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  • Blake Noble
    Blake Noble

    Does Mark Reuss Think Large Cars Have a Future? “Absolutely”

    G. Noble

    Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

    April 10th, 2012

    Yesterday evening, we reported on a few statements GM North American President Mark Reuss made to Australia’s GoAuto at this month’s New York Auto Show. Reuss briefly discussed with GoAuto concerns about the Zeta platform’s viability and what could be in store for the Australian Holden Commodore sedan. As it turns out though, GoAuto wasn’t the only auto-centric Aussie establishment itching to get a crack at Reuss.

    Australian car magazine Drive spoke to Reuss shortly after he introduced the new 2014 Chevrolet Impala large sedan at the Big Apple show. During the course of their conversation, Reuss hinted to Drive about the Commodore’s return to the US market as a new Chevrolet sports sedan that would also spawn a NASCAR version that would replace the current stock car based around the tepid outgoing Impala. The possibility of a double-edged large sedan attack from Chevrolet is certainly interesting then, given that buyers aren’t buying as many big cars as they used to these days.

    However, Reuss’ response, when asked if he thought big cars had a future around the world, was “absolutely.”

    “You’ve got technology inside these cars that give you close to 36, 37 miles per gallon on it. So it’s no longer a big fuel economy badness,” he said. “We don’t see fuel spikes happening right now, either. It’s a much more gradual move, which is much more palatable because people can adjust to the way they live to it.” He then continued: “So you’ve got those two dynamics and you’ve got the efficiency and the technology coming it to displace it and so it’s fueling demand to get a car that’s at a better operating cost and I think that’s only going to continue.”

    Reuss added that more sensible running costs will secure the future of large sedans. It seems he may be right when you consider that there are plenty of big cars these days that get decent fuel economy. While it’s unknown what figures the new Impala will achieve, its rivals — the Ford Taurus and Dodge Charger — all boast fuel economy numbers hovering near or at the low 30s on the highway. It’s reasonable to expect the next-generation of large sedans will boast numbers even better than that.

    “It’s a very naïve discussion to talk about big cars and small cars, it’s what kind of car do you want to get. The operating costs are going to be very good on these things as you go over time.”

    As for the Commodore’s return to America since it first came here as the Pontiac G8? Some insiders suggest the Commodore-cum-Chevy-cum-stock car is a done deal and will be here in 2013. It bears repeating that Chevrolet has confirmed a new model is coming to NASCAR next year that isn’t based on any current model or nameplate. Reuss said that he wants the race car to be in sync with the road going version — much like what Ford has done with the Fusion and what Dodge has done with the Charger — a statement that may point to a new V8, rear-drive model.

    So then it seems Zeta isn’t going anywhere and, after years of butting heads and gnashing teeth here on Cheers and Gears about the issue, cars of its ilk might be here to stay. Enthusiasts rejoice; it’ll be raining cars for a while yet.

    Source: Drive

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    I dunno. Call it a hunch but I think there will be a version of the new Impala that'll get about 36 mpg highway. I'm not just basing that off of Reuss' statement above, either. It isn't like the Impala is related to the LaCrosse with eAssist or anything ...

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    FWD Impala or RWD "Caprice", with roughly the same engines, similar gearing and weight, they are going to have similar mpg figures... but its nice to be able to pack a V8 version... obviously something a FWD car has trouble with.

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    Another hunch: either the Chevy Impala and Sport Sedan will merge around the time the generation after the upcoming models debuts, or the two-tier strategy continues, the Sport Sedan gains a V6 version and the Impala is sold in Australia as ... well, make up your own name for that one.

    Edited by black-knight
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    The Impala FWD is here to stay. The market demands are much greater with the general public for FWD sedans. Like it or not it is what they want.

    At least GM is still working to keep a RWD in the mix. It may be at lower volumes but they are still trying to keep a RWD for those who want it. As long as they can still make money with it at lower volumes they will do what they can to keep it. It gives them an advantage over many of the Asian companies. I don't see Honda offer one soon.

