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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    EV Tax Credit Survives Tax Bill Reconciliation

      The credit of up to $7,500 remains untouched.

    As lawmakers continue to work on comprehensive tax reform, one item related to the automotive industry on the table was the tax credit for electric vehicles.  The credit, which can be up to $7,500, was dropped in the House version of the bill but kept in the Senate version.   The credit was started in 2009 as part of the economic stimulus package as a way to encourage investment by auto manufacturers in the development of electric powered or assisted vehicles.  The the current version of the bill in reconciliation keeps the credit.  Analysts estimate that scrapping the credit would save $200 million over the next 10 years. 

    The credit is capped at 200,000 qualifying vehicle per manufacturer, which no automaker has yet reached. Most manufacturers have announced billions of dollars in investment for sweeping changes to their lineups with many models gaining plug-in hybrid variants over the next 5 to 7 years.

    Related: GM Launching 20 EVs by 2023



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    10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    "Analysts estimate that scrapping the credit would save $200 million over the next 10 years. "  :scratchchin:

    Yeah, save $20 million (or 6 POTUS Golf trips) a year in taxpayer money , potentially lose billions in EV development and investment.

    There is a phrase for cutting this tax credit.... it is called being "Penny wise and Pound Foolish"

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    Just now, ccap41 said:

    Why would we lose billions in development and investment? 

    The already limited demand for EVs dries up, no longer a reason to invest.   

    When EV tax credit in Georgia ended, sales there cratered.

    If you need an existing example, when many state tax credits for residential solar power dried up, the US solar manufacturing and installation industry cratered and now most solar panels and solar development is done in China. 

    Since China and Europe are continuing to push for EVs, I would expect all R&D to move there.... along with all of the peripheral development on batteries. 

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    So the loss of billions is income taxes on corporations developing? Because I would not be losing money, you would not be losing money, and the $200m could be invested other places that need funding. 

    Either way, it's whatever. It's over and done with for now so hopefully people buy up EV's with our tax dollars. 

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    Well you have to think on a macro scale. $20 million is less than a penny of your taxes.  But the investment by those companies represents billions in payroll and high paying jobs. More jobs in the US means higher pay on average (usually).  Having just a slightly tighter job market means you get more than your penny back in better wages.

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    Take this quote:

    20 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Since China and Europe are continuing to push for EVs, I would expect all R&D to move there.... along with all of the peripheral development on batteries. 

     

    And rebuttal that quote this way:

    11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    So the loss of billions is income taxes on corporations developing? Because I would not be losing money, you would not be losing money, and the $200m could be invested other places that need funding. 

     

    which is a fair and decent way to counter.

    But...dont be a-cryin' when jobs in your country are that much less and the "real" jobs are leaving to go to to  "foreign" lands. Dont be a-complainin' about your Presidential leaders not doin' enough to create "new" jobs and dont be a-fussin' and yellin' that the country needs more education in schools...and that your country needs to bring back manufacturin' jobs...

     

     

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    12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Well you have to think on a macro scale. $20 million is less than a penny of your taxes.  But the investment by those companies represents billions in payroll and high paying jobs. More jobs in the US means higher pay on average (usually).  Having just a slightly tighter job market means you get more than your penny back in better wages.

    Alright, I can agree with it in that sense. 

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    If the EV credit is preventing sales from 'cratering', are not Tesla and GM teetering on such a cratering in 2018 when their credits begin to ratchet down? What manufacturer is going to spend 'billions' to sell 200K units all at a loss, then see that segment cease to exist??

    No; OEM EV development is not tied to the tax credits the purchaser sees. OEMS are betting on future sales to continue to grow & spread. Their foresight reaches well beyond 2018 here. IF the credit were immedaitely killed, development would continue unabated.

    - - - - -

    At this point, talking about keeping/killing the EV credit is largely inconsequential- those talking about it on the Hill are evoking ideology, not financials. So wish it were the other way around, in general.

     

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    These tax credits are going to expire in a few years, by 2020 most car makers will have used up their 200,000 units anyway.  So it doesn't really matter too much if they keep it in or out.  Even if they get this tax bill passed, it don't know if it would even take effect next year, the government does nothing fast.

