YTD The G8 is outselling the Vibe

[Robert Hall]

Corolla-8%

Matrix-5%

Yaris-10%

Avalon-26%

Camry-9%

Tacoma-5%

Tundra-6%

Those are mid-year 2008 numbers, rounded up to the nearest whole.

Ah, just the Avalon is relatively high...no where near GM numbers, though--the GP was 77% at one point, and isn't the current Impala 60% or so?

[Satty]

Ah, just the Avalon is relatively high...no where near GM numbers, though--the GP was 77% at one point, and isn't the current Impala 60% or so?

The ugly numbers (.pdf)

[Camino LS6]

how is buick a better save than pontiac. china aside, what equity does it have here making it worthy of the investment GM is going to put into it? I don't want a one line answer like Enclave proves buick still has life in them. I want credible evidence, and thorough plans and details of forecasts for the future. personally, I can see evidence both ways, which leaves it up to product execution in an important segment, and redefining the brand with better focus.....GM has proven inadequate at this.

The answer is, it isn't.

And it never will be.

[gm4life]

No one forced anyone out of a GM cars but GM. Lack of product that the consumer wanted and the lack of quality in the past burned too many people. Todays consumer is not a loyal American buing American products. He wants the best car for the money and after getting Burned by the big three he found what he wanted in an import car. Welcome to world market 101.

I do find that interesting, and GM will force even MORE people out of their cars without a Pontiac. Thanks for helping make my point. As for the rest of your comment I have to agree to some extent. They are paying for mistakes 20-30 years ago, and GM's new products like G8, Enclave, Malibu, Silverado and CTS all are very good quality products and competitive if not close to class leading in there segments. Think about some of the awards they have won...

[Camino LS6]

The thing no one is considering here is that without Pontiac, Buick and GMC have no reason to live.

The whole concept of BPG will be tossed out along with the Arrowhead.

The entire strategy of killing Pontiac is fataly flawed.

[gm4life]

The thing no one is considering here is that without Pontiac, Buick and GMC have no reason to live.

The whole concept of BPG will be tossed out along with the Arrowhead.

The entire strategy of killing Pontiac is fataly flawed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Your point is that its ok for some cars to fail to meet GM's expectations, but not others. The best small car market ever? Possibly, but the Astra was priced against the Cooper and Rabbit, problem is that the Astra is no Cooper and no Rabbit. And nobody knows it exists, GM never bothered advertising it. That makes it hard to sell 40,000 cars. The G8 gets some advertising, but sales didn't pick up until 11% of the MSRP was put back on the hood. Its not the runaway success you people are making it out to be.

I'm not in a position to argue whether or not the G8 is a sales success at it's current rate. If GM has a favorable exchange rate and is making money on every car, as some say, then it IS a sales success. If the exchange rate is bad and if GM isn't making money, then no... It certainly isn't a sales success.

But I'm talking about something much deeper (and arguably more important) than sales numbers. I said in Camino's thread that he was making sense about the car conveying what Pontiac stands for and connecting with the consumer. THAT is the successful part. The fact that the car is showing significant numbers in this environment is just icing on the cake.

IF Pontiac is to stick around as a niche brand, this kind of loyalty is a REQUIREMENT. If they do not have products that connect like the G8 has, they'll be dead in 3 years. This is also a lesson that the rest of GM would be SMART to learn. The days of people looking at domestics as a default option (NOTE: I said OPTION, not even purchase) are over. All of the bad laundry has been aired and the situation is far too complicated/political now.

GM better start convincing people to buy their cars, and they better start doing it fast.

FWIW, I agree with a lot of your points on the Astra. It's no secret that I think GM did a horrible thing to Saturn. And I think it IS significant that the G8 didn't really start to show signs of life until 1) It was actually marketed at the level it should be marketed at and 2) Money was put on the hood. This shows that 1) The message of what Pontiac is has NOT been reaching the consumer and 2) It shows what I've discussed before, that GM cannot sell Pontiacs for high enough prices to get the level of ROI that they need to justify EXCELLENT products for the division. That is why Pontiac needs to either be on a volume platform with Chevrolet (Alpha) or shared with another global entity (Holden/Vauxhall)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM is not becoming Toyota.

