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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    Mercedes-AMG Models Endangered in EU

      ...could cut models by 75%...

    New European carbon emissions rules are coming into effect soon and that will have a negative effect on models from a number of manufacturers.  Mercedes-AMG is known for its high-output vehicles, but that also generally makes them more polluting as well. 

    Mercedes wants to cut its CO2 emissions from the current 138 grams per kilometer to 100 grams per kilometer. This would hit its most powerful models the hardest.  In the overall European market, 35 percent of new vehicles sold are sport utility vehicles which generally have higher emissions than cars.  Customers' appetite for SUVs could force Mercedes to cut their AMG variants offered by up to 75%.  AMG will attempt to get around some of these cuts by introducing electrification in more of its vehicles, however, engine downsizing seems to be in play here as well. 



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    An AMG Hybrid.  Sounds interesting. No idea if MB will actually do that.  MB should make their SUVs hybrids standard if they do not want to ditch AMG altogether.

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    55 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    An AMG Hybrid.  Sounds interesting. No idea if MB will actually do that.  MB should make their SUVs hybrids standard if they do not want to ditch AMG altogether.

    All the 53’s are mild hybrid now and the V8s starting on 2020 model year are switching over to that.  AMG One is hybrid, that is their short term future, full electric is longer term.

    This effects every one though.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    All the 53’s are mild hybrid now and the V8s starting on 2020 model year are switching over to that.  AMG One is hybrid, that is their short term future, full electric is longer term.

    This effects every one though.

    Get Ready for MB to move to Hybrid FWD Everything, special high price for those RWD and AWD V8 machines and did you not get the memo? AMG One is dead. :P 

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    31 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Get Ready for MB to move to Hybrid FWD Everything, special high price for those RWD and AWD V8 machines and did you not get the memo? AMG One is dead. :P 

    RWD hybrid everything, outside of A-class based cars like GLA/GLB.   Technically, the E-class, GLE and GLS are hybrids now, plug-ing hybrid AMG GT, GLS, S-class are likely coming.  They have stated all 275 AMG Ones will be delivered in 2021.

    Rumor is the next C63 is going to use a turbo 4 with an electric motor.  They will hybrid everything in the short term, post 2030 I think they want to be all electric.  

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    Climate change is real, regulations are going to come hard to combat it.  I am not worried about AMG’s ability to rise to a challenge.  Everyone has the same rules to follow.

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    7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Climate change is real

    No sh*t it's real.  It's been happening since Mother Earth was born.  Why the sudden, arrogant assumption that humans can do diddly squat about it?  Go away, Greta!

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    A bit off the subject but while I have no opinion on her personally, I find it absolutely hilarious that a 16 year old with Aspergers has the president and his supporters in such a fit.

     

    Be careful Blu! Gretas gonna get ya’!!

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    4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    A bit off the subject but while I have no opinion on her personally, I find it absolutely hilarious that a 16 year old with Aspergers has the president and his supporters in such a fit.

     

    Be careful Blu! Gretas gonna get ya’!!

    She certainly is meme-worthy.  Especially when she's doing normal things while espousing the abnormal.

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    It is a bit puzzling how much attention she's getting; I'm not aware what graduate courses she's successfully taken to be any kind of expert.

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    1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

    She's a weird little girl

    So are you but we don’t hold it against you.

    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    It is a bit puzzling how much attention she's getting; I'm not aware what graduate courses she's successfully taken to be any kind of expert.

    Pretty sure regardless of ones stance on this, she doesn’t have to possess a degree in order to be passionate about her cause. It’s also kind of presumptuous that she doesn’t have some experience with this just because she’s 16. 

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    9 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    surreal's modus operandi:  simply be contrary to everyone.  What a way to win friends.  Tic Tac?

    Says the fool who trolls subjects he clearly has no interest in. Now go back in the corner before Greta spanks you. 
     

    And who says I’m trying to win friends? Your continued assumptions about my intentions over the course of this year has been nothing short of laugh out loud dumb. Of course, that’s familiar territory for you so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that you are so bitter. 

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    1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

    Pretty sure regardless of ones stance on this, she doesn’t have to possess a degree in order to be passionate about her cause. It’s also kind of presumptuous that she doesn’t have some experience with this just because she’s 16. 

    No; of course she's allowed to be passionate. I don't question that, just her World Tour / speaking engagements.
    Climate scientists (I assume) have gone thru some sort of 4-year program in order to become a professional on the matter. Isn't she still in high school?

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    51 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    No; of course she's allowed to be passionate. I don't question that, just her World Tour / speaking engagements.
    Climate scientists (I assume) have gone thru some sort of 4-year program in order to become a professional on the matter. Isn't she still in high school?

    Wonder if her parents are college educated? 🤔

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    52 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    No; of course she's allowed to be passionate. I don't question that, just her World Tour / speaking engagements.
    Climate scientists (I assume) have gone thru some sort of 4-year program in order to become a professional on the matter. Isn't she still in high school?

    Again, irrelevant and especially since those same climate scientists echo her sentiments about the climate and back it up with actual data. I do get what you’re saying though but I just don’t think her “qualifications” are all that important in this context. Just my opinion and this has gotten a little too far off the subject anyway. 

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    26 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Wonder if her parents are college educated? 🤔

    Her parents are actors, as is she.  She's on IMDB.

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    On 12/20/2019 at 5:04 PM, ocnblu said:

    Her parents are actors, as is she.  She's on IMDB.

    Are you really so insecure that you had to dig through the internet and all you find is this? You should have went one link further there. Here is her “IMDB” which are all interviews and docuseries from 2019. Poor little Blu, threatened by a little sixteen year old girl. Somehow, it doesn’t really surprise me. 
     

    “oooh, her parents were actors”. 
     

    So F’ing what. Our president is a reality tv with five bankruptcies and three marriages full of adultery but it’s the little girl that gets your panties in a bunch. It’s laughably sad. 

