Hogans_Heroes

Future of the Union

187 posts in this topic

Here is a Pdf of the ballyhooed Delphi-UAW letter: http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/uaw/o...updatefront.jpg http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/uaw/o...rupdateback.jpg

I have to say I've been sitting on similar stuff for a very very long time, but cannot go into detail.

This is coming to a head, folks. Pretty much everything's in the public domain now, whether it be (paid) Wall Street analyst reports, mainstream media, or "futureoftheunion". Automotive News is now reporting: http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=13500


There is going to be a lot of sensational reporting in the coming days and weeks. Yet what I think the situation requires is cool circumspection. Take a step back. $12/hr for line work? Wage and benefits packages of $18? Plenty of people would have you believe Delphi and Visteon were pushed out of the nest too early. That they were doomed to failure and that this is in and of itself a failure.

Now I cannot sit here in 2005 and attempt to ascertain with any certainty whether this could have been envisioned in the minds of GM and Ford executives half a decade prior. 1999, 2000: very different days. Ford did have to swallow a bitter pill earlier this year with the reaquisition of underperforming plants. GM, too, is going to take a significant hit (bodyblow!) no matter how this turns out. But - again - step back for a moment. Delphi has 180,000 employees. Dozens of thousands in the US. I can think of no plausible scenario under which the wage and benefit packages of these (GM Automotove Components Group / GM Delphi Automotive Systems) employees could have been brought down to competitive levels except under the very scenario which is unfolding before our eyes. Edited by Hogans_Heroes
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It's called mismanagement. Take these damn seat holders/board folk accountable for what they do and say and run with it. If they can't get the job done (READ; WAGONER) then get their asses out of the f&*cking seat. I'm so sick of hearing about the Unions and what SHOULD be done or should have BEEN done to what is going on now. Fiat got BILLIONS earlier this year...and it seems as if Delphi will too......all on Wagoner’s watch. Hold these God Damn (Yes I said it!) CEO's accountable for their actions and go from there. Change has to happen at the top. Why does the Union get charged for the process they build a vehicle in, and under what materials they build it under which is HANDED DOWN from the management staff? Unbelievable! This "movement" of non-Union workers will cause this site to close from non-functionality nor payment. It's ridiculous!
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"It's called mismanagement. Take these damn seat holders/board folk accountable for what they do and say and run with it. If they can't get the job done (READ; WAGONER) then get their asses out of the f&*cking seat."


Josh, certainly there should be management accountability for the troubles of what was once the greatest company in the world. And GM is a case-study in mismanagement; I am in complete agreement with you there. While it does appear some of the concessions won by the UAW over the years from the automakers was bound to be unsustainable (at least in the case of inherited concessions at the spun-off parts makers), the speed at which some of these wins will need to be surrendered is certainly hastened by significant bungling and ineptness on the part of management.

By the way, I'm REALLY getting to like this website: http://futureoftheunion.com/docs/uaw/Delph...egotiations.pdf
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Third paragraph says it all: Elimination of Job Banks? Who in the hell are they kidding? Lay you off basically meaning they are screwed over with no help in sight? This is nothing more short of saying "If we go under....you're fucked." What is going on in this industry is nothing short than what the airlines have already faced and continue to face today. Insane.
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Third paragraph says it all: Elimination of Job Banks? Who in the hell are they kidding? Lay you off basically meaning they are screwed over with no help in sight?

This is nothing more short of saying "If we go under....you're fucked."

What is going on in this industry is nothing short than what the airlines have already faced and continue to face today.

Insane.

[post="25103"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



Very Sad-but true Josh...

I can tell you now that this is going to happen soon..and Gm is staying out of this..
and that is not counting the layoffs...which should reduce their staff by 20-30%...

There is nothing that the UAW can do....

They might be better off just letting Delphi just fall into chapter 11..

If they agree to terms with Delpli-GM may chase them down for even further
cuts...

this is going to get very nasty...
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The always excellent Daniel Howes:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0510/07/A01-340908.htm

"GM isn't keen to bail out its offspring, nor can the union take the proffered "deal" and still claim to be a union."

"Never before have UAW workers been asked to absorb such Draconian cuts -- not in the dark days of the Chrysler bailout, the oil shocks of the 1970s or the periodic crunches since. The sickening part for those at Delphi trying to put in a day's work is that rejecting the demands won't make them go away, because they're considered "market rate" outside the UAW-Big Three bubble and are likely to return during a bloody bankruptcy."

"Whether yours is a union house or a management house, whether your grandpa was at Ford's Battle of the Overpass in '37 or managed a plant for GM in '87, the significance of an impending Delphi bankruptcy and GM's parallel talks with the UAW for health care concessions cannot be overstated."

