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Oracle of Delphi

GM Launches A Fact And Fiction Website

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About time.

It's more for the Great Unwashed who have so many misconceptions about GM it's not even funny, not for savvy people like us. :AH-HA_wink:

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Nice website, but outside of a bunch of auto enthusiasts who already know this stuff, is the general public ever going to visit it? Hopefully GM will incorporate this site into their advertising somehow, even if it's just a little "visit gmfactsandfiction.com" at the bottom of print or TV ads.

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The EV-1 Really was a cool car, but as the link says, it wasn't ready for prime time.

Volt should be fabulous, however.

Chris

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I think GM should advertise this on prime time TV. I've noticed that Hyundai has a similar type of website explaining how their cars have improved too.

I still have to agree somewhat with Peter DeLorenzo and his latest autoextremist.com post about how most Americans simply don't care anymore about GM or how good it's cars are now. It's going to be very, very difficult to get people who were burned by a bad GM apple 10 or so years ago and have since moved on to the imports to get back into a GM showroom. A perfect example is my 57 year old coworker who after going through a real bad time with a late 90s Regal and a mid 90s Saturn swears he's 100% completely done with GM. What sucks about that though, is not only is he done with GM, but so are his 3 kids (who are roughly my age) and probably the rest of the people in his family who hear him talk about how much that car sucked for him. We talked about it today in fact at work- he said the only American car he'd consider would be just about anything made by Ford, but that's it. He drives a Mazda now. Which I guess is a Ford, sort of.

So what does GM do about these conscientious defectors?

BTW- now that I"m on the subject of Buick - why does Buick now only sell 3 different cars? When my Dad worked for Buick, you could find pretty much any kind of car you wanted in their showroom. What in the hell is GM doing?? Where is the Park Avenue? The Riviera? A Turbo Grand National? A really fun Skyhawk style hatchback (think Buick version of say, an Audi A3 or something). What about that sexy looking convertible concept from a few years ago?

Imagine a full lineup of awesome Buicks - some based on Sigma - some based on Zeta - a new small Alpha Buick that's every bit as fun to drive and cool as a small Audi or Bimmer - a new 2010 Buick Wildcat based on Sigma. The commercial starts with grainy home videos of a little kid dancing around their parents Buick Electra (that kid is now in their late 30s or so) - voice is explaining how you looked up to your Dad coming home in his baby blue 225 all spiffy and pro looking - now the little kid is a slick looking yuppy guy getting into a (Holden) Buick Park Avenue or a (soon to be) Alpha Buick Wildcat with a $h! eating grin on his face - "times have changed, but the car line remains the same"

OKay, too much wine tonight.

:lol:

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I think GM should advertise this on prime time TV. I've noticed that Hyundai has a similar type of website explaining how their cars have improved too.

I still have to agree somewhat with Peter DeLorenzo and his latest autoextremist.com post about how most Americans simply don't care anymore about GM or how good it's cars are now. It's going to be very, very difficult to get people who were burned by a bad GM apple 10 or so years ago and have since moved on to the imports to get back into a GM showroom. A perfect example is my 57 year old coworker who after going through a real bad time with a late 90s Regal and a mid 90s Saturn swears he's 100% completely done with GM. What sucks about that though, is not only is he done with GM, but so are his 3 kids (who are roughly my age) and probably the rest of the people in his family who hear him talk about how much that car sucked for him. We talked about it today in fact at work- he said the only American car he'd consider would be just about anything made by Ford, but that's it. He drives a Mazda now. Which I guess is a Ford, sort of.

So what does GM do about these conscientious defectors?

BTW- now that I"m on the subject of Buick - why does Buick now only sell 3 different cars? When my Dad worked for Buick, you could find pretty much any kind of car you wanted in their showroom. What in the hell is GM doing?? Where is the Park Avenue? The Riviera? A Turbo Grand National? A really fun Skyhawk style hatchback (think Buick version of say, an Audi A3 or something). What about that sexy looking convertible concept from a few years ago?

Imagine a full lineup of awesome Buicks - some based on Sigma - some based on Zeta - a new small Alpha Buick that's every bit as fun to drive and cool as a small Audi or Bimmer - a new 2010 Buick Wildcat based on Sigma. The commercial starts with grainy home videos of a little kid dancing around their parents Buick Electra (that kid is now in their late 30s or so) - voice is explaining how you looked up to your Dad coming home in his baby blue 225 all spiffy and pro looking - now the little kid is a slick looking yuppy guy getting into a (Holden) Buick Park Avenue or a (soon to be) Alpha Buick Wildcat with a $h! eating grin on his face - "times have changed, but the car line remains the same"

OKay, too much wine tonight.

:lol:

Wine and no cheese? That would make me pretty drunk, I need to eat with my alcohol. Anyway I'm going to tell you the plain ugly truth about the Buick/Pontiac/GMC group.

