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‘Already Bankrupt’ GM Won’t Be Rescued by U.S. Loan

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toyota as a business entity is worthy. however, look at all of their products and none of them is class leading.

.....uh I'd certainly call the Camry class-leading......it's been leading it's class for, oh, how many years?

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.....uh I'd certainly call the Camry class-leading......it's been leading it's class for, oh, how many years?

You're not serious are you? It may lead the class in sales, but as an overall product it is far from class leading. I would rate the Accord, Altima, and Malibu all way above it. Read the reviews to see...every comparison it's been in (that I've read) since the Malibu came out it was behind all three.

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You're not serious are you? It may lead the class in sales, but as an overall product it is far from class leading. I would rate the Accord, Altima, and Malibu all way above it. Read the reviews to see...every comparison it's been in (that I've read) since the Malibu came out it was behind all three.

Ya, but alas, ultimately, it's the sales that count. It's a vanilla generic, but that's what the American public likes.

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I consider that a sales leader not a class leader. To me a class leader earns the title by being a superior product to its competition.

Well, for whatever reason, the buying public does consider Camry to be class-leading....and they have voted with their wallets.

Ultimately, that's the only true gauge of product and marketing success. It's all about the numbers.

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Well, for whatever reason, the buying public does consider Camry to be class-leading....and they have voted with their wallets.

Ultimately, that's the only true gauge of product and marketing success. It's all about the numbers.

Yes, and as history has shown time and again, the best sellers aren't always the best cars in their classes. C'est la vie.

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The sooner they start re-organization the better. With or without uncles Sams help. You all know my view on this. I have driven a 2007 Camry LE its okay, nothing special but boy is the front end ugly The back seat is shaped odd the 2008 Malibu I drove far outclassed it and the Camry look like $h!. So did the 2008 Accord EX I road in.

Edited by gm4life

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... and one company has 2 workers for every 5 retirees; one company is the largest health insurance provider in the U.S.; one company has older factories that don't get a DIME from their local states; one company has a transparent, open system to contend with.... and I could go on.

GM's failures TODAY have little to do with its business decisions of the past 5-10 years and more to do with what happened before that.

In the National Post today, their editorial (although it was, over all, quite balanced) basically said the CAW needs to 'give up' its benefits so GM and Ford can compete.

Now I like a good anti-union joke like the rest of us, but is that what all this Globalization $h! is about? Middle class people must 'give up' wages and benefits so our companies can compete with people who will work for food in other countries?

Is that progress? This is a serious question: IS THIS PROGRESS?

I see companies falling left and right that had the audacity to pay their employees what they were worth - and now those companies are folding.

Eaton's was Canada's largest department store for 100 years. They paid their employees, on average, about double the going rate for retail service. GONE. What does Wal-Mart pay?

This is not progress. This is avarice and sloth.

This is the elite finally finding a fail proof way to control the masses.

Globalization, and the demand that YOU give up your luxuries while they increase thir wealth 5 times over was only the beginning. The green movement will be the plan that enslaves us all though. Once they get the majority of the population singing the 'less is more' mantra, we'll be reduced to living in small homogenized houses and driving small homogenized cars. All for the sake of working WAY more than we're compensated for and LIVING to work way more than we're compensated for.

This becomes especially 'horror movie scary' when one factors in the virtual INABILITY of most people to unplug from their jobs nowadays, thanks to cell phones, computers and 'working from home.' Why not just build square cubes with a computer and a window to shove food into and make that 'middle class living'?

Am I being overly dramatic? CERTAINLY. But you get the point. These are REAL issues that we are facing now and in the future. And this diminished lifestyle is especially true now that the economy is DOA and our core businesses are depleted.