"A cornerstone of 20th-century industrial America, whose labor helped vanquish the Axis powers in World War II and laid the foundation for unparalleled prosperity, is perilously close to crumbling under the pressure of late-20th-century mismanagement and 21st-century competition."


===> It's touching, really. Reading those words. But it was bound to happen. And, as he and everyone else is pointing out, it's going to happen. Via negotiated terms or settled terms. Like Josh was saying about the airlines, the steel companies... I just cannot help but compare General Motors to Bethlehem Steel. No one could ever believe it could fall. And of course, in the end, that was part of the problem. Perhaps now interested parties might acknowledge that GM, too, can fall (talk about there being no joy in Mudville).
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The last time I checked, America runs a capitalist economy That means that no worker has a right to a job, no salesman has a right to a sale and no company has a right to stay in business People are missing the real issue in this : It's the American consumer who will ultimately determine whether the GM "network" (GM/Delphi/UAW) stays in business. And American consumers have said quite clearly that they will not pay prices that cover that network's cost structure.
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Outside of some government workers, no one has golden benefits like the autoworkers do. The golden goose is dead or dying - done in not so much by GM mismanagement as by this wonderful, race-to-the-bottom, post-modern world of ours. Next year, Malcolm Bricklin brings in cars from China. Either make concessions or the jobs are gone. Stark choice, but that's reality. The domestic content sticker on the new Ford Fusion reads 30 percent. The UAW's best shot is to demand in exchange for those concessions that American assembly and parts plants remain open. Give the employer the cost certainty it needs in exchange for job security. No other deal makes a lick of sense at this point. And a refusal to deal is suicide.
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Outside of some government workers, no one has golden benefits like the autoworkers do.  The golden goose is dead or dying - done in not so much by GM mismanagement as by this wonderful, race-to-the-bottom, post-modern world of ours.    Next  year,  Malcolm Bricklin brings in cars from China. 

Either make concessions or the jobs are gone. Stark choice,  but that's reality. The domestic content sticker on the new Ford Fusion reads 30 percent.    The UAW's best shot is to demand in exchange for those concessions that American assembly and parts plants remain open.    Give the employer the cost certainty it needs in exchange for job security.  No other deal makes a lick of sense at this point.  And a refusal to deal is suicide.

[post="25150"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I agree! Unions must make concessions or their job will be gone. It seems like common sense. Unions sit and say things like "We need to do research to see if GM has problems" and "We will make concessions ONLY in the confines of our contract". How can union workers get money through a contract with a company that dosen't exist any more? It really dosen't matter who is at fault, if the union doesn't make drastic cuts, they will be toast. Of coarse bankrupcy will not totally dimolish the company, but would force them to take drastic measures to survive (aka. move all jobs over seas).
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All of this is depressing but inevitable. The heady days of America's industrial might are over. The '50s and '60s are gone. Either America will adjust to the New Economy or perish. I believe America will flourish, but there will be pain. Blue collar (and I am talking about non-skilled jobs, not plumbers or electricians!) are not worth $30 an hour, plain and simple. They never were, but as long as productivity increases masked those inflated wages, and the marketing might of the Big Three convinced the consumer to buy their products at any price, everything was okay. I don't know how America will get through this. If she loses most of her industrial capacity to the emerging markets, it would spell disaster in another armed conflict. Sadly, Chapter 11 may be the only solution to prove to the Union that GM is serious. Sort of a dress rehearsal to UAW contract negotiations upcoming!
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The last time I checked, America runs a capitalist economy

That means that no worker has a right to a job, no salesman has a right to a sale and no company has a right to stay in business

People are missing the real issue in this :

It's the American consumer who will ultimately determine whether the GM "network" (GM/Delphi/UAW) stays in business.
 
And American consumers have said quite clearly that they will not pay prices that cover that network's cost structure.

[post="25133"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Actually, the fact that what you said is not entirely true is the problem here.

For some of America, what you said is true.

For other parts of America, there is no such thing as a capitalist economy. The automakers, workers, UAW live in that world (among others not important to this discussion). The Union contracts and the way that BOTH GM and the UAW have structured them have made them a socialistic business.

Now the problem is that in the era of Globalization (where the entire world slides more toward capitalism), an industry entrenched in socialism will have trouble surviving.
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I don't know how America will get through this.  If she loses most of her industrial capacity to the emerging markets, it would spell disaster in another armed conflict.

[post="25166"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


A few months ago I saw or read an interesting quote on what you brought up here, I cannot give the author credit though because I forgot where it came from.

When presented with the question about the continuing loss of the USA's manufacturing base...and what that could mean in a future global war, the response was "We'll just throw a service contract at the enemy".