Nope... They'll fail before they get to that point. (They're trying hard, but the consumer is too smart for that)

G5 is an example of what kind of funding Pontiac had when GM has some money now they have less. What do you think your going to get.

G5 is an example of GM being ran into the ground by dealers and laziness on the part of management.

Pontiac would need to be sold world wide. Does Pontiac have the product to make it a world brand as the rest of GM is becoming? Could would should is not going to cut it and with little money to build these cars Pontiac is DOA. Do you see any other country out their lining up to buy a G5 or 6 as they are since your not going to revamp the entire line in less than 10 years.

1) Pontiac should technically be global, in the sense that Laneve said that Pontiac/GMC/Buick now operates as ONE division in North America. There is NO reason WHAT-SO-EVER that Pontiac cannot have a highly focused line based on 1) select Holden and Opel products (i.e. the commodore, the GT replacement and a Delta or Gamma) or 2) sheet metal change on an Alpha car that is not offered here under any other brand. 3) Pontiac couldn't be established as a semi-global version of HSV or OPC.

[daves87rs]

Those cars qualify as GM's junk? Wow... That's a pretty gross generalization.

As for what the Astra had going for it... Umm... The best small car market in the history of car sales, you'd think, might help them move at least 50,000 units.

The case of the G8 isn't meaningless in the grand scheme of things because it illustrates what potential a supposedly "dead" GM division has when it's parent company actually does something right for once. (I just wish the same potential could've been seen in Saturn, because it was definitely there.)

My point is as old and tired as Levi jeans. Until GM learns how to manage its divisions correctly and get the product right, we will not see the company recover.

They must get the basics right before they even begin to think about selling volume and subsequent sales results. The G8 has all of the basics right. It's an excellent product that CONVEYS the right thing for the image that the brand/public promotes/perceives. That's why Saturn can't sell an Outlook and Buick won't be able to sell a sport tuned Alpha. People do NOT perceive the brand in that fashion and unless GM has TONS of marketing money, it'll be like pissing in the wind.

You got it.

I'd bet my account that they go nuts with the Volt, and just about forget about the Cruze..oh, and the Malibu, now that it might be a few years old.

Sometimes I wish I worked for GM's Brand management-there would be quite a bit of pimp smacking going on.....

If P&G managed their brands like this, we might have lost Tide with bleach...and the tide stick.....

Edited March 23, 2009 by daves87rs

[daves87rs]

The thing no one is considering here is that without Pontiac, Buick and GMC have no reason to live.

The whole concept of BPG will be tossed out along with the Arrowhead.

The entire strategy of killing Pontiac is fataly flawed.

X 2

You can' t just keep changing plans over and over...and over...

[daves87rs]

And as far as the Vibe-How can anyone be suprised?

It's a 90s jelly bean (j body) Mazda 3 wannabe blob with small wheels...

And drives like like it too...

[hyperv6]

I do find that interesting, and GM will force even MORE people out of their cars without a Pontiac. Thanks for helping make my point. As for the rest of your comment I have to agree to some extent. They are paying for mistakes 20-30 years ago, and GM's new products like G8, Enclave, Malibu, Silverado and CTS all are very good quality products and competitive if not close to class leading in there segments. Think about some of the awards they have won...

What point?

Most of the recent loyal Pontiac people buy GM anyway and the most of the rest left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Most of the Pontiac owners that have moved on have gone to the Malibu and many of the cars you pointed out

I think you will find most of the people buying a G5 or 6 would move to a Chevy the Chevy version is cheaper or better and they were more GM loyal vs anything else. Also the G8 is getting sold to people that would interest people in a CTS but find the G8 is a great buy at the price it is.

Funny the many names you point out only one is a Pontiac and the only real one worth owning.

