GME to invest $9B in Opel

[wildcat]

worldcarfans.com reported the story:

click here

[CSpec]

€9billion, not dollars. That's a lot of money. Makes sense seeing as how Opel is well ahead in making efficient cars, in both size and mileage.

[SuperSport623]

how bout 9 Bill for Pontiac?

[wildcat]

€9billion, not dollars.

Yes, you're right. Euro 9 billion.

But I'm surprised neither of you guys said anything about "20 new models" ( ! ).

[ZL-1]

9 billion Euros is a lot of money: USD 13.95 billion @ USD1.55/1Euro

Edited May 2, 2008 by ZL-1

[Northstar]

How big is the European market? To have 20 new models and only 10% market share seems like too many models for only 10% market share. Chevy only has 16 models (14 if you don't count Cobalt coupe + sedan seperate and Aveo sedan and 5-door seperate), and they have the Avalanche, Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban, and Trailblazer, all vehicles Opel doesn't have anything similar to. So, Opel is going to have 20 vehicles in the same areas of the market that Chevy has 9 (or 11, depending on how you look at it)? Seems excessive.

I wonder how many of these models will make it over here as Saturns? Saturn need not grow bigger than 8 or 9 models. You can have the Corsa (Fit competitor), Astra (Civic), Aura (Accord), Vue (CR-V), Sky (S2000), Outlook (Pilot), and the only Hondas you don't have a competitor for are the Ridgeline and Element, and that's only 6 models. Saturn doesn't need anything bigger than the Aura, and I don't see how GM could justify them getting such a vehicle when Buick is having a hard time getting one, so there's no need for any more cars, other than an electric vehicle as the article talks about. So, add an electric and you're at 7 models, perhaps a mini-SUV (smaller than Vue) and you'd be at 8. There's absolutely no other vehicle that Saturn could need, and this is the same market that Opel is going after. I don't see how Opel needs 20 models. Only thing I can think of is Opel is developing vehicles for other brands (Chevy) in other markets.

[ZL-1]

Some of those models will be probably be sold in Latin America as Chevrolets, some as Saturns in NA, so you cannot look just at the European market's size to gauge the reach of this investment.

[Guest aatbloke]

How big is the European market? To have 20 new models and only 10% market share seems like too many models for only 10% market share. Chevy only has 16 models (14 if you don't count Cobalt coupe + sedan seperate and Aveo sedan and 5-door seperate), and they have the Avalanche, Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban, and Trailblazer, all vehicles Opel doesn't have anything similar to. So, Opel is going to have 20 vehicles in the same areas of the market that Chevy has 9 (or 11, depending on how you look at it)? Seems excessive.

The European market is very different from that in North America. Europeans like plenty of variety when it comes to models, bodystyles, trim and engine configurations. The Focus alone comes in 171 bodyshell/engine/trim variants.

[Croc]

The European market is very different from that in North America. Europeans like plenty of variety when it comes to models, bodystyles, trim and engine configurations.

The American market is no different; we just don't get all those configuration options offered to us.

[Oracle of Delphi]

How big is the European market? To have 20 new models and only 10% market share seems like too many models for only 10% market share. Chevy only has 16 models (14 if you don't count Cobalt coupe + sedan seperate and Aveo sedan and 5-door seperate), and they have the Avalanche, Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban, and Trailblazer, all vehicles Opel doesn't have anything similar to. So, Opel is going to have 20 vehicles in the same areas of the market that Chevy has 9 (or 11, depending on how you look at it)? Seems excessive.

I wonder how many of these models will make it over here as Saturns? Saturn need not grow bigger than 8 or 9 models. You can have the Corsa (Fit competitor), Astra (Civic), Aura (Accord), Vue (CR-V), Sky (S2000), Outlook (Pilot), and the only Hondas you don't have a competitor for are the Ridgeline and Element, and that's only 6 models. Saturn doesn't need anything bigger than the Aura, and I don't see how GM could justify them getting such a vehicle when Buick is having a hard time getting one, so there's no need for any more cars, other than an electric vehicle as the article talks about. So, add an electric and you're at 7 models, perhaps a mini-SUV (smaller than Vue) and you'd be at 8. There's absolutely no other vehicle that Saturn could need, and this is the same market that Opel is going after. I don't see how Opel needs 20 models. Only thing I can think of is Opel is developing vehicles for other brands (Chevy) in other markets.

