harm money wise.

    Lexus offers the 250 also as a car for those who demand FWD. For just being a tarted up Camry it still brings in money and does little harm to the image.

    Fact remains there are many who will not buy a RWD car. While it is smaller in this segment as most also have a suv at home for winter there are some who still want FWD. Their money is green too.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    What I find most amusing is the people bitching about it most are those driving 100k mile cars and will never buy a flagship from ANYONE.

    That's kind of a low blow and not relevant to the topic at hand.

    Well you're not buying an S-Class, a 7-series, or an XTS anytime soon are you? There is a predilection on C&G to pre-judge cars and to declare anything that doesn't fit the person's definition of "a good car" as a crap car that will never ever sell.

    SMK and you have both been proven wrong by the SRX and Lacrosse. GM clearly has a better read on the market than you two do.

    As I've told SMK in the past I will tell you too. You cannot judge the future success of the XTS on the efforts of it's competition. The MKS wasn't built well and its sales figures reflect that. It has nothing to do with FWD/RWD and everything to do with the fact that the driver can see the foam insulation inside the HVAC vents while in a normal seating position. The Acura RL sells terrible, not because it is FWD based, but because it is a styling dud and offers very little over an Accord DeLuxe in terms of... anything.

    The XTS, if they build it right, will do well.

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    Last I looked, and to Pauli's dismay, the Lacrosse is holding its value pretty well.

    Alas, yes... was hoping to snatch one up dirt cheap, but unlike the last gen LaX, this one is retaining its value rather well.

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    Last I looked, and to Pauli's dismay, the Lacrosse is holding its value pretty well.

    Alas, yes... was hoping to snatch one up dirt cheap, but unlike the last gen LaX, this one is retaining its value rather well.

    Its not just the LaX... with higher gas prices, the extinction of large cars being manufactured and C4C removing a lot of serviceable large cars from the used car pool, decent cars LaX sized and above are hard to find.

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    What I find most amusing is the people bitching about it most are those driving 100k mile cars and will never buy a flagship from ANYONE.

    That's kind of a low blow and not relevant to the topic at hand.

    Well you're not buying an S-Class, a 7-series, or an XTS anytime soon are you? There is a predilection on C&G to pre-judge cars and to declare anything that doesn't fit the person's definition of "a good car" as a crap car that will never ever sell.

    SMK and you have both been proven wrong by the SRX and Lacrosse. GM clearly has a better read on the market than you two do.

    As I've told SMK in the past I will tell you too. You cannot judge the future success of the XTS on the efforts of it's competition.

    It's laughable how many believe a great majority of consumers shop for cars by overall length or which wheels drive.

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    What I find most amusing is the people bitching about it most are those driving 100k mile cars and will never buy a flagship from ANYONE.

    That's kind of a low blow and not relevant to the topic at hand.

    Well you're not buying an S-Class, a 7-series, or an XTS anytime soon are you? There is a predilection on C&G to pre-judge cars and to declare anything that doesn't fit the person's definition of "a good car" as a crap car that will never ever sell.

    SMK and you have both been proven wrong by the SRX and Lacrosse. GM clearly has a better read on the market than you two do.

    As I've told SMK in the past I will tell you too. You cannot judge the future success of the XTS on the efforts of it's competition.

    It's laughable how many believe a great majority of consumers shop for cars by overall length or which wheels drive.

    I can guarantee ALL BUT TWO of my friends know which wheels drive their cars. They don't know, and they don't care. And one of the two who knows, but doesn't care.

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    It's laughable how many believe a great majority of consumers shop for cars by overall length or which wheels drive.

    The great majority of consumers are sheep that only believe what is written in Consumer Reports. Cadillac is supposed to be above that... a luxury brand, not pushing common, mainstream FWD appliances..Cadillac should .leave the appliances to Chevy and Buick and focus on serious, RWD luxury cars.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    Sheep have money too.

    Many BMW's are sold to people who have no clue on the performance nature and just buy them for the image.

    In fact they made a crap load of money off the old 318's to people who had no clue.

    The XTS is short term as I do not expect it to be around forever. Even if it does last it may be sold as a fleet machine just as the Captiva and the Caprice. That is unless there is enough pubic demand GM could leave it avail to the public even longer. There are still a lot of people out there that love cars like this. Lexus has made a crap load of money off the 250.