The bottom line is few people from Pontiac are Toyota and Honda fans. There so few of them in the first place are they worth the investment with little hope of market share recovery?

How much would GM have to invest in Pontiac to make them right? A lot and how good are their chances to bring back what has already been lost. Small. Kind of like fixing up that old junker and your putting in more money in than a new car payment. Not too smart.

Thanks for making my point.

[CaddyXLR-V]

What point?

Most of the recent loyal Pontiac people buy GM anyway and the most of the rest left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Most of the Pontiac owners that have moved on have gone to the Malibu and many of the cars you pointed out

I think you will find most of the people buying a G5 or 6 would move to a Chevy the Chevy version is cheaper or better and they were more GM loyal vs anything else. Also the G8 is getting sold to people that would interest people in a CTS but find the G8 is a great buy at the price it is.

Funny the many names you point out only one is a Pontiac and the only real one worth owning.

The bottom line is few people from Pontiac are Toyota and Honda fans. There so few of them in the first place are they worth the investment with little hope of market share recovery?

How much would GM have to invest in Pontiac to make them right? A lot and how good are their chances to bring back what has already been lost. Small. Kind of like fixing up that old junker and your putting in more money in than a new car payment. Not too smart.

Thanks for making my point.

You're right. Few Pontiac fans are Honda or Toyota fans. They would go to Nissan, Mazda, or VW, but not Honda or Toyota. I know That's where I would go.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What point?

Most of the recent loyal Pontiac people buy GM anyway and the most of the rest left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Most of the Pontiac owners that have moved on have gone to the Malibu and many of the cars you pointed out

I think you will find most of the people buying a G5 or 6 would move to a Chevy the Chevy version is cheaper or better and they were more GM loyal vs anything else. Also the G8 is getting sold to people that would interest people in a CTS but find the G8 is a great buy at the price it is.

Funny the many names you point out only one is a Pontiac and the only real one worth owning.

The bottom line is few people from Pontiac are Toyota and Honda fans. There so few of them in the first place are they worth the investment with little hope of market share recovery?

How much would GM have to invest in Pontiac to make them right? A lot and how good are their chances to bring back what has already been lost. Small. Kind of like fixing up that old junker and your putting in more money in than a new car payment. Not too smart.

Thanks for making my point.

At what point does this defeatist attitude end?

1999: "Well, what hope is there that Oldsmobile will recover?" (kill Olds)

2007: "Well, what hope is there that Saturn will ever be viable?" (cut off Saturn)

2009: "Well, what hope is there that Pontiac will ever be rebuilt?" (kill Pontiac)

See a pattern? In order to succeed in business, you must first make investments and then WAIT through tough times. GM refuses to wait on anything and as a result, they're killing what equity and potential they have left.

Here is my prediction:

2011: "Will Buick ever be sold in mass quantities?" (kill Buick)

2012: "Why is GMC suddenly not selling any vehicles? Do we have any hope of having the balls to actually separate the identity of the division from Chevrolet? Is it needed?" (kill GMC)

2015: "Why do we need Cadillac when we can sell Chevrolets to the masses, and GM being such a poor company (remember the culture of defeat) can never hope to compete in the global luxury ranks anyway?" (kill Cadillac)

2025: From outside of the company, "Is Chevrolet even viable anymore?" (Chevrolet is liquidated)

This culture of cutting to prosperity has been proven as a BAD business model many times over. You don't just CUT assets for the sake of having smaller company UNLESS you want to become more focused and smaller. GM, given the market and given it's debt CANNOT afford to become more focused (as far as reach) and smaller.

GM will fail if it continues this nonsense.

[daves87rs]

At what point does this defeatist attitude end?

1999: "Well, what hope is there that Oldsmobile will recover?" (kill Olds)

2007: "Well, what hope is there that Saturn will ever be viable?" (cut off Saturn)

2009: "Well, what hope is there that Pontiac will ever be rebuilt?" (kill Pontiac)

See a pattern? In order to succeed in business, you must first make investments and then WAIT through tough times. GM refuses to wait on anything and as a result, they're killing what equity and potential they have left.