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    15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    But...dont be a-cryin' when jobs in your country are that much less and the "real" jobs are leaving to go to to  "foreign" lands. Dont be a-complainin' about your Presidential leaders not doin' enough to create "new" jobs and dont be a-fussin' and yellin' that the country needs more education in schools...and that your country needs to bring back manufacturin' jobs...

     

     

    Quoted for truth...given our limited ability to invest and think for the future, we will never regain a meaningful lead.

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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    These tax credits are going to expire in a few years, by 2020 most car makers will have used up their 200,000 units anyway.  So it doesn't really matter too much if they keep it in or out.  Even if they get this tax bill passed, it don't know if it would even take effect next year, the government does nothing fast.

    They don't go away at 200k units. It then gets cut in half to $3750 for another 200k units then cut in half again for the remaining 200k units before completely expiring. 

    Edited by ccap41
    bad math.. lol

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    31 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    They don't go away at 200k units. It then gets cut in half to $3750 for another 200k units then cut in half again for the remaining 200k units before completely expiring. 

    Not quite. I believe what happens is that after 200K units are sold, it drops 50% to $3750 the second quarter after the 200K mark is hit. The 4th quarter after the 200K mark it hit it drops to 25% ($1875).

    So after the 200K mark is hit, the credit switches to a quarterly-based timetable vs. production volume.

    EVC.png

    That makes sense if the idea is to 'get EV sales rolling'.

    I still feel that there are a HUGE quantity of Model 3 depositers that were counting heavily on $7500 off of the announced $35K = a '$28K Tesla mini Model S'.

    Edited by balthazar
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    Balth, you're only thinking about profitability right now.  GM, Porsche, Volvo have all said that they expect their next round of EVs to be profitable.  The tax credit helps tide over sales until that point.   In that regard, the tax credit is doing exactly what it set out to do... prime the pump of EV infrastructure from the supply side.   With all of the investment to ramp up production of electrified vehicles, the unit costs for manufacturers will come down.   It took those subsidies to bring residential solar to the the point where it was on par with fossil fuel generation and the same is taking shape for EVs.  Just a few more years and it will be there. 

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    Couple of thoughts here...the $200 million is about 70 cents for every American to keep our auto industry relevant.  If you don't want to spend 70 cents for each member of your household to keep our auto industry relevant than I really, really hope you enjoy it when you are buying Euro and Asian iron because American auto industry is no longer relevant.

    Also, if you want to do actual costs, I will play that game also. Put the costs of escorting tankers through the gulf and the costs of our interventions in the middle east...and the environmental costs, the actual environmental costs....on to a gallon of fuel.

    Do that, and when Diesel is $22.50 a gallon Balthazar and OCNblu will use a "Tesla" electrical tow truck to move a certain Duramax and a certain Jeep into the scrap metal yard, because they will have lost all relevance as transportation.

    3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Balth, you're only thinking about profitability right now.  GM, Porsche, Volvo have all said that they expect their next round of EVs to be profitable.  The tax credit helps tide over sales until that point.   In that regard, the tax credit is doing exactly what it set out to do... prime the pump of EV infrastructure from the supply side.   With all of the investment to ramp up production of electrified vehicles, the unit costs for manufacturers will come down.   It took those subsidies to bring residential solar to the the point where it was on par with fossil fuel generation and the same is taking shape for EVs.  Just a few more years and it will be there. 

    At some point, a tipping point will be reached and their will be no going back. Same thing happened moving from Ocean liners to Air transport in the 1950's.  When the Andrea Doria sank in 1956, she was only a couple of years away from loosing relevance. By 1958 more people crossed the Atlantic by Air, and the Ocean liners have never come back.

    Edited by A Horse With No Name
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    3 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Not quite. I believe what happens is that after 200K units are sold, it drops 50% to $3750 the second quarter after the 200K mark is hit. The 4th quarter after the 200K mark it hit it drops to 25% ($1875).

    So after the 200K mark is hit, the credit switches to a quarterly-based timetable vs. production volume.