Sad but true.
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All of this is depressing but inevitable.  The heady days of America's industrial might are over.  The '50s and '60s are gone.  Either America will adjust to the New Economy or perish.  I believe America will flourish, but there will be pain.
  Blue collar (and I am talking about non-skilled jobs, not plumbers or electricians!) are not worth $30 an hour, plain and simple.  They never were, but as long as productivity increases masked those inflated wages, and the marketing might of the Big Three convinced the consumer to buy their products at any price, everything was okay.
I don't know how America will get through this.  If she loses most of her industrial capacity to the emerging markets, it would spell disaster in another armed conflict.
  Sadly, Chapter 11 may be the only solution to prove to the Union that GM is serious.  Sort of a dress rehearsal to UAW contract negotiations upcoming!

[post="25166"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Yes, we are not (and probably never will be again) the industrial powerhouse we once were. Face it, countries like China have us beat when it comes to factory work. This is economic evolution folks. China will probably one day be in the same situation we are and then some place like China now will become the China of the future....and on, and on, and on.... The USA is not in major trouble if we play our cards right. The USA must evolve into a information, service, and engineering society. We can be in the position we once were when we were in industry. Instead of a worker turning a wrench in a factory, a worker would punch a key on a keyboard. Industrial countries like China are not going away, and the USA has to adjust for that.
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Revised front page of the Detroit Free Press, is that Delphi "approved a separation agreement for each of its 21 U.S. officers that bumps up their pay if they lose their jobs"
http://www.freep.com/index.htm

I think that's sweet. We'll take money from the UAW and give to ... US!!!
Kind of pisses me off!!
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I do not have time right now to go into details right now, but deflationary economics are playing themselves out.
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I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not. If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. Only to have a sharp decline in profits due to piss poor management cause the company bankruptcy? How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line. How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken. In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next.
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How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line.

How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken.

[post="25246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


They say it's about time because in many cases, the same thing has already happened to them.
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Actually Josh, I think it's great news for the industry. Not everything is a fight, not everything is an adversarial position. The most successful companies are the ones where employees and employers work together with pride toward a common product...the unions have not done that...ever. They have always looked out for their own best interests. That was good and all back in the day, but unfair labor practices are virtually outlawed in this day and age and the unions just add another layer of bureaucracy to the whole process. Josh, the emotional argument that these are lives and livlihoods at stake really doesn't do it with me. Face it, every industry has experienced this recently. Why should unionized autoworkers be above this? Do you want to blame Wagoner and Smith for this? I don't think so. The unions have brought it on themselves, and the writing has been on the wall. I don't want to make a sweeping generalization that autoworkers are ignorant, because they are not. Anyone, in any business, is ignorant if they are only a very specialized worker. One must present a portfolio of job skills to be competitive as an employee, and anyone who tried to buck this is, in my opinion, ignorant--autoworker or not. I don't want to come across like a jackass on this because I know it hits pretty close to home for you, but at the same time the writing was on the wall...this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
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I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not.

If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. Only to have a sharp decline in profits due to piss poor management cause the company bankruptcy?

How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line.

How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken.

In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next.