What GM has managed to do without hardly a soul noticing is merge three brands into one. After GM shut down Oldsmobile, it didn't have the stomach or the political will to shut down 2 more brands like it needed to do at that time. So GM came up with the present scheme to shrink 3 brands into one. However, with GM's continued sales slide downward, I seriously doubt you will ever see a full Buick lineup without the death of Pontiac. Same goes for the converse, I doubt you will ever see a full Pontiac lineup without the death of Buick. If GM continues to operate BPG as it is now, each car brand will always only sell 2 or 3 cars each, because remember these three brands are acting as one brand now. GM has effectively just turned three brands into one. The days of Buick or Pontiac offering a full lineup of vehicles is over, unless one or the other car brands dies in this unholy merger.

As far as GMC and for that matter Chevy trucks is concerned, GM has two choices here. First, either pick one brand or the other to be GM's truck brand. If I were picking it would be GMC. That way any GM brand could sell a truck. But you know as well as I do, that GM will always pick Chevy over GMC. Secondly if GM wanted to be fair and not pick one brand over the other in the truck world, it could create a whole new brand to represent GM's trucks, whatever that would be. But that cost money, money GM just doesn't have at this time.

I long for the days when I was a child during the 70's and GM had actual Divisions, with full lineups for each Division, but those days are past. We and GM must now deal with the financial and political issues as they are, and move forward with the hope of changing the public's perception of GM. I personally think the Chevy Volt will do that, so much so, I am investing heavyly in GM stock. I think it has the potential to increase 10 fold, maybe more if the Volt is a hit. The Volt as Lutz says is a game changer, I think so too. Maybe just maybe, if the technology takes off you just may get a full lineup of cars again, they just won't run on crude anymore, and that's a good thing. :AH-HA_wink:

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>>"Secondly if GM wanted to be fair and not pick one brand over the other in the truck world, it could create a whole new brand to represent GM's trucks, whatever that would be."<<

The way this is worded makes no sense. If they were to avoid 'picking one over the other' by starting a new all-truck brand: 1. GM already has that with GMC, and 2. the result would be adding another brand. Do you want to give enzl a heart attack??

I have no problem with Buick/Pontiac being a 2-3 vehicle lineup each, reminds me of pre-'61 when that was the case (in effect). The contraction of the market is pushing things in that direction, I believe.

The only arguement to keeping Chevy Truck at the expense of GMC is the brand sales ranking of Chevrolet. But it is still picking the 'lower class' & image truck, when the opposite is more prudent, IMO.

I still advocate giving the 'people mover' trucks to Chevy and keeping the work & HD models at GMC. And the idea that any GM dealer could sell 'GMC's is makes good sense.

Edited by balthazar
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>>"Secondly if GM wanted to be fair and not pick one brand over the other in the truck world, it could create a whole new brand to represent GM's trucks, whatever that would be."<<

The way this is worded makes no sense. If they were to avoid 'picking one over the other' by starting a new all-truck brand: 1. GM already has that with GMC, and 2. the result would be adding another brand. Do you want to give enzl a heart attack??

I have no problem with Buick/Pontiac being a 2-3 vehicle lineup each, reminds me of pre-'61 when that was the case (in effect). The contraction of the market is pushing things in that direction, I believe.

+1

Not every GM division needs to cater to every market or niche. The corporation wasn't ever supposed to operate that way and because of it's limited time struggling to operate that way, GM now has an even harder row to hoe in the eyes of the public. The identities of the divisions were lost in the 70s and 80s.

The only arguement to keeping Chevy Truck at the expense of GMC is the brand sales ranking of Chevrolet. But it is still picking the 'lower class' & image truck, when the opposite is more prudent, IMO.

I still advocate giving the 'people mover' trucks to Chevy and keeping the work & HD models at GMC. And the idea that any GM dealer could sell 'GMC's is makes good sense.

+1 again....

in the GM empire, Chevrolet = volume and visibility. Therefore, if the volume of the markt is going to X-overs and small SUVs, then GM needs to develop Chevy Trucks in that direction.

Leave MOST of the actual trucks to GMC (I still think Chevy should keep the Silverado) especially now that Hummer is exiting the family.

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>>"Secondly if GM wanted to be fair and not pick one brand over the other in the truck world, it could create a whole new brand to represent GM's trucks, whatever that would be."<<

The way this is worded makes no sense. If they were to avoid 'picking one over the other' by starting a new all-truck brand: 1. GM already has that with GMC, and 2. the result would be adding another brand. Do you want to give enzl a heart attack??

Sure it makes sense, if GM were going to play fair, it would not pick GMC or Chevy to represent GM trucks, it would create something new, say GM Trucks, or Borgermobiles or whatever, that's not the point. The point was GM will never pick GMC (the red headed step child), over Chevy to represent GM's Truck market as a whole. Not in this lifetime anyway. The fact remains that I see models not being given to GMC but to Chevy, If I were GMC I would be very nervous, in fact I would be twitching if I were them.