Here is my prediction:

2011: "Will Buick ever be sold in mass quantities?" (kill Buick)

2012: "Why is GMC suddenly not selling any vehicles? Do we have any hope of having the balls to actually separate the identity of the division from Chevrolet? Is it needed?" (kill GMC)

2015: "Why do we need Cadillac when we can sell Chevrolets to the masses, and GM being such a poor company (remember the culture of defeat) can never hope to compete in the global luxury ranks anyway?" (kill Cadillac)

2025: From outside of the company, "Is Chevrolet even viable anymore?" (Chevrolet is liquidated)

This culture of cutting to prosperity has been proven as a BAD business model many times over. You don't just CUT assets for the sake of having smaller company UNLESS you want to become more focused and smaller. GM, given the market and given it's debt CANNOT afford to become more focused (as far as reach) and smaller.

GM will fail if it continues this nonsense.

That's a bit of hoping there...I don't even see that it would be that long....

[David]

SWEET, I will think Positive VIBES that someone in GM will wake up to this and realize where money making potential is. Surely not in the ugly Vibe.

[hyperv6]

At what point does this defeatist attitude end?

1999: "Well, what hope is there that Oldsmobile will recover?" (kill Olds)

2007: "Well, what hope is there that Saturn will ever be viable?" (cut off Saturn)

2009: "Well, what hope is there that Pontiac will ever be rebuilt?" (kill Pontiac)

See a pattern? In order to succeed in business, you must first make investments and then WAIT through tough times. GM refuses to wait on anything and as a result, they're killing what equity and potential they have left.

Here is my prediction:

2011: "Will Buick ever be sold in mass quantities?" (kill Buick)

2012: "Why is GMC suddenly not selling any vehicles? Do we have any hope of having the balls to actually separate the identity of the division from Chevrolet? Is it needed?" (kill GMC)

2015: "Why do we need Cadillac when we can sell Chevrolets to the masses, and GM being such a poor company (remember the culture of defeat) can never hope to compete in the global luxury ranks anyway?" (kill Cadillac)

2025: From outside of the company, "Is Chevrolet even viable anymore?" (Chevrolet is liquidated)

This culture of cutting to prosperity has been proven as a BAD business model many times over. You don't just CUT assets for the sake of having smaller company UNLESS you want to become more focused and smaller. GM, given the market and given it's debt CANNOT afford to become more focused (as far as reach) and smaller.

GM will fail if it continues this nonsense.

You can snow the public for many years but when the market became global and more compititon arrived you can Bull 4hit them anymore with 4-5 different cars called Cutlass.

As for Pontiac and Saturn they had possibilities till the lack of funding for 20+ years has taken a toll. Lutz was correct to say they were damaged brands.

GMC is still around as it makes money as does Buick does in China. This makes Buick a viable risk for this country as if it fails they will sell on in China. If you pump money into Pontiac and it fails you are just out all that money with no chance to recover it. GMC will be around as long as Buick and if they fail GMC will follow.

Caddy and Chevy is all GM needs in NA right now. If you have only enough money to develope 20-30 great cars why produce 70 half a$$ cars. Without proper funding to cover a large corperate line it would be foolish to spead the money that thin.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, even Ford and Chrysler are two car division for the most part with only a stray jeep and merc in the mix.

GM no longewr has to make a car for ever demograhic there is because they just can't afford it anylonger.

The bottom line is GM will be around but a changed company. It will be painful to watch but it has to be done. My father had to lose his lower right leg and it pained me to see that happen but thank God they did as I still have him aound and he is still very a important part of my life.

Even if something horrible would happen to GM NA I could see them simply take cars like Chevy and Caddy and become a import company. GM of China could take over Chevy and start over. The names have too much positive equity yet and if offered in a good quality and well priced people will buy them.

I would not like to see them imported but as the general American public goes it seems not to matter anymore as they have moved away form most American Autos anyway.