Because GME is the tail that wags the GM dog!

[Robert Hall]

The American market is no different; we just don't get all those configuration options offered to us.

In the US, though, we usually only get one bodystyle per model from the US automakers....

[ocnblu]

Ugh, what a waste. All this, for another sanitized, passionless generation of Asstras? Seems a high tab for an automotive sleeping pill.

[Robert Hall]

Ugh, what a waste. All this, for another sanitized, passionless generation of Asstras? Seems a high tab for an automotive sleeping pill.

The world wants fuel efficient small FWD cars...that's reality..it's only the US that's obsessed with 6000lb trucks and SUVs..

[Blake Noble]

The world wants fuel efficient small FWD cars...that's reality..it's only the US that's obsessed with 6000lb trucks and SUVs..

That is a quite stereotypical comment. No offense.

There are people in the United States who want to buy more efficient cars.

But who says all efficient cars must be small and front-wheel drive?

[Robert Hall]

That is a quite stereotypical comment. No offense.

True, but like all stereotypes, it's based in fact....I'm amazed at the number of monster trucks and SUVs I see in my daily commute...driven by one person.

There are people in the United States who want to buy more efficient cars.

True, but they are in the minority..

But who says all efficient cars must be small and front-wheel drive?

The most efficient are small and FWD. Myself, I'd like to see midsize and larger RWD cars offered with efficient diesels, but I don't see that happening anytime soon here..

[Northstar]

Because GME is the tail that wags the GM dog!

And this explains why they need 20 models cars and crossovers that are midsize or smaller how?

Unless 20 models means if the Astra has a 3-door, 5-door, sedan, Astravan, and convertible, that that is 5 models right there. Corsa has 3-door, 5-door, and Corsavan, 3 models to make 8. If this is how models is counted than 20 does not seem like so many... but if that counts as 2 models, then 20 is way too many and there'd be lots of cannibalization. If you look at it that way Opel already has 17 models...

[Robert Hall]

And this explains why they need 20 models cars and crossovers that are midsize or smaller how?

Unless 20 models means if the Astra has a 3-door, 5-door, sedan, Astravan, and convertible, that that is 5 models right there. Corsa has 3-door, 5-door, and Corsavan, 3 models to make 8. If this is how models is counted than 20 does not seem like so many... but if that counts as 2 models, then 20 is way too many and there'd be lots of cannibalization. If you look at it that way Opel already has 17 models...

Could be..maybe they are (incorrectly) using 'model' to mean bodystyles and trim levels. To me, a 'model' is a named product line (Astra, Vectra, Corsa) within a brand (Opel)..

[ocnblu]

Moltar, I would drive a small, efficient car... but I need one that will hold my interest... like a RWD, 4 seater, turbo Ecotec, manual transmission Pontiac coupe.

[regfootball]

Because GME is the tail that wags the GM dog!

well, 2/3+ of GM's worldwide sales are outside NA, so maybe this alright. One thing is for sure, with Saturn the way it is now, Americans can benefit. More and more the INSIGNIA is appealing to me.....especially if it has a v6/stick combo.

[Robert Hall]

Moltar, I would drive a small, efficient car... but I need one that will hold my interest... like a RWD, 4 seater, turbo Ecotec, manual transmission Pontiac coupe.

I'd love to see something like that...I'm not holding my breath that it will happen, though.

[Blake Noble]

True, but like all stereotypes, it's based in fact....I'm amazed at the number of monster trucks and SUVs I see in my daily commute...driven by one person.

Strange. In my area, I am noticing a higher number of cars, even a good percentage of them compact even, than I have noticed before. Sure, I still see plenty of full-sized trucks and SUVs around here, too. I am in Kentucky after all, and people like their V8 Silverados, F-150s, and Rams. But I think more and more buyers are starting to consider their choices with wisdom rather than impulse.

True, but they are in the minority.

I suppose I like being in a minority then. :AH-HA_wink:

The most efficient are small and FWD. Myself, I'd like to see midsize and larger RWD cars offered with efficient diesels, but I don't see that happening anytime soon here..

Yes, smaller cars are the most efficient, and they are also usually their most efficient when equipped with a diesel engine. As for being front-wheel drive, that is subjective. There are examples of front-drive subcompact and compact cars being actually less frugal concerning mpg than their rear-drive counterparts (in the era of the Seventies and Eighties).

