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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    The Unclear Future of the Blackwing V8

      ...Good-Bye Blackwing?...

    Cadillac's Blackwing V8 was the brand's first in-house V8 engine since the Northstar back in the 90's. The engine boasted twin turbos, dual overhead camshafts, and output of 550 hp and 640 lb-ft of torque for the CT6-V. But with the CT6 set to end U.S. production this month, the future of Blackwing is up in the air. 

    "[We have] no specific plans for that engine, but never is a long time," said Cadillac president Steve Carlisle to Road & Track at the launch of the 2021 Escalade last week.

    Previous reports had the Blackwing possibly going into the either the 2021 Escalade or the high-potent version of the CT5. It's likely the Escalade is a no-go, while R&T says the CT5's engine cannot fit the Blackwing. Instead, it will be using the supercharged 6.2L V8 from the CTS-V. Cadillac isn't confirming or denying this on the high-performance CT5, only saying more information about this model will come in due time. 

    What may live on is the Blackwing name, something we first reported last July.

    "We learned a lot with Blackwing. It's an idea that's really resonated with people,. So there'll be a little bit of Blackwing in other cars going forward," said Carlisle.

    Source: Road & Track



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    I read elsewhere that a hi-po Escalade is definitely coming, so the BW seems a strong possibility there. 

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    @dwightlooi has clearly pointed out here, this whole mess of Turbo everything is a joke as you can get a NA V8 with that power or go with a less weight supercharged V8. Twin Turbo and Turbo engines are just over complicated messes.

    I agree with @balthazar as I also am reading on other sites that insiders are saying an Escalade V is still coming and that has the room to hold this engine.

    Read this the other day, seems the TT V6 from the AST-V edition will show up in the new CT4 V Blackwing edition.

    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-expected-with-twin-turbo-v6-engine-from-ats-v-140638.html

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    2 hours ago, dfelt said:

    @dwightlooi has clearly pointed out here, this whole mess of Turbo everything is a joke as you can get a NA V8 with that power or go with a less weight supercharged V8. Twin Turbo and Turbo engines are just over complicated messes.

    I agree with @balthazar as I also am reading on other sites that insiders are saying an Escalade V is still coming and that has the room to hold this engine.

    Read this the other day, seems the TT V6 from the AST-V edition will show up in the new CT4 V Blackwing edition.

    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-expected-with-twin-turbo-v6-engine-from-ats-v-140638.html

    i don't think its so much always about that as much as it is if the customer desires to want it.  A turbo eight generates new interest for Cadillac, its something they can market vs competition.  It has a power and delivery that are characteristically different than the old supercharged engines.  

    And, they developed the engine, so to not use it is a complete waste.

    The supercharged motors have a following with people who go the track, etc. so there is some good reasoning to continuing to use those as well.

    Could just simply be Cadillac doesn't want to spend development money to repackage for use in other products.....at this time.  The CT6 cancellation decision was independent of what is going on with the Escalade and CT5.  

    Another possibility is Cadillac simply wants to beta test the motor in the outgoing CT6 to as few delivered units as possible in case there are any QC issues with the new motor.  If there are, then there is only a few out in the wild that they need to spend money on warranty fixes for.  The new design could be expensive if it turns out to be a defective design that they didn't catch in product testing.

    I was looking at CT6 v8's on autotrader last night since i was looking at CT6's for my mom.  No way she can foot the bill for a v8!  A four year old 3.6 version is all that is in her possible price range.

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    My guess is this engine dies with the CT6.  They don't have a crossover that can take a V8, CT5 can't fit it, they probably aren't going to make a sports car.  That leaves the Escalade-V if it shows up, and I think they'll used the 6.2 supercharged there, because it is cheaper and easier.

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    2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    My guess is this engine dies with the CT6.  They don't have a crossover that can take a V8, CT5 can't fit it, they probably aren't going to make a sports car.  That leaves the Escalade-V if it shows up, and I think they'll used the 6.2 supercharged there, because it is cheaper and easier.

    Lets also point out superior to Turbo charged motors. Supercharging always is better than Turbo.

    Marketing has fed the global Public a LIE about Turbo's that is proven with supercharged motors. Clealry, GM failed to maximize the variable uses of a supercharged engine.

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    26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Lets also point out superior to Turbo charged motors. Supercharging always is better than Turbo.

    Marketing has fed the global Public a LIE about Turbo's that is proven with supercharged motors. Clealry, GM failed to maximize the variable uses of a supercharged engine.