[Satty]

The most recent fleet fleet numbers on the web (mid-year 2008) put all Pontiac models combined at 36% fleet.

The thing no one is considering here is that without Pontiac, Buick and GMC have no reason to live.

Using the same page I used to get Pontiac's fleet number at 36%, I get Buick at 14% and GMC at 12.5%. Thats GMC including the Savana. Using YTD numbers from GM's December sales report, Pontiac sold 267,348 vehicles in 2008 while Buick sold 137,197 and GMC sold 376,996, all of which were down about 25% from 2007.

Now if we take fleet into account, Pontiac (6 vehicle lineup) had 171,102 retail sales while Buick (3 vehicle lineup) had 117,989 and GMC (6 vehicle lineup) had 376,121.

I think your statement is wrong.

[Camino LS6]

Using the same page I used to get Pontiac's fleet number at 36%, I get Buick at 14% and GMC at 12.5%. Thats GMC including the Savana. Using YTD numbers from GM's December sales report, Pontiac sold 267,348 vehicles in 2008 while Buick sold 137,197 and GMC sold 376,996, all of which were down about 25% from 2007.

Now if we take fleet into account, Pontiac (6 vehicle lineup) had 171,102 retail sales while Buick (3 vehicle lineup) had 117,989 and GMC (6 vehicle lineup) had 376,121.

I think your statement is wrong.

Think what you like, but Buick is the most redundant brand at GM right now, unless you look at GMC.

It will take about five minutes after Pontiac's funeral for the calls to kill the rest of the channel to surface.

Mark my words on this, if Pontiac dies, Buick and GMC will soon follow.

[Satty]

How can Buick be the most redundant brand when the G5, G6* and Torrent are literally re-grilled Chevys that overlap in price? The Vibe and G8 are the only cars not sold in the U.S. by another GM brand. Buick may only have 3 offerings, but they're genuinely different from what the rest of GM is selling.

*Ok, the G6 is more of a rebadged Saturn than Chevy, but still, its nothing unique.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Satty

[Camino LS6]

How can Buick be the most redundant brand when the G5, G6* and Torrent are literally re-grilled Chevys that overlap in price? The Vibe and G8 are the only cars not sold in the U.S. by another GM brand. Buick may only have 3 offerings, but they're genuinely different from what the rest of GM is selling.

*Ok, the G6 is more of a rebadged Saturn than Chevy, but still, its nothing unique.

Don't forget:

G8 = unique in NA

G6 = First to market, so it isn't the rebadge

Solstice = see above

Vibe = unique among GM brands

Buick right now is just two sedans that can't decide if they are supposed to steal sales from Chevy or Caddy, and a crossover that's shared six ways from Sunday.

I could see an interim step after Buick becomes China-only of pairing GMC with Caddy until some genius decides they can save some pennies by eliminating GMC and finally pairing Caddy with Chevy.

If Pontiac goes, you will see something like this happen.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Using the same page I used to get Pontiac's fleet number at 36%, I get Buick at 14% and GMC at 12.5%. Thats GMC including the Savana. Using YTD numbers from GM's December sales report, Pontiac sold 267,348 vehicles in 2008 while Buick sold 137,197 and GMC sold 376,996, all of which were down about 25% from 2007.

Now if we take fleet into account, Pontiac (6 vehicle lineup) had 171,102 retail sales while Buick (3 vehicle lineup) had 117,989 and GMC (6 vehicle lineup) had 376,121.

I think your statement is wrong.

G6 is older than anything in Buicks or GMCs lineup. G5 is a joke. Solstice, is obviously low volume. G8 is doing good, and wasn't meant to see 100k a year. The Vibe is a hatch, in a country that has no love for hatches. Torrent is on it's way out, and is another joke rebadge.

Buicks average age is also up in the 60s while Pontiacs is in the low 50s I believe. If people stop buying Buicks now, big deal, thats probably that last car they will own in their lifetime anyway. Without Pontiac, it is sending away people like me, 24 years old, that still have decades of car buying left ahead of me.