Front-drive compact and subcompact cars do have or can present advantages in packaging, however, over one engineered to be rear-drive, especially if the car is a subcompact.

[Guest aatbloke]

The American market is no different; we just don't get all those configuration options offered to us.

The American market and European market are enormously different. For example, the US company car market is miniscule; the general public often regard small cars as cheap transportation; diesel emissions regulations and the scant availability of low sulphur diesel mean that derv sales are practically non-existent there; the thirst for SUVs remains far higher there than it does in Europe, which prefers wagons for load-hauling. Legislatively it is isolated from the rest of the world automotively; that means the raft of engine options founds in cars from the Yaris to A4 to Golf to Astra are pretty much whittled down to one or two choices in North America.

[Blake Noble]

The American market and European market are enormously different. For example, the US company car market is miniscule; the general public often regard small cars as cheap transportation; diesel emissions regulations and the scant availability of low sulphur diesel mean that derv sales are practically non-existent there; the thirst for SUVs remains far higher there than it does in Europe, which prefers wagons for load-hauling. Legislatively it is isolated from the rest of the world automotively; that means the raft of engine options founds in cars from the Yaris to A4 to Golf to Astra are pretty much whittled down to one or two choices in North America.

It is ironic, really.

We here in America take pride in freedom of choice. But when it comes time to buy a car, we do not have all of the choices Europe does concerning the engine of a car.

Even Canada has a handful more choices than we do.

I would like to see diesels here in 75 percent of the cars sold here. I think something the size of a Pontiac G8 with a diesel and a manual transmission has the potential to be a beast of a sleeper, with something as simple as an ECU retuning. But our government is blissfully ignorant and over-restrictive of them, thinking they are all smog-producing, clacking and chattering, old-tech engines that are the biggest contributors to the environmental decline. I find it surprising that they are somehow still available in full-sized pickups here.

[PurdueGuy]

I guess I must be odd, liking both compact cars and full size trucks/suvs... each has their place. So many people talk like everyone must "give up" one for the other...

[regfootball]

It is ironic, really.

We here in America take pride in freedom of choice. But when it comes time to buy a car, we do not have all of the choices Europe does concerning the engine of a car.

Even Canada has a handful more choices than we do.

I would like to see diesels here in 75 percent of the cars sold here. I think something the size of a Pontiac G8 with a diesel and a manual transmission has the potential to be a beast of a sleeper, with something as simple as an ECU retuning. But our government is blissfully ignorant and over-restrictive of them, thinking they are all smog-producing, clacking and chattering, old-tech engines that are the biggest contributors to the environmental decline. I find it surprising that they are somehow still available in full-sized pickups here.

simple reason. california and the EPA/feds make it an overwhelming burden to provide multiple powertrain choices.

[Oracle of Delphi]

simple reason. california and the EPA/feds make it an overwhelming burden to provide multiple powertrain choices.

Is there an EP II or Astra in your future reg? If so, we welcome you to the GME family! :AH-HA_wink:

[regfootball]

Is there an EP II or Astra in your future reg? If so, we welcome you to the GME family! :AH-HA_wink:

i am a ford guy first mostly, and then i may have to go holden g8 before a GME car, unless you can promise me my INSIGNIA they way i want it.

i was impressed with the astra here now, spacious, nice interior.....but i can't sign on to only 138hp. Nope. the current epsilon platform cars are too small for my midwest frame.

After putting miles on the FIL's 08 GP last weekend, maybe i would even go for a used GXP GP while i can still get one at a deal.

An all new 9-5 would be the cats meow, but i sense we'll never see that car.

Edited May 3, 2008 by regfootball

[thegriffon]

It's not just Opel and Saturn that benefit from the investment in new models, but everything else using those platforms—Chevrolet, Daewoo, Buick, Saab, and probably Pontiac if they keep fwd models.

[Camino LS6]

aatbloke: You are wrong about low-sulfur diesel in the US being in scant supply. In fact, all diesel sold in the US is low-sulfur per the federal mandate that went into effect in 2007.

[Robert Hall]

It's not just Opel and Saturn that benefit from the investment in new models, but everything else using those platforms—Chevrolet, Daewoo, Buick, Saab, and probably Pontiac if they keep fwd models.