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    There is room for limited production run of RWD V8 cars. This can be a profitable niche that will please people and act as a halo car to other auto's that Chevy sells.

    QFT. Bring on the new Caprice! Need one to accompany the existing Camaro.

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    Impala's current volume is only sustainable going forward as FWD.

    And.......that leaves a nice dedicated niche for a Chevy SS aka Zeta G8 Chevy.

    Cops and -purists- get the car they want. And the volume buyers get what they want. It's all good.

    I would love to see a 4 cyl diesel Impala. 50 mpg...MMMMMM

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    I would expect Impalas volume is going to drop significantly. They will dial back hard on the fleeting and price is going up. I'd guess them right in the 65k - 75k a year range... about what the Taurus does.

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    The Impala will drop in sales but they will make more money per unit than the present car has made in year. The new car will prove to be more profitable. This is a case where less sold will mean more money.

    I wish people would drop the Caprice deal as the new car will not be a Civi version of the Caprice. Expect a fully updated short wheel base Zeta. It will be more than just a G8 with a new nose. I look for some weight loss [not a lot but some] a improved suspension and for it to be a new DI VVT V8 version only. It will not be cheap but it will fill in the area where the 40K plus SVO is in now.

    GM will keep the price up to keep volume down but the higher price will also keep the profits up with the lower volume. I also would would watch for some more expensive limited special editions like the Camaro Holden and the SVT cars.

    By doing lower volume and higher price it will help this car and engine package alive much longer into the future.

    Edited by hyperv6
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    Well, "Chivvalay Chevelle" still has a nice ring to it, imo... but even though there were countless thousands of 4-door Chevelles built and loved over the decades, my vision of a Chevelle is of my parents' Marina Blue '66 SS, or any 2-door of any model year it was produced.

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    I'm assuming they won't use the name used in the Middle East and South Africa for the Chevy Zeta SWB sedan--Lumina.

    Probably not. I know the Lumina's been out of production for over a decade, but that name still doesn't exactly have the greatest equity here in America. If GM uses that name on the back of a performance car, wellllll ... draw your own conclusion on the result of that.

    Who knows? Maybe, like ocn said, they'll pull the Chevelle name out of retirement. Then again, they could also introduce a brand new name to the North American market.

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    I know the Lumina's been out of production for over a decade

    *attempt to bite tongue fails*

    Technically, it hasn't. Ch#$r%*et has just chosen to slap a different nameplate on it. Period.

    Who knows? Maybe, like ocn said, they'll pull the Chevelle name out of retirement. Then again, they could also introduce a brand new name to the North American market.

    It MUST be a new name to the NA market ... that is what press release stated.

    Done warning.

    Cort | 38.m.IL | pigValve + paceMaker + cowValve | 5 MCs + 1 Caprice Classic

    CHD.MCs.CC + RoadTrips.hobbies.RadioShows.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

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    "You've made a fool of everyone" __ Jet __ 'Look What You've Done'

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    I know it will not be Lumina,

    Thiis car has one directive and it will be a performance sedan. I would expect a name that has performance in it's past. I would also expect a Retro name since Malibu and Impala are in play. Note the name is already has been picked out so it is a name GM already has the rights too since no one has caught GM picking a new name out.

    Chevelle would play well but the negitive is there is already a Malibu. Another name is Monte Carlo but the negitive there is the purist will point out there never was a 4 door Monte Carlo. Note the name has a long Nascar history and the Charger was two door only too but today was well accepted as a 4 door and is in NASCAR.

    I also have some long shots of Biscayne or Belair but the main focus is that the name is already picked and we should expect a name from the past that has had some performance heritage to it. Also let the nunber of doors issue drop as it matters little to the MFG and the General public if the new car is up to the task. We know what the G8 GXP could do and this car will be an improved version of that.

    My guess is Chevelle or Monte Carlo. Note Chevy has has a long love affair for the Monte in NASCAR as it is the model for them with the most wins. The Chevelle also has been a name that has not been used in years that was a very popular model that did have a good off track street performance image.