    Either way it will be nice for Cadillac to have a 3rd car in the show room as it will still take some time for a flagship. This a no harm car and will bring in easy money. That is the point of selling cars is it not?

    At least with FWD/AWD/RWD there is no reason that anyone should leave the showroom looking for something that is not offered.

    You have to look at this big picture not from an enthusiast point of veiw.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    Yeah XTS should only be a 1 Gen car, as Caddy intros the flagship and others roll out this kind of car can go to Buick as the pricing will be wrong for Caddy by then

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    It's laughable how many believe a great majority of consumers shop for cars by overall length or which wheels drive.

    The great majority of consumers are sheep that only believe what is written in Consumer Reports. Cadillac is supposed to be above that... a luxury brand, not pushing common, mainstream FWD appliances..Cadillac should .leave the appliances to Chevy and Buick and focus on serious, RWD luxury cars.

    You aren't addressing some nebulous, upper-tier market slice of spec-conscious enthusiasts, but a micro-NICHE. Cadillac is not tesla or fisker, and neither is BMW or mercedees- the vast majority of their vast volume of consumers are EXACTLY like Paulie's friends.

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    You aren't addressing some nebulous, upper-tier market slice of spec-conscious enthusiasts, but a micro-NICHE. Cadillac is not tesla or fisker, and neither is BMW or mercedees- the vast majority of their vast volume of consumers are EXACTLY like Paulie's friends.

    WIth BMW and M-B, though, the vast majority of their cars are proper RWD luxury cars, not FWD appliances. That is the difference, and it makes all the difference in the world... I couldn't imagine paying $60k let alone $30k for a FWD appliance. FWD is fine for cheap appliances, but not for anything serious...maybe it's a generational thing and all the younger buyers have grown up w/ FWD and don't know any better...

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    Sheep have money too.

    Many BMW's are sold to people who have no clue on the performance nature and just buy them for the image.

    In fact they made a crap load of money off the old 318's to people who had no clue.

    The XTS is short term as I do not expect it to be around forever. Even if it does last it may be sold as a fleet machine just as the Captiva and the Caprice. That is unless there is enough pubic demand GM could leave it avail to the public even longer. There are still a lot of people out there that love cars like this. Lexus has made a crap load of money off the 250.

    I don't think the ES has been a 250 in over 10 years...it's the 350 currently..and GM has Buick to sell such models..and again, BMW and M-B don't have such things in their lineups...3,5,6,7....C-,E-,CLS-, S-class...all RWD goodness w/ no mainstream FWD in sight.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    Anyway, enough of my tangent. Back to the thread topic, it's going to be interesting to see what they do w/ the next CTS...can't tell much from the spy pics but it looks evolutionary from the current model...maybe it will have some rounded edges like the ATS...

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    Sorry I ment ES350 as it is nothing more than a warmed over Toyota.

    The whole thing boils down to the fact GM had the XTS done for the most part. They did not have a flag ship or any other RWD in the works till well after the chapter 11. Buick already has a Lacross. The simple fact is Cadillac has one car and only one more new one ready to go into production being the ATS.

    So do they duplicate the car over at Buick or do they add somethings to it that could not be had on a Buick and make some money with a third model for a few years?

    Cadillac has not been and still is not BMW or Benz. To become one of this class will take time and money.

    I feel it Cadillac will be better served with a left over FWD/AWD transition car vs living off one car and a bunch of chomed Chevy [but profitable] SUV's.

    Once Cadillac get the larger car ready we will see the XTS fade away. In time Cadillac will become what you want but till then they just don't have the finished product.

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    CTS is the right size on the outside, but too small on the inside. I was at the Pittsburgh Auto show today and yesterday, sat in the E-class both days, it feels much more roomy than a CTS and the cars are the same size. Even a Sonata or Optima feels roomier than a CTS does. With better space management, I think the exterior of the CTS can stay the same size and interior can grow. The cramped interior needs to be addressed. I even heard many people saying the CTS was too small for them and they want a bigger car. I think the interior fools them into thinking the CTS is smaller than it actually is.

