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FUTURE PRODUCTS -- GENERAL MOTORS


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Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

August 25, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

The dreams of making Pontiac into an exclusively rear-wheel-drive brand have been put on hold, possibly permanently.

Small front-drive cars will make up a significant portion of Pontiac's future product line. And like most everything in General Motors' stable, Pontiac's future lineup is affected by new corporate average fuel economy requirements and GM's tight cash supply.

The bottom line: It will be difficult to create a unique identity for Pontiac, separating it from Chevrolet.

G3: An entry-level car based on the Chevrolet Aveo is likely to be imported for the 2009 model year. The G3 would be developed on GM's global Gamma architecture.

Sedan: A sedan sized between the Aveo and Pontiac G5 is under consideration for Pontiac or Buick for the 2012 model year. Because Pontiac and Buick are sold under one roof at most dealerships, only one brand will get the car, which likely would be imported.

Sedan: In light of high gasoline prices, a Pontiac based on the 2010 Chevy Cruze may arrive as early as the 2011 model year. The car would be developed on GM's new fwd Delta global vehicle architecture. It likely will replace the G5.

G6: GM management has flipped-flopped product strategy on this model several times.

Initially, the automaker planned to restyle and re-engineer the G6 around the 2011 model year. The car was scheduled to be developed on GM's next-generation Epsilon vehicle architecture.

Then, in an effort to distinguish Pontiac from Chevrolet, GM decided to make Pontiac a rwd brand. The redesigned, rwd G6 was slated to debut around the 2012 model year. GM's new rwd Alpha architecture was expected to be used.

G8: The G8, assembled in Australia, is the first car sold in the United States that was developed on GM's global rwd vehicle architecture, known as Zeta. The car went on sale earlier this year as a 2008 model.

Pontiac will expand the G8 line with a 2010 G8 sport truck, the G8 ST. The truck, a niche product also out of Holden, is reminiscent of the Chevrolet El Camino, which featured a small pickup bed.

Solstice: The 2009 product line is doubled with the addition of a fastback coupe.

The Solstice line will get higher-horsepower engines, but not a V-6. The car is a candidate for GM's new 1.4-liter turbo four-cylinder engine.

What happens next will be based on Solstice sales and whether GM can afford a next generation.

Vibe: Pontiac launched a restyled, re-engineered Vibe for the 2009 model year. The hatchback likely won't be due for a freshening until the 2011 model year.

Torrent: The Torrent crossover ends production in 2009. That leaves Pontiac a car-only line, which is what GM wants it to be as part of the Buick-Pontiac-GMC sales channel.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20080825/ANA03/808250312

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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No surprises here. This is what a lot of us expected, with our new lowered expectations. All I ask is, give Pontiac its own sheetmetal, wheels and interiors until things get better.
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No surprises here. This is what a lot of us expected, with our new lowered expectations. All I ask is, give Pontiac its own sheetmetal, wheels and good interiors until things get better.

Fixed. Does anyone know if the Pontiacs are getting upgraded center stacks a la Buick?

Edited by Lamar
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This is stupid. If GM can only give Pontiac minimal investment, give them the Solstice and an Alpha-based sedan. Perhaps continue to import the G8 sense it's basically free in terms of R&D anyways. There's no reason the Solstice and a compact sedan can't achieve good MPGs... if the G8 has to die because of MPGs, then so be at, but at least give Pontiac something that's desirable for a different reason than a Chevy FWD generic.

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It's pretty apparent that GM has made up its mind to downsize the amount of brands sold.

Futures aren't looking well for at least couple of them... if not most.

Well, I'm not so sure GM is really going to kill any brand names, but Pontiac is essentially dead with this lineup, as it is just rebadged Chevys. The name may not die, but anything resembling a unique brand with any appealing products that can't be found as almost identical vehicles at Chevy is dead.

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As much as I'd like a GMC Truck next November (and I know that brand is not safe either), I'm thinking I should buy a brand new Pontiac G8 while I can. It seems as if GM will remove the only true Pontiacs (G8 & Solstice) in the very near future and bring the '80s back by offering mildly rebadged Chevies as Pontiacs :rolleyes:

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You bring up a good point. Those of us (me included) who wished for an all-RWD Pontiac lineup are forgetting that Pontiac has been a shadow of Chevrolet off and on throughout its existence. This latest plan is not something entirely different from what has come before, over and over again. When and if times get better and GM is rolling in dough again, I am sure if there is a car guy left in management at the Corporation, there'll be some hot Pontiacs coming down the pike. Right now, with the way things are at GM, I am just glad they're keeping the brand going.
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As much as I'd like a GMC Truck next November (and I know that brand is not safe either), I'm thinking I should buy a brand new Pontiac G8 while I can. It seems as if GM will remove the only true Pontiacs (G8 & Solstice) in the very near future and bring the '80s back by offering mildly rebadged Chevies as Pontiacs :rolleyes:

Only the Solstice is a true Pontiac, the other is a pretender too.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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Only the Solstice is a true Pontiac, the other is a pretender too.

Well, in North America what else is rebadged using the Holden? Nada! So to North America it is a unique Pontiac, and it's a car that one could only buy if they lived in Austrailia, the Middle East, and Europe. Also, I agree with gm4life that it is a true Pontiac in spirit (however, in my opinion, it is what a Pontiac should be - a performance sedan for the average consumer to obtain).

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My Bonneville was called the "Great American Touring Sedan" and it has lived up to that indeed. I know it isn't super fast but it feels and looks faster than it is. Those 3.8's have a nice powerband and the 17inch chrome wheels and dual exhaust it makes you think your faster and cooler than you are. And that is okay with me. I do love that car. Hopefully next new car is a G8 or a Camaro... Here's to hoping... Although I don't need a truck a 6.0L 1/2 ton Silverado appeals to me. I just like Chevy trucks.

Edited by gm4life
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It's pretty apparent that GM has made up its mind to downsize the amount of brands sold.

Futures aren't looking well for at least couple of them... if not most.

I don't think so.

I think GM itself is in too much trouble right now for them to worry about brands. They need "share product" out and they need it like yesterday. So that's what they're producing.

Well, I'm not so sure GM is really going to kill any brand names, but Pontiac is essentially dead with this lineup, as it is just rebadged Chevys. The name may not die, but anything resembling a unique brand with any appealing products that can't be found as almost identical vehicles at Chevy is dead.

Unless GM gives Pontiac uniqueness with the current crop of products. It doesn't have to be RWD V8 for it to be 'distinctly Pontiac' Hell, with the lose 're-badge' terms thrown around these days, the CTS may as well be a rebadged G8.

This dealer channel needs volume too and there is no reason that 2 volume divisions couldn't exist at GM, especially if they're aimed at different segments of the market. Actually, that's all the better since GM could really (With a little luck and good marketing) reverse the share slide.

