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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    Renault and Nissan want to Formally Merge; Make Bid for FCA

      .. Move from alliance to formal merger

    Financial Times is reporting that Renault wants to make the marriage to Nissan more official and formally merge.  Renault wants to start talks within the next 12 months and include a potential bid for automaker FCA .  The combined companies of Nissan, Renault, Fiat, and Chrysler would be a conglomerate that rivals the size of Toyota and Volkswagen.

    Carlos Ghosn tried to start merger talks prior to his arrest for financial wrongdoing, however, the French government stopped his proposals. Renault currently owns roughly 43% of Nissan.

    FCA has recently been in the news for potential talks with Peugeot to merge. Those reports were squashed when it came to light that the Agnelli family, who has a controlling stake in FCA, was not interested in a deal that was paid for with PSA stock.

    Edited by Drew Dowdell

    Source: Automotive News (subscription required)



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    Bet the Agnelli Family is more interested in getting cash out of their controlling stake and moving on in various directions. Just makes sense that usually next generation family is not always interested in past family investments.

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    The merger is necessary given that Renault and Nissan are so close.

    As for the Agnelli family, it reminds me of the sale of the Buffalo Bills after founder Ralph Wilson died.  The kids want the cash and move onto their own interests. 

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    10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    the Agnelli Family is the only reason Fiat (the brand) is still alive today. 

    Is the family involved like the Ford family is in the business?

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    Just now, dfelt said:

    Is the family involved like the Ford family is in the business?

    That much I don't know. I know that Sergio was their designated spokesman and he largely did what they wanted, which was expand the Italian brands. 

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    The ghost of Carlos Ghosn lives on.  Sound like the super merger he always wanted will happen anyway.  If they combine all 3 into one company they will have to kill some brands.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The ghost of Carlos Ghosn lives on.  Sound like the super merger he always wanted will happen anyway.  If they combine all 3 into one company they will have to kill some brands.

    I vote Fiat, Alfa, Lancia.   Combine Renault and Nissan into a simple rebadge brand (based off Renaults). Nissan can use rebodied Rams for the truck and SUVs. Keep the Z and the GTR.  Dunno what to do with Mitsubishi... it doesn't do well in the US but it sells in emerging markets.  Maybe convert it to Datsun and kill it in the US. 

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    FCA does not want or need a partner right now. The American arm is in good shape, but they wont let go of the European arm. Why take on more burden with junk European cars and lousy European management?

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    3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I vote Fiat, Alfa, Lancia.   Combine Renault and Nissan into a simple rebadge brand (based off Renaults). Nissan can use rebodied Rams for the truck and SUVs. Keep the Z and the GTR.  Dunno what to do with Mitsubishi... it doesn't do well in the US but it sells in emerging markets.  Maybe convert it to Datsun and kill it in the US. 

    Renault and Nissan both would have to stay, they can share mechanicals on probably everything, Renalut seems better at small cars and Nissan more so on SUV but they can merge all that and rebage stuff.  That covers main stream.  Maybe Dodge stays as a performance brand but Renault has an F1 team maybe they do cheap person instead of Dodge and Dodge is killed too.   Chrysler dies move the Pacifica to Nissan.  Fiat and Lancia die as Renault has small cars.

    Ram and Jeep are safe, Alfa Romeo or Maserati need to stay as a luxury brand with Infiniti.

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The ghost of Carlos Ghosn lives on.  Sound like the super merger he always wanted will happen anyway.  If they combine all 3 into one company they will have to kill some brands.

    The ghost of?  Carlos Ghosn? Or do you mean Sergio Marchionne?  

    Anyway, I see what you mean by it because Sergio wanted to merge desperately and yeah, several brands need to be killed off. 

    Merger or not, several brands need to go as of now actually.  

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    2 hours ago, thedriver said:

    FCA does not want or need a partner right now. The American arm is in good shape, but they wont let go of the European arm. Why take on more burden with junk European cars and lousy European management?

    The American arm is doing great on the Jeep and Ram part.

    The Dodge and Chrysler part...well...lets be honest...they are on borrowed time as it were.  Because of the lack of attention and R&D money that the "F" part of FCA is doing to them...

    Maserati and Alfa Romeo still have some cache. In Europe and in North America. Its just that the FCA leaders are not tapping into that cache properly. 

    Maybe its reliability issues or product or both that are hindering success,  but I think Alfa and Maserati could still be salvaged and be worth something and BE brands that many would want to own. 