    What ever the name I would like to see the performance package call a Z11. This one has not been used for a long time and would work well with the ZR1 and ZL1. Or with the return of the Z28 later. Chev could offer a top level performance line and just use the Z with each.

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    If Chevy could put the ZL1 engine in a RWD Impala, I could see a legitimate nameplate of 'Z11'.

    Not sure a 300-esque HP car with lower body skirts & 1" larger rims is worth sullying the heritage, otherwise; just make up some other Zxx moniker.

    Like 'Z05' (or half of a Z11). ;)

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    If I was to guess, I'd imagine GM would pervert the Monte Carlo name onto a 4 door... and it certainly has NASCAR cachet. From the hints dropped, I'd think the name hadn't disappeared for long enough for it to be 'NEW' again.

    Chevelle, I'm not too sure on anymore. Its been gone for so long, that its remembered by the musclecar set... but not by the average NASCAR fan. I also have too many mixed feelings about it coming back.

    It would be nice if the new car came out as a coupe.

    I kinda hope its something completely new, but not Chevrolet SS.

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    If Chevy could put the ZL1 engine in a RWD Impala, I could see a legitimate nameplate of 'Z11'.

    Not sure a 300-esque HP car with lower body skirts & 1" larger rims is worth sullying the heritage, otherwise; just make up some other Zxx moniker.

    Like 'Z05' (or half of a Z11). ;)

    The Car will be RWD and will be no less than 430 HP. I know it will be more with the new DI V8 that is coming than the present SS Camaro.

    Like I said think G8 GXP only improved. From what I saw the G8 GT's and GXP's were doing at the Pontiac nationals in the quarter mile it will bring more to the table than any Impala SS ever has. It will go stop and turn unlike any Impala ever offered.

    In house GM they call it the 4 door Camaro to give the idea of what kind of performance to expect.

    As for the pissing and moaning on the name and number of doors Just be glad to get anything RWD that will perform to the level this car will. This car will not so much be a profit center but it will reflect well over the rest of the Chevy line. It will add the cool factor to todays Chevy line up. It will help add to Chevy what was missing for a long time from Pontiac till near the end Real Perfomance in a package that on par with todays market.

    Like it or not the market that fully accepts the sedan as the car of choice anymore.

    Edited by hyperv6
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    Like it or not the market that fully accepts the sedan as the car of choice anymore.

    That's because the young are mostly priced out of the new car market and the ones who can afford it are 30 going on 75.

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    I have no problem w/ it being a 4dr. 2drs are just too impractical to consider for a daily driver...the long doors make getting in and out a pain in tight parking, make a pain to load people or content into the back seat, etc. 4dr sports sedans (everything from the CTS to G8 to the Charger to BMWs) have been a hot niche for a long time, nice to see Chevy getting one again...

    In a world of boring, vanilla FWD generic appliances, it's nice to see a few good, real RWD V8 cars still being offered...

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    As for the pissing and moaning on the name and number of doors Just be glad to get anything RWD that will perform to the level this car will.

    The car is coming regardless, and yet there's still room to discuss the minutiae of the car. How about that.

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    Like it or not the market that fully accepts the sedan as the car of choice anymore.

    That's because the young are mostly priced out of the new car market and the ones who can afford it are 30 going on 75.

    It is the older that want the coupes and the younger that want the sedans.

    I see it all the time where kids today want the sedan over any coupe. It is the opposite of what it used to be years ago. Most also want 4 cylinders too. They young today have less and less love for cars and see them more as transportation. This is why I feel we are lucky to get what we are getting. Where it was once true everyone pined fo a SS coupe today most are happy with the Vanilla appliance.

    Therer are still some under 40 that love perormance but it is no where like it used to be. JUst look at any high School or collage parking lot.

    Dealing with performance parts I see it globally. Our average buyer is at least 50 year old.This is much older than it ever was.