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You bring up a good point. Those of us (me included) who wished for an all-RWD Pontiac lineup are forgetting that Pontiac has been a shadow of Chevrolet off and on throughout its existence. This latest plan is not something entirely different from what has come before, over and over again. When and if times get better and GM is rolling in dough again, I am sure if there is a car guy left in management at the Corporation, there'll be some hot Pontiacs coming down the pike. Right now, with the way things are at GM, I am just glad they're keeping the brand going.

+1

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To go off of Ocn & FOG's comments... Since GM isn't too concerned about "platform sharing" and "rebadging" then why not go all the way? If GM is willing to keep the G-Platform vehicles around, then why not keep SIGMA around and share it with other brands? Reskin the STS and give it to Chevrolet as an Impala/Caprice? Reskin the CTS coupe into a Buick Riviera? Similar maneuvers have been done before...

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I agree as Pontiac has been nothing but a hand me down from Chevy even farther back than some want to admit.

The great GTO's were all Chevelle A body based. The Firebird whould not be if there was no Camaro. The Large Pontiac cars were all based on the GM full size platforms for years. They got different trim and for a while different engines but they still were based on the other lines sold by GM in the states.

The crazy truth is the only 100% Pontiac that has been made in decades was the Fiero 2M4. The P car was Pontiac only and while it shares some parts most were redesigned to fit the Fiero and were not interchangable with any other GM cars . Also the 4 cylinder Iron Duke was a Pontiac engine. Then lets not forget this was one of the last Pontiacs built in Pontiac MI.

I find the G8 be more Pontiac than many of their past models as this car was not shared till the Camaro in the states and for once Pontiac got the platform first VS the past where Chevy would get it first.

I would be fine with only 4-5 true perfromance base cars RWD and FWD mix. I have learned GM can make a FWD performance car after buying my HHR SS. If a G5 ran like that I could respect it as a Pontiac.

As for calling the Bonneville the "Great American Touring Sedan" That crap has to stop. If they want respect Pontiac can be just a Great America Car it has to be a great Car period.

Right now Chevy is selling some damn good cars and if you want people to buy Pontiacs you need to give them a reason. The HHR SS and Malibu I just bought were both better than the offerings from Pontiac. They also were cheaper. I am a die hard Pontiac fan and I am buying Chevys is that telling you something about Pontiac and what they are offering. If they can't sell me a Pontiac fan a car then who the hell are they going to sell them too?

If Pontiac had gotten the Astra restyled as a Pontiac G5 with a 260 Turbo I might have looked. IF Pontiac has a G6 that was advancing with improvment vs not much better than a few years ago I might have looked.

If Pontiac had offered a 260 HP Turbo in a small RWD sedan I would be all over it.

The hell with the old names as the new cars have to be different. It is the products that make the differance and not the name. You could have called the G6 a Grand and a G5 a Sunbird and I still would not have bought one.

Right now the only two cars they have I was intersted in was the Solstice which I had to pass on as I need more than two seats. Also I looked at a G8 ST but again two seats. I may replace the wifes GTP with a G8 if they are still around when it is time.

One last note the Malibu I bought for my Mom made me wake up and realize how cruddy my GTP is. The 2LT I got for $20K is quieter, better interior, rides better, handels as well and is nealry as fast. has a 24 vlave V6 with a six speed tranny. The sad part is the V6 2LT is not even a performance car and is a better all around car than my Comp G.

At the Pontiac Nationals this year it was generally accepted by many if GM ever files for reorganization Pontiac will be gone. If the market does not improve that could very well happen. It is sad even the base is accepting of the fact Pontiac could be gone with little out rage.

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G6: GM management has flipped-flopped product strategy on this model several times.

Initially, the automaker planned to restyle and re-engineer the G6 around the 2011 model year. The car was scheduled to be developed on GM's next-generation Epsilon vehicle architecture.

Then, in an effort to distinguish Pontiac from Chevrolet, GM decided to make Pontiac a rwd brand. The redesigned, rwd G6 was slated to debut around the 2012 model year. GM's new rwd Alpha architecture was expected to be used.

So the where's the rest of the story? I know we're getting the awful 2010, but then what after? I really hope the Alpha one makes it.

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Pontiac is Holden all the way through.

You'll see when Holden shows their E-Flex model.........guess what? It's a performance model and it's what Pontiac will become.

Don't fret about Pontiac....it has a future in the electrification of the automobile and it's the "performance brand" of electric cars.

Monster torque!

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Pontiac is Holden all the way through.

Monster torque!

Actually, Holden only has a few models that are Pontiac-ish--the performance versions of the Commodore. The LWB Caprice and Statesman are Buickish (i.e Park Avenue in China), and the rest of their line is FWD generics---Chevywoo crap and Opels.

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hyperv6- >>"I agree as Pontiac has been nothing but a hand me down from Chevy even farther back than some want to admit.

The great GTO's were all Chevelle A body based. The Firebird whould not be if there was no Camaro. The Large Pontiac cars were all based on the GM full size platforms for years. They got different trim and for a while different engines but they still were based on the other lines sold by GM in the states."<<

You know I'm going to hit you on this one, right?

I'm willing to admit that Pontiac has been a "hand me down from Chevy" since... hm-mmm.... I'm gonna say 19....15. Which is really saying something since Pontiac wasn't introduced since 1926.

Let's get real.

GTOs were not 'Chevelle-based'; these cars were co-developed off of a quantity of corporate & Fisher Body parameters- never was a Malibu/Chevelle re-engineered into a Tempest/GTO. Fallacy. It's equally as correct to say a given Chevelle was GTO-based.

Big Pontiacs were not based on "GM full-size platforms" (nevermind that the term is an anachronism in the BOF years), again; they were co-developed simultaneously as were the other divisions' full-size cars, using the same sort of parameters, using proprietory engineering & powertrains.

The only factual thing I quoted from you was that the Firebird WAS engineered off of the Camaro, but this was entirely due to the fact that the Banshee was denied by the 14th floor and PMD was tossed the 'Camaro bone'. There may not have been a Firebird otherwise, but there almost was a Banshee- and that was all Pontiac yet again.

At SOME point, yes; inter-divisional sharing increased to the point a major percentage of interchangability was possible. It wasn't in the 1940s, '50s, or '60s. I would strongly tend to believe it did not happen for the big cars until the downsize of 1977. '77 was a major design/engineering contraction. A-Bodies started considerable component sharing in GM, but it did not spread to the big cars until almost 20 years later.

So when exactly do you feel Pontiacs became "handed-down Chevys" ? Why beat around the bush on this damnation- let's get it out there.

This sort of broad-brush over-simplification does no one any favors, nor does it represent the truth. It only serves one end, that those who have not researched the facts assume this: All Pontiacs thruout the Division's history have been Chevy rebadges.

Is that something you truely believe?