    I got a good look at the XTS, the lady said pricing was expected to be $45-60k. The XTS doesn't look as big as it is, which is good, because the MKS looks bigger than it is, and looks ridiculous. The interior looked nice (could not sit in it), but not as well made as an E-class or 5-series. It is better than a Lexus or Acura interior of that price range, but that isn't saying much. I can tell old guys that want a roomy car and don't want to drive over 55 mph will like the XTS. But that demographic isn't a big one, as witnessed by STS/DTS and MKS/Town Car sales.

    On a side note, the new M5 looks spectacular and the difference between that and a CTS-V is dramatic. The M5's brakes are more impressive than the whole CTS-V. CTS-V looks so tacky, and the build quality isn't very good either.

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    Are Audis including the A8 just FWD appliances? Don't give me that crap about which way the engine is mounted, it doesn't matter a hill of beans now with Hi-Per strut. The weight balance of an A8 and Lacrosse AWD are nearly identical.

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    Are Audis including the A8 just FWD appliances? Don't give me that crap about which way the engine is mounted, it doesn't matter a hill of beans now with Hi-Per strut. The weight balance of an A8 and Lacrosse AWD are nearly identical.

    Audis don't sell very well in the USA. They appeal to the luxury customer that wants sub-dued styling and AWD because they think it is safe, and perhaps like the fuel economy of a small displacement, boosted engine. There is a market for that type of car, but it isn't the biggest segment of buyers.

    And the A7 has a disappointing interior for what it costs, and a 310 hp 3.0 liter V6 at $77,000, I think not. The Cadillac press person even mentioned how the XTS has more interior room than an Audi A6 (which I would hope since the XTS is far bigger) but if they are looking to steal A6 sales, how many are there to steal. No one buys an A6, or an Acura RL or Volvo S80. But the XTS will get sales of the 70+ crowd that only buys American because there are no other big American cars left, expect for the terrible MKS.

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    Are Audis including the A8 just FWD appliances? Don't give me that crap about which way the engine is mounted, it doesn't matter a hill of beans now with Hi-Per strut. The weight balance of an A8 and Lacrosse AWD are nearly identical.

    Audis are AWD in the US. And except for the A3, they don't have transverse engines and thus don't suffer from the weak too-short front wheel-to-door distance that transverse FWD models suffer from..their proportions are closer to RWD..

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    What they are doesn't matter, what they're based on is what counts..... or so you've told me. So what you're saying is that if Cadillac sold the SRX as only AWD, yours and SMK's bitchfest about the second best selling mid-size luxury crossover would end? Somehow, I don't think it would.

    When you're done chewing on that one, talk to me about the front-wheel to door distance at Audi

    lead15audia8fd2011.jpg

    post-51-0-11944200-1329785271.png

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    Thanks for posting. Appears to be the concept XTS, not sure if the production car's proportions match it. Notice the base of the windshield stretches over the wheel arch on the Cadillac, whereas the Audi's stops fully behind.

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    The A4/5/6/7 have better proportions than the A8, but the A8 isn't bad...doesn't look like a typical weak FWD profile.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    A8 is a much better car than XTS... regardless of powertrain layout. And besides the A8's engine is mounted longitudinally, which allows for a predictable full-time Torsen AWD system.

    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350. It will sell by virtue of being large, cushy, and inexpensive compared to its similarly sized European rivals. Engineering a $100K Cadillac supersedan at this time simply doesn't make sense.

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    .... which is a function of greenhouse design... Not drive train layout...

    True- look at the 'Steering Wheel to A-Pillar Base' of each. :wacko:

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    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

    I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

    .... which is a function of greenhouse design... Not drive train layout...

    True- look at the 'Steering Wheel to A-Pillar Base' of each. :wacko:

    The old cab-forward idea which hasn't gone away..unfortunately, with that stubby, sloping hood and lights coming half way up the fender, the XTS nose in profile looks like it was inspired by the Yaris..it needs at least an extra 6 inches of wheelbase, with at least 4 of it ahead of the firewall...111.7 is way too short for a fullsize.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

    To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

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    SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

    To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

    New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

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    New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

    I think they can do it..the current CTS is fundamentally a very good product, and I expect the next one will be also..

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    smk4565 ~ >>"SRX sells because it is cheap."<<

    Price is a grand higher than the 1st gen, and ATP is $2500 higher also. Price is not the prime factor.