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    The only reason the average buyer of new cars is at least 50 is because a lot of people under 40 CANNOT afford a new car. Median car prices are at $30,000 ---- that is too high for a lot of working people. Their best options are to either lease a new car or buy an off-lease for about 20% off or buy a used car. Of course Large RWD cars have a future: they would have an even better future if they are well-equipped at $25K rather than $35K. (N.B. The 300/Charger twins do start around $25K, but they are much better equipped at $35K.) I do hope that the new RWD Chevy sedan starts well equipped at $25K, which would allow Buick to have a $40K RWD flagship (to go against the Genesis and higher-end 300S).

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    I'd say there's just as much of a chance of GM keeping the Commodore name for the Chevy sports sedan as there is seeing it badged as a Monte Carlo.

    Personally, I couldn't care less what they call it. They could call it the Chevrolet al-Qaeda D-Train Express and I'd probably still like it.

    I have no problem w/ it being a 4dr. 2drs are just too impractical to consider for a daily driver...the long doors make getting in and out a pain in tight parking, make a pain to load people or content into the back seat, etc.

    Aside from the Cherokee — which I never got to use as a daily driver — and the Dakota — which I don't honestly consider to be my vehicle — all I've owned are two-door vehicles and I've never had any issues with practicality or parking.

    The extended length of a coupe's doors aren't just for form, they're also there to aid in getting people in and out of the back seat. I also have a habit of parking slightly away from everyone else to prevent total assholes from dinging up my car, so I've never worried about tight parking spaces.

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    Like it or not the market that fully accepts the sedan as the car of choice anymore.

    That's because the young are mostly priced out of the new car market and the ones who can afford it are 30 going on 75.

    I guess you don't know may young people with money. Those I know and deal with at work love Evo's WRX and 3 Series sedans. They would want nothing other than a perfromance sedan. If offered a WRX sean or new Camaro many today would take the 4 cylinder sedan at the same price.

    We have many 20 somethings at work and they are paid well. Many have new cars and the only coupes I can recall is one 2012 Mustang GT. 2010 Mini and a 2010 Lotus. The rest are new sedans or SUV's.

    Same goes for our customers. 20 years ago it was nothing but Mustangs and F bodies with a good mix of street rods and Muscle cars. Today Imports are a large part of the market and seldom are the owners over 40 years old unless he put a SBC in a RX7.

    The truth is the market for new and old performance cars is getting more and more limited. Even the older people will not pay the money wanted for many models old or new. The price of the performance market is no longer cheap to buy the car anymore.

    We have a genenration and a half that grew up in imports. Most were 4 door Honda's and Toyotas that mom and dad drove. They have no issue with the changes in less cylinders, being an import and many don't even have a great love for performance.

    It was just made clear the new direction Ford is taking with the Mustang. While some see it as a risk I think it is one that will pay off in global sales. Not everyone is roots so deep in the past they have to sit around in parking lots a driveins on weekends with cars they did not build listening to a bad Elvis impersonator. Been there seen it and in some cases it is pretty sad.

    Just go to a Wal mart or Target and see who is buying all the Hot Wheels. These stores should move the Hot Wheels to the Hardware section as most buying them are over 30 years old or older.

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    The only reason the average buyer of new cars is at least 50 is because a lot of people under 40 CANNOT afford a new car. Median car prices are at $30,000 ---- that is too high for a lot of working people. Their best options are to either lease a new car or buy an off-lease for about 20% off or buy a used car. Of course Large RWD cars have a future: they would have an even better future if they are well-equipped at $25K rather than $35K. (N.B. The 300/Charger twins do start around $25K, but they are much better equipped at $35K.) I do hope that the new RWD Chevy sedan starts well equipped at $25K, which would allow Buick to have a $40K RWD flagship (to go against the Genesis and higher-end 300S).

    There are many younger people able to afford these cars like a Camaro even at the inflated prices. They just do not have the same love for coupes as dear old dad. Times and taste have changed with the new Generations. The market has shifted.

    The New Chevy will be $37,000-44,000. It will be V8 only and it will come pretty much loaded. It is going to be low volume and will make it up with price. Think at least G8 GXP price or higher.