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hyperv6- >>"I agree as Pontiac has been nothing but a hand me down from Chevy even farther back than some want to admit.

The great GTO's were all Chevelle A body based. The Firebird whould not be if there was no Camaro. The Large Pontiac cars were all based on the GM full size platforms for years. They got different trim and for a while different engines but they still were based on the other lines sold by GM in the states."<<

You know I'm going to hit you on this one, right?

I'm willing to admit that Pontiac has been a "hand me down from Chevy" since... hm-mmm.... I'm gonna say 19....15. Which is really saying something since Pontiac wasn't introduced since 1926.

Let's get real.

GTOs were not 'Chevelle-based'; these cars were co-developed off of a quantity of corporate & Fisher Body parameters- never was a Malibu/Chevelle re-engineered into a Tempest/GTO. Fallacy. It's equally as correct to say a given Chevelle was GTO-based.

Big Pontiacs were not based on "GM full-size platforms" (nevermind that the term is an anachronism in the BOF years), again; they were co-developed simultaneously as were the other divisions' full-size cars, using the same sort of parameters, using proprietory engineering & powertrains.

The only factual thing I quoted from you was that the Firebird WAS engineered off of the Camaro, but this was entirely due to the fact that the Banshee was denied by the 14th floor and PMD was tossed the 'Camaro bone'. There may not have been a Firebird otherwise, but there almost was a Banshee- and that was all Pontiac yet again.

At SOME point, yes; inter-divisional sharing increased to the point a major percentage of interchangability was possible. It wasn't in the 1940s, '50s, or '60s. I would strongly tend to believe it did not happen for the big cars until the downsize of 1977. '77 was a major design/engineering contraction. A-Bodies started considerable component sharing in GM, but it did not spread to the big cars until almost 20 years later.

So when exactly do you feel Pontiacs became "handed-down Chevys" ? Why beat around the bush on this damnation- let's get it out there.

This sort of broad-brush over-simplification does no one any favors, nor does it represent the truth. It only serves one end, that those who have not researched the facts assume this: All Pontiacs thruout the Division's history have been Chevy rebadges.

Is that something you truely believe?

I agree that prior to 1977 there were more differances but the GTO was a A body. They may have called it a Fisher body then and today they call it a corperate platform. Times change but other the engines and rear ends they are no different for the most part than todays cars with some styling changes and and different suspension tuning.

I will agree they did do a better job than they did in Canada with the Beumont and Arcadia.

But everytime I have seen or replace things like 12 bolt rear ends that bolt straight in to replace the Pontiac part or pull out a Small Block Chevy that was a streaight bolt in to replace the 400 boltin with mounts and bell housing it remind me just how close these cars really were. On the good note the corperate window cranks and other mechanical bits do make them easier to restore.

I am not saying Pontiac did a bad job on their versions in the 60 but they were still a shared car to a greatr degree.

The 55-57 Nomad and Safari are good exaples of cake with different frosting. The different fenders and rngine did not hide the roof line and what it was based on.

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Here's the long and short of it for Pontiac. The future is not so bright at Pontiac.

2009 - G3 Debuts, Solstice coupe debuts, Vibe restyled/re-engineered

2010 - Possible G5 replacement, G8 ST debuts

2011 - Nothing

2012 - Possible small imported car

You missed one. The spied G6.

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Meh if it drives the same as a FWD Chevy, I'm not interested. So much for an American BMW. I guess its up to Caddy to build a 3300lb RWD sedan.

Well, they have to keep Avis supplied w/ cars...that's been Pontiac's growth market in recent years.. :)

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So the G6 will stay the same for another 2-3 years? If so that is just stupid. 2010 there should be a new one introduced.

The way GM treats Pontiac, I wouldn't be surprised if they keep producing the current version until they can align the next gen version with the Eps II based Malibu. Since the subcompact and compact Pontiacs will be twin-nostrilized Chevys, why not have the midsize product follow the same pattern? Pontiac could be so much more if GM would open their eyes. Instead, the brand will be diluted to within an inch of its existence with rebadged Chevys. Although I know it will never happen, this is why I would still like to see Pontiac aligned with Opel. Opel's products seem to be sportier, edgier, and more aspirational than their Chevy counterparts and could be used to restore a little luster and attitude back to the Pontiac brand image. The Insignia and next gen Corsa/Astra would make nice products that could effectively straddle the line between fuel efficiency and sportiness for Pontiac (maybe augmented with a coupe of RWD products to complete the lineup). Instead, GM prefers to foolishly waste Opel's North American potential on Saturn. Saturn is nothing more than a mainstream alternative to Chevy for people who want an affordable GM without the perceived stigma of the Chevrolet badge. It will never be perceived as anything but an affordable brand in the market (Despite GM's half-baked, mediocre attempts to move it upmarket). Why not give this brand significantly restyled Chevy products (altered front/rear and interior designs) and use Opel to restore Pontiac to its rightful place as the aspirational bridge between Chevy and Buick? Pontiac still somewhat has the brand image and a much large dealership base for this to be a successful venture for both Pontiac and GM.

PCS: I know this is not planned and will never happen. It's just a suggestion. I know it is and will continue to be an unrealized dream (just as much as my first preference of Pontiac receiving an all RWD lineup). It would just be nice to see GM give some respect and preference to Pontiac (a brand that has much more heritage with GM) for a change instead of trying to make Saturn (an unncecessary measure by GM to appeal to import shoppers instead of just simply investing money to make improved products) something it's not and was never intended to be. I do respect your insight and connections to the inner workings of GM and I appreciate you letting us all know what's up. At least I am not too surprised or shocked when another rebadged Chevy shows up in Pontiac's showroom.

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The way GM treats Pontiac, I wouldn't be surprised if they keep producing the current version until they can align the next gen version with the Eps II based Malibu. Since the subcompact and compact Pontiacs will be twin-nostrilized Chevys, why not have the midsize product follow the same pattern? Pontiac could be so much more if GM would open their eyes. Instead, the brand will be diluted to within an inch of its existence with rebadged Chevys. Although I know it will never happen, this is why I would still like to see Pontiac aligned with Opel. Opel's products seem to be sportier, edgier, and more aspirational than their Chevy counterparts and could be used to restore a little luster and attitude back to the Pontiac brand image. The Insignia and next gen Corsa/Astra would make nice products that could effectively straddle the line between fuel efficiency and sportiness for Pontiac (maybe augmented with a coupe of RWD products to complete the lineup). Instead, GM prefers to foolishly waste Opel's North American potential on Saturn. Saturn is nothing more than a mainstream alternative to Chevy for people who want an affordable GM without the perceived stigma of the Chevrolet badge. It will never be perceived as anything but an affordable brand in the market (Despite GM's half-baked, mediocre attempts to move it upmarket). Why not give this brand significantly restyled Chevy products (altered front/rear and interior designs) and use Opel to restore Pontiac to its rightful place as the aspirational bridge between Chevy and Buick? Pontiac still somewhat has the brand image and a much large dealership base for this to be a successful venture for both Pontiac and GM.