    13 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Thank you, another youthful look at me, me and only me. Ignore the man behind the curtain. :P 

    Read the actual link to her “shows” and you will see why Blu is just trying to troll extra hard here. 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    First off, this is about Greta.  Secondly, I did not dig anywhere, I knew about it long ago.  Thirdly, everyone knows she speaks from a script.  Fourthly, tying Greta to the thread was only a little bit off topic, because EU governments are shooting themselves with the same gun she carries, when she has talking points given to her.  Fifthly, I was replying to dfelt's question about her parents, not anything to do with you, is everything about you?  And sixthly, why are you obsessed with me as of late?  Hasn't anyone else said anything that warrants having you emerge fromunda that bridge?  :smilewide:

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    4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    First off, this is about Greta.  Secondly, I did not dig anywhere, I knew about it long ago.  Thirdly, everyone knows she speaks from a script.  Fourthly, tying Greta to the thread was only a little bit off topic, because EU governments are shooting themselves with the same gun she carries, when she has talking points given to her.  Fifthly, I was replying to dfelt's question about her parents, not anything to do with you, is everything about you?  And sixthly, why are you obsessed with me as of late?  Hasn't anyone else said anything that warrants having you emerge fromunda that bridge?  :smilewide:

    “I knew about it long ago”.

     

    Sure you did. And you are the one who brought up Greta in response to SMKs post (shooting down your “fifthly” point because you started it, end of story) so how about holding yourself responsible for your own BS for once. 

     

    “Everyone knows she speaks from a script”

     

    No $h! Sherlock. I’d advise you look up and actually research Aspergers before sounding completely dumb on this one. Ad libbing is not a strong point for those with the condition. 

     

     

    That “obsessed” bs is just that, BS. No one is forcing you to respond to me, no one. I responded to your post like any person here would do. You just don’t like the responses. My advice to you on that is “suck it up buttercup”. This is just more whining like you did back in August on the Random Thoughts thread. You are the one who is “obsessed” hence your rabid trolling in various threads about subjects you dislike yet cant stop talking about. How about being a hypocrite and whiny baby on your own time and stop polluting this place with the same nonsense you have posted for years when things don’t go your way.

     

     

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    Death of AMG is nothing NEW, this has been forecast since 2017.

    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-death-of-amg-as-we-know-it-has-been-confirmed-and-its-coming-to-take-our-v8s/

    Over the last 3 years, everyone has stated how the death of AMG will change the performance industry.

    https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/death-mercedes-amgs-v12-will-mark-end-era/

    V12 dead, V8 Dead, V6 death coming to a dealership near you soon.

    Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

    Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

     

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    4 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Death of AMG is nothing NEW, this has been forecast since 2017.

    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-death-of-amg-as-we-know-it-has-been-confirmed-and-its-coming-to-take-our-v8s/

    Over the last 3 years, everyone has stated how the death of AMG will change the performance industry.

    https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/death-mercedes-amgs-v12-will-mark-end-era/

    V12 dead, V8 Dead, V6 death coming to a dealership near you soon.

    Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

    Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

     

    AMG is not dying, big loud V8s are dying.  AMG will always find a way to make performance.  I'd trust them more than others given how tough some regulations are because they are committed to "Driving Performance" and have the engineering and racing know now.

    Keep in mind a Ford Focus 1.5 Ecoboost emits 122 g/km of CO2 so even that would fail Europe's 2021 standards and lead to fines.  So AMG is basically tasked with delivering today's performance at Ford Focus level emissions.  And so is everyone else, no Camaro or Corvette in Europe because they can't meet emissions, BMW M5 puts out 245 g/km of CO2, so how do you get that to 100?  

    Of course these are going to be fleet average fines, the quicker Mercedes and flood Europe with EV's the easier it is to save AMG's 6 and 8 cylinder engines, but AMG has already said the current V8 is the last one they will have.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    AMG is not dying, big loud V8s are dying.  AMG will always find a way to make performance.  I'd trust them more than others given how tough some regulations are because they are committed to "Driving Performance" and have the engineering and racing know now.

    Keep in mind a Ford Focus 1.5 Ecoboost emits 122 g/km of CO2 so even that would fail Europe's 2021 standards and lead to fines.  So AMG is basically tasked with delivering today's performance at Ford Focus level emissions.  And so is everyone else, no Camaro or Corvette in Europe because they can't meet emissions, BMW M5 puts out 245 g/km of CO2, so how do you get that to 100?  

    Of course these are going to be fleet average fines, the quicker Mercedes and flood Europe with EV's the easier it is to save AMG's 6 and 8 cylinder engines, but AMG has already said the current V8 is the last one they will have.

    Not off by much but it is stated that the M5 is 241 g/km of CO2.

    https://www.nextgreencar.com/emissions/make-model/bmw/m5/

    Which is higher than the Mercedes AMG version at 200 g/km of CO2

    https://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/75323/mercedes-benz-e-class-saloon-e-53-amg-premium-4matic+-speedshift-tct-petrol-semi-automatic-9-speed/

    Course all performance auto's have high CO2 output, corvette is no difference for what is sold in Europe.

    image.png

    image.png

    Yet like you are fond of stating, Hybrids / EVs will fix it all and replace the ICE version.

    Corvette is expected to have a Twin Turbo V8 Hybrid version to reduce those emissions.

    https://www.motor1.com/news/384042/c8-chevy-zr1-hybrid-900hp/

     

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    But a hybrid V8 is still a lot of emissions.  Something like a Corvette, M5, or an AMG needs a 4 cylinder and 1 or 2 electric motors.  Sure for really expensive you could do a V8 but the V8 in a few years is going to be like a V12 of the 2010s, reserved for quarter million dollar cars.  

    AMG does have a plan for a 2 liter turbo 4 hybrid with over 500 hp.  And I suspect they could easily get over 500 hp from the inline six if they wanted, and add an electric motor to that.  But this is all low volume cars, the key really is to get the mainstream stuff down.

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    7 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Technology is changing the way the game is played and will not really cause an uproar till Trucks and Full Size SUVs are told they cannot have Diesel, V8's or V6's.

    Some are going to to have a heart attack when that happens while others will embrace the change and move forward in the 21st century towards the 22nd.

    Doubtful anytime soon. How's the 2.7T in the Silverado selling, BTW?