    Note the going rate of the Buick GS and the new Chevy will be higher priced than it.

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    I'd say there's just as much of a chance of GM keeping the Commodore name for the Chevy sports sedan as there is seeing it badged as a Monte Carlo.

    Personally, I couldn't care less what they call it. They could call it the Chevrolet al-Qaeda D-Train Express and I'd probably still like it.

    I have no problem w/ it being a 4dr. 2drs are just too impractical to consider for a daily driver...the long doors make getting in and out a pain in tight parking, make a pain to load people or content into the back seat, etc.

    Aside from the Cherokee — which I never got to use as a daily driver — and the Dakota — which I don't honestly consider to be my vehicle — all I've owned are two-door vehicles and I've never had any issues with practicality or parking.

    The extended length of a coupe's doors aren't just for form, they're also there to aid in getting people in and out of the back seat. I also have a habit of parking slightly away from everyone else to prevent total assholes from dinging up my car, so I've never worried about tight parking spaces.

    It's still easier to get in and out of the back seat w/ a 4dr than a 2dr.

    I've owned/ driven a mix of 2 doors (Mustangs, BMW M3, Merc 300CE, Bronco) and 4drs over the years but I find I prefer a 4dr in daily use. And with assigned underground parking at work, space to open the door is a premium for me... being able to park away from everyone else isn't always possible in the city...I'll always want to have a 2dr or two, though.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    Who has what in the parking lot at work fails to reach 'meaningful'.

    This is besides the fact that who gets into Car X may not have actually bought Car X (vs. a parent).

    Figures for age breakdown as of 2009 show pretty even tallies for every 5 yr bracket, IE: 15-19, 20-24, 25-29, etc. at between 19M and 22M.

    Every 5 yr bracket is very comparable WRT to totals from age 15 thru age 59... yet the average buyer age is still 50.

    It's certainly not an issue of population breakdown WRT ABA...

    Edited by balthazar
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    Who has what in the parking lot at work fails to reach 'meaningful'.

    This is besides the fact that who gets into Car X may not have actually bought Car X (vs. a parent).

    Figures for age breakdown as of 2009 show pretty even tallies for every 5 yr bracket, IE: 15-19, 20-24, 25-29, etc. at between 19M and 22M.

    Every 5 yr bracket is very comparable WRT to totals from age 15 thru age 59... yet the average buyer age is still 50.

    It's certainly not an issue of population breakdown WRT ABA...

    Like it or not Sedans are the choice of the majority. Years ago you would never have seen a 4 door model on a NASCAR track, You wouyld have never seen a 4 Door in NHRA Pro Strock or Funny Car classe. You would have never seen such excitment in the Austrailan and Euro sedan racing series. Years ago you would never have considered Pontiac dropping a Coupe GP and only selling a Sedan with coupe sales dropping to a point it was not worth the effort anymore. THe MFG are marketing what is selling to top the others in sales of sedans.

    While there is a place in some classes for a coupe the universal appeal is no longer there like it once was. GM and most MFG will offer a coupe coupes but it would be stupid to offer one in every model offered as in the past. Car size and acceptance of the styling has rendered the coupe a much more limted market.

    Chevy already has a Zeta coupe in the Camaro so what would the point be in offering another? If you wanted to do another coupe the smart move would be to offer it as a Buick in a larger upscale coupe slotted under the CTS and over the Camaro but even then sales would be limited.

    I could see a small Alpha Chevy coupe but it has to be functional with a good back seat and trunk. It also need styling that is well accepted and not as polaizing as the 130R. It could be done with the use of the Alpha and sharing parts with the Camaro and ATS. It also could free the Camaro to be a little less practical and a little more sporty.

    As for your numbers of WRX or EVO. If you watch and learn what the younger gens want and like even those who do not own a new one try to buy used or just pine away for these cars. Many easily reject the Mustang and Camaro. In years past one that age would be branded a heretic.