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What GM has managed to do without hardly a soul noticing is merge three brands into one.

:cussing:

OK.....again.....GM hasn't merged three brands into one. There are still three separate brands in place here.....

Buick.....

Pontiac.....

GMC.....

While it's true that the GM "divisions" don't exist like they used to......what GM HAS done.....and time will tell if it's an effective strategy.....is to merge the THREE brands into ONE distribution channel with shared marketing and advertising strategies. (Just like Lincoln and Mercury are separate brands that share a distribution channel.)

The buying public still sees it as a BUICK LaCrosse, or a PONTIAC G8, or a GMC Sierra......not a Buick-Pontiac-GMC Lucerne or a Buick-Pontiac-GMC Solstice.

And MY fear, IMHO, is that by doing this, (reducing models and merging the three brands into one distribution channel) they are running the risk of diluting any brand heritage or brand strength Buick, Pontiac, and GMC still have.

There's no longer room for individual brand product focus (like that swoopy Riviera, or that Trans-Am, etc.) that could really help to elevate these once storied brands.

Of course, I'm sure a major part of this move is the severe lack of $$$ to support three fully-functioning (and healthy) brands.....

:confused0071:

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I long for the days when I was a child during the 70's and GM had actual Divisions, with full lineups for each Division, but those days are past. We and GM must now deal with the financial and political issues as they are, and move forward with the hope of changing the public's perception of GM. I personally think the Chevy Volt will do that, so much so, I am investing heavyly in GM stock. I think it has the potential to increase 10 fold, maybe more if the Volt is a hit. The Volt as Lutz says is a game changer, I think so too. Maybe just maybe, if the technology takes off you just may get a full lineup of cars again, they just won't run on crude anymore, and that's a good thing. :AH-HA_wink:

+1

Chris

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:cussing:

OK.....again.....GM hasn't merged three brands into one. There are still three separate brands in place here.....

Buick.....

Pontiac.....

GMC.....

Don't kid yourself, that's exactly what they did. That's why you go to the same building to buy a so called, Buick, Pontiac, and GMC. Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain, because that man is GM, and that's who is running BPG. It's a one brand strategy with 3 different marketing directions.

As for the old GM Divisions, well they haven't existed for almost 40 years when GM created GMAD, the General Motors Assembly Division, which took the individual assembly plants away from the divisions and made them corporate plants.

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Don't kid yourself, that's exactly what they did. That's why you go to the same building to buy a so called, Buick, Pontiac, and GMC. Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain, because that man is GM, and that's who is running BPG. It's a one brand strategy with 3 different marketing directions.

As for the old GM Divisions, well they haven't existed for almost 40 years when GM created GMAD, the General Motors Assembly Division, which took the individual assembly plants away from the divisions and made them corporate plants.

Well, at least are still 3 different brand labels on the cars... they aren't going to be putting Buick badges on the Pontiac or vice versa...unless they are going to have a new 'BPG' brand for all of them that has the Buick trishield made of 3 V-crests as the logo.. :)

Isn't the Buick-Pontiac-GMC reality like Lincoln-Mercury-- 2 brands, 1 dealer organization, maybe 1 marketing organization?

Edited by moltar
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Well, at least are still 3 different brand labels on the cars... they aren't going to be putting Buick badges on the Pontiac or vice versa...unless they are going to have a new 'BPG' brand for all of them that has the Buick trishield made of 3 V-crests as the logo.. :)

Isn't the Buick-Pontiac-GMC reality like Lincoln-Mercury-- 2 brands, 1 dealer organization, maybe 1 marketing organization?

Yes....<groan>......thank you......

From wikipedia.......

"A brand is a collection of images and ideas representing an economic producer; more specifically, it refers to the descriptive verbal attributes and concrete symbols such as a name, logo, slogan, and design scheme that convey the essence of a company, product or service."

(embolden for emphasis).....note again the descriptive words "name", "logo", "slogan", and "design scheme"......all things that differentiate Buick from Pontiac from GMC.

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Yes....<groan>......thank you......

From wikipedia.......

"A brand is a collection of images and ideas representing an economic producer; more specifically, it refers to the descriptive verbal attributes and concrete symbols such as a name, logo, slogan, and design scheme that convey the essence of a company, product or service."

(embolden for emphasis).....note again the descriptive words "name", "logo", "slogan", and "design scheme"......all things that differentiate Buick from Pontiac from GMC.