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    Doubtful anytime soon. How's the 2.7T in the Silverado selling, BTW?

    Is it their #1 volume engine?

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    Not remotely... but I would like to see the numbers. I would guess by combing new truck inventory that the 5.3 is 75% of production, with the 2.7, 4.3, 6.2 and 6.6 taking up the rest.

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    20 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Not remotely... but I would like to see the numbers. I would guess by combing new truck inventory that the 5.3 is 75% of production, with the 2.7, 4.3, 6.2 and 6.6 taking up the rest.

    Might not want to buy one any time soon as the Turbo 4 banger has been getting bad press.

    image.png

    https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/topic/227170-2019-t1-silverado-4cyl-engine-problems/

    I loved this post in the thread, LOL

    image.png

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    Don't have to tell me the V8 is the way to go.
    More folk must be comfortable in the early part of the 21st century than the media lets on.

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    34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    AMG will become compliant with batteries and electricity.  

    Tesla has proven a performance EV can sell, so it's doable...

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    12 hours ago, balthazar said:

    String of failures so far from daimler...

    They'll probably be the last performance maker left.  Imagine GM telling engineers that the C9 Corvette has to use a sub 2-liter engine but have equal or better performance to the C8.    They would just shut down the whole program.  BMW thought the i8 was a performance car, please.  The Japanese don't do performance now unless they buy the car off BMW.  I like AMG's chances against that crowd.

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    Ford built a 800+ HP 4-cylinder for competition 40 years ago. Chevy has a pedestrian 2.0T developing 310 HP right now, and took an Ecotec 2.0L 4 to 246 MPH 15 years ago. That's faster than a MB GT R with a TT V8 does now.

    You don't think Chevrolet could take a 2.0L 4 and make it produce 600-700 HP in a Corvette with a snap of their fingers?

    Edited by balthazar
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    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Ford built a 800+ HP 4-cylinder for competition 40 years ago. Chevy has a pedestrian 2.0T developing 310 HP right now, and took an Ecotec 2.0L 4 to 246 MPH 15 years ago. That's faster than a MB GT R with a TT V8 does now.

    You don't think Chevrolet could take a 2.0L 4 and make it produce 600-700 HP in a Corvette with a snap of their fingers?

    Considering it takes Chevrolet 6.2 liters to make 490 hp, I don't think they could make 500 hp from 2 liters.   GM will ride the V8 in North America until an EV mandate kicks in.  GM doesn't sell performance products or full size SUVs in China, so they can use 2 liter and less engines and hybrids there.  GM has no European business so they don't have to worry about that.  So the only question in the USA is how long gas is cheap and how long consumer demand is there for 6 liter engines whether that be Corvettes or pick up trucks.

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    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I don't think they could make 500 hp from 2 liters.

    THEY’VE ALREADY DONE IT.

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    10 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    THEY’VE ALREADY DONE IT.

    In a production vehicle?   I think not...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    The V8 will still survive and probably thrive here in the USA until BEVs render the entire line of ICE engines obsolete.  That may not happen for another 15-20 years minimum. 

    MB will simply sell the AMG models where the V8 is not somehow banned, like the USA or the Middle East.  Now if $5/gal or higher ever returns, then AMG (and a lot of other vehicles) will have a problem finding customers.

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    54 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    In a production vehicle?   I think not...

    No- the need's not there for production as of yet; V8s worked easier and remain fully compliant. But they've successfully done the engineering years ago,and there's still more on the table.

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    40 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    No- the need's not there for production as of yet; V8s worked easier and remain fully compliant. But they've successfully done the engineering years ago,and there's still more on the table.

    If its not in production, it's not real...means nothing, can't compare to production products..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    BS. Everything in production was engineered to that spec, pre-production.  Can't have the latter without the former.

    smk : "Imagine GM telling engineers that the C9 Corvette has to use a sub 2-liter engine but have equal or better performance to the C8.    They would just shut down the whole program."

    smk was speaking hypothetically, and I gave past evidence that disproves his future hypothesis.  'Production' is irrelevant to the discussion, which was about the ability.

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    GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.  I think Daimler and VW (outside of Tesla) are best equipped to meet the MPG standards, CO2 emission regulations, etc that all these countries put out and the fuel economy and power that customers demand.  They both see the future and have the resources and engineering to do it.

    AMG is still going to have the V8 at the top end until they go pure EV sometime in the 2030s, but they can easily replace 3 liter   V6s with 2 liter 4's, replace some V8s with 3 liter inline sixes and they already said the next C63 and S63 are plug-in hybrids, so they can take care of emissions and fuel economy and not lose any performance.

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Considering it takes Chevrolet 6.2 liters to make 490 hp...

    They've also used 6.2L to make 640 HP. It's called 'tuning'.

    GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.


    Didn't I mention the 2.0L engine in a full-size pick-up only a few posts earlier??

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    They have a 2.7L in a pickup.  I actually applaud the 310 hp from that engine and it makes more torque than the 3.6 V6.   They need more of that, but that engine should be hooked up to a mild hybrid system like how Ram has e-torque.

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    Correct; 2.7L.

    Ram's V6 e-torque adds 12 HP and 39 TRQ. I added that much [15/35] to my old F-150 300 I-6 via a chip and I can attest from experience; you cannot discern that little of a power bump. Ie-Torque also ADDS 105 lbs, lessening the benefit. Besides, the Ram e-torque 3.6 still has less HP & TRQ than the Chevy 2.7T  [305/269 vs. 310/348]. Hell, the Ram is no better than the Chevy 4.3 V6 [285/305].

    Know what I think? People should buy the 5.3L [355/383].

    Edited by balthazar

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    13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    GM and engine downsizing don't really go hand in hand.  I think Daimler and VW (outside of Tesla) are best equipped to meet the MPG standards, CO2 emission regulations, etc that all these countries put out and the fuel economy and power that customers demand.  They both see the future and have the resources and engineering to do it.

    AMG is still going to have the V8 at the top end until they go pure EV sometime in the 2030s, but they can easily replace 3 liter   V6s with 2 liter 4's, replace some V8s with 3 liter inline sixes and they already said the next C63 and S63 are plug-in hybrids, so they can take care of emissions and fuel economy and not lose any performance.