    Superchargers are mostly used by GM, Dodge and 90s Toyota Previa's.  Not exactly the who's who of engine manufacturers.  Supercharged engines suck gas too, electric turbo is better and faster.

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    6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Superchargers are mostly used by GM, Dodge and 90s Toyota Previa's.  Not exactly the who's who of engine manufacturers.  Supercharged engines suck gas too, electric turbo is better and faster.

    Nope not true, WOW, you really look through rose colored Blinders. :roflmao:

    Will agree to disagree as electric superchargers are out there too just like electric turbo's and have no LAG. Seems you have also forgotten European auto companies that use superchargers too.

     

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    mercedes had a full dozen different models over a long span of years running superchargers.
    But then again- mercedes isn't exactly in the whos-who of engine builders.

    Edited by balthazar
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    2 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Nope not true, WOW, you really look through rose colored Blinders. :roflmao:

    Will agree to disagree as electric superchargers are out there too just like electric turbo's and have no LAG. Seems you have also forgotten European auto companies that use superchargers too.

     

    So Formula 1 cars, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche got it wrong, but Dodge and Chevrolet get it right?  Sure. 

    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    mercedes had a full dozen different models over a long span of years running superchargers.
    But then again- mercedes isn't exactly in the whos-who of engine builders.

    They had the SLK, 4 cylinder supercharged, the 3.2 V6 and that 5.4 V8 with superchargers from the Daimler-Chrysler days, and they probably threw all those away for good reason.

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    4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    So Formula 1 cars, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche got it wrong, but Dodge and Chevrolet get it right?  Sure. 

    They had the SLK, 4 cylinder supercharged, the 3.2 V6 and that 5.4 V8 with superchargers from the Daimler-Chrysler days, and they probably threw all those away for good reason.

    Marketing of DOHC Twin Turbo Bangers does not mean it really is the best long life engineering solution. YES, The German brands to me DO have it Wrong and it is NOT impressive when they are driven. But then I drive auto's that have outlasted pretty much everything those brands you brag about have built in the last 30 plus years.

    I see more American Small block motors lasting much longer than the Germans and even in the asian rim, it is amazing to see how many people also convert and install an american small block V8. The engineering of the Small Block V8 has out performed so much of the European motors. 

    There are rare exceptions but they are rare.

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    Well with the death of the Blackwing V8, GM can live and die with the small block V8.  Silverado and Escalade have been bleeding market share with it, Camaro will probably be dead in 2023, although that has nothing really to do with the engine and everything to die with it not being an SUV.

     

    Although I think GM’s design department has let them down way more in recent years than the powertain people.  Engines aren’t really GM’s problem, design is.

    Edited by smk4565
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    57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:
    3 hours ago, dfelt said:

     

    So Formula 1 cars, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche got it wrong, but Dodge and Chevrolet get it right?

    Yup!

    Whose to say Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche gets it right and Dodge and Chevy get it wrong?

    In reality...you ask a stupid question...you'll get a stupid answer. 

    In reality, supercharging has its advantages and its disadvantages and turbocharging has its advantages and disadvantages. 

    For Chevy and Dodge...and Ford (5.4 liter V8 in the Lightning and GT and the new 5.2 liter in the GT500) use a supercharger because  they need those V8s to be supercharged.  The cars and trucks in question need to be supercharged because of all kinds of reasons.  Engineering, packaging, image and marketing...

    For Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Porsche use turbos  because  they need those engines  to be turbocharged. The cars and trucks in question need to be turbocharged because of all kinds of reasons.  Engineering, packaging, image and marketing...

    Image and marketing is a HUGE deal.

    Porsche for instance.  TURBO is what they do...

    How much so?

    Image result for taycan turbo s

    They NEED their top dog trim ELECTRIC VEHICLE to be a TURBO trim...

    So....you may think is turbo better...you'd be WRONG!!!

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    29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Well with the death of the Blackwing V8, GM can live and die with the small block V8.  Silverado and Escalade have been bleeding market share with it, Camaro will probably be dead in 2023, although that has nothing really to do with the engine and everything to die with it not being an SUV.

     You are all over the place...

    The Escalade is not losing market share. Sales dipped because new generation is going to be introduced. Sales of end of gen product cycle usually dips towards...the end of the product...cycle.  

    Then you state that the Camaro is going to die, but that has nothing to do with the SBC that resides in it.  

    You do realize that the Escalade is still king in sales in its market...and has been since 20 years now...all with the SBC that resides under the hood...

    GM gas sold millions upon millions with the SBC in its cars...