    >>"It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords."<<

    This is instantly disproven by the crushing volume of lexus RXs sold to 'sucker Americans'.

    >>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

    The focus here is profitability and improving the brand, it is not an all-out quest for volume (ALA mercedees).

    >>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

    I dunno- let's go ask mercedees how they handle their miniSUVvan & m-class SUV fully overlapping in price point.

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    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

    I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

    I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

    Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

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    >>"I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus."<<

    "I don't think hyundai competes with mercedees or BMW"

    Or, oh wait- in this case are we allowed to look at the individual models concerned instead of rocking off 1990s stereotypes. :rolleyes:

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    SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

    To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

    New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

    Escalade is a truck though, and huge SUVs have had success in the high dollar range, although obviously popularity has declined over the past few years. CTS V6 has to sell at a similer price point as the STS V8, and we know how few STS V8s they were selling the past few years.

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    smk4565 ~ >>"SRX sells because it is cheap."<<

    Price is a grand higher than the 1st gen, and ATP is $2500 higher also. Price is not the prime factor.

    >>"It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords."<<

    This is instantly disproven by the crushing volume of lexus RXs sold to 'sucker Americans'.

    >>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

    The focus here is profitability and improving the brand, it is not an all-out quest for volume (ALA mercedees).

    >>"When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales?"<<

    I dunno- let's go ask mercedees how they handle their miniSUVvan & m-class SUV fully overlapping in price point.

    If you look at sales of midsize to full size SUVs, luxury and non-luxury, the domestics outsell the imports. In general Americans prefer American SUVs to Japanese ones for example. The RX350 bucks the trend because it was one of the first luxury crossovers, probably the first.

    I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6. Or like the STS used to sell. This new CTS has to blow the current CTS away, if it is just 10% better, and 10% bigger, they already sold that car from 2005-2011 and it failed.

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    >>"I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus."<<

    "I don't think hyundai competes with mercedees or BMW"

    Or, oh wait- in this case are we allowed to look at the individual models concerned instead of rocking off 1990s stereotypes. :rolleyes:

    Hyundai does not compete with BMW or Mercedes, I don't think they should even mention how the Genesis V8 has more horsepower than an E550. They should say how the Genesis V8 has 100 more hp than a CTS or G37 or Lincoln/Acura whatever. Hyundai shoud compare directly to other $35-45,000 cars because theirs is way better. And they should promote RWD like crazy to the fools buying Lincolns and Acuras.

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    SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

    To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

    Let's play the "How many times is SMK wrong?" game... this isn't a drinking game because I don't want to have to check you all in to Betty Ford....

    1. SRX transaction prices are equal to the X3 and GLK. The SRX is the same size interior as those which is how car classes are determined... interior room. If the SRX is cheap, then so are they.
    2. SRX has a 71% conquest rate
    3. There simply weren't enough MKXes and Aspens sold for "domestic only" SUV buyers to come flocking to Cadillac at that volume.
    4. The Lexus build quality on the RX hasn't advanced since 2004, in some areas they've reversed course.
    5. The X5 and M-Class are a completely different class from the SRX, neither are entry lux CUV.
    6. Asking "what happens when the CTS and XTS overlap in price point?" is like asking "What happens when the Escalade and Corvette overlap in price point?" or "What happens when the Sprinter and C-class overlap in price point?".. and roughly equal to "What happens when the ATS and Lacrosse overlap in price point?!?!?!?!?!11?!!?!"

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    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

    I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

    I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

    Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

    The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

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    SRX sells because it is cheap. It also sells because Americans are suckers for domestic SUVs in the same way they are suckers for Camry and Accords. On the plus side, it looks better than an RX350 or MKX and it has more power than either one also. Lexus may have it in build quality and technology , but the Lincoln and Acrua offerings don't have an interior as good as the SRX. The German midsize luxury SUVs are considerably more expensive than an SRX.

    To bring this back to the CTS, here is where the challenge will lie. When the CTS goes up in price to make way for the ATS, what happens to CTS sales? And then also, what happens with the XTS and CTS fully overlapped in price point?

    New CTS will be a test to see if Cadillac can sell a $50-60K sedan in non-niche volumes. This has been a struggle for brands like Acura, Volvo, and Lincoln, but I think Cadillac can do it--think Escalade.