    Rightttttttttttttttt

    You seem to forget that GM is the company that created the skateboard EV concept way before any of these other companies. MB has followed GM in so many ways and while they have surpassed them in the last 20 years or so due to poor mgmt. and leadership with the product lines, there is much MB still lags behind in. Where is all the EV tech from MB as we have not seen anything that is ground breaking. MB followed GM with bringing out an EV auto on a skateboard platform 20 years after GM created the concept. Hydrogen auto's again behind GM, Hybrids again behind GM. The list is long and distinguished on how BEHIND MB has been, a FOLLOWER to bleeding edge tech!

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    9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Rightttttttttttttttt

    You seem to forget that GM is the company that created the skateboard EV concept way before any of these other companies. MB has followed GM in so many ways and while they have surpassed them in the last 20 years or so due to poor mgmt. and leadership with the product lines, there is much MB still lags behind in. Where is all the EV tech from MB as we have not seen anything that is ground breaking. MB followed GM with bringing out an EV auto on a skateboard platform 20 years after GM created the concept. Hydrogen auto's again behind GM, Hybrids again behind GM. The list is long and distinguished on how BEHIND MB has been, a FOLLOWER to bleeding edge tech!

    The problem is GM invents stuff but does nothing with it.... they came up with that skateboard platform and didn't do anything with it due to their incompetent leadership.. 

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    Just now, Robert Hall said:

    The problem is GM invents stuff but does nothing with it.... they came up with that skateboard platform and didn't do anything with it due to their incompetent leadership.. 

    Yes that is very true, Lucky it seems Mary is willing to push that direction. the next 5 years should prove interesting to see if she does really reinvent GM or is just playing politics internally.

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    The business case for EVs is still extremely weak. Or is rushing into a manufacturing scenario where you continually lose money now ‘competence’? 

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    The business case looks weak because gas is about $2.50/gallon.  No need to rush things, but GM has to keep developing tech AND release product to compete with Tesla, whether it is in the USA or China.

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    The business case for EVs is still extremely weak. Or is rushing into a manufacturing scenario where you continually lose money now ‘competence’? 

    Bigger question to ask is how many people are just waiting for GM, Ford, FCA, etc to bring out the EV Trucks and SUVs to buy as they want to reduce the amount of maintenance an ICE auto requires.

    Here in the growth of High Tech Seattle, many folks are driving much older auto's awaiting electric options that they like. Plus with houses pretty much having 220 chargers in the garages as mandated by the state as well as Apartments and businesses plus all the rest stops from Vancouver BC to Baha California one can easily do road trips, I get it that for some of you here you refuse to wait for the charge time on top of the cost. But early adopters like doing other things and for me, I see no reason when you stop for a 1hr lunch to not charge to full the auto then.

    As @Drew Dowdell has pointed out for all things plug in, it is a change of habits and an adjustment to life style where you plug in at night when you come home and start full in the morning compared to running out to the gas station.

    Change is good, but not always easy for everyone and I get that there can be many points made against any technology and any change.

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    2 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Bigger question to ask is how many people are just waiting for GM, Ford, FCA, etc to bring out the EV Trucks and SUVs to buy as they want to reduce the amount of maintenance an ICE auto

    About 5% of the market, maybe 6.

    I see no reason when you stop for a 1hr lunch to not charge to full the auto...


    I for one like lunch to last for no more than 10 mins. Got stuff to do. Dont most businesses give employees 45 or 60 mins at the most? By the time you buzz to the charger station, hopefully find an empty charger, AND drive back, you’re not getting an hour’s juice.

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    32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    About 5% of the market, maybe 6.

     


    I for one like lunch to last for no more than 10 mins. Got stuff to do. Don't most businesses give employees 45 or 60 mins at the most? By the time you buzz to the charger station, hopefully find an empty charger, AND drive back, you’re not getting an hour’s juice.

    Here every business is required to have dedicated charging spots at work, but also at restaurants. As such, stopping at a place to sit down, you pull into one of the charging sports, plug in and go eat. I get the west coast is far more EV friendly than the east coast as such you are correct that you would not get a full 1hr charge if your having to find a charging place. In time more I am sure will get installed making it easier.

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    But 'here' is one city, not the country at large. Anecdotal.

    What if you bring lunch/eat at your desk due to either preference or job dictates? 

    Here's the chargers near me:
    • Tesla, 8 chargers at a lone Panera Bread.
    • nissan dealer, for nissan leaf, 2 different plugs, no food within walking.
    • hyndai dealer, 1 type of plug, McD & BK a 1/4 mile away.
    • kia dealer, 1 charger, must get dealer permission to charge, some food about a 1/2 mile away.
    • Ford dealer, 1 charger, Fords only, a few places within a mile of walking.
    • Turnpike plaza (if you want to pay to use Turnpike and deal with the 180 to get back to work), I'm sure the usual fast food is there. Has 2 different plugs there, nissans charge free.
    • a college parking deck I'm pretty positive you have to pay to get into. Recommended you stay with your car or risk getting towed, deck gates only stay open on weekends. I believe it'd be a dozen blocks to the college grease trucks but don't know it they're there on weekends.
    • township building, dual station, open 7Am to 11PM 7 days, no food within walking.

    Just sounds like a major pain in the ass to deal with, and it seems the 'unicorn scenarios' where you drive right up to an unoccupied charger and walk 100' to a appealing food source, doesn't exist around here.

    I know; anecdotal. ;)

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    19 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Correct; 2.7L.

    Ram's V6 e-torque adds 12 HP and 39 TRQ. I added that much [15/35] to my old F-150 300 I-6 via a chip and I can attest from experience; you cannot discern that little of a power bump. Ie-Torque also ADDS 105 lbs, lessening the benefit. Besides, the Ram e-torque 3.6 still has less HP & TRQ than the Chevy 2.7T  [305/269 vs. 310/348]. Hell, the Ram is no better than the Chevy 4.3 V6 [285/305].

    Know what I think? People should buy the 5.3L [355/383].