[post="25246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


The philosophy of the auto unions for years has been one of confrontation, not
co-operation. The old saying goes, one hand washes the other. That philosophy has not been upheld in any contempory union/management meetings. Instead
it has been,"what can or will you give ME!"-- on both sides.
Welcome to the real world of reality, where we now have new players, China,
Korea, and yes even Japan, who do not play by our "old rules".
While consumers were locked in to a limited market choice, you could play fast and loose with these rules, but now that these third world players have come to the marketplace, it is time to re-think the rules.
I can remember one time Iococca telling the beligerant Belvidere,IL. plant, I
have 2000 jobs @ $18.00/hr(or something like that) and 0 jobs @ $22.00/hr!
That's reality!
I was one of those caught in a market change, with 3 hours notice to not let the
door hit me in the ass on the way out--- the company was "downsizing"!..........
And nobody bailed me out!
I agree that some of these mega bonuses and salary differentials that have
existed in American companies are rediculous!
But don't close down a company because of past bad decisions..... learn from them, and FIX IT...... and the fix has to start somewhere, too bad it is now.
I do agree, that the bleeding should be even...... on both sides of the table,
if the company is going to continue to exist.
Don't forget every employee is also a consumer, and without a paycheck,
he can't consume! :(
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When our grandfathers worked at GM, Ford and Dodge, the companies were raking in millions a year, they own 90% of America. Well guess what, its not 1953 anymore. :rolleyes:
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The auto business is in a deflationary cycle and has been for some years now. The auto companies are under a negative pricing situation. In real terms car prices are coming down and OEMs are forced to take cost out of the vehicle. Josh this has very little to do with mis-management but market conditions have been changing and the US companies have done a lot to cut cost and work within the frame work of the UAW contracts to make that happen. But there is a point that is being reached where there needs to be a drastic change to the cost structure of these companies. This is not an option but a must if Visteon, Dephi, GM, Ford are to survive. Other smaller suppliers that have UAW workers do not pay anywhere close to the wages that the above companies pay. The smaller suppliers pay in the 15 -10 range. Think about it this way, either the UAW agrees to the Delphi demands now, or through bandruptcy later. If not Delphi could take all those jobs to Mexico or other low cost nation or region. The realities are for the UAW workers at Delphi, do you want a job or not? Edited by evok
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Anyone who has followed my posts in the past knows that I am not a big union supporter and I believe that a person should rise or fall based on their own strengths and skills; however, I have to add that I sometimes shake my head when I see what various Boards do. As a group of people hired to represent the owners (shareholders), the Board has sweeping powers over the company that they preside. A case in point: Sears Canada just sold off their credit card division, paid a special dividend and then laid off 1,000 workers. Now I don't claim to know what is going on inside Sears, but if they just sold off their most profitable division for a big chunk of change then paid off their shareholders - what is going to be left over to ward off Wal-Mart? If costs must be cut and workers laid off, why bribe the shareholders? Next, we're going to see Sears going under because Wal-Mart kicked their ass! I don't know. As a layperson on the outside, it just doesn't make sense to me. It certainly doesn't seem fair to the 1,000 workers, but then "fair" has little to do with the free market. Unfortunately, the owners of the company do have the right to run the company as they see fit - no matter how badly the rest of us think they may or may not be doing. The unions have every right to oppose clawbacks or cutbacks also as they see fit. But if somebody doesn't do something soon, both the Board members and the UAW brass will be putting out their resumes.
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>>I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is >>to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not. Correct, it will affect all...but not disasterous for all. Some it will benefit, and not just the stock holders. Someone's loss is always someone else's gain. >>If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back >>everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. This is not contextually true, and appeals to the emotions rather than historical accurateness. What our grandfathers (mine too, by the way) fought against was exploitation of the worker. Large corporations were making billions and the workers were being worked to death for pennies a week. Literally, people were dying for money that wouldn't put food on the table. As the country evolved from a farming society to an industrial one, cheap labor - cheap meaning exploitable, abounded. Families sold their farms and moved to the city not because they wanted to, but because they were forced to. Big agriculture put the family farm out of business. Knocking at the door of the industrialists were the starving families willing to work to death....and that's exactly what the industrialists did to them. Fast forward to today's society, things are much different. The Unionized worker makes more than anyone else. The big corporations aren't drowning in profit...they are sinking in debt and losses. Today's worker is *HARDLY* exploited. C'mon now. Heck, they get paid *NOT* to work. What do think our grandfathers would say about the whining of today's workers? They'd tell us to shut up, then beat the crap out of us for being lazy, entitled, selfish pricks. Our grandfathers didn't even have Social Security. There's no way you can compare workers from 3 generations ago, to our workforce today. No way, no how. We don't have a work force. We have a "want force". >>How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and >>say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake >>here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" >>but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to >>provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the >>line. When it means the destruction of a huge corporation, I have no qualms in knocking the Union demands. Back when GM had no competition, the Unions could claim their fair share of the pie. Today however, GM has competition, and is fighting for its survival. Their competition makes as good as or better products for less. Period. I don't like to admit it, but I can't ignore the truth. Furthermore, those Americans who are working in Toyota shops are glad to have their jobs. They are making fairly comparable wages, and are by no means at all exploited. Socioeconomic conditions change. So must the business practices. I don't think anyone really believes Union workers are stupid and ignorant. I don't. >>How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate >>America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and >>applaud for a final action being taken. >>In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and >>worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next. This is going to seem like I am talking out of both sides of my neck, but I agree wtih you here. CEO's *DO* need to be held accountable. I also believe that there has been and always will be a current to break the strangleholds of the Unions. Its in the interest of Big Business. Its just that as the ebb and tide of economics rolls along, each party in the struggle will have to give up some of its territory. Today, the Unions are going to have to give a little in order to survive. greg
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This will be one of the ugliest pages in American history. We have been telling how this day was coming for decades. Our corporations started this direction decades before they even began selling the "global" plan. Its not survivable by any of the parties invloved so all and any effort is pointless. Good job America. Keep patting yourself on your so called "multi skilled :lol: " back. Must be nice living on that cloud. Everybodys going to get their turn eating this pile of shit. What goes around comes around.
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This will be one of the ugliest pages in American history. We have been telling how this day was coming for decades. Our corporations started this direction decades before they even began selling the "global" plan.

Its not survivable by any of the parties invloved so all and any effort is pointless. Good job America. Keep patting yourself on your so called "multi skilled  :lol: " back.

Must be nice living on that cloud. Everybodys going to get their turn eating this pile of shit. What goes around comes around.

[post="25288"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Why don't you make a post that means something every now and then? You know, instead of throwing around hyperboles.
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