    Escalade is a truck though, and huge SUVs have had success in the high dollar range, although obviously popularity has declined over the past few years. CTS V6 has to sell at a similer price point as the STS V8, and we know how few STS V8s they were selling the past few years.

    What SMK meant to say what that it needs to sell at the same price point as a 3900lb 4-cylinder 5-series with "leatherette"

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    I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

    CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

    Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

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    I wonder if some of the people on here like to post just to post rather than contribute? I know we all like to agree with others at times, but it seems some tend to be specific in posting stretched info.

    Comparing Apples to Pears seems to be common place now.

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    MYOPIA

    1: a condition in which the visual images come to a focus in front of the retina of the eye resulting especially in defective vision of distant objects

    2: a lack of foresight or discernment : a narrow view of something

    my·o·pic \-ˈō-pik, -ˈä-\

    I think I may start a chairity for suffers if this infliction. What color should the ribbon be?

    I see more and more cases all the time where many can't step back and look at the big picture for GM or the auto market.

    Sometimes they are wrong because they don't understand the market or interject personel wants before market wants. Also they don't account the reasons GM is doing something because they either don't know or understand the internal reasons for some of GM's actions. GM can not always just go out and do what they want as even they have limits.

    Desiging building and selling autombiles is not an easy task and it even trips up the sharpest minds at times. Even Lutz who is one of the few who has a pretty good grasp of the market as admitted his errors.

    The XTS is the best they can do short term and it is better than nothing. Even GM can make lemonaide out of a lemon. [Not saying the XTS is a Lemon] Time will prove who wins here witht he XTS. I think we all have placed our bets and will just have to wait and see who wins. By then the losers will remain quiet and the winners will forget about who said what as the next argument with new distorted facts will be on the table.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

    CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

    Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

    Yes, but that is without the ATS in dealerships, and no STS in dealerships either. The CTS sells well now, but what if base price goes up $10,000 over night, and a cheaper car is offered. They want the CTS to get bigger and more expesnive, thus exactly what the STS was, and the STS was a dud. So my point was only that the CTS better be fantastic, and not another STS, because they can't afford STS sales volumes.

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    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

    I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

    I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

    Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

    The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

    I still don't see Buick as luxury. A Nissan Maxima is $2,000 more than a LaCrosse, is that a luxruy car? The LaCrosse and Enclave are also full size vehicles, a car or SUV of that size from a luxury brand would cost far more. Enclave is the same size and seating capacity as an Escalade, yet the Escalade is $30,000 more. So if the Enclave is a true luxury SUV, then why are people buying Escaldes, or why aren't they charging $60k for an Enclave? The reason being the Envlace nor any Buick are luxury vehicles.

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    The CTS will take the place of the STS in a way but it will not be the STS. Don't be so focused that that a larger CTS=STS.

    The Alpha will let it be the car the STS could never have been.

    If they can give you a CTS with more interior room, faster magnetic tuned suspension and more power than the present car at nearly the same weight or possibly less? Would you find that acceptable? This is what we know could be possible with this new car. This will be a car built on the new platform and not just a rehash of an old outdated platform that has it's limits to get anylighter or flexible.

    Step back and take a look at the big picture and what the Alpha is telling us that it can do. there is a lot to learn by understanding the thinking that went into the Alpha. This is GM platform they wanted a long time ago and could not afford to build. This time they got what they wanted.

    Lighten up on Buick as they are like Cadillac and only are starting to evolve to where they need to be. We have yet to dee an all new post Chapter 11 Buick and we have only seen the first Chapter 11 Cadillac. This will take some time to move up fully to the segment where they will live. Each new model will be a building block.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

    CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

    Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

    Yes, but that is without the ATS in dealerships, and no STS in dealerships either. The CTS sells well now, but what if base price goes up $10,000 over night, and a cheaper car is offered. They want the CTS to get bigger and more expesnive, thus exactly what the STS was, and the STS was a dud. So my point was only that the CTS better be fantastic, and not another STS, because they can't afford STS sales volumes.

    But, was the STS better than the current CTS?

    No, it wasn't the STS worked when it was the first gen, by the time the current gen CTS was two years old the STS was outclassed

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    The CTS will take the place of the STS in a way but it will not be the STS. Don't be so focused that that a larger CTS=STS.

    The Alpha will let it be the car the STS could never have been.