I agree 100% And here's the thing: Chevrolet doesn't have that big of a perception problem. And if the Volt is a hit, and it produces a few premium compacts, it'll be right there beside Saturn and there will be no use for Saturn anymore. (Remember what I said about Chevy and Saturn fighting for #1?)

The reason the Opels should go to Pontiac is because Pontiac has equity.... An established identity, good or bad. Saturn does not. Saturn is nothing more than a niche maker for the few people that won't buy a Chevrolet whereas Pontiac has an identity that is SEPERATE from Chevrolet in the mind of the consumer (Again; good or bad)

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RE: Kappa

GM didn't make its money back fast enough to justify the investment in a new RWD – read: thirstier – platform.

Thirstier?!?!? Was Kappa II to underpin something larger as well? Last I heard Kappa was in line for the new, smaller 4 cylinders.

Maybe Alpha can save them?

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RE: Kappa

Thirstier?!?!? Was Kappa II to underpin something larger as well? Last I heard Kappa was in line for the new, smaller 4 cylinders.

Maybe Alpha can save them?

That was my thought.

Kappa II may be dead but not the Solstice or Sky. If based on a Alpha it wouls share the cost with other lines while also helping spread the cost of Alpha over 5 more cars for 5 more different divisions.

It all would equal cost savings for the Alpha and Solstice/Sky.

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That was my thought.

Kappa II may be dead but not the Solstice or Sky. If based on a Alpha it wouls share the cost with other lines while also helping spread the cost of Alpha over 5 more cars for 5 more different divisions.

It all would equal cost savings for the Alpha and Solstice/Sky.

I have heard so many conflicting things about Alpha that I am more than a little confused about it. I have a few questions about it that can hopefully be answered from someone who has the inside scoop (like PCS).

1) What size classes can this platform cover? I've heard rumors that it can be utilized as a platform for everything from small roadsters to midsize cars.

2) Is the platform that flexible?

3)I know it is supposed to underpin a sub-CTS compact sedan for Cadillac. Will that compact Cadillac line be expanded to include a coupe or wagon? What other products will it be used for?

The only thing I can tell for sure is that Alpha is a RWD platform that slots under the Zeta and Sigma RWD platforms for GM. Other than that, everything else is a little cloudy.

Edited by cire
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I have heard so many conflicting things about Alpha that I am more than a little confused about it. I have a few questions about it that can hopefully be answered from someone who has the inside scoop (like PCS).

1) What size classes can this platform cover? I've heard rumors that it can be utilized as a platform for everything from small roadsters to midsize cars.

2) Is the platform that flexible?

3)I know it is supposed to underpin a sub-CTS compact sedan for Cadillac. Will that compact Cadillac line be expanded to include a coupe or wagon? What other products will it be used for?

The only thing I can tell for sure is that Alpha is a RWD platform that slots under the Zeta and Sigma RWD platforms for GM. Other than that, everything else is a little cloudy.

Cloudy and conflicting usally means they are making changes to the platform.

I think with all the new CAFE rules it has changed GM's outlook on the Alpha and may have expanded its future roll.

Lets face it everything has to be smaller and lighter and Alpha could underpin many new cars GM has set for Zeta< Kappa and other RWD projects they may still have.

RWD is not dead but it will be smaller and mostly 4 and 6 cylinder offerings.

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I have heard so many conflicting things about Alpha that I am more than a little confused about it. I have a few questions about it that can hopefully be answered from someone who has the inside scoop (like PCS).

1) What size classes can this platform cover? I've heard rumors that it can be utilized as a platform for everything from small roadsters to midsize cars.

2) Is the platform that flexible?

3)I know it is supposed to underpin a sub-CTS compact sedan for Cadillac. Will that compact Cadillac line be expanded to include a coupe or wagon? What other products will it be used for?

The only thing I can tell for sure is that Alpha is a RWD platform that slots under the Zeta and Sigma RWD platforms for GM. Other than that, everything else is a little cloudy.

It is very adaptable, it was designed to handle, 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines.

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You gotta be effin' kidding. 2013 and all we get is a lousy bumper "upgrade"?

Yeah just a bumper upgrade, I wouldn't even call that a refresh. IMHO, I think what you are witnessing is GM starving Pontiac of product, that would be the perfect legal way to force the brand out of existence, without officially closing it down.

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Borger it's funny that you have posted all these articles out of Automotive News... a publication that anyone in the automotive business could have posted, with an account. How do we know Automotive News is getting their info from people who know the truth about GM's future? How much of this is conjecture, just as any number of other press outlets have passed off as their own conjecture as fact?
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Borger it's funny that you have posted all these articles out of Automotive News... a publication that anyone in the automotive business could have posted, with an account. How do we know Automotive News is getting their info from people who know the truth about GM's future? How much of this is conjecture, just as any number of other press outlets have passed off as their own conjecture as fact?

Automotive News ran a series of articles with their own reporter after he had spoken to a number of high level GM officials. As far as I know, (and yes I have a subscription there), he spoke to many GM sources. I was not one of them, if that's what you are trying to infer.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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You know, at this rate I am surprised that Pontiac won't follow in its Matrix footsteps and reskin a Camry for the new G6.

*sarcasm off*

[sarcasm] G5 gets replaced by a rebadged Corolla, G6 with a Camry, G8 with an Avalon. Oh, while we're at it, Highlander as the Torrent, Sienna as a Montana, and the Prius as a Solstice. See, it all fits! We've got everything covered.[/sarcasm]

And the next minute before you know it, I'm signing the purchase agreement inside a Mazda dealer.

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hyperv6' ->>"I agree that prior to 1977 there were more differances but the GTO was a A body. They may have called it a Fisher body then and today they call it a corperate platform. Times change but other the engines and rear ends they are no different for the most part than todays cars with some styling changes and and different suspension tuning."<<

My issue is completely with your choice of wording and the misleading impression it gives.

Yes, of course the GTO was an A-Body, so was the 442, Gran Sport & SS. And to openly claim Pontiac has long been a "handed-down Chevy" and site this as an example of that is ludicrious and factually incorrect. Thusly, I must call that out.

>>"But everytime I... pull out a Small Block Chevy that was a streaight bolt in to replace the 400 boltin with mounts and bell housing it remind me just how close these cars really were."<<

Lemmee get this straight: the cars were really close because a SBC will bolt into a Pontiac engine bay except for all the points that actually bolt it in (motor mounts & bellhousing) ?? You know you can 'bolt in' a Packard V-8 just as easily.... :rolleyes:

{ OR were you trying to say a Chevy engine will bolt up to a Pontiac-pattern trans & Pontiac mounts ?? }

>>"I am not saying Pontiac did a bad job on their versions in the 60 but they were still a shared car to a greatr degree."<<

To a "greater degree" than what ??? More than 50% = greater degree ?? You need to be straight on this issue for posterity and credibility, man, and it sure doesn't sound like you're very familiar with the cars of example here.