I agree with your analysis of the Wikipedia definition for this example, but I also can sort of understand what GM is doing. As for what the standard definition would be compared to what GM's definition of "brand" would be, I really don't quite know what GM is doing. (in other words, instead of referring to B-P-G as a new "brand" - refer to them perhaps as a "division" of GM, not in the way GM was structured in the 50s, but then refer to B-P-G as separate brands within this new "division" we created. Hell, I don't know - I see what GM is doing and they're defining BPG as a new "brand" now - a new brand that was once 3 different old brands. What in the world am I saying? :rotflmao:

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It has been stated time & time again, if you look at Buick, Pontiac, & GMC as a whole they are a complete/full line-up franchise. So why not just brand them as single complete line-up under a single brand?

I know I know... not a popular opinion, but still... If GM were to consolidate the three brands into a single marketable brand, Buick is the only brand that's been able to sell all three types of vehicles: premium sedans, sports/sporty vehicles (convertibles/ coupes/ muscle cars), and utility vehicles (minivans, CUVs, & SUVs.)

Buick's sporty coupes, roadsters, and convertibles could adopt "red illuminated interiors" with brushed metal trim and radical interior colors while shedding the traditional waterfall grille for something more sleek, integrated, and body colored…

Buick's sedans could continue to be premium/luxury sedans including performance variants that share characteristics with the coupes, convertibles, roadsters (same trim elements as the two-doors: red illuminated interiors, brushed metal trim, body colored grilles, etc...). These trims could be carried under one of Buick’s performance designations – such as GSX, Grand National, or T-Type.

Buick's SUVs, CUVs, minivans etc could all carry Denali as their highest trim level, while continuing to be a more premium alternative to Chevrolet (like the Traverse is compared to Enclave.)

Marketing would be for just one brand. GM would be able to ask more for a coupe, convertible, or sedan under the Buick brand. Not to mention, more types of vehicles could be jointly developed between the US & China with only Buick in mind without worrying over things that are currently plaguing the Delta II vehicle (will GM market the Chinese developed Delta II Buick as a US Buick or US Pontiac - It's ludicrous that selling a Delta II Chinese Buick as a Pontiac is even being considered.)

rant over... :)

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It has been stated time & time again, if you look at Buick, Pontiac, & GMC as a whole they are a complete/full line-up franchise. So why not just brand them as single complete line-up under a single brand?

I know I know... not a popular opinion, but still... If GM were to consolidate the three brands into a single marketable brand, Buick is the only brand that's been able to sell all three types of vehicles: premium sedans, sports/sporty vehicles (convertibles/ coupes/ muscle cars), and utility vehicles (minivans, CUVs, & SUVs.)

Buick's sporty coupes, roadsters, and convertibles could adopt "red illuminated interiors" with brushed metal trim and radical interior colors while shedding the traditional waterfall grille for something more sleek, integrated, and body colored…

Buick's sedans could continue to be premium/luxury sedans including performance variants that share characteristics with the coupes, convertibles, roadsters (same trim elements as the two-doors: red illuminated interiors, brushed metal trim, body colored grilles, etc...). These trims could be carried under one of Buick’s performance designations – such as GSX, Grand National, or T-Type.

Buick's SUVs, CUVs, minivans etc could all carry Denali as their highest trim level, while continuing to be a more premium alternative to Chevrolet (like the Traverse is compared to Enclave.)

Marketing would be for just one brand. GM would be able to ask more for a coupe, convertible, or sedan under the Buick brand. Not to mention, more types of vehicles could be jointly developed between the US & China with only Buick in mind without worrying over things that are currently plaguing the Delta II vehicle (will GM market the Chinese developed Delta II Buick as a US Buick or US Pontiac - It's ludicrous that selling a Delta II Chinese Buick as a Pontiac is even being considered.)

rant over... :)

QFT

This is what I believe too, and what I have been hinting should happen.

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At the end of the day though, the demise of Buick as a full lineup of really cool cars is whole heartedly depressing. Moreover, the same can be said for Pontiac as well (although I have more of a soft spot for Buick). I'm not too sure if GM upper management really quite knows what they're doing, or whether or not they realize that these brands still can have some major clout in the market place if they just creatively marketed them. (And had already borrowed some of the international architecture of Holden and Opel a few years earlier) and actually gave them a real compelling full lineup of vehicles for each name under this same brand. Alongside a G8 could be a luxurious version of Zeta (Chinese Park Avenue). Alongside Solstice could be a larger, 4 seat rear drive convertible called Skylark or Riviera.

And who says that these cars, marketed and branded as both Pontiacs and Buicks couldn't be under one showroom? If the dealers were taught to think outside the box, this could be a very strong "brand".

Instead, GM chooses a strategy of starvation. While it seems as if this company is short on cash, I still think they have the economy of scale to pull this off.

I dunno, it's a different world now than compared with the 1970s, but I think if the cars were truly uncompromising and insanely bad ass (like Audi A5 bad ass, or hell, new CTS bad ass), it could be pulled off.

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