    If they can give you a CTS with more interior room, faster magnetic tuned suspension and more power than the present car at nearly the same weight or possibly less? Would you find that acceptable? This is what we know could be possible with this new car. This will be a car built on the new platform and not just a rehash of an old outdated platform that has it's limits to get anylighter or flexible.

    I don't think the CTS will become like the STS, but there is that risk. At the time Sigma came out, it was supposed to be as good as an E39 5-series, yet it wasn't. So we here Alpha is as good as an E46 3-series but we'll see. Maybe it is, maybe it out handles an E36 M3, only time will tell.

    I would be satisfied with the CTS if it had more interior room, better materials and build quality, and the exterior didn't look bulky and fat. The 1st Gen CTS had better proportions than the current one, they it got fat and blingy. Powertrain needs upgraded to, the CTS isn't that quick or fuel efficient compared to the Germans or Infiniti M-hybrid.

    I agree profitability is most important. But they need to sell more than 700 CTS's a month like Audi does with the A6.

    CTS sold 5200 units in Dec.

    Last time I checked, 5200 is more than 800.

    Yes, but that is without the ATS in dealerships, and no STS in dealerships either. The CTS sells well now, but what if base price goes up $10,000 over night, and a cheaper car is offered. They want the CTS to get bigger and more expesnive, thus exactly what the STS was, and the STS was a dud. So my point was only that the CTS better be fantastic, and not another STS, because they can't afford STS sales volumes.

    But, was the STS better than the current CTS?

    No, it wasn't the STS worked when it was the first gen, by the time the current gen CTS was two years old the STS was outclassed

    So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

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    The Sigma was only what GM could afford and not what they so much wanted. They did the best with the funding they had at the time. The STS was like all other GM cars at the time about 75% of what it needed to be. Just like the 4 th gen Camaro it got all the driveline and chassie they could afford but then they had nothing left for interior and power windows that would not fail.

    The ATS ws designed from the start to be expanded and changed to different configs. The key to all of this will be the weight. No more heavy platform here. The Sigma and Zeta both were done in a way they could never remove the weight. They could remove a little but they had limits. The Alpha was designed to be lighter from the wheels up as they say. Also it is at the start of it's life.

    As for your critic on proportions it is nothing put your subjective opinion. The CTS will see a Turbo 6 and a new DI V8. You really need to look ahead and not at what is at hand.

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    So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

    depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

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    So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

    depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

    MY 2014, I think..

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    Low weight RWD platform is a good start, but it is only a start. The Germans have had boosted sixes and DI V8s for years, so that only gets Cadillac caught up. But by 2014, the bar may have moved again. Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class, so is low weight where Cadillac really wants to pick its battles?

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    >>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

    Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

    Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

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    >>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

    Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

    Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

    Carbon fiber chassis and body, and possbily a fuel cell powertrain. They expect to only make 20,000 globally per year.

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    >>"Plus, Mercedes is planning a 2800 lb E-class"<<

    Believe it when I see it - that sort of weight range is impossible in that size class anymore.

    Or have they hinted they're going to strip the safety & electronics out of it?

    Carbon fiber chassis and body, and possbily a fuel cell powertrain. They expect to only make 20,000 globally per year.

    So it will probably be $150k...back down to earth, we could expect a normal $50k E-class to be 3500-3800lbs or so?

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    I believe they thought an E-superlight would be priced like an E63 AMG, but yes it could be pretty expensive. A regular V6 E-class is 3825 lbs, which I suspect is about what they will weigh for several years to come.

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    I believe they thought an E-superlight would be priced like an E63 AMG, but yes it could be pretty expensive. A regular V6 E-class is 3825 lbs, which I suspect is about what they will weigh for several years to come.

    Sort of an E 'Green Series'. Now what would be interesting would be a E-superlight w/ the AMG drivetrain...2800lbs + 500hp...

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    So like how the ATS will outclass a CTS that has been on the market for 5 model years?

    depends if the new CTS wont be out for five more model years

    With the photo's of the CTS I would expect 2014 as a 2015 model.

    As for light weight cars it is the new thing for the entire auto industry. The Luxury cars and high end models will see more new light weight and expensive materials in use. We will see much more use of magnesium, aluminium and high strength plastics and molded carbon fiber. These will be added to the already expanded use of Boron Steel.