>>"The 55-57 Nomad and Safari are good exaples of cake with different frosting. The different fenders and engine did not hide the roof line and what it was based on."<<

What what was based on? The Pontiac being based on the Chevy? Different fenders & engine, and that was it?

The Nomad rode a 115" wheelbase while the Safari rode a 122". I'll bet you thought they were on the same frames, right?

A roof stamping does not make for one vehicle being 'based' on another by a country mile.

I own a '59 Buick, been working on it for a number of years now; on the downside of a frame-off resto-mod. I've been thru hell & high water hunting parts and chasing other GM division repro catalogs. Care to guess exactly how much interchanges with a Chevy? And I ask this while offering this factual tidbit: all the other GM B-bodies were.... to use your words... 'based' off the Buick (no; not the other way around... but bear in mind I am using your words here).

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hyperv6' ->>"I agree that prior to 1977 there were more differances but the GTO was a A body. They may have called it a Fisher body then and today they call it a corperate platform. Times change but other the engines and rear ends they are no different for the most part than todays cars with some styling changes and and different suspension tuning."<<

My issue is completely with your choice of wording and the misleading impression it gives.

Yes, of course the GTO was an A-Body, so was the 442, Gran Sport & SS. And to openly claim Pontiac has long been a "handed-down Chevy" and site this as an example of that is ludicrious and factually incorrect. Thusly, I must call that out.

>>"But everytime I... pull out a Small Block Chevy that was a streaight bolt in to replace the 400 boltin with mounts and bell housing it remind me just how close these cars really were."<<

Lemmee get this straight: the cars were really close because a SBC will bolt into a Pontiac engine bay except for all the points that actually bolt it in (motor mounts & bellhousing) ?? You know you can 'bolt in' a Packard V-8 just as easily.... :rolleyes:

{ OR were you trying to say a Chevy engine will bolt up to a Pontiac-pattern trans & Pontiac mounts ?? }

>>"I am not saying Pontiac did a bad job on their versions in the 60 but they were still a shared car to a greatr degree."<<

To a "greater degree" than what ??? More than 50% = greater degree ?? You need to be straight on this issue for posterity and credibility, man, and it sure doesn't sound like you're very familiar with the cars of example here.

>>"The 55-57 Nomad and Safari are good exaples of cake with different frosting. The different fenders and engine did not hide the roof line and what it was based on."<<

What what was based on? The Pontiac being based on the Chevy? Different fenders & engine, and that was it?

The Nomad rode a 115" wheelbase while the Safari rode a 122". I'll bet you thought they were on the same frames, right?

A roof stamping does not make for one vehicle being 'based' on another by a country mile.

I own a '59 Buick, been working on it for a number of years now; on the downside of a frame-off resto-mod. I've been thru hell & high water hunting parts and chasing other GM division repro catalogs. Care to guess exactly how much interchanges with a Chevy? And I ask this while offering this factual tidbit: all the other GM B-bodies were.... to use your words... 'based' off the Buick (no; not the other way around... but bear in mind I am using your words here).

You can have your veiw as much as I. While you look at past GM cars for their differances I look at them for thier similarities. It goes back to the saying glass half full or half empty.

I can see the differance in thr Canadian full size Pontiacs with the Chevy frames that lack the wide track suspensions built in the 60's but I also see the full size Pontiac SD cars int he late 60 with 396 engines to. I know they were limited in Canada but it also shows these parts are direct boilt in's. And don't give me that Packard crap as you know what I mean.

You might change a Safari wheel base 7 inches but it was a two door wagon with the same roof line that was developed for a Chevy. I see the cars as near twins [while not identical but similar in many ways]. If Chevy did not have Nomad would Pontiac have not has a Safari?

How many other Pontiacs would have disapeared if Chevy did not have a sister car?

Pontiac and Chevy are tied closer in many way just as was Olds and Buick were.

Either way this is a argument that neither of us will win as it is more on how you view it. If you want to count exact parts you win and if you count similar parts and basic engineering I would win.

The bottom line is today Pontiac is a mess and returning to its past is not the answer. Building great styled cars that are performance based are. Instead of being the great American touring car they just need to be a real touing car period.

Cars like the G5 and Vibe are just not getting it done. I just think it is sad while Chevy has a Cobalt and HHR thas share much they are more different than a G5 is from a Cobalt. It is time GM need to make Pontiac different or based on cars not old here in any form of Chevy. That is why the Solstice and G 6 to me are the only real Pontiacs offered.

They may have hidden the relationships of these vehicles in the past better it all came out in the later years when they did not work as hard to hide them. GM is not fopoling many anymore like for is not fooling anyonw with Mercury.

Automotive Incest is a wicked thing.

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Here's the sad truth: In 40 years, noone will be enthusiastically debating the differences between the G5 & Cobalt, or the various Epsilon products...This is what GM has lost--the indefinable qualities that make motorheads debate seemingly minute details.

I'm awestruck by how things have devolved so quickly--the future plans for GM, IMHO, are simply a recipe for further market contraction, rental-grade product and an alarming deaf ear to the direction of the auto industry.

I sincerely hope I'm worng.

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Here's the sad truth: In 40 years, noone will be enthusiastically debating the differences between the G5 & Cobalt, or the various Epsilon products...This is what GM has lost--the indefinable qualities that make motorheads debate seemingly minute details.

I'm awestruck by how things have devolved so quickly--the future plans for GM, IMHO, are simply a recipe for further market contraction, rental-grade product and an alarming deaf ear to the direction of the auto industry.

I sincerely hope I'm worng.

+1

It seems that everything I feared (which enzl would constantly bring up) has come to pass.

I hope you're wrong too, my friend.

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You can have your veiw as much as I. While you look at past GM cars for their differances I look at them for thier similarities. It goes back to the saying glass half full or half empty.

I can see the differance in thr Canadian full size Pontiacs with the Chevy frames that lack the wide track suspensions built in the 60's but I also see the full size Pontiac SD cars int he late 60 with 396 engines to. I know they were limited in Canada but it also shows these parts are direct boilt in's. And don't give me that Packard crap as you know what I mean.

You might change a Safari wheel base 7 inches but it was a two door wagon with the same roof line that was developed for a Chevy. I see the cars as near twins [while not identical but similar in many ways]. If Chevy did not have Nomad would Pontiac have not has a Safari?

How many other Pontiacs would have disapeared if Chevy did not have a sister car?

Pontiac and Chevy are tied closer in many way just as was Olds and Buick were.

Either way this is a argument that neither of us will win as it is more on how you view it. If you want to count exact parts you win and if you count similar parts and basic engineering I would win.