    EVC.png

    That makes sense if the idea is to 'get EV sales rolling'.

    I still feel that there are a HUGE quantity of Model 3 depositers that were counting heavily on $7500 off of the announced $35K = a '$28K Tesla mini Model S'.

    There are.  Given the cost in blood and toil in importing oil, as well as the environmental costs I would quite happily make the subsides permanent. It would be far cheaper.

    For a small portion of our national defense budget we could electrify the transportation in major cities. Go one major city at a time and do away with say 60 percent of the fossil fuel vehicles.  In a few years, we could make major progress.

    Do the same thing with Coal fired Power plants also.

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    34 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Couple of thoughts here...the $200 million is about 70 cents for every American to keep our auto industry relevant.  If you don't want to spend 70 cents for each member of your household to keep our auto industry relevant than I really, really hope you enjoy it when you are buying Euro and Asian iron because American auto industry is no longer relevant.

    Also, if you want to do actual costs, I will play that game also. Put the costs of escorting tankers through the gulf and the costs of our interventions in the middle east...and the environmental costs, the actual environmental costs....on to a gallon of fuel.

    Do that, and when Diesel is $22.50 a gallon Balthazar and OCNblu will use a "Tesla" electrical tow truck to move a certain Duramax and a certain Jeep into the scrap metal yard, because they will have lost all relevance as transportation.

    At some point, a tipping point will be reached and their will be no going back. Same thing happened moving from Ocean liners to Air transport in the 1950's.  When the Andrea Doria sank in 1956, she was only a couple of years away from loosing relevance. By 1958 more people crossed the Atlantic by Air, and the Ocean liners have never come back.

    Interesting about the True Cost of Oil for Gas as I was just looking into this myself and the IAGS, Institute for the Analysis of Global Security states that right now just for the Persian Gulf Military escorts of Oil around the gulf and out of it, the yearly cost is about $50 Billion.

    While we might pay anywhere from $3 to $5 dollars a gallon, our real cost if all the costs were passed onto ICE owners would be in the $20 to $30 dollar a gallon range.

    http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html

    This alone is an amazing quote from them:

    Our dependency on oil from countries that are either politically unstable or at odds with the U.S. subjects the American economy to occasional supply disruptions, price hikes, and loss of wealth, which, according to a study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Energy, have cost us more than $7 trillion present value dollars over the last 30 years. That is more than the cumulative cost of all of the wars fought by the U.S. since the Revolutionary War. The transfer of wealth to oil-producing countries - $1.16 trillion over the past thirty years - significantly increased our trade deficit. The Department of Energy estimates that each $1 billion of trade deficit costs America 27,000 jobs. Oil imports account for almost one-third of the total U.S. deficit and, hence, are a major contributor to unemployment. 

     

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    1 : I take all OEM announcements with a 5lb bag of salt. Case in point: Tesla, in general.

    2 : The credits, or the suspension of such, is a discussion for now... when EVs become profitable is in the future. I expect at some point for them to be profitable, yes. But OEM R&D expenditures must also be tabulated in any overall discussion of profitability, and those are huge and running counter to economies of scale. We'll see. I'll state again- at this point I have no issue with EV credits- the cat is out of the bag & well down the street.

    3 : diesel will never see $22.50... or $10/gal anytime in the next 20 years. EV's (painfully slow) expansion takes demand off of diesel/gas, increasing supply. The wildcard is the reduction of production. Keep in mind that the $140/barrel was purely speculative- I don't think we're going to see such a market focus on petroleum again. Investors are forward looking, and idealogically, "EV power is the future".