    GM is alreasdy investing big in a company that has perfected molded Carbon Fiber. They expect to use this in many areas and reduce weight and cost of these items. They already have shown mirror units other items that can be made at a reasonable cost. Thes items will show up first on the Cadillac line and as volume increases the prices will drop to a point where they will find their way to the lower models just as most new technologies.

    Lets face it they are not going to meet the new future CAFE without cutting weight even with a 3 cylinder in a ATS. They have a lot of other ideas and the E assist will also be improved and I would not be suprised to find a new improved system to become the norm in most models at some point. Luzt hinted loud this week about that. The industry is in no way ready to go all electric in the near future but electric boost will be a greater part every year. Even the new Ferrari Enzo replacment will have a 800 HP engine and a 100 HP electrivc motor booster.

    I expect we will see where the future lies when we see and hear more on the flagship. I expect it to be a good size car with power but it will not be just a gas V8 only. I suspect a lot of the new technology they are working on will first show up in this car. It will make a statment of where the market is going and GM will say it loud with that car. After that much of what it has will find it's way to the rest of the line up and then to the other brands.

    The new efficent technologies to come will rival things like FI, Anti Lock Brakes, Stability Control, DI, engine computer managment and other great advancements.

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    Word is the next CTS may get an 8-speed automatic, but probably not at launch. To me the CTS needs 8 gears, even if they have to buy it off ZF. There has to be some sort of diesel or hybrid model that posts high fuel economy as well since Infiniti, Lexus, BMW have hybrids, and Merecedes has diesel, and Audi or Jaguar may add a diesel by 2015.

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

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    Word is the next CTS may get an 8-speed automatic, but probably not at launch. To me the CTS needs 8 gears, even if they have to buy it off ZF. There has to be some sort of diesel or hybrid model that posts high fuel economy as well since Infiniti, Lexus, BMW have hybrids, and Merecedes has diesel, and Audi or Jaguar may add a diesel by 2015.

    The 8 speed is a given and at last time I heard it will be ready for the into of the CTS and Camaro barring any unforseen delays. No mystery here.

    Same with the hybrid as GM is getting to the point that every model they make will have some kind of a hybrid version only the Vette is excluded at this point. I expect the Cadillac will be the most advanced of all the versions and it will expand down as volume increases. Call it trickle down technology.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Dec/1208_teijin

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

    In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

    Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

    http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

    Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

    http://www.torquenews.com/397/bmw-opens-carbon-fiber-plant-moses-lake-wa

    Edited by dfelt

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

    In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

    Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

    http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

    Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

    http://www.torquenew...t-moses-lake-wa

    That's pretty cool...interesting that BMW would open a plant in Washington..seems like an off-the-radar location for an auto-related plant...does carbon naturally occur there or something?

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    HyperV6, I agree with your whole listed statement of new technologies.

    BMW is almost done building their new Carbon Fiber (CF) Manufacturing Plant in Moses Lake Washington. They have also built a small test track there and have stated that they will be starting with building CF parts for their M line of auto's and will expand it as cost go down. They seem to be wanting to get their hands on Boeings CF part engineers and manufacturing employees at their CF plant there.

    I see CF parts becoming more common on all vehicles as a way to greatly reduce weight.

    DreamAuto in our Futre?

    The key to CF in the future is to cut the production time and labor. Who ever does this opens the door to the future. Teijin GM's new partner has a way of making CF Thermo plastics and they can do cycle times in under one minute. Conventional CF Thermosetting composites take much longer and in this deal time is money and the ability to do great volumes are limited.

    I expect even more things will come into play.

    Even with the cost savings I expect the price of these new cars to climb with the need for these more expensive materials to cut weight. At this point they have no choice.

    Here is what GM put out to the media on their new partnership. http://media.gm.com/...Dec/1208_teijin

    In the short term, yes prices will rise, but long term they will drop as the technology that is going into the total CF plan DreamLiner is being used to scale down costs and speed up creation of CF parts. I think with a solid work force, we will see this happen sooner rather than later.

    Check out the opening of the Moses Lake BMW CF plant.

    http://www.bizjourna...rbon-fiber.html

    Check out the pictures, the best are the one of the new BMW M6 bumper and the I3 Body made of CF. Really cool stuff.

    http://www.torquenew...t-moses-lake-wa

    That's pretty cool...interesting that BMW would open a plant in Washington..seems like an off-the-radar location for an auto-related plant...does carbon naturally occur there or something?