    If both brands die off though, I wouldnt be shedding any tears. 

    If Renault and Nissan merge for an eventual FCA merger....YIKES!!! Too many brands!!!

    58 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Renault and Nissan both would have to stay, they can share mechanicals on probably everything, Renalut seems better at small cars and Nissan more so on SUV but they can merge all that and rebage stuff.  That covers main stream.  Maybe Dodge stays as a performance brand but Renault has an F1 team maybe they do cheap person instead of Dodge and Dodge is killed too.   Chrysler dies move the Pacifica to Nissan.  Fiat and Lancia die as Renault has small cars.

    Ram and Jeep are safe, Alfa Romeo or Maserati need to stay as a luxury brand with Infiniti.

    Even with this scenario...too many brands that just dont do anything and would be encroaching each other...

    Come to think of it, Renault-Nissan really does NOT need FCA...

    Especially the way you described it...

    Nissan does not need Jeep as Nissan could dig deep into their very own heritage and do rough and tough SUVs.  Not too long ago their very own XTERRA was impressive let alone what they had with their Pathfinder several decades ago...

    Their former XTRAIL was a great off roader too. So they got offroading know-how...

    Family haulin' CUVs/SUVs?   Id say their Pathfinder and Rogue do a great job in that area. Qashqai too maybe? No better, but no worse than everybody else Id say...

    Renault has it alright with small cars in Europe. Nissan sells alright in the US. Maybe a better focus on quality is all it takes to be a leader in both markets?  Now that Ghosn is gone, because I think HE was the one to phoque up the quality, well that could be fixed in a jiffy...

    Mitsubishi? Well...better focused vehicles for the US market and that too is an easy fix.

    AWD for offroading or sports cars is a Mitsubishi thing...couple that with Nissan and its sport car division (or offroading)and Renault with their F1 racing program and I dont really see how Mitsubishi cant be fixed easily?

    Infiniti...  whatever. 

    Does Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi really need FCA that whatever Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi is lacking that they cant fix by themselves? 

    What? Renault is nostalgic about Chrysler that they want Chrysler in their lives again? For Jeep? They dont need Jeep.  Mitsu bishi too is nostalgic about Chrysler?  Lee Iacocca is loooong gone. 

    They got Nissan and Mitsubishi that could be a good competitor to Jeep if they played their cards right...

    FCA needs help. Let them die...

    Jeep and Ram could survive together, on their own  Jeep could go on the reverse trend introducing a sedan if they need one and they could call it the Eagle...and it be a cool way to celebrate their own past when Chrysler owned AMC and Jeep and the first ever crossover was the Eagle...

    It be a pity for Dodge and Chrysler, but hey...

    Fiat, Alfa, Maserati...well...good riddance...

     

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    And they thought GM had too many brands....

    You keep the 4 strongest brands and get rid of everything else.

     

    Build long and hard on those.....

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    On 3/27/2019 at 11:56 PM, daves87rs said:

    And they thought GM had too many brands....

    You keep the 4 strongest brands and get rid of everything else.

     

    Build long and hard on those.....

    The problem is that some brands are regional.  The French won't buy Nissans, nor will the Chinese.  They'll buy Renaults.  Everyone buys Jeeps. Americans won't touch Fiats, but Europeans are fine with them.  Nissan does well in the US with cheap financing. 

    So there will likely need to be some heavy rebadging going on and each brand stay in its home territory. 

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    5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The problem is that some brands are regional.  The French won't buy Nissans, nor will the Chinese.  They'll buy Renaults.  Everyone buys Jeeps. Americans won't touch Fiats, but Europeans are fine with them.  Nissan does well in the US with cheap financing. 

    So there will likely need to be some heavy rebadging going on and each brand stay in its home territory. 

    I agree...but the question is do that have a choice?

    Even the rebadging is going to cost money they don’t really have....

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    21 hours ago, daves87rs said:

    I agree...but the question is do that have a choice?

    Even the rebadging is going to cost money they don’t really have....

    FCA isn't hurting with Jeep and RAM doing well. Nissan-Renault seems to be going okay too. 

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    6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    FCA isn't hurting with Jeep and RAM doing well. Nissan-Renault seems to be going okay too. 

    Now, yes very much so.... but this success is after a struggle they had for a while ...

    That said- FCA seems to have the best line going right now...and the Jeep trucklet is only going to make it better.