    Like it or not the sedan today is the dominate vehicles with most car owners of all ages. Even if you look at the pick up and SUV markets people are buying more for usability as well as style. In the past they would toss practical for style. Hell today people complain if there are poor cup holders NS pooe trunk in a sports car like the Kappa. If the Cobra came out today one has to wonder if it would survive in todays market. Many would reject it as it would be seen as too basic, impractical, and uncomfortable.

    Edited by hyperv6
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    There is another reason sedans are the choice for most everyone: coupes have higher insurance rates. That has been true since at least 1970. I am not sure that a $37K Chevy performance sedan with a Camaro ZL1 V8 is feasible by itself. There will have to be a V6 version too. As for the Camaro, a quick lookup at cars.com show that the Camaro starts at $25K and tops out at $45K. That is a far more reasonable range for the Chevy performance sedan than $37-44K. While there are young drivers who can afford a new Camaro at current prices, GM would be unwise to leave new sales on the table by NOT providing Camaro-like performance in a sedan. Those young drivers are the exception, not the rule.

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    I guess you don't know may young people with money. Those I know and deal with at work love Evo's WRX and 3 Series sedans. They would want nothing other than a perfromance sedan. If offered a WRX sean or new Camaro many today would take the 4 cylinder sedan at the same price.

    Good ASSumption. Many of the 20/30 somethings I work with have drinking tabs with more numbers in them than your new SUV cost. Few of them have cars... I remember one recently got a 911 GT3. A few have garbage cars, as they don't care what they drive, as long as they can maximize the rest of their lifestyle. One bought a Fit because it was the cheapest Honda he could get.

    We have many 20 somethings at work and they are paid well. Many have new cars and the only coupes I can recall is one 2012 Mustang GT. 2010 Mini and a 2010 Lotus. The rest are new sedans or SUV's.

    And generally, well employed 20 year olds are outnumbered by 20 year old who are suffering during the recessions... the same people reported elsewhere in a thread here to not care to even own a car. The bottom line is that the average age is 50... and therefore, the 50 year olds are calling the shots... which means there is something wrong with the auto industry. The industry claims to be making "activity vehicles" and such... then the 50 year olds buy 'em.

    Apparently Bunkie never considered that you CAN sell an old man's car to a young man if nothing else is affordable.

    I always looked at sedans as a compromise... and I can't figure out why anyone would want two extra useless doors and giant B-pillar blind spots at 10 and 2 o'clock if you never have anyone riding in the backseat. Might as well have a 6 or 8 door... "just in case". Of course, I still see that some people prefer them... but its shortsighted to not offer coupes in more car lines.

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    Citing NASCAR is equally as relevant as the parking lot @ work.

    NASCAR used 2-drs because they were lighter (plus they were available).

    After circa 1980, it was merely tradition (hence the Taurus 2-dr).

    Automakers need to condense the number of model lines and offer more body styles. It's fiscal madness to offer a dozen sedans each separated by a half foot in overall length.

    There's simply no specific, quantifiable demand for so many steps on the ladder. Simplify the offerings and there's more room for more variants. The pick-up teams understand this completely.

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    Citing NASCAR is equally as relevant as the parking lot @ work.

    NASCAR used 2-drs because they were lighter (plus they were available).

    After circa 1980, it was merely tradition (hence the Taurus 2-dr).

    Automakers need to condense the number of model lines and offer more body styles. It's fiscal madness to offer a dozen sedans each separated by a half foot in overall length.

    There's simply no specific, quantifiable demand for so many steps on the ladder. Simplify the offerings and there's more room for more variants. The pick-up teams understand this completely.

    Economics I agree play a part it is how they come to terms on what to cut.

    If the coupe was in such high demand they would still build one for every model line. They are the model that pulled the short straw in production numbers and often they are the one that met the axe as buyers needs ands wants changed.

    If there was enough demand and if they were bringin enough money in to show are sizable profit they would be built.

    The demand for sedans are a global thing too. While there are couped offered they have become limited over the years elsewhere as they have here.