The bottom line is today Pontiac is a mess and returning to its past is not the answer. Building great styled cars that are performance based are. Instead of being the great American touring car they just need to be a real touing car period.

Cars like the G5 and Vibe are just not getting it done. I just think it is sad while Chevy has a Cobalt and HHR thas share much they are more different than a G5 is from a Cobalt. It is time GM need to make Pontiac different or based on cars not old here in any form of Chevy. That is why the Solstice and G 6 to me are the only real Pontiacs offered.

They may have hidden the relationships of these vehicles in the past better it all came out in the later years when they did not work as hard to hide them. GM is not fopoling many anymore like for is not fooling anyonw with Mercury.

Automotive Incest is a wicked thing.

Unfortunately, GM doesn't have the money to do this now (although I don't understand their excuse when they did have the money to do it). At the risk of being repetitive, this is why Pontiac should be aligned with Opel instead of Saturn. Opel represents what Pontiac should be: edgier, sportier, more stylish, and more upscale than Chevrolet. The Insignia and next gen Corsa and Astra would be perfect products to elevate Pontiac back to its rightful place as a bridge between Chevrolet and Buick in GM's brand hierarchy (the three products would need to be augmented by a couple of RWD car products to complete the lineup). The next gen Meriva, Zafira, and Antara could be added to the Terrain and Acadia crossovers to transform GMC into a more market appropriate MPV/crossover brand to complement Pontiac's car lineup (GM would move Buick up to join Cadillac as a FWD luxury vehicle companion brand to Cadillac's RWD luxury car lineup after selling Saab and Hummer). This would make Pontiac/GMC a desirable and competent midmarket dealer network. The 2 brands still have the market image and larger dealership base to make it a successful and prosperous proposition for GM. The transition should begin by the Insignia sedan and wagon replacing the G6 sedan in Pontiac's lineup (I would like to see this car badged as a "Grand Prix", Pontiac should revert back to some of its racy model names from the past to attempt to inject some passion back into its products; the G-numeric model designation system is just too sterile and clinical for Pontiac). Each time a next gen Opel product reaches the market, a North American built replica should take its place in the lineup for either Pontiac or GMC.

If GM does this, what would they do with poor Saturn? I say shut it down (GM doesn't need 2 affordable divisions) or give it mildly restyled Chevy products. Saturn basically appeals to people who want an affordable GM product but don't want to be seen driving a Chevy. To satisfy the needs of this customer, why not take a Chevy product, give it a significantly restyled front/rear treatment and interior, and slap a Saturn badge and model name on it. GM did this in the past to successfully differentiate the last gen Grand Am from the Alero. To the casual observer, the 2 cars were distinct and different products (of course, enthusiasts knew better). Why not duplicate this formula to create products for Saturn? After the Cruze and next gen Malibu are introduced to the public they could be followed by their Saturn counterparts about 6 months later.

Opel's market potential shouldn't be wasted on Saturn. It should be reserved for the 2 brands that have the heritage and dealership base to properly represent and sell Opel's intrinsic brand qualities in the U.S. market: Pontiac and GMC. I apologize for my repetitiveness on this issue, but I wished GM would realize how lucrative this plan would be for Pontiac/GMC and the corporation in general. These 2 historic North American GM brands shouldn't be disrespected and diluted with blatant Chevy clone products any longer! Stop the insanity!

Edited by cire
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Pontiac needs a 4, 6 and 8 cylinder Alpha lineup, of varying wheelbase and overall lengths. That's as simple and true a statement I can make.

That's the God's truth... I just can not care anymore.

I refuse to get my hopes & dreams for the GM of

tomorrow to get crushed again. GM stopped being

GM in 1996 as far as I'm concerned... they've made

a few (select) products since then that get an A-

from me but I'm really starting to lose hope.

This future that is starting to crystalize out of the

cafe/rip:zeta/fwd-gallore fog is to me so very

disgusting and sacriligious that I want no part of

it, I do not care about a company that will roll

over and die.

If in a few years GM is nothing but a bunch of

Opel & Daewoo rebadges then WhoTF cares that

the buildings selling them have Pontiac & Cadillac

logos attached toi their roof tops?

Every time I open a thread like this I get a little

closer to just giving up & not caring at all about

modern cars at all. Why flip through an R&T or

read a bunch of links about upcoming cars when

they exhude only compromise & mediocrity.

PCS:

Your giddy attitude, self-righteous posts &

seeminglyupbeat "I told you so" mindset makes

me sick. Honestly I do not care for you and I

feel people like you (with your love of GM's

roll-over-&-die mentality) are destroying any

& everything that I ever loved about GM.

I'd rather see GM die a quick death and get

absolved into Chrysler than see nothing but

&#036;h&#33;ty FWD "2014 Opel Kaddets" roaming the

streets in USA with Chevy & Buick logos

3M taped to their grilles.

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I own a '59 Buick, been working on it for a number of years now; on the downside of a frame-off resto-mod. I've been thru hell & high water hunting parts and chasing other GM division repro catalogs. Care to guess exactly how much interchanges with a Chevy? And I ask this while offering this factual tidbit: all the other GM B-bodies were.... to use your words... 'based' off the Buick (no; not the other way around... but bear in mind I am using your words here).

- door skin (excluding the leading edge of the tailfin)

- glass

- window regulators

- greenhouse (excluding some brightwork)

- lock cylinders

- radiator?

- rear view mirror

- gas cap

- weather stripping for the doors

- door handles, lock pulls

- rochester-sourced carb

- sealed beam headlights

??? That's honestly all I can think of

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Unfortunately, GM doesn't have the money to do this now (although I don't understand their excuse when they did have the money to do it). At the risk of being repetitive, this is why Pontiac should be aligned with Opel instead of Saturn. Opel represents what Pontiac should be: edgier, sportier, more stylish, and more upscale than Chevrolet. The Insignia and next gen Corsa and Astra would be perfect products to elevate Pontiac back to its rightful place as a bridge between Chevrolet and Buick in GM's brand hierarchy (the three products would need to be augmented by a couple of RWD car products to complete the lineup). The next gen Meriva, Zafira, and Antara could be added to the Terrain and Acadia crossovers to transform GMC into a more market appropriate MPV/crossover brand to complement Pontiac's car lineup (GM would move Buick up to join Cadillac as a FWD luxury vehicle companion brand to Cadillac's RWD luxury car lineup after selling Saab and Hummer). This would make Pontiac/GMC a desirable and competent midmarket dealer network. The 2 brands still have the market image and larger dealership base to make it a successful and prosperous proposition for GM. The transition should begin by the Insignia sedan and wagon replacing the G6 sedan in Pontiac's lineup (I would like to see this car badged as a "Grand Prix", Pontiac should revert back to some of its racy model names from the past to attempt to inject some passion back into its products; the G-numeric model designation system is just too sterile and clinical for Pontiac). Each time a next gen Opel product reaches the market, a North American built replica should take its place in the lineup for either Pontiac or GMC.

