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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    Mercedes-AMG Models Endangered in EU

      ...could cut models by 75%...

    New European carbon emissions rules are coming into effect soon and that will have a negative effect on models from a number of manufacturers.  Mercedes-AMG is known for its high-output vehicles, but that also generally makes them more polluting as well. 

    Mercedes wants to cut its CO2 emissions from the current 138 grams per kilometer to 100 grams per kilometer. This would hit its most powerful models the hardest.  In the overall European market, 35 percent of new vehicles sold are sport utility vehicles which generally have higher emissions than cars.  Customers' appetite for SUVs could force Mercedes to cut their AMG variants offered by up to 75%.  AMG will attempt to get around some of these cuts by introducing electrification in more of its vehicles, however, engine downsizing seems to be in play here as well. 

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    Death of AMG is nothing NEW, this has been forecast since 2017.

    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-death-of-amg-as-we-know-it-has-been-confirmed-and-its-coming-to-take-our-v8s/

    Over the last 3 years, everyone has stated how the death of AMG will change the performance industry.

    https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/death-mercedes-amgs-v12-will-mark-end-era/

    V12 dead, V8 Dead, V6 death coming to a dealership near you soon.

    Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

    Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

     

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    4 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Death of AMG is nothing NEW, this has been forecast since 2017.

    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-death-of-amg-as-we-know-it-has-been-confirmed-and-its-coming-to-take-our-v8s/

    Over the last 3 years, everyone has stated how the death of AMG will change the performance industry.

    https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/death-mercedes-amgs-v12-will-mark-end-era/

    V12 dead, V8 Dead, V6 death coming to a dealership near you soon.

    Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

    Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

     

    AMG is not dying, big loud V8s are dying.  AMG will always find a way to make performance.  I'd trust them more than others given how tough some regulations are because they are committed to "Driving Performance" and have the engineering and racing know now.

    Keep in mind a Ford Focus 1.5 Ecoboost emits 122 g/km of CO2 so even that would fail Europe's 2021 standards and lead to fines.  So AMG is basically tasked with delivering today's performance at Ford Focus level emissions.  And so is everyone else, no Camaro or Corvette in Europe because they can't meet emissions, BMW M5 puts out 245 g/km of CO2, so how do you get that to 100?  

    Of course these are going to be fleet average fines, the quicker Mercedes and flood Europe with EV's the easier it is to save AMG's 6 and 8 cylinder engines, but AMG has already said the current V8 is the last one they will have.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    AMG is not dying, big loud V8s are dying.  AMG will always find a way to make performance.  I'd trust them more than others given how tough some regulations are because they are committed to "Driving Performance" and have the engineering and racing know now.

    Keep in mind a Ford Focus 1.5 Ecoboost emits 122 g/km of CO2 so even that would fail Europe's 2021 standards and lead to fines.  So AMG is basically tasked with delivering today's performance at Ford Focus level emissions.  And so is everyone else, no Camaro or Corvette in Europe because they can't meet emissions, BMW M5 puts out 245 g/km of CO2, so how do you get that to 100?  

    Of course these are going to be fleet average fines, the quicker Mercedes and flood Europe with EV's the easier it is to save AMG's 6 and 8 cylinder engines, but AMG has already said the current V8 is the last one they will have.

    Not off by much but it is stated that the M5 is 241 g/km of CO2.

    https://www.nextgreencar.com/emissions/make-model/bmw/m5/

    Which is higher than the Mercedes AMG version at 200 g/km of CO2

    https://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/75323/mercedes-benz-e-class-saloon-e-53-amg-premium-4matic+-speedshift-tct-petrol-semi-automatic-9-speed/

    Course all performance auto's have high CO2 output, corvette is no difference for what is sold in Europe.

    image.png

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    Yet like you are fond of stating, Hybrids / EVs will fix it all and replace the ICE version.

    Corvette is expected to have a Twin Turbo V8 Hybrid version to reduce those emissions.

    https://www.motor1.com/news/384042/c8-chevy-zr1-hybrid-900hp/

     

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    But a hybrid V8 is still a lot of emissions.  Something like a Corvette, M5, or an AMG needs a 4 cylinder and 1 or 2 electric motors.  Sure for really expensive you could do a V8 but the V8 in a few years is going to be like a V12 of the 2010s, reserved for quarter million dollar cars.  

    AMG does have a plan for a 2 liter turbo 4 hybrid with over 500 hp.  And I suspect they could easily get over 500 hp from the inline six if they wanted, and add an electric motor to that.  But this is all low volume cars, the key really is to get the mainstream stuff down.