    I never owned a car with 4 doors till 1997 with my SSEI..All I had before that either has 2 doors and some only had 2 seats. I take that back my first car was a 63 Galxie sedan. I bought it off an old lady for $500 and it still had the original exhaust on it. I hated the car as in High School everyone wanted to take my car because I could take 6-7 people in it easy.

    Again the market has shifted no matter if it is the lower demand for coupes to the very low take rate on standard transmissions. Times change buyers expectations chane. Who in 1970 would have expected one of the strongest markets would be FWD/AWD small tall wagons called compact SUV's?

    Today we have 4 door Prosches, Lambo has not given up on their sedan Jag is mostly sedans now and Aston makes a sedan. Even those who were nothing but coupes have moved out into the sedan market. Give credit to Ferrari as they are holding out but Fiat has already a Maserati sedan that out sells the coupe so they can get by with that.

    What needs to be watched is the new Mustang as while the Pony car have evolved the new Mustang is going to see some radical changes in 2014. It may not be a sedan but I expect we will see things in this coupe not offered before in a Mustang to help with usability. Smaller engines with the same power and much less weight will also play into this. Retro on this car is out the door. It will remain to be seen how this will effect the cars appeal. If done well it may only expand sales as Ford expects. Again The markets are changing and for many the past holds little interest anyl onger. I am not a fan of many of the changes but I am only one small voice in a sea of others that have no issue with the changes.

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    I always looked at sedans as a compromise... and I can't figure out why anyone would want two extra useless doors and giant B-pillar blind spots at 10 and 2 o'clock if you never have anyone riding in the backseat. Might as well have a 6 or 8 door... "just in case". Of course, I still see that some people prefer them... but its shortsighted to not offer coupes in more car lines.

    Thanks for this quote as it really shows how out of touch you are with the average car buyer. The majority of the people who buy em use em.

    I take it you never had to put a car seat in the back of a 05 GTO or 2011 Camaro before? Or you never had to wait till kids squeezed into a back seat while you are standing in the rain waitig? Also my C pillars in my coupes were all greater blind spots than any sedan B pillar. That is why I am so good with mirrors today.

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    ^ yeah, but not everyone has kids, hyper.

    True enough. I don't have kids, but I like both 4drs and 2drs. I don't have an irrational response to 4drs that some have.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    'Large Americans' I can see having issues with both 2- & 4-drs.

    The '60 Bonne flattop I have in the back right now is surprisingly tight to get into the rear seat, and it's on a 126" wheelbase.

    I find getting in the back of my '59 Invicta 2-dr easier (123" WB)... but I'm not of the size caliber many of you folk are.

    I watched the guy I bought it from, barely able to get his head inside. I think he's about 6'4" or maybe 6'5".

    But what many by default call 'full size' today is pretty pathetically sized, IMO.

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    'Large Americans' I can see having issues with both 2- & 4-drs.

    The '60 Bonne flattop I have in the back right now is surprisingly tight to get into the rear seat, and it's on a 126" wheelbase.

    I find getting in the back of my '59 Invicta 2-dr easier (123" WB)... but I'm not of the size caliber many of you folk are.

    I watched the guy I bought it from, barely able to get his head inside. I think he's about 6'4" or maybe 6'5".

    But what many by default call 'full size' today is pretty pathetically sized, IMO.

    That is so true, I am average size for my family. Smallest one is my middle sister at a tiny 5' 8" and then 2nd smallest is my oldest sister at 6' 2" and then all the guys are around my size so I can understand the whole pathetic size of todays full size compared to a 76 Oldmobile Delta 88 :D That baby I loved with room to spare. :D

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    Thanks for this quote as it really shows how out of touch you are with the average car buyer. The majority of the people who buy em use em.

    I take it you never had to put a car seat in the back of a 05 GTO or 2011 Camaro before? Or you never had to wait till kids squeezed into a back seat while you are standing in the rain waitig? Also my C pillars in my coupes were all greater blind spots than any sedan B pillar. That is why I am so good with mirrors today.