    The SBC is one of the most successful of all engines ever built. In sales. In reliability. In winning races. 

    Its a PUSHROD V8.

    It has been supercharged by the factory. Its been supercharged by hot rodders.

    Im not sure if it has been turbocharged by the factory, but it has definitely been turbocharged by hot rodders. 

    It has been bored and stroked endlessly.  

    So when you say, GM can live or die with it...you say it as a bad thing.

    But why do you say that?

    Im perplexed...

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

      Although I think GM’s design department has let them down way more in recent years than the powertain people.  Engines aren’t really GM’s problem, design is.

    GM's core issue seems to be management incompetence.    They come out with an all new engine in a car being cancelled.  That's incompetence.   Their trucks are horrifically styled.  The Camaro is so badly designed as to be unusable as far as outward visibility.  That's incompetence.     The C-suite is full of imbeciles. 

    11 hours ago, balthazar said:

    mercedes had a full dozen different models over a long span of years running superchargers.
    But then again- mercedes isn't exactly in the whos-who of engine builders.

    Actually, engines have been one of M-B's core engineering strengths for decades.

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    Stock for stock, there's no way I'd take the GM version of what Mercedes offers in an engine. 

    Then again, there isn't much to compare as GM is cramming the n/a V6 in everything and Mercedes wants nothing to do with a torque-less engine like that. 

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    Mercedes engines are generally known for their long life, but as with any modern vehicle the electronics are the weak sauce to long term reliability.  And some of their engines have weird design flaws.  I'm sure one could get a million miles out of a GM LS engine, and it would be way cheaper to maintain than an MB to that point.   Not that I would want to get a million miles out of anything, I'm not a masochist.   100k miles is more than enough for me with one vehicle...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    It's clear the Blackwing V8 engine was Johan D's baby and the CT/XT naming was his idea as well. So they're possibly both gone with him leaving Cadillac. It's also clear that Steve Carlisle is now taking Cadillac in his direction and hopefully it's the right one, so far I really only disagree with canceling the Blackwing and CT6. It seems like they could build the CT6 at a different factory in limited numbers being that it's only been out for roughly 4 years now. There won't be reliability issues with the Blackwing as it's been torture tested for hundreds of thousands of miles. The Escalade V could definitely resurrect the Blackwing when it debuts which would be awesome. I've also heard that there might be a Cadillac version of the C8 Vette coming that could possibly fit the Blackwing, what a perfect marriage that would be. I've seen and sat in the C8 and with it's huge flipped reverse angle headers there's still some room in the engine bay and having the Hot-V turbo setup in the Blackwing gives it more room on the sides as well. We shall see.    

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    Everything gets torture tested for hundreds of thousands of miles and things still happen. 

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    2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Everything gets torture tested for hundreds of thousands of miles and things still happen. 

    Yes we have had plenty of Tahoe, Yukons, Escalades that have had dry engine knock and oil issues after being hard tested. Real world will always show what was missed in the QA process.

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    It's comical to witness those of you on here who try to say that neither GM nor Cadillac compare to Mercedes Benz, but MB is almost always brought up by you guys for comparison in Cadillac posts. It's hilarious to witness you stumble all over yourselves, quite the show. :roflmao:

    I've owned or driven both so if you haven't owned or actually driven both luxury marques more than just around the block then you have no merit to your ridiculous comments.

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    ccap41

    Posted (edited)

    20 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Yes we have had plenty of Tahoe, Yukons, Escalades that have had dry engine knock and oil issues after being hard tested. Real world will always show what was missed in the QA process.

    Exactly, I can't imagine the time and money spent testing the Ford 1.6T that ended up having all sorts of issues. 

    Oh, and the Powerstroke 6.0.

    I've owned a Mercedes and currently have one in the household. 

    Edited by ccap41

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    I've owned two Cadillac's '13 CTS-V and '16 ELR and driven two MB's. One MB was a new CLK 55 AMG (buddy's car) back in '02 and more recently a '17 C Class (aunt's car), wasn't impressed by either one. The AMG engine sounded like a V8 should, but it's transmission was crap, hunted for and banged gears the whole time. The C Class rides like a buckboard wagon and is cramped. Fifteen years between both and still not impressed with MB and I never had any problems with either Cadillac I've owned.

    Edited by USA-1

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    I am surprised that the Escalade wasn't renamed XT7 to better align with the current naming scheme and also position it better against the segment leader BMW X7.  Because in GM thinking, an XT7 is greater than X7.

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