    The Ram 3.6 V6 is rated a combined 4 mpg higher than the Chevy 4.3 V6.  The Ram V6 is also rated 1 mpg higher than the Chevy turbo 4.  So there must be some benefit, the Ram gets better gas mileage.

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    The thing with EV charging is you do it at home every night, so you don't spend 10 minutes per week at a gas station.  An EV saves you 520 minutes per year not standing at a gas station.  Then it saves you more time for needing less maintenance, fewer oil changes, less brake pad changes, etc.  If the trade off for that is having to spend an hour at a super charger the one time a year you decide to drive 500-600 miles in a day, then so be it.

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    How did you come up with ‘10 minutes’?

    But like Ive documented here before- I see 250-330 mile range Teslas charging at 9AM- what explains that scenario?

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    Maybe 5 minutes just to fill a tank, but you still have to pull in, park, pay inside if you don't at the pump, maybe that gas station is not on your exact route that day so you to go a bit out of the way to get to the gas station.  I just figured 10 minutes is a good average amount of time out of the day if you had to go to a gas station.

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    6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The thing with EV charging is you do it at home every night, so you don't spend 10 minutes per week at a gas station.  An EV saves you 520 minutes per year not standing at a gas station.  Then it saves you more time for needing less maintenance, fewer oil changes, less brake pad changes, etc.  

    EV have brakes also, so you still have to do those.  And who spends 10 minutes at a gas station?  If there is a line, maybe...normally, pull up, pay at the pump, fill up, pull out..less than 5 min (every two weeks in my case).

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    47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Ram 3.6 V6 is rated a combined 4 mpg higher than the Chevy 4.3 V6.  The Ram V6 is also rated 1 mpg higher than the Chevy turbo 4.  So there must be some benefit, the Ram gets better gas mileage.

    I’m seeing the 2.7L rated the same 20 mpg city as the Ram 3.6., with better power, so for those who value that combo- get the 2.7T.

    Ah- I read ‘10 mins to charge’, not fuel. 5-10 mins total is reasonable, but obviously 10 mins to charge does nothing.

    Edited by balthazar

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    I gassed up today. Not quite empty like I usually do, I had around 20 miles left as per the car computer. 

    It took 3-4 minutes for the pump to go gloo gloo gloo up to the brim and at least 1 -2 minutes to pay.  So yeah...about 5 minutes sounds about right.   But today though, I had to wait in line to use the pump so about another 5 minutes went by.  So 10 minutes in total. But usually though....5 minutes. 

    Ive used that same pump before though, and at least 3 times in the past, it actually seemed like an eternity to fill up. ONly at that particular pump in that particular gas station.  Im guessing 8-10 minutes to go from empty empty to full full...    

    SMK's story is very plausible though. We shouldn't question his numbers because sometimes it will take us 5 minutes to gas up while other times it may take 10.

    Over the holidays I had to wait 15 minutes to pay because one old man wanted to buy a ton of lottery tickets along with his gas.  My fault though as I could have paid with my bank card/credit card at the pump without having to go inside to pay...     I dont do that...lots of fraud with that where I live. So always cash it is when gassing up for me...

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    I always pay at the pump because it's more efficient and I don't have to go inside and deal with human resource units.   And I hate cash because that leads to change. 

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    41 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    EV have brakes also, so you still have to do those.  

    Pads should last 100k miles+ if you adjust to one pedal driving on a BEV.

     

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    It also takes time to drive to the gas station, and exit the gas station.  And in winter you stand in the cold pumping gas.

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    52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    It also takes time to drive to the gas station, and exit the gas station.  And in winter you stand in the cold pumping gas.

    Yeah, but going to the gas station is not generally something you make a special trip to do, unless you are really bored.... I always fill up at the same station on the main road outside my subdivision, so it's just a stop while on my way somewhere else, no different than going through the bank drive-thru down the same street.   And standing in the cold is no big deal, I dress for winter weather.    Getting gas is not a big deal that some make out to be, just one of those little tasks in life.    Not a big deal either when out of town on a road trip either, gas stations are abundant...

    Having to plug in an EV in my garage after a drive would be simpler in theory, but the problem is remembering to do it.  

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    EV's can wireless charge in a garage.

    But are they automatic? Is it something the driver would have to turn on...

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    33 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    But are they automatic? Is it something the driver would have to turn on...

    I always assumed automatic, same way a phone can wireless charge.

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    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    Getting gas is not a big deal that some make out to be, just one of those little tasks in life.    Not a big deal either when out of town on a road trip either, gas stations are abundant...

    Having to plug in an EV in my garage after a drive would be simpler in theory, but the problem is remembering to do it

    Im assuming, that you dont forget to gas up. Im assuming, the majority of the folk that drive gas and diesel powered cars, do not, for the most part, forget to gas up. 

    Why would plugging in an EV car be any different?  

    It will become just one of those little tasks in life when owning an EV...

    Cell phones have been a common commodity since the mid 1980s. Exploded unto the scene since the 1990s. 

    Laptops have a similar timeline to cell phones and along with tablets...also require to plug in.

    Today, we charge headphones, drills, electric mowers, grass trimmers....toothbrushes....

    Like gasoline and diesel cars, EVs, cell phones, tablets, PCs all have a gauge to tell us that gasoline or battery power is low and it may be time to fuel up or power up and recharge.  In all honesty, anyone forgetting to fuel up or recharge may be a dummy in my eyes...

    If getting gas is no big deal, then plugging in at the comfort of your own home, should not be a big deal either...if anything, its less of a hassle than to drive to a gas station to fill up.   Not in theory, but in reality.   And one does not need to experience an EV for one to come to that conclusion either. One could easily see that advantage a mile away. 

    If one gets a wireless charging station at home....by God...there is really nothing to do but to drive to your parking spot in just the right spot so the magnetic coils in the charger align with the magnetic coils in the car and voila...hands free...like everything else we like in today's lazy world.  

    Like you, I only gas up every 14 days or so, give or take a day or two, and the gas station is along my drive,  but even with that,  Id rather not stop and gas up....Id rather plug in at home. Yes....Im one of those lazy folk I just bitched about in the previous paragraph. 