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    7 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

    Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

    Doubtful anytime soon. How's the 2.7T in the Silverado selling, BTW?

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    20 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Not remotely... but I would like to see the numbers. I would guess by combing new truck inventory that the 5.3 is 75% of production, with the 2.7, 4.3, 6.2 and 6.6 taking up the rest.

    Might not want to buy one any time soon as the Turbo 4 banger has been getting bad press.

    image.png

    https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/topic/227170-2019-t1-silverado-4cyl-engine-problems/

    I loved this post in the thread, LOL

    image.png

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    12 hours ago, balthazar said:

    String of failures so far from daimler...

    They'll probably be the last performance maker left.  Imagine GM telling engineers that the C9 Corvette has to use a sub 2-liter engine but have equal or better performance to the C8.    They would just shut down the whole program.  BMW thought the i8 was a performance car, please.  The Japanese don't do performance now unless they buy the car off BMW.  I like AMG's chances against that crowd.

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    Ford built a 800+ HP 4-cylinder for competition 40 years ago. Chevy has a pedestrian 2.0T developing 310 HP right now, and took an Ecotec 2.0L 4 to 246 MPH 15 years ago. That's faster than a MB GT R with a TT V8 does now.

    You don't think Chevrolet could take a 2.0L 4 and make it produce 600-700 HP in a Corvette with a snap of their fingers?

    Edited by balthazar
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    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Ford built a 800+ HP 4-cylinder for competition 40 years ago. Chevy has a pedestrian 2.0T developing 310 HP right now, and took an Ecotec 2.0L 4 to 246 MPH 15 years ago. That's faster than a MB GT R with a TT V8 does now.

    You don't think Chevrolet could take a 2.0L 4 and make it produce 600-700 HP in a Corvette with a snap of their fingers?

    Considering it takes Chevrolet 6.2 liters to make 490 hp, I don't think they could make 500 hp from 2 liters.   GM will ride the V8 in North America until an EV mandate kicks in.  GM doesn't sell performance products or full size SUVs in China, so they can use 2 liter and less engines and hybrids there.  GM has no European business so they don't have to worry about that.  So the only question in the USA is how long gas is cheap and how long consumer demand is there for 6 liter engines whether that be Corvettes or pick up trucks.

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    The V8 will still survive and probably thrive here in the USA until BEVs render the entire line of ICE engines obsolete.  That may not happen for another 15-20 years minimum. 

    MB will simply sell the AMG models where the V8 is not somehow banned, like the USA or the Middle East.  Now if $5/gal or higher ever returns, then AMG (and a lot of other vehicles) will have a problem finding customers.

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    54 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    In a production vehicle?   I think not...

    No- the need's not there for production as of yet; V8s worked easier and remain fully compliant. But they've successfully done the engineering years ago,and there's still more on the table.

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    40 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    No- the need's not there for production as of yet; V8s worked easier and remain fully compliant. But they've successfully done the engineering years ago,and there's still more on the table.

    If its not in production, it's not real...means nothing, can't compare to production products..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    BS. Everything in production was engineered to that spec, pre-production.  Can't have the latter without the former.

    smk : "Imagine GM telling engineers that the C9 Corvette has to use a sub 2-liter engine but have equal or better performance to the C8.    They would just shut down the whole program."

    smk was speaking hypothetically, and I gave past evidence that disproves his future hypothesis.  'Production' is irrelevant to the discussion, which was about the ability.

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    GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.  I think Daimler and VW (outside of Tesla) are best equipped to meet the MPG standards, CO2 emission regulations, etc that all these countries put out and the fuel economy and power that customers demand.  They both see the future and have the resources and engineering to do it.

    AMG is still going to have the V8 at the top end until they go pure EV sometime in the 2030s, but they can easily replace 3 liter   V6s with 2 liter 4's, replace some V8s with 3 liter inline sixes and they already said the next C63 and S63 are plug-in hybrids, so they can take care of emissions and fuel economy and not lose any performance.

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Considering it takes Chevrolet 6.2 liters to make 490 hp...

    They've also used 6.2L to make 640 HP. It's called 'tuning'.

    GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.


    Didn't I mention the 2.0L engine in a full-size pick-up only a few posts earlier??

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    They have a 2.7L in a pickup.  I actually applaud the 310 hp from that engine and it makes more torque than the 3.6 V6.   They need more of that, but that engine should be hooked up to a mild hybrid system like how Ram has e-torque.

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