    Now if they could use a little Nissan to shake a car or to into FCA, it could work! 

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    On 3/30/2019 at 11:18 PM, daves87rs said:

     

    Now if they could use a little Nissan to shake a car or to into FCA, it could work! 

    Alas, Nissan's reputation these days in the US is cheap cars w/ CVTs.  They long ago lost their mojo here. 

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      CYTD
      CYTD
      2019
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      2019
      2018
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      -98.5
      370Z
      158
      202
      -21.8
      2,384
      3,468
      -31.3
      GT-R
      17
      25
      -32.0
      331
      538
      -38.5
      Total Car
      38,219
      48,865
      -21.8
      510,564
      559,790
      -8.8
      Kicks
      4,123
      5,704
      -27.7
      58,193
      23,312
      149.6
      Frontier
      4,720
      7,492
      -37.0
      72,369
      79,646
      -9.1
      Titan
      1,916
      4,661
      -58.9
      31,514
      50,459
      -37.5
      Pathfinder
      5,894
      6,799
      -13.3
      65,691
      67,550
      -2.8
      Armada
      2,967
      2,874
      3.2
      32,044
      32,650
      -1.9
      Rogue
      27,331
      42,523
      -35.7
      350,447
      412,110
      -15.0
      Murano
      5,187
      8,033
      -35.4
      68,361
      83,547
      -18.2
      Quest
      0
      0
      n/a
      0
      3
      -100.0
      NV
      1,719
      2,013
      -14.6
      20,022
      16,902
      18.5
      NV200
      1,462
      1,691
      -13.5
      18,768
      18,628
      0.8
      Total Truck
      55,319
      81,790
      -32.4
      717,409
      784,807
      -8.6
      North American produced
      73,510
      96,695
      -24.0
      970,563
      1,022,140
      -5.0
      Car
      38,044
      48,633
      -21.8
      507,838
      555,053
      -8.5
      Truck
      35,466
      48,062
      -26.2
      462,725
      467,087
      -0.9
      Import
      20,028
      33,960
      -41.0
      257,410
      322,457
      -20.2
      Car
      175
      232
      -24.6
      2,726
      4,737
      -42.5
      Truck
      19,853
      33,728
      -41.1
      197,372
      317,720
      -37.9
       
      INFINITI
       
      Infiniti Total
      DECEMBER
      DECEMBER
      Monthly
      CYTD
      CYTD
      CYTD
      2019
      2018
      % chg
      2019
      2018
      % chg
       
       
       
       
       
       
      11,243
      18,065
      -37.8
      117,708
      149,280
      -21.1
      Infiniti Q50
      2,165
      3,690
      -41.3
      25,987
      34,763
      -25.2
      Infiniti Q60
      430
      662
      -35.0
      5,043
      9,017
      -44.1
      Infiniti Q70
      90
      329
      -72.6
      2,552
      4,479
      -43.0
      Infiniti QX30
      50
      647
      -92.3
      3,229
      8,101
      -60.1
      Infiniti QX50
      1,815
      3,329
      -45.5
      18,616
      25,389
      -26.7
      Infiniti QX60
      4,113
      7,032
      -41.5
      43,162
      47,370
      -8.9
      Infiniti QX70
      0
      4
      -100.0
      6
      954
      -99.4
      Infiniti QX80
      2,580
      2,372
      8.8
      19,113
      19,207
      -0.5
      Total Car
      2,685
      4,681
      -42.6
      33,582
      48,259
      -30.4
      Total Truck
      8,558
      13,384
      -36.1
      84,126
      101,021
      -16.7
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      NISSAN GROUP
       
      TOTAL VEHICLE
      DECEMBER
      DECEMBER
      Monthly
      CYTD
      CYTD
      CYTD
      2019
      2018
      % chg
      2019
      2018
      % chg
       
       
       
       
       
       
      104,781
      148,720
      -29.5
      1,345,681
      1,493,877
      -9.9
      Total Car
      40,904
      53,546
      -23.6
      544,146
      608,049
      -10.5
      Total Truck
      63,877
      95,174
      -32.9
      801,535
      885,828
      -9.5
      Selling days
      25
      26
       
      307
      307
       
       
      # # #
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    • Well now, to keep the C&G ship on an even keel, I will need to eat 4 ounces of steamed chicken breast, two tablespoons of boiled brown rice, and one steamed broccoli floret for lunch.
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