    Three big sources are here,

    1) Both the University of Washington and Washington University have special programs that had considerable input from Boeing on Carbon Fiber Engineering and Manufacturing. AKA Why the DreamLiner became reality

    2) Reliable, cheap Hydro Power since it takes lots of power to create/manufacture CF.

    3) Cheap transportation of raw materials on the rail lines going through Moses Lake.

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    Three big sources are here,

    1) Both the University of Washington and Washington University have special programs that had considerable input from Boeing on Carbon Fiber Engineering and Manufacturing. AKA Why the DreamLiner became reality

    2) Reliable, cheap Hydro Power since it takes lots of power to create/manufacture CF.

    3) Cheap transportation of raw materials on the rail lines going through Moses Lake.

    Makes sense..I figured w/ Boeing in Wa there would be considerable materials engineering and mftg talent available. Sounds like BMW is working on mainstreaming CF in a big way..

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    None of which actually matters, because the XTS is Cadillac's ES350.

    I suppose GM just couldn't use the LaCrosse to compete w/ the MKS and ES, which is a more natural competitor for those models than something from Cadillac...

    I don't think Buick competes with Lincoln or Lexus. There in lies part of the problem. The LaCrosse competes with the Avalon, Taurus and Maxima. A Maxima can even hit $41,000, so can a SHO. I'd say the Chrysler 300 and Genesis are competitors also on size and price point, different drive wheels, but they would still get cross shopped I think.

    Since Buick is not a luxury car, Cadillac has to wear many hats, thus they need an XTS to cater to those in Florida that like pastel pearl paint jobs and seats you sink in to. I question if they really need to cater to this market though. Or if the CTS were as well executed as the E-class that it couldn't attract both those that want smooth ride and those that want performance.

    The Lacrosse and Enclave are most certainly luxury vehicles. They do quiet, power, and handling better than their counterparts at Lexus

    I still don't see Buick as luxury. A Nissan Maxima is $2,000 more than a LaCrosse, is that a luxruy car? The LaCrosse and Enclave are also full size vehicles, a car or SUV of that size from a luxury brand would cost far more. Enclave is the same size and seating capacity as an Escalade, yet the Escalade is $30,000 more. So if the Enclave is a true luxury SUV, then why are people buying Escaldes, or why aren't they charging $60k for an Enclave? The reason being the Envlace nor any Buick are luxury vehicles.

    Cost isn't the basis of being a luxury car. The base Maxima is not a luxury car, but I can see a loaded up model being one. The Lacrosse is a modern interpretation of old school luxury. It is extremely quiet, soft and comfortable, reasonably powerful, and comes with a good amount of technology. What's been updated is the actual handling. It is no 3-series, but it isn't meant to be. It is a vehicle for people who value extra comfort over apexing turns.

    The Enclave is NOT the same size as the Escalade, nor does it have the same capabilities, nor does it have as much engine.... stop making &#036;h&#33; up. You'd get laughed out of any dealership for making such a suggestion.

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    Escalde's length/width/height is 202.5/79.0/75.9 inches. Wheelbase 116.0 inches

    Enclave's length/width/height is 201.8/79.0/72.5 inches Wheelbase 118.9 inches

    Enclave has 115.0 cubic feet of cargo room compared to 108.9 cubic feet of cargo room (from GM's websites)

    Those two vehicles are basically the same size, the Enclave is actually larger on the inside, the Escaldae is 3 inches taller but it has a big roof rack too.

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    Escalde's length/width/height is 202.5/79.0/75.9 inches. Wheelbase 116.0 inches

    Enclave's length/width/height is 201.8/79.0/72.5 inches Wheelbase 118.9 inches

    Enclave has 115.0 cubic feet of cargo room compared to 108.9 cubic feet of cargo room (from GM's websites)

    Those two vehicles are basically the same size, the Enclave is actually larger on the inside, the Escaldae is 3 inches taller but it has a big roof rack too.

    Enclave is 4780-4985lbs, Escalade, 5545-5723lbs..get a lot more bloat in a similar size w/ the Escalade...

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