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    True that..just something else to plug in.  I often run my laptop, tablet and cell phone down to 5% or less.  Charging electronics is part of daily life in the modern world, but I am bad about remembering to plug in...especially my tablet.  My Ring doorbell camera is down to 5%, got to charge it tomorrow...my electric razor needs charged, but I only shave once a week or so in winter..working at home has made me so lazy about some things...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    EV have brakes also, so you still have to do those.  And who spends 10 minutes at a gas station?  If there is a line, maybe...normally, pull up, pay at the pump, fill up, pull out..less than 5 min (every two weeks in my case).

    Avereage brake jobs on Hybrids are lasting 100,000 miles so still much less maintenance than traditional ICE auto's. 

    If you have a small car or CUV to Medium, then yes under 10 min to fill and you have stated you fill at half a tank so always quick to top off. I know I spend 20 min fueling at the gas station as the full size SUV's, aka Escalade ESV and Suburban SLE have way bigger tanks than your Jeep has. Anyone wanting a full size truck to pull with will and should always get the bigger tank option than the smaller ones.

    Plus depending on how the gas station services their own pumps and the dirty level of the filters, you can easily spend 10 to 15 min fueling at the pump on a mid size auto.

    Just my own observations IMHO.

    57 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    But are they automatic? Is it something the driver would have to turn on...

    Yes all the wireless pads you can have installed are automatic. The 3rd party ones are compatible with the Leaf, Bolt, Volt, i3, i8 and Tesla. That removes the whole cord thing, just drive over it, get out, lock the auto and go in if outside, otherwise just get out and go about your life that night, next morning full battery charge.

    My plans are for the wireless pads in my garage once we buy an EV.

    Here is a good writeup about the current state of Wireless Charging:

    https://chargedevs.com/features/whats-the-current-state-of-wireless-ev-charging/

    What%E2%80%99s-the-current-state-of-wire

    See the source image

    Nice thing is that with the auto's you do not have to be perfect just drive over it and they will grab and charge the battery as long as the bulk of the pad is somewhere under the auto.

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    Sound like you have some bad gas stations. I couldn’t  imagine taking over 10 minutes to fill a midsize vehicle.  My Jeep has a 24.x gallon tank, I don’t think I’ve ever spent over 10 minutes filling up even when down to an 1/8th. 

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    5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Sound like you have some bad gas stations. I couldn’t  imagine taking over 10 minutes to fill a midsize vehicle.  My Jeep has a 24.x gallon tank, I don’t think I’ve ever spent over 10 minutes filling up even when down to an 1/8th. 

    Costco is always fast, they keep their system running great and is the fastest to fill, Kroger sucks big time, I have never had more problems fueling than at a Krogers. Seems dirty filters and poor vacume recovery system of the fumes causes them to constantly turn off.

    With smartphones, I have seen so many start gassing and then play with their phone, bet it takes longer than most people realize. Will have to time my next fill up.

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    You should get a 'big truck' diesel; Duramax uses the same large nozzles the semi's do. ;)
    I will have to time it, but pretty sure 18-19 gallons takes less than 2 mins.

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    True; there are a lot of folk living in hi rises or townhouses or have no driveways (urban areas) for whom charging is an impossibility. I have a 2-car garage on my house, plus a 4-bay in the back, but my truck parks outside, over stone and about 25’ from the house. A ‘pad’ / a cord draped across the ground is not desirable in SO many scenarios.

    Read an article recently where a Canadian homeowner was denied making an on-lawn parking spot in front of his home for his EV because of restrictions for non-permiable surfaces and zoning issues. I assume he wanted his car closer to enable 'cording' his car overnight.

    Edited by balthazar

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    8 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Costco is always fast, they keep their system running great and is the fastest to fill, Kroger sucks big time, I have never had more problems fueling than at a Krogers. Seems dirty filters and poor vacume recovery system of the fumes causes them to constantly turn off.

    With smartphones, I have seen so many start gassing and then play with their phone, bet it takes longer than most people realize. Will have to time my next fill up.

    Never tried grocery gas stations...I stick with the Shell or BP near my house.   I just filled up from 1/8th of tank last week, should have timed it. 

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    https://electricautonomy.ca/2019/06/24/solving-the-electric-vehicle-garage-orphans-problem/

    https://lecircuitelectrique.com/welcome

     

    Garage orphans would be the name for this latest EV concern.  There are many ways to overcome this.  But it takes a change in the mindset of the federal government, the provincial government (or in the US...the individual state government), the municipal government, the local businesses including gas stations and the people...

    Above are two links. Canadian point of views and what Canada and some of its provinces do to help change the landscape of how we drive gas powered cars to to ease the change to electrics. The second link is what Quebec does. What are its plans for the future and how it eases the use of EVs in our province.

    Quebec.  We have hydro-electric power. Its a crown corporation that provides us with electricity. Which also means, it makes financial sense for us to switch to EVs because the money that costs to produce and sell electricity to people of Quebec, stays in our province... We have also have an abundance of it that we also sell to New York, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, and some parts of Ontario. Maybe there are other states and provinces...

    We've talked about how local businesses, such as restaurants, grocery stores, hardware stores could partner up with the 1 or 2 or all 3 levels of government to provide  chargers. 

    1 or 2 or all 3 levels of government could provide on the street, many streets, in many urban areas street chargers. In Dowtown Montreal we got lots of them.

    Image result for Montreal downtown street charging stations"

     

    Image result for Montreal downtown street charging stations"

    It says...no parking except EVs that want to recharge.

    Image result for Montreal downtown street charging stations"

     

    And lastly, gas stations themselves...could provide EV stations.

    Petro-Canada has started to create its own charging network in their gasoline stations across Canada...

    Image result for Petro Canada EV stations"

    Where there is a will, there is a way.

    If citizens want to resist change, then that is a whole 'nother ball game. 

    But...300 mile range EVs are gonna be common place from 2020 and on.  That number will go up 2-3 years from now. 

    Fast fast fast supercharging is but 2 years away also. That means that to get an additional 30-40-50-miles of range, it will be done in 10-15 minutes, if not in less time and for more range even, which also means, THAT would be almost on par to refueling your car with gasoline. 