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      Press Release is on Page 2


      LYRIQ Show Car Leads Cadillac Into Electric Future
      The brand’s first all-electric vehicle introduces a new era in luxury, technology and zero-tailpipe-emissions performance Cadillac’s introduction of its electric portfolio begins today with the debut of the LYRIQ show car — a dynamic, modern and fully electric luxury crossover. 
      The propulsion system and supporting technologies position Cadillac to be a leader in electrification, connectivity and automated driving, all delivered with thrilling performance and a new threshold in technology integration.
      “Led by LYRIQ, Cadillac will redefine American luxury over the next decade with a new portfolio of transformative EVs,” said Steve Carlisle, executive vice president and president, GM North America. “We will deliver experiences that engage the senses, anticipate desires and enable our customers to go on extraordinary journeys.”
      The LYRIQ is based on GM’s next-generation, modular electric vehicle platform and driven by the Ultium propulsion system, allowing Cadillac to deliver customers a variety of range and performance options. With range being one of the biggest factors when it comes to selecting an EV, we’re designing LYRIQ to offer beyond 300 miles of range on a full charge, based on internal testing1. Performance and technology highlights include:
      Charging options that fit a variety of preferences for home, the workplace and on the road — including DC fast charging rates over 150 kilowatts and Level 2 charging rates up to 19 kW2. Rear-wheel drive and performance all-wheel drive configurations. The latest version of Super Cruise3, the industry’s first truly hands-free driver assistance feature, available on more than 200,000 miles of compatible highways and recently enhanced to include automated lane change. New technologies such as dual-plane augmented reality-enhanced head-up display and remote self-parking. The brand’s most seamless and adaptive technology interaction with the driver and passengers, including the latest Cadillac user experience, which is showcased in a 33-inch-diagonal advanced LED screen the spans the entire viewing area of the driver. “LYRIQ was conceived to make every journey exhilarating and leverages more than a century of innovation to drive the brand into a new era, while rewarding passengers with a more personal, connected and immersive experience,” said Jamie Brewer, Cadillac LYRIQ chief engineer. “To do this we developed an architecture specifically for EVs.  It is not only an exceptional EV, but first and foremost a Cadillac.”
      LIBERATING PERFORMANCE
      Some luxury EVs today feature adapted traditional internal combustion engine architecture, that is not the case with LYRIQ. Cadillac’s all-new, modular EV platform on which the LYRIQ is based is the foundation for its liberating performance. With a dedicated EV architecture, its design eliminates significant physical constraints associated with adapting electric propulsion within a conventional vehicle architecture, for an optimized design that supports greater driving range, an engaging driving experience and a new interpretation of passenger space.
      Within the LYRIQ, the Ultium battery system is a structural element of the architecture, integrated in ways that contribute to ride and handling, as well as safety. In fact, the lower center of gravity and near 50/50 weight distribution enabled by the placement of the battery pack results in a vehicle that’s sporty, responsive and allows for spirited driving.
      Additionally, the LYRIQ is driven primarily by the rear wheels, with a performance all-wheel drive option available. The placement of the drive motor at the rear of the vehicle contributes an even greater feeling of balance and agility — attributes that affirm Cadillac’s longstanding commitment to satisfying performance. It also enables the system to channel more torque to the pavement without wheelspin for exhilarating acceleration and greater cornering capability. Vehicles equipped with performance all-wheel drive go a step further, with a second drive unit placed at the front of the vehicle, which allows for a significant amount of tuning flexibility, enhancing vehicle dynamics and performance for drivers.
      ALL-NEW ULTIUM BATTERY SYSTEM
      The Cadillac LYRIQ is powered by GM’s new Ultium battery system, which offers approximately 100 kilowatt-hours of energy to deliver stirring performance.
      Ultium’s state-of-the-art NCMA (nickel-cobalt-manganese-aluminum) chemistry uses aluminum in the cathode to help reduce the need for rare-earth materials such as cobalt. In fact, GM engineers reduced the cobalt content by more than 70 percent, compared to current GM batteries.
      The advanced battery chemistry is packed in large, flat pouch cells that enable smart module construction to reduce complexity and simplify cooling needs. Additionally, the battery electronics are incorporated directly into the modules, eliminating nearly 90 percent of the battery pack wiring, compared to GM’s current electric vehicles. 
      When it comes to charging, LYRIQ offers quick and convenient charging options whether at home or on the go. With DC fast charging, the LYRIQ can charge at rates over 150 kW. 