Yes....the benefits affect GM worldwide.

[Guest aatbloke]

aatbloke: You are wrong about low-sulfur diesel in the US being in scant supply. In fact, all diesel sold in the US is low-sulfur per the federal mandate that went into effect in 2007.

If you hadn't deduced it, my context was in comparing the American and European markets. Low-sulphur derv is relatively new to the States, and compared with Europe, you simply don't find it at every filling station like you do here - in fact, far from it. Camino, you really do have to realise that unlike many of your favoured can't-see-the-wood-for-the-trees GM fanatics, I don't post conjecture.

Edited May 3, 2008 by aatbloke

[wildcat]

It's not just Opel and Saturn that benefit from the investment in new models, but everything else using those platforms—Chevrolet, Daewoo, Buick, Saab, and probably Pontiac if they keep fwd models.

That's good news for all of us! Thank you, the griffon, for that perspective.

[Guest aatbloke]

i was impressed with the astra here now, spacious, nice interior.....but i can't sign on to only 138hp. Nope. the current epsilon platform cars are too small for my midwest frame.

138bhp for a C-segment 1.8 litre hatchback is more than ample, unless you're either going to spend 24 hours at Le Mans or you eat three squares a day at Burger King.

[Camino LS6]

Camino: my context was in comparing the American and European markets. Low-sulphur derv is relatively new to the States, ad compared with Europe, you simply don't find it at every filling station like you do here. Camino, you really do have to realise that unlike many of your favoured teenage posters on here, I don't post conjecture.

" Favoured teenage posters" ? A rediculous remark, my friend.

The fact is that Diesel is not in short supply in the US, and never has been. Our demand for it is simply focused on its use for trucks rather than in cars. There is no debate that it isn't used in cars in any way that approaches a European level, obviously. But, what you said was that low-sulfur diesel was in "short supply" in the US and that simply isn't true. So, what you posted wasn't conjecture, it was simply incorrect.

I corrected your error with the facts of the matter - opinions are not a factor here.

[Guest aatbloke]

" Favoured teenage posters" ? A rediculous remark, my friend.

The fact is that Diesel is not in short supply in the US, and never has been. Our demand for it is simply focused on its use for trucks rather than in cars. There is no debate that it isn't used in cars in any way that approaches a European level, obviously. But, what you said was that low-sulfur diesel was in "short supply" in the US and that simply isn't true. So, what you posted wasn't conjecture, it was simply incorrect.

I corrected your error with the facts of the matter - opinions are not a factor here.

Since you didn't read a word I said, I'll say it again. I said "scant availability", not "short supply" - and in the CONTEXT (American vs European markets) that's the truth: I could go to any filling station here and find diesel - not so in the States. There's no doubting in my mind that I could find a major filling station in the US (particularly at a truck stop) and get all the supply of diesel I like - but that's different from easy availability, because you can't find it available at every filling station.

All you need to do is talk to someone who has spent a significant amount of time in western Europe and the United States, and they'll tell you the same thing. I don't give a toss if you take my word for it or not; it's the truth and that's the end of it.

It's obvious to me as to your favoured posters - if you want to discuss ridiculous, have a pop at your Canadian pal who thinks the Aveo is an older design than the Fit.

Edited May 3, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

Semantics - nothing more.

The implication of your remark was that the US was still using the old "dirty" diesel.

If you didn't know of the switch, just say so. It's not a big deal, really.

"Scant availability" is no more correct than "short supply" when describing diesel in the states.

"Appropriate availability" would be accurate. Precious few diesel passenger cars are sold here - the market has always resisted them.

I buy diesel for my Silverado about 2 miles from my home.

[Guest aatbloke]

Semantics - nothing more.

The implication of your remark was that the US was still using the old "dirty" diesel.

If you didn't know of the switch, just say so. It's not a big deal, really.

"Scant availability" is no more correct than "short supply" when describing diesel in the states.

"Appropriate availibilty" would be accurate. Precious few diesel passenger cars are sold here - the market has always resisted them.

I buy diesel for my Silverado about 2 miles from my home.

LOL, so now we're getting to the truth - it's what you inferred. Sorry mate, I'm fully aware that the US recently began using low-sulphur derv, and indeed was living there at the time the prestigious day arrived.