If GM does this, what would they do with poor Saturn? I say shut it down (GM doesn't need 2 affordable divisions) or give it mildly restyled Chevy products. Saturn basically appeals to people who want an affordable GM product but don't want to be seen driving a Chevy. To satisfy the needs of this customer, why not take a Chevy product, give it a significantly restyled front/rear treatment and interior, and slap a Saturn badge and model name on it. GM did this in the past to successfully differentiate the last gen Grand Am from the Alero. To the casual observer, the 2 cars were distinct and different products (of course, enthusiasts knew better). Why not duplicate this formula to create products for Saturn? After the Cruze and next gen Malibu are introduced to the public they could be followed by their Saturn counterparts about 6 months later.

Opel's market potential shouldn't be wasted on Saturn. It should be reserved for the 2 brands that have the heritage and dealership base to properly represent and sell Opel's intrinsic brand qualities in the U.S. market: Pontiac and GMC. I apologize for my repetitiveness on this issue, but I wished GM would realize how lucrative this plan would be for Pontiac/GMC and the corporation in general. These 2 historic North American GM brands shouldn't be disrespected and diluted with blatant Chevy clone products any longer! Stop the insanity!

GM could move the divisions to more independent models but they need to stop trying to make each division something for everyone at each division.

IF GM only needs one be all division and that is the value leader Chevy.

If needed take Buick, Pontiac and Saturn and combine them into one dealership and only sell models like the Opels and Holdens they already sell overseas.

Let Buick offer the large near luxury car and let Pontiac only sell a few real world class tuned perfornace cars along with some HSV versions. Then let Saturn sell the Opels that are not copies of Chevy. Make all these premium cars and only sell 4 models per divison. THis would maintain all three brands and give them fresh product not sold by Chevy with out major investment and would also add to the non GM divisions sales.

Kill GMC as it has out lived it's needs if truck sales remain tanked.

The problem is not too many brands but to many models. GM has a world portfolio of cars we don't have that could bring a new face and look to the three divisions that need help.

I know it is a over simple overveiw and a lot of near impossible details would have to be achieved but at this point GM really only needs Chevy and Caddy. Some majore changes need to be made to make the other three brand relivent again.

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hyperv6- >>"You can have your veiw as much as I. While you look at past GM cars for their differances I look at them for thier similarities. It goes back to the saying glass half full or half empty."<<

That only applies at the exact moment the glass is literally 50% full/empty.

Saying a GTO is "Chevelle-based" is a glass 10% full, yet you still want to call it 'half full'. This is like you saying the sky is blue, I say it's red and that 'we each have our own opinions'. Nuts, bolts, rocker arms and crankshafts are not opinions.

BTW- I look at past GM cars for their ACTUALITIES; not apparently agenda-driven interpretations of them.

>>"I can see the differance in thr Canadian full size Pontiacs with the Chevy frames...

...but I also see the full size Pontiac SD cars int he late 60 with 396 engines to. I know they were limited in Canada but it also shows these parts are direct boilt in's."<<

Those are reskinned Chevys; unloved bastards. Canadians got royally screwed with that arrangement.

Bolting a SBC into a Chevy chassis has no bearing whatsoever to bolting a Chevy engine into a Pontiac. Why would you refer to a reskinned Chevy in order to make a point how "close Pontiacs & Chevys are" ?? The Canadian Pontiac is a Chevy. Do you live in Canada, do you only work on Canadian Pontiacs?

BTW: the full-size performance Canadian Pontiacs wore '2+2' badging; the Sport DeLuxes were all Acadians & Beaumonts.

>>"You might change a Safari wheel base 7 inches but it was a two door wagon with the same roof line that was developed for a Chevy."<<

Safari wheelbase was not "changed". The Safari was developed by Pontiac for the Pontiac chassis, the Nomad was developed by Chevy for the Chevy chassis. The roof stamping & greenhouse was developed for both divisions & was shared.

>>"How many other Pontiacs would have disapeared if Chevy did not have a sister car?"<<

Interesting question. Not these for sure :

Bonneville : 1957 >< Impala : 1958

Tempest : 1961 >< Chevy II : 1962

Grand Prix : 1962 (or '69 if you want to stick to the A-Special)>< Monte Carlo : 1970

GTO : 1964 >< Chevelle SS >< 1965

>>"Either way this is a argument that neither of us will win as it is more on how you view it. If you want to count exact parts you win and if you count similar parts and basic engineering I would win."<<

"You can have your view as much as I." :rolleyes:

Your "basic engineering" gets you nearly as close to a Fairlane GT as it does to a Chevelle SS.

Boy, for a guy who has professed admiration for vintage PMD, you sure play it loose & sloppy with the facts & insinuations, the result being a continual beating down of the Division's history, breezily excused with a 'you know what I mean'.

Oh well, perhaps you really are more of a Chevy fan.

>>"They may have hidden the relationships of these vehicles in the past better...."<<

There's no "hiding it" in 1955 or 1960 or 1965 (big cars). Safari / Nomad is all right there, out in the open; the greenhouse/roof. Done.

Edited by balthazar
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hyperv6:

maybe someday you can attend a car show and look over a '57 Pontiac,'57 Chevrolet,

'57 Buick,'57 Olds & a '57 Cadillac and THEN you can get back to us about the facts ,

right now you're coming off like quite the ignorant arm-chair car fan.

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hyperv6:

maybe someday you can attend a car show and look over a '57 Pontiac,'57 Chevrolet,

'57 Buick,'57 Olds & a '57 Cadillac and THEN you can get back to us about the facts ,

right now you're coming off like quite the ignorant arm-chair car fan.

What was that Mr B Pillar.

Before you toss out the term Ignorent you had better look at your own comments from the past.

For a long time GM has has some sharing between the lines. As the 50's ended they sharing increases till it hit a low in the 70's. But we all know that.

I have my view and balthazar has his and while I may disagree on some point I still respect his view. He can makes some good points without getting stupid.

As far as I am concerned you were not adding anything here to what he and I were speaking on. If you have nothing positive or helpful to add then but the hell out.

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hyperv6- >>"You can have your veiw as much as I. While you look at past GM cars for their differances I look at them for thier similarities. It goes back to the saying glass half full or half empty."<<

That only applies at the exact moment the glass is literally 50% full/empty.

Saying a GTO is "Chevelle-based" is a glass 10% full, yet you still want to call it 'half full'. This is like you saying the sky is blue, I say it's red and that 'we each have our own opinions'. Nuts, bolts, rocker arms and crankshafts are not opinions.

BTW- I look at past GM cars for their ACTUALITIES; not apparently agenda-driven interpretations of them.