      ARTFULLY INTEGRATED TECHNOLOGY
      Envisioned to make interaction with its technologies more intuitive and rewarding, the LYRIQ’s partnership with the driver and passengers is simultaneously energizing and artful.
      Upon approach, the LYRIQ recognizes the driver and initiates a “greeting” with a choreographed lighting sequence, while also preparing the cabin for the journey, including seat, mirror and climate system adjustments. Once inside, the LYRIQ offers Cadillac’s highest level of driver information, infotainment and connectivity integration, for a more seamless and rewarding experience.
      A 33-inch-diagonal advanced LED display artfully integrates a single, large screen that spans the viewing area for the driver and incorporates driver information details, infotainment controls and camera views. This new display has the highest pixel density available in the automotive industry today and can display over one billion colors, 64 times more than any other vehicle in the automotive industry, providing a stunning in-vehicle experience unlike anything seen before from Cadillac.
      Additional technology and interactive highlights include:
      Battery and charging monitoring conveyed by easy, at-a-glance graphics. The system identifies the vehicle’s energy needs at home and on the go, according to owner preferences, while also monitoring and forecasting energy consumption and providing charging suggestions. New dual-plane augmented reality-enhanced head-up display employs two planes: a near plane indicating speed, direction and more, and a far plane displaying transparent navigation signals and other important alerts. The latest version of Super Cruise, the hands-free driver assistance feature, including automated lane change.3 Supervised remote parking that uses ultrasonic sensors to help the LYRIQ park itself in parallel or perpendicular parking spaces — whether the driver is inside or outside of the vehicle.4 SENSE OF SOUND
      LYRIQ’s technology also addresses sound in two important ways: Blocking unwanted sounds and making the most of the sounds passengers want to hear.
      For the first time, Cadillac will introduce a new road noise cancellation technology, which takes active noise cancellation to the next level by introducing more microphones and accelerometers, which improve noise cancellation abilities. With this new system, Cadillac’s performance and audio engineers can target the frequency range of tire cavity noise, reducing the noise level in the vehicle and allowing for a quieter in-cabin experience.
      The Cadillac LYRIQ builds on the brand’s exclusive partnership with AKG. “With LYRIQ we wanted to deliver a sound experience that would transport the driver from a vehicle into a recording studio,” said Hussein Khalil, Cadillac lead audio design release engineer. “With the AKG sound system, we are able to deliver this experience along with the quality and reliability luxury customers expect.”
      At launch, LYRIQ will offer a 19-speaker AKG Studio audio system that delivers exceptionally crisp and precise sound reproduction, enabling drivers and passengers to enjoy their favorite music.
      NEW FACE OF CADILLAC
      Cadillac’s first electric SUV makes a bold design statement that introduces a new face, proportion and presence for the brand’s new generation of EVs. It’s a forward-looking vision unconstrained by the needs of a traditional internal combustion engine and driveline.
      “The LYRIQ represents the next iteration of the iconic brand’s styling, enabled by electrification, as only Cadillac can express,” said Andrew Smith, executive director, Global Cadillac Design. “Inside and out, LYRIQ is a thoughtful integration of design and technology and is intended to make every drive an occasion.”
      Defined by taut lines and clean surfaces, LYRIQ is assertive and modern, characterized with a low, fast roofline and wide stance that emphasize agility and convey confidence. Additional details such as a flow-through roof spoiler express the careful attention paid to aerodynamics to optimize efficiency on the highway.
      A distinctive “black crystal” grille in the front is one of the LYRIQ’s most unique and expressive design elements. It is also a dynamic feature, as it is part of a dramatic lighting choreography that — along with bold vertical, slim LED signature lighting — greets the owner upon approach. At the rear, a split taillamp design incorporates slim LEDs that are also integrated into the lighting choreography.
      Inside, the LYRIQ’s new electric vehicle architecture opens up possibilities in vehicle spaciousness and design; and Cadillac designers used this as an opportunity to rethink how to use the space and where to locate various interior elements.
      The result is a more airy, minimalistic design that does more to involve the driver and passengers in the driving experience while offering exceptional functionality when it comes to storage solutions. It is also brimming with subtle yet obsessive details such as backlit speaker grilles, curved screens with hidden storage and, like the exterior, orchestrated lighting features.
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