    Now...I am NOT saying EVs are the way of your future because I understand politics, I understand people dont want change, I understand how electricity is made and in some places, coal powered plants are STILL in use. In some places, nuclear is also frowned upon so its hard, almost impossible, for a mass migration to electric from gas...

    In Quebec, where I live. We dont seem to have much resistance for us to go from gas to electric. Its easy peasey for us...

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    On 1/19/2020 at 2:45 PM, balthazar said:

    THEY’VE ALREADY DONE IT.

    Not with a warranty, they have not. 

    Requiring a warranty over 50-60,000 miles is a game changer for engineers. 

    On 1/19/2020 at 3:02 PM, riviera74 said:

    The V8 will still survive and probably thrive here in the USA until BEVs render the entire line of ICE engines obsolete.  That may not happen for another 15-20 years minimum. 

    MB will simply sell the AMG models where the V8 is not somehow banned, like the USA or the Middle East.  Now if $5/gal or higher ever returns, then AMG (and a lot of other vehicles) will have a problem finding customers.

    I agree but it's funny to think somebody who can afford $80,000-$100,000+ for a vehicle would scare at a ~$2.00 per gallon raise. 

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    23 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I see no reason when you stop for a 1hr lunch to not charge to full the auto then.

    Isn't the idea of an EV to charge at home, for even less cost? 

    It seems way more inconvenient to try and charge over a lunch period than to just charge at home. 

    15 hours ago, balthazar said:

    How did you come up with ‘10 minutes’?

    But like Ive documented here before- I see 250-330 mile range Teslas charging at 9AM- what explains that scenario?

    Tesla Superchargers? 

    Free. 

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    You’d think, in the grand plan scheme, that public chargers for EVs would ideally only be on interstates and at offices, as ‘home fueling’ would basically eliminate street chargers’ neccessity.

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    11 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    Sound like you have some bad gas stations. I couldn’t  imagine taking over 10 minutes to fill a midsize vehicle.  My Jeep has a 24.x gallon tank, I don’t think I’ve ever spent over 10 minutes filling up even when down to an 1/8th. 

    I think his point is an average of 10 minutes including turning in(sometimes in a line), the fueling process, and pulling out(also sometimes waiting for traffic). Just the fueling is only about 1-3 minutes depending on tank size. 

    I believe I timed a 10 gallon fill-up once because @dfelt and I were talking about it and it was about 1:20 for ~10 gallons. It's somewhere on this site...haha

    6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    You’d think, in the grand plan scheme, that public chargers for EVs would ideally only be on interstates and at offices, as ‘home fueling’ would basically eliminate street chargers’ neccessity.

    Oh yeah, when range is increased and more and more homes get chargers, the only time you'd need to publicly charge is when taking longer trips. 

    The only people I could see charging over their lunch break is people with a Volt(or similarly short-range EVs) who have to drive ~40 miles to work and can make it home with a top-off over lunch.. Otherwise it seems like a completely unnecessary process over lunch. I would never do that, especially because it would cost me more than charging at my house. 

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    8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Isn't the idea of an EV to charge at home, for even less cost? 

    It seems way more inconvenient to try and charge over a lunch period than to just charge at home. 

    Tesla Superchargers? 

    Free. 

    Yes for local trips, but if your on a road trip, makes sense to charge over lunch.

    Tesla is NOT free to Tesla 3 owners. Also many S & X owners have to pay too. They have not done free for everyone. Just select options / models.

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    40 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Tesla is NOT free to Tesla 3 owners. Also many S & X owners have to pay too. They have not done free for everyone. Just select options / models.

    Musk turns the tap off & on at whim. I read recent info that the performance Model 3 was free, again, at the Superchargers. Piece I read claimed he does it to goose sales.

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    I thought S and X were always free and the 3 was "come and go" with offering it. 

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    4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    I thought S and X were always free and the 3 was "come and go" with offering it. 

    Nope, at the beginning the S&X  regardless of model and options were all free, but then later on only the top model versions or extended range batteries had charging for free. Later as @balthazar has pointed out, Musk turns the tap on and off depending on sales, models, etc. on the need to keep things going.

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    I don't see Ford offering free gas, so I don't know why people expect Tesla to offer free electricity.

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    11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    I don't see Ford offering free gas, so I don't know why people expect Tesla to offer free electricity.

    Only because it was a pretty big marketing tool they used to sell their vehicles.

    "Buy our vehicle and never pay for fuel!" 

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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    I don't see Ford offering free gas, so I don't know why people expect Tesla to offer free electricity.

    I am willing to bet that MB will pull such tactics also to get their EV line selling. Might not be free electricity, but they will have some other grab for possible buyers to get pulled into buying the EV badge.

    Just like Rivian is including the Tank Mode now for all AWD 4 motor auto's.

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    23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    I am willing to bet that MB will pull such tactics also to get their EV line selling.

    One wonders if the bean counters will approve the funds to pull the stunt.
    With the diesel issue clouding image & costing major money

    Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 10.16.47 AM.png

    and profits halving / the profit margin down to 4% AND going hard into unprofitable EVs, things may get extremely lean in the coming years.

    Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 10.13.11 AM.png

    Edited by balthazar
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    @balthazar MB also keeps saying that China and the US are key markets to grow. If so, then they will have to ramp up their sales here which I can see being ICE focused as they deal with the China forced EV change of ramping sales there. Europe also is not backing away from moving to Hybrid / EV of all auto's so they are going to have to invest and find a way to be profitable.

    Tesla is selling every 3 they build now in Shanghi and are getting on average of 20 new orders per day there, with a $20,000 drop in price it is amazing going from $75K to $55K how sales can jump.

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    Mercedes needs their own battery factories to open.  Those are under construction now, but their issue is they can’t get enough batteries from suppliers like LG.  And they have to sell more EV’s in Europe to get their CO2 numbers down or they face up to a billion dollars in fines.  And it isn’t just them it is everyone.  So these car companies are going to push EV’s to avoid fines.