>>"I can see the differance in thr Canadian full size Pontiacs with the Chevy frames...

...but I also see the full size Pontiac SD cars int he late 60 with 396 engines to. I know they were limited in Canada but it also shows these parts are direct boilt in's."<<

Those are reskinned Chevys; unloved bastards. Canadians got royally screwed with that arrangement.

Bolting a SBC into a Chevy chassis has no bearing whatsoever to bolting a Chevy engine into a Pontiac. Why would you refer to a reskinned Chevy in order to make a point how "close Pontiacs & Chevys are" ?? The Canadian Pontiac is a Chevy. Do you live in Canada, do you only work on Canadian Pontiacs?

BTW: the full-size performance Canadian Pontiacs wore '2+2' badging; the Sport DeLuxes were all Acadians & Beaumonts.

>>"You might change a Safari wheel base 7 inches but it was a two door wagon with the same roof line that was developed for a Chevy."<<

Safari wheelbase was not "changed". The Safari was developed by Pontiac for the Pontiac chassis, the Nomad was developed by Chevy for the Chevy chassis. The roof stamping & greenhouse was developed for both divisions & was shared.

>>"How many other Pontiacs would have disapeared if Chevy did not have a sister car?"<<

Interesting question. Not these for sure :

Bonneville : 1957 >< Impala : 1958

Tempest : 1961 >< Chevy II : 1962

Grand Prix : 1962 (or '69 if you want to stick to the A-Special)>< Monte Carlo : 1970

GTO : 1964 >< Chevelle SS >< 1965

>>"Either way this is a argument that neither of us will win as it is more on how you view it. If you want to count exact parts you win and if you count similar parts and basic engineering I would win."<<

"You can have your view as much as I." :rolleyes:

Your "basic engineering" gets you nearly as close to a Fairlane GT as it does to a Chevelle SS.

Boy, for a guy who has professed admiration for vintage PMD, you sure play it loose & sloppy with the facts & insinuations, the result being a continual beating down of the Division's history, breezily excused with a 'you know what I mean'.

Oh well, perhaps you really are more of a Chevy fan.

>>"They may have hidden the relationships of these vehicles in the past better...."<<

There's no "hiding it" in 1955 or 1960 or 1965 (big cars). Safari / Nomad is all right there, out in the open; the greenhouse/roof. Done.

I have spent a lot of time with both Chevy and Pontiac and know how many of the part are the same, shared or interchange with little effort.

In the 50's it was less and grew to what it became in the 70's and 80's. I will give you they were never identical or as bad as it became in the later years.

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Hey look... I bet I can use this radiator shell, fenders & side glass for my '32 Ford.

If it looks close from 25 feet away it MUST be interchangable.

21kkpe0.jpg

This ain't horse-shoes &/or handgrenades. <_<

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They should at the very least have the money to stamp out a hood, fenders, door skins, quarter panels and deck lid for Pontiac that's different from a Chevrolet, not to mention plastic parts, like lamps, bumper covers, door trim panels and dashboards.
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GM is using it's resources in other areas. There is not much in the pipeline for Pontiac, that alone speaks volumes.

Too busy pumping billion$$$ into SAABand Saturn. <_<

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hyperv6- >>"I have spent a lot of time with both Chevy and Pontiac and know how many of the part are the same, shared or interchange with little effort."<<

OK; would you then be so kind as to offer up what interchanges between a '59 Pontiac & a '59 Chevy full-size?

>>"In the 50's it was less and grew to what it became in the 70's and 80's. I will give you they were never identical or as bad as it became in the later years."<<

In the '50s it was 10% if we're being generous.

Are we still going to call this "more alike than most people would think", or was the above a retraction of sorts?

>>"He can makes some good points without getting stupid."<<

I try.

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It's not trivia, it's heritage.

And we should try to be as accurate about it as possible.

AMEN.

That's why I get worked up.... people shoot their mouth

on here about GM & cars in general as if it was the line

at the super market and they were shooting the &#036;h&#33;

about the weather... but I, like many here, am a car

enthusiast to a degree most of you can not appreciate...

To imply that a '57 Pontiac is a '57 Chevy with a different

grille is criminal, I thought the same when I was 12 years

old but now I know better....

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hyperv6- >>"I have spent a lot of time with both Chevy and Pontiac and know how many of the part are the same, shared or interchange with little effort."<<

OK; would you then be so kind as to offer up what interchanges between a '59 Pontiac & a '59 Chevy full-size?

>>"In the 50's it was less and grew to what it became in the 70's and 80's. I will give you they were never identical or as bad as it became in the later years."<<

In the '50s it was 10% if we're being generous.

Are we still going to call this "more alike than most people would think", or was the above a retraction of sorts?

>>"He can makes some good points without getting stupid."<<

I try.

No retraction just a clairifcation.

At this point it is all has no bearing on todays problems at Pontiac. The pas it just that the past and it is time for some to remember and learn from it but stop living in it.

I am done wasting space on this.

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I can see GM is cutting back in areas you used to not see it.

I never got a explantion of where they were [Could have been the NHRAS race. But Pontiac at the Pontiaqc Nationals did not have any reps or a display of any kind there this year and that is a first for a long time.

Also I notices the sales books at the dealers for the 09 cars are only half the size as in the past. The Chevy books for the 08 vs 09 are cut nearly in half in size.

I am judging one of the larger Camaro shows in the midwest today and Sunday and it looks like they have not recieved much support this year from Chevy. Last year they got the Bumble Bee for 3 days and nothing so for this year.

I plan on going to the Glenmore Gathering next week where Wayne Cherry and 100 years of GM are feature. I am hoping they have sent a few cars from the historic collection in. Cut back may have hurt there.

Edited by hyperv6
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moltar- >>"So some parts may or may not have interchanged 50 years ago. What does that have to do with the state of GM, circa 2008? :) Too much obsession with trivia... ;)"<<

Not sure why you apparently feel compelled to comment on a topic you've repeatedly shown indifference for. You've posted countless anecdotals about your family, friends & co-workers; one might well call it 'too much obsession with anecdotals'... :P

hyperv6- >>"At this point it is all has no bearing on todays problems at Pontiac. The pas it just that the past and it is time for some to remember and learn from it but stop living in it. I am done wasting space on this."<<

Very good. I look forward to minimized historical misdirection in the future on these pages.

Edited by balthazar
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To imply that a '57 Pontiac is a '57 Chevy with a different

grille is criminal, I thought the same when I was 12 years

old but now I know better....

The irony is when I was 13, a Pontiac literally was a Chevy with a different grille--the '83 Pontiac Parisiene was a Caprice with a Pontiac grille and different taillight lenses. GMs in the '80s across the CPOB brands seemed to be differentiated primarily on grilles, taillights, and dashboards (sometimes, even the dashes were shared). The oldies had much more differentiation across the brands.

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