There is WAY more at stake with GM and Co. going bankrupt under the surface for politicians and the elite than most people realize. And if anyone thinks the Repugs in the senate were worried about a 'viable GM' in the future, they're missing the point. The repubs couldn't care less about the future of GM, especially the southern repubs, because they believe in 'capitalism' and believe that these companies no longer affect the over all economy. The point was to BUST the UAW and severely weaken the Teamsters

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.....uh I'd certainly call the Camry class-leading......it's been leading it's class for, oh, how many years?

the camry is a sad joke. corolla also. unless you kneel to consumer reports.

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This is the elite finally finding a fail proof way to control the masses.

Globalization, and the demand that YOU give up your luxuries while they increase thir wealth 5 times over was only the beginning. The green movement will be the plan that enslaves us all though. Once they get the majority of the population singing the 'less is more' mantra, we'll be reduced to living in small homogenized houses and driving small homogenized cars. All for the sake of working WAY more than we're compensated for and LIVING to work way more than we're compensated for.

This becomes especially 'horror movie scary' when one factors in the virtual INABILITY of most people to unplug from their jobs nowadays, thanks to cell phones, computers and 'working from home.' Why not just build square cubes with a computer and a window to shove food into and make that 'middle class living'?

Am I being overly dramatic? CERTAINLY. But you get the point. These are REAL issues that we are facing now and in the future. And this diminished lifestyle is especially true now that the economy is DOA and our core businesses are depleted.

There is WAY more at stake with GM and Co. going bankrupt under the surface for politicians and the elite than most people realize. And if anyone thinks the Repugs in the senate were worried about a 'viable GM' in the future, they're missing the point. The repubs couldn't care less about the future of GM, especially the southern repubs, because they believe in 'capitalism' and believe that these companies no longer affect the over all economy. The point was to BUST the UAW and severely weaken the Teamsters

So let me go a step further. We are becoming a Matrix world. And we need Capitalism 2.0 and Democracy 2.0 otherwise keeping status quo will just churn the middle class people.

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So let me go a step further. We are becoming a Matrix world. And we need Capitalism 2.0 and Democracy 2.0 otherwise keeping status quo will just churn the middle class people.

I don't know if it'll ever get that bad. But consider the following:

1) The establishment of the WTO was a HUGE blow to the labor movement. The WTO is controlled by the elite and has allowed for the downfall of the american middle class via 'globalization' and free trade. Translation: Business owners can now, instead of having to pay americans a lot of money to work, go to a foreign country and pay people pennies (compared to us) yet STILL have access to sell in the U.S. For example; Nike town employs people for .16/hour. These people work 80 hour weeks and are fired once they reach 25. Did you know that something like 80% of wars are civil wars now. And something like 60% of american police departments have para-military units? Sociology is FILLED with ideas about the police being a tool of the elite to enforce their policies. And I would tend to agree. We lose something like 6 BILLION dollars to white collar crime each year (1 in 3 households is affected by white collar crime) yet you don't see Joe CEO sitting in the jail cell with the teenager that stole from Best Buy, do you?

2) Outsourcing the middle class (right under our noses) has severely weakened the power of the labor movement. The days of the UAW and the like influencing much of anything, are about to be over. It happened with the steel industry, it's happening with autos and I'd expect the Teamsters (mostly truck drivers) to start unraveling soon enough. Outsourcing the middle class has also GREATLY reduced our opportunity for prosperity. Sociologists believe that my generation (gen Y) will be the first generation in american HISTORY that will not enjoy a better standard of living than our parents. Sociologists also believe that education/skills are the only true way to transcend social class. However, the target continues to move (either intentionally or as a product of demand vs. supply) as more people acquire education. In the 60's it was advised that we acquire a high school diploma. Then it became a 4 year degree. Now, anyone who has been in the market for a job recently will know this, employers are actively seeking grad degrees. My GF is in architecture. It's a specialized degree, which means 4 years = BA but you must have 5 years to 'practice' architecture. However, plans are in place to phase out 5th year architecture programs in favor of a 4 year = BA or grad school = practicing architecture mantra.