    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    One wonders if the bean counters will approve the funds to pull the stunt.
    With the diesel issue clouding image & costing major money

    Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 10.16.47 AM.png

    and profits halving / the profit margin down to 4% AND going hard into unprofitable EVs, things may get extremely lean in the coming years.

    Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 10.13.11 AM.png

    They still made over $6 billion in profit last year.  They’ll be fine.   And there will be some lean years because they have to pour money into EV development.  But once it is all EG and gas/diesel is gone they will be more profitable because vehicle design and manufacturing will be easier.

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    What if it halves again to $3 B in 2020? EVs are going to depress that even further. Stockholders aren’t going to sit by and watch profits dry up. How much longer is daimler going to drag out settling Dieselgate? 

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      The Tesla Model 3 nearly broke into the top 10 best selling vehicles in Europe for September 2019, missing the mark by just 217 units.  Overall, sales growth in the EU is strong with 14 markets reporting positive numbers.  Germany came in at 9.1 percent and Italy came in at 6.5 percent.  Battery electric vehicles were up sharply, increasing 119 percent, of which Tesla controlled nearly 50% of that number.  Total Tesla registrations were 19,500 out of the 40,700 BEVs registered.  That put the Tesla Model 3 as the best selling BEV in Europe. 
      For September, the Volkwagen Golf was the best selling vehicle in Europe with 32,398 units registered. 
      Tesla shares jumped 18 percent yesterday after a surprise profit for Q3 of $1.86 per share, up from an expected loss of 42 cents per share. 
    • By Drew Dowdell
      Rumor has it that the next AMG C63 will be the first of a number of models to ditch their V8 in favor of 4-cylinder hybrid power. According to Autocar, the C63 could also lose a rear-wheel drive option, going instead with standard all-wheel drive. 
      The engine would be an electrified version of the new M139 turbocharged 2.0-liter.  In it's most powerful current form, it is the most powerful 4-cylinder in production anywhere putting out 416 horsepower and 369 lb-ft of torque, and that's without any electric boosting.  The engine was engineered to be mounted transversely or longitudinally and also with an eye on hybridization.
      For the C63, the M139 engine would adopt a 48 volt starter motor similar to the one used in the CLS 53 4Matic.  On that car, the motor provides an additional 22 hp and 184 lb-ft of torque, however in the C63, it would be tuned for even more power to reach up to a total system horsepower over 500. 
      One main advantage to this setup would be a significant reduction in weight over the front axle.  Additionally, the engine/motor combination has a lower center of gravity, that would be expected to improve handling and control. 
      Moving the C63 to a hybrid powertrain is consistent with Mercedes' desire to reduce fleet CO2 emissions.

      View full article
    • By Drew Dowdell
      Rumor has it that the next AMG C63 will be the first of a number of models to ditch their V8 in favor of 4-cylinder hybrid power. According to Autocar, the C63 could also lose a rear-wheel drive option, going instead with standard all-wheel drive. 
      The engine would be an electrified version of the new M139 turbocharged 2.0-liter.  In it's most powerful current form, it is the most powerful 4-cylinder in production anywhere putting out 416 horsepower and 369 lb-ft of torque, and that's without any electric boosting.  The engine was engineered to be mounted transversely or longitudinally and also with an eye on hybridization.
      For the C63, the M139 engine would adopt a 48 volt starter motor similar to the one used in the CLS 53 4Matic.  On that car, the motor provides an additional 22 hp and 184 lb-ft of torque, however in the C63, it would be tuned for even more power to reach up to a total system horsepower over 500. 
      One main advantage to this setup would be a significant reduction in weight over the front axle.  Additionally, the engine/motor combination has a lower center of gravity, that would be expected to improve handling and control. 
      Moving the C63 to a hybrid powertrain is consistent with Mercedes' desire to reduce fleet CO2 emissions.
    • By Drew Dowdell
      Back on June 7th, Mercedes-AMG unveiled their newest 4-cylinder engine, and their most powerful.  Producing 416 horsepower and 369 lb.-ft of torque in the S Version, it is currently the most powerful 4-cylinder engine currently in production.  AMG is also making a base version with 382 horsepower and 354 lb.-ft of torque, both in transverse applications. Initially, this engine will debut in the Mercede A45 S AMG and Mercedes CLA 45 S AMG.  According to AMG head, Tobias Moers, expect to see use of this engine expand to other product lines. 
      According the Moers, the engine was designed from the start to be able to be mounted as longitudinal engines.  So while it probably won't become a C45 or E45, it could become the standard engine in the C43 or E53.  It is also capable of accepting electrification making for an even more powerful option. 
      This strategy of combining a small displacement 4-cylinder with electrification could contribute to Mercedes' strategy of stopping development of new internal combustion engine families. 
  • Posts

    • '65-67 Corvettes, esp. convertibles look great in that pale yellow they had back then. Bright yellow was an iconic color for the '69-70 Boss 302 Mustang.    Today, bright orange or bright yellow seem to be popular on the GT models of Porsches and more exotic fare like Lambos, but I prefer Porsches in the more subtle colors, like dark brown or dark green...  The upcoming Bronco 2dr looks good in orange, at least in pictures..
    • More feel-good marketing spin. EVERY brand out there has -or will in the next 11 minutes- claim the very same thing.
    • I like this pair, father and son...   Thjey ahve a lot fo fun, make a lot of sense...
    • Hella yella looks good on the new 2020/2021 Wrangler.  Orange looked good on the 69 Camaro and SS 396 Chevelle, 69 Judge, etc.  As much as I am going to wash my fingers with soap for even typing this, the Kia Soul looks fantastic in bright colors (Horse heads for soap for typing this...) Depends on the vehicle.  Some Street rods look good in yellow or Orange....the Coupe from American Graffiti for example.  I can see why Yellow would be a poor choice on a HD Diesel truck. Or a B59.  But Mayfair Maze was a fantastic color for 1960's Pontiacs. But 1960's Pontiacs and 1930's Fords are some of the most aestheically pleasing vehicles ever built...they would still look good covered in cow shit for that matter.    And with a two tone white, GMC/Chevy trucks of the 67/72 Era looked good in orange. Or the period Yellow. I would rock one without complaint. 
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