    You're clearly mentally handicapped with your logic. Most of my friends driving sedans drive solo, almost always. First, as Balthy noted, not everybody has kids. Second, kids spend only about 20% of their childhood in car seats. I grew up in coupes. Period. Our family did not get a sedan in the 'family' until I bought my '99 Bonneville in 2003. Putting car seats in the rear of the car was not a problem. Getting in the backseat of the car in the rain was never a problem. As a 6'4" 300lb teenager, I had no problem jumping into the rear of the '74 Nova, '81 Cutlass, '69 Firebird, '70 Tempest... probably more, I can't recall.

    I don't question that some people use them, but I just don't see it. I can't get into most sedan backseats smaller than a W-body. My feet don't fit in the floorwell... or I have to side sideways.

    OTOH, I spent a day recently putting children in car seats in the back of the GF's Corolla (about the only time in 5 years, I have observed the rear seats used)... it was a PITA. The roofline is low, so removing the kids from the seats involved bending them so you didn't remove their heads... and trying to close the buckles was difficult, as I had to stoop, jammed near the door's hinges to see whats going on... don't want to get any child parts caught in those buckles.

    My parents had a good reasoning for putting us in the back seat of a coupe... we weren't likely to open the door and fall out. The children I had in the backseat were already reaching for the window switches and door handles while they were in the child seats. Sure, there are child locks... but they can be a hassle... so are window lockouts. Back in the days before everything had power locks, ensuring all the doors were locked was a PITA. Back in the '80s two people I knew with sedans had people jump into the backseat at traffic lights... thinking it was a taxi! That's not secure to me.

    Finally, you are comparing the blindspots created by the B-pillars to the blindspots created by the C-pillars. The problem with your logic is that I'm not sitting behind the C-pillars. The B-pillars are blocking my ability to look left and right at a intersection. And sitting behind the B-pillars is not unique to me... most of my taller friends and family end up sitting behind the B-pillar. I can only imagine in a T-bone accident how much of my skull will be ripped open by the B-pillar and seat belt harness. I know how to use my mirrors to see around the C-pillars fine... where do you suggest I install extra mirrors so I can see to my left?

    I stand by my words. Useless doors. Safety issues... added parts... and subpar functionality, even for loading stuff into the car. And still, a styling ugliness... but I leave styling out, as its too subjective.

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    Most of my friends driving sedans drive solo, almost always.

    Actually, you do have a point. When I'm sitting in traffic in a more urban area, sometimes I'll sneak glances at who's inside of the cars around me. Okay, that might be a creepy habit, who knows, who cares. Anyway, I'd say about 6 out of every 10 four-door vehicles I see have only one person in them and that's the meat in the seat who's driving it (also usually blabbering on a cell phone, but anyway).

    I mean, my mother drives a sedan and she almost never has any other passengers in her car besides herself, with the exception of my father when they take trips out of town. She has four doors and very little use for two of them, honestly.

    I grew up in coupes. Period. Our family did not get a sedan in the 'family' until I bought my '99 Bonneville in 2003. Putting car seats in the rear of the car was not a problem. Getting in the backseat of the car in the rain was never a problem.

    Ditto that. I spent well over half of my childhood climbing in and out of the backseat of a Chevrolet Cavalier coupe. I used to be a scrawny toothpick of a kid, so it certainly wasn't any hassle for me.

    I don't question that some people use them, but I just don't see it.

    Agreed. I think people buy sedans by the pantload because it stems from them seeing a feature — four-doors, four-wheel drive, you know the drill — and think "Oh, it's nice to have that handy" not considering how much use they'll actually get out of it.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand buying something practical, honest I do. Some households need a sedan in the driveway. But there are a lot of instances where a practical sedan is really impractical because what it offers simply isn't needed.

    Anyway, I'll leave it at this; while I prefer a two-door coupe or three-door hatchback, I'm not irrational to a car with four-doors. I'd never throw a Jeep or some sort of wagon out of my driveway.

    Edited by black-knight
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