3) The rise of business conglomerates in the 80's marked the end of good compensation in america. Instead of investing in employees for their ever increasing productivity, our companies sought mergers, acquisitions and higher pay for CEOs. This lead to the 90's where the gap between the social classes really started to widen as employees continued to increase productivity, thus put more money in the pockets of the elite BUT were not adequately compensated. (The ratio of productivity to compensation in this country over the last 30 years is seriously skewed) The U.S. experienced untold wealth, problem is, only the top 5-10% of the population reaped the benefits, in some instances quadrupling their net worth because instead of compensating their employees for productivity increase, they either pocketed the money or bought other businesses.

** So, we've established an 'elite' culture that has global roots and an american LOWER class (READ 2 tier society) that has been crippled from a standpoint of power.

4) The lower class isn't easily scared anymore because they don't EXPECT the prosperity that they once had. (We already see that) So, threatening them with job loss doesn't work. Threatening them with violence doesn't work because 1) desensitization has made us almost immune to it and 2) Culture of violence is everywhere now and is 'status quo' So, how DO you scare the lower class? You tell them that the world is ending, but not through religion, because a lot of them don't believe in religion anymore. No, you use the environment; the world itself.

5) Along comes the green movement which presents a PERFECT opportunity to keep the lower class in line. Al Gore and people like him FLY around in personal jets to spread the terror and make a living off of speaking to live in huge houses. The mantra, just like with the hollywood stars is; "Do as I say, not as I do" (a.k.a. Keep your hands off of my resources --or-- 'right size' your carbon footprint) The EU recently considered legislation that would ALLOW any person born a certain size carbon footprint. It would be a carbon credit system (that could EASILY be manipulated by those in power) where you are alloted a certain amount of carbon points each year, and then have to buy extra points or basically cease to exist if you run out.

6) The great part is that, the elite haven't even had to fire a shot to do this. The constant propaganda about 'live within your carbon footprint' and the weakened lower class has caused a large majority of people to just 'fall in line' In the future, I expect the 'Climate Change' debate to become engrained in our thought process. We will be taught from birth to death, that climate change is a dirty word. Eventually, "the earth will become overcrowded" and you'll start to see MORE government regulation of our everyday lives. California already tried to gain control of it's residents thermostats and CAFE attempts to control what and how we drive. Now that the credit crisis has happened and the average american is upside down financially (i.e. No longer controls a significant part of his/her money) there won't be a THING we can do to combat it because we all know that money talks. With the power to produce gone (i.e. the elites no longer NEED you in order to make money) and the power to purchase gone (i.e. what little influence on business and government that we had left) it'll be easy as pie to force us into this kind of existence. Recently, there was an interesting article (I didn't save it) about how the middle class was suffering because of high energy costs. The 'kicker' was that, instead of worrying about this, businesses were now actively marketing to the upper class. to sustain themselves and abandoning the lower class. Therefore, unless the economy gets REAL bad, the elites now have enough money to carry it. What this does is take the lower class out of the equation entirely. They won't even care if we don't have a good quality of life and if we begin stealing from them, they'll increase the penalty for larceny and increase law enforcement as a method of control, because that is much easier than fixing the lower class.

Want proof that the elite have the upper hand at all costs? Look no further than the $700 billion bail out that Congress gave to the elites without even ASKING the voters. These bankers, they don't NEED our money. But they wanted it and they control the game (Washington, the world, labor) so they got it. Those same people DON'T WANT GM & Co. to survive, because GM & Co. by harboring and fueling the UAW are one of the last threats to their power. These same people are the ones that constantly chastise the union and "advise" the transplants not to employ the union. And THAT is why I made the topic about the UAW sstepping up to acquire GM, at all costs. GM is the last of it's kind, a throwback to the way america USED to be (which is probably one reason why everyone hates it) When it is completely gone, so then will be that style of life.