I'll stand by my "scant availability" thank you very much. I lived just south of Cleveland, and of all the filling stations in the area, I'd say (generously at that) only a third or so even carried diesel, and they were the larger stations. I worked with people who even said they wouldn't even know where to find diesel. In any case, once I arrived at one of those stations, I'm certain the supply would be as much as my leviathan SUV was willing to muster.

Now, the whole crux of my post was comparing the US and European markets, and (as any European who has spent time in the States will tell you) there is scant availability of diesel in the States compared with Europe.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd probably feel the same way regarding McDonalds here. In my city we have just seven of their restaurants catering to a population of 325,000 people.

Edited May 3, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

LOL, so now we're getting to the truth - it's what you inferred. Sorry mate, I'm fully aware that the US recently began using low-sulphur derv, and indeed was living there at the time the prestigious day arrived.

I'll stand by my "scant availability" thank you very much. I lived just south of Cleveland, and of all the filling stations in the area, I'd say (generously at that) only a third or so even carried diesel, and they were the larger stations. I worked with people who even said they wouldn't even know where to find diesel. In any case, once I arrived at one of those stations, I'm certain the supply would be as much as my leviathan SUV was willing to muster.

Now, the whole crux of my post was comparing the US and European markets, and (as any European who has spent time in the States will tell you) there is scant availability of diesel in the States compared with Europe.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd probably feel the same way regarding McDonalds here. In my city we have seven of their restaurants catering to a population of 325,000 people.

Your characterization is absurd. Diesel is available within a short drive in any populated area in the US. If you own a diesel, you will have to invest a good 30 seconds to perform an internet search to know which local station carries it.

As for McDonalds, I would never darken the doorway of one of their stores.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Your characterization is absurd. Diesel is available within a short drive in any populated area in the US. If you own a diesel, you will have to invest a good 30 seconds to perform an internet search to know which local station carries it.

As for McDonalds, I would never darken the doorway of one of their stores.

Please Camino, just say the word, I do have an EU passport (Bundesrepublik Deutschland), It would be a piece of cake to enter the UK! :rotflmao:

[Guest aatbloke]

Your characterization is absurd. Diesel is available within a short drive in any populated area in the US. If you own a diesel, you will have to invest a good 30 seconds to perform an internet search to know which local station carries it.

As for McDonalds, I would never darken the doorway of one of their stores.

Good grief stop being so insecure. I don't eat at McDonalds either, although their coffee admittedly is lovely. Diesel is nothing like as easy to find as it is in Europe, especially if you live in a rural area, just as you can't find a Big Mac anything like as easily as you can in America. I'll say for the third time, my comments were in the context of comparing the US and European markets, so if you want to make a valid input as to how you found diesel availability in Europe, feel free to speak up.

As I said, I've spoken with many Europeans while living in the States (I had a terrific time there, by the way) and the conversation came up a number of times and I agreed with their comments every time. In fact, having lived there for seven years I saw it easily for myself. Every filling station here carries diesel; not so in the US and far from it. That's the point I'm merely making; nobody's trouncing on or criticising your country Camino.

Still, if you've only experienced life on your side of the pond, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Edited May 3, 2008 by aatbloke

[Guest aatbloke]

Please Camino, just say the word, I do have an EU passport (Bundesrepublik Deutschland), It would be a piece of cake to enter the UK! :rotflmao:

By all means, when you get here, contact me. I'd welcome the opportunity for you and I to discuss some company law issues.

[Oracle of Delphi]

By all means, when you get here, contact me. I'd welcome the opportunity for you and I to discuss some company law issues.

Psssst, Hey buddy, Saturn and Vauxhall only exist on paper, in reality they are nothing more than shell companies that GM moves product through! :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest aatbloke]

Psssst, Hey buddy, Saturn and Vauxhall only exist on paper, in reality they are nothing more than shell companies that GM moves product through! :AH-HA_wink:

Meanwhile, back on Earth ...

Edited May 4, 2008 by aatbloke

[Camino LS6]

Good grief stop being so insecure. I don't eat at McDonalds either, although their coffee admittedly is lovely. Diesel is nothing like as easy to find as it is in Europe, especially if you live in a rural area, just as you can't find a Big Mac anything like as easily as you can in America. I'll say for the third time, my comments were in the context of comparing the US and European markets, so if you want to make a valid input as to how you found diesel availability in Europe, feel free to speak up.

As I said, I've spoken with many Europeans while living in the States (I had a terrific time there, by the way) and the conversation came up a number of times and I agreed with their comments every time. In fact, having lived there for seven years I saw it easily for myself. Every filling station here carries diesel; not so in the US and far from it. That's the point I'm merely making; nobody's trouncing on or criticising your country Camino.

Still, if you've only experienced life on your side of the pond, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

What a load of assumption!

No insecurity.

No criticism of my country enters into it ( I was simply born here afterall).

I'm not being defensive man! You simply don't get it - we have no need for diesel at every filling station here. There is no market to support such capital investment. One or two in any vicinity is more than enough to meet demand. And in rural areas, it isn't lacking as you seem to think, it is just distributed differently. Farmers have it delivered to the farm.

Diesel is never any farther from you than the nearest interstate highway (worst case scenario). This country's economic life depends upon truck transport, so diesel is the lifeblood that keeps it moving. Don't think of it in terms of the passenger car and you will begin to understand.

You should have discussed the topic with Americans while you were here to gain a more complete understanding of the use of diesel here. Nearly all trucks above the size of a Full-size "one-ton" in this country are diesel powered. They are literally everywhere in great numbers, and thus , so is diesel.

The way Diesel is used, and thus distributed, is the only difference in availablity. In fact, I would venture a guess that the US consumes a like amount of diesel fuel in total to that of the EU.

Passenger cars are the visible aspect of this for you. That is understandable, but it misses the reality when used as a barometer of diesel in the US.

[Cory Wolfe]

Little ol' rural Brooville with a population of less than 5000 has more than one station that carries Diesel. In fact, atleast half of them do.

[ocnblu]

I guess it's that dry, no, parched British sense of humour at play here with aatbloke. If my Sheridan were here, he'd be appalled.

And yes, I realised before my first comment in this thread that Opel alone will not be trying to sell all those new models. GME is a development centre for certain platforms, just as Asia-Pacific and NA and Brasil are, I reckon. I was merely having an attempt at nose tweaking, as it were.

Edited May 3, 2008 by ocnblu

[Robert Hall]

I guess it's that dry, no, parched British sense of humour at play here with aatbloke. If my Sheridan were here, he'd be appalled.

And yes, I realised before my first comment in this thread that Opel alone will not be trying to sell all those new models. GME is a development centre for certain platforms, just as Asia-Pacific and NA and Brasil are, I reckon. I was merely having an attempt at nose tweaking, as it were.

humor (and esp. humour) is difficult to convey in a text only context....

[Croc]

The American market and European market are enormously different. For example, the US company car market is miniscule; the general public often regard small cars as cheap transportation; diesel emissions regulations and the scant availability of low sulphur diesel mean that derv sales are practically non-existent there; the thirst for SUVs remains far higher there than it does in Europe, which prefers wagons for load-hauling. Legislatively it is isolated from the rest of the world automotively; that means the raft of engine options founds in cars from the Yaris to A4 to Golf to Astra are pretty much whittled down to one or two choices in North America.

I'm well aware how different the two markets are, but with regards to the quoted portion of your post, that Europeans like choice, the two markets are not different.

[Croc]

No, I won't chalk it up to humor (or humour). This isn't the first time he's retreated to making snide comments about McDonald's and Burger King when he's been corrected on something. He's got some issues with always being right.

Back to the topic at hand...

I think Northie is right when he speculated that 20 models = 20 bodystyles. That makes the most sense to me.

[Guest aatbloke]

No, I won't chalk it up to humor (or humour). This isn't the first time he's retreated to making snide comments about McDonald's and Burger King when he's been corrected on something. He's got some issues with always being right.

Back to the topic at hand...

I think Northie is right when he speculated that 20 models = 20 bodystyles. That makes the most sense to me.

What's wrong with quoting McDonalds? Nothing snide I assure you - I'm not a teenager. In the States, McDonalds are ten-a-penny. Not so here. I was making an analogy with the availability of diesel at filling stations. It isn't a case of "always being right", but I won't post conjecture. In the real world, I could talk to umpteen car enthusiasts and my remarks would be pretty much stating the obvious; however not so on here. It's more to do with the fact that the kids on here are intimidated than anything to do with me.