Now, before anyone thinks I've finally flipped, this is all based in theory. But, it's also all VERY REAL.

And, RE: the green movement. I don't think it takes a communist-like 'movement' to teach people to preserve the environment. I hate the green movement, yet I still take measures to save the environment. But what you will begin to see is this 'movement' become commercialized into an industry that will eventually turn on itself (the people who, through good intention, promoted it) As much as I am hopeful for Obama, his plan for the presidency outlines a HUGE commercialization of the green movement to 'create jobs' (a.k.a. get votes)

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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:scared: Thanks, FOG, now I won't be able to sleep tonight.

You forgot the military-industrial complex and the law enforcement industry, two other prevailing powers that fight for ascension and $$$.

It could be worse, FOG: you could live in Canada where you have to put up with the poverty industry and an actual national party called the Green Party. <_<

Edited by CARBIZ

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let's hope they can get enough profit from fits.

the new accord sucks and the new pilot goes beyond sucking. the new pilot is up there with my aztek in terms of ugly.

I am seriously looking at real estate on the bus line....I swear if cars get any uglier....

The new Pilot is beyond words ugly...

Chris :iroc-dragster:

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:scared: Thanks, FOG, now I won't be able to sleep tonight.

You forgot the military-industrial complex and the law enforcement industry, two other prevailing powers that fight for ascension and $$$.

It could be worse, FOG: you could live in Canada where you have to put up with the poverty industry and an actual national party called the Green Party. <_<

I'll trade you your one green party for two of ours, actually....you should feel special...

Chris

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There is WAY more at stake with GM and Co. going bankrupt under the surface for politicians and the elite than most people realize. And if anyone thinks the Repugs in the senate were worried about a 'viable GM' in the future, they're missing the point. The repubs couldn't care less about the future of GM, especially the southern repubs, because they believe in 'capitalism' and believe that these companies no longer affect the over all economy. The point was to BUST the UAW and severely weaken the Teamsters

+1 on getting rid of the UAW and teamsters as a goal of certain elected groups...

Chris :iroc-dragster:

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:scared: Thanks, FOG, now I won't be able to sleep tonight.

You forgot the military-industrial complex and the law enforcement industry, two other prevailing powers that fight for ascension and $$$.

Sounds like a vast right wing conspiracy. Another group I don't trust is the religious right that dominate the politics and culture of the red states. I've long suspected the evangelicals are arming to try and overthrow the government and install a theocracy. And the military-industrial complex (Blackwater, for example--has ties to the Family Research Council, an dangerous evangelical organization) is tied into them.

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I don't know if I believe in conspiracies on a scale this big, but I certainly believe that certain things happen a certain way for a reason. And I also think that certain people/groups (not necessarily always the same group either) use and exploit opportunities to gain power.

Is it a giant conspiracy? Probably not. Is it a chain reaction of events that has been influenced along the way by certain factions attempting to advance themselves? Absolutely.

Same thing with the media and it's hatred of domestics... Is it a conspiracy to kill Detroit? Not for the most part (Some journalists have that goal IMO) But I think it is years of 'conditioning' (mostly subconscious) to be negative about Detroit. So, essentially, a lot of journalists, through a LEARNED negativity, automatically critique Detroit a lot harsher and have predisposed notions about the quality of their products and services.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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Giant conspiracies like these to work in unison will require too much coordination, patience, skill, and farsightedness which none of these people have.

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These are not necessarily conspiracies. They are the product of corruption and laziness. For example, the modern convention is that global warming is going to destroy humanity; just like a generation earlier it was famine or pollution or whatever other cause du jour the media could come up with the sell papers.

Do you think half the nitwits that are writing in the press about the car industry or about the actual cars know anything about them? Do you think most of these folks are capable of a single original thought? I venture to say that in many cases, these hacks get their ideas from reading other like-minded hacks and then expound upon their opinons as thought its their own.

That certainly explains the dolts at Consumers Reports anyway.

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