[Satty]

Buicks have higher base prices than Pontiacs and smaller rebates, therefore the average Buick is going to sell for more than the average Pontiac and for a higher profit.

[Camino LS6]

More importantly, it tosses the whole concept of BPG before it had a chance to actually prove itself. Together, the three brands make a compelling case. As only two, or one, not so much.

BPG is a good concept which leaves GM with three sales channels (essentially three brands). Small, medium, and large, or good, better, best - take your pick.

Giving up that structure would be a mistake.

Just like not implementing/promoting it is today.

[Satty]

So where is the downside of making Pontiac an extreme niche brand and getting rid of the useless crap? Why bother with the G5, G6, Vibe or Torrent? Dump 'em.

[Camino LS6]

So where is the downside of making Pontiac an extreme niche brand and getting rid of the useless crap? Why bother with the G5, G6, Vibe or Torrent? Dump 'em.

No downside there.

With that part of things I have no argument.

Those are not Pontiacs.

But you have to add Alpha to make it work.

[CaddyXLR-V]

So where is the downside of making Pontiac an extreme niche brand and getting rid of the useless crap? Why bother with the G5, G6, Vibe or Torrent? Dump 'em.

Because that's not what GM is going to do. Pontiac is going to be killed outright. Alpha should go to Pontiac not Buick. G8 is done after this generation. Solstice, likely done also. All the cars Pontiac should be keeping, are getting killed along with the useless ones. I could care less if the G6 Vibe Torrent and G5 die. But don't take away the cars that should be Pontiacs. I would actually be happy if Pontiac consisted of the G6 on Alpha, the G8 on Zeta and the Solstice. That would build up Pontiacs image of performance, and would set the brand up perfectly for the future.

[Satty]

How would a 2-deep Pontiac lineup anchor BPG? If you're willing to pare Pontiac down to just the G8 and Solstice, which would at best garner 45,000 sales, why out the effort into it instead of building up the other brands? Buick has its own performance history which GM abandoned for the sake of SS Chevys and "exciting" Pontiacs so an Alpha Buick could sell just the same as an Alpha Pontiac.

[Camino LS6]

How would a 2-deep Pontiac lineup anchor BPG? If you're willing to pare Pontiac down to just the G8 and Solstice, which would at best garner 45,000 sales, why out the effort into it instead of building up the other brands? Buick has its own performance history which GM abandoned for the sake of SS Chevys and "exciting" Pontiacs so an Alpha Buick could sell just the same as an Alpha Pontiac.

No way, Buick performance cars were always an anomaly in the lineup. Alpha will fail at Buick.

Not two deep, BTW, but three deep with variants.

G8 w/variants

G6 on Alpha w/ variants

Soltice w/ variants

As a niche brand that lineup is perfect. For volume another approach would be needed.

[gm4life]

I could support a Pontiac with only three or four models. G6, G8, Solstice and a possible Firebird/Trans Am via Camaro. The Firebird/Trans Am would be true to history at least.

[gm4life]

No way, Buick performance cars were always an anomaly in the lineup. Alpha will fail at Buick.

Not two deep, BTW, but three deep with variants.

G8 w/variants

G6 on Alpha w/ variants

Soltice w/ variants

As a niche brand that lineup is perfect. For volume another approach would be needed.

Great idea, a side not do you think a Alpha G6 would sell well Camino?

[Satty]

Performance cars have been just as much of an anomaly at Pontiac as well. If you dont believe me, check the Excitement thread.

[Camino LS6]

Performance cars have been just as much of an anomaly at Pontiac as well. If you dont believe me, check the Excitement thread.

Just plain wrong.

That thread just points out how wrong some cars were for the Arrowhead - many would have been right at home at Buick though.

[Camino LS6]

Great idea, a side not do you think a Alpha G6 would sell well Camino?

Yes.

Extremely well, in fact.

[daves87rs]

I think it will depend of what the government demands...that, my friends-is the biggest factor of all.

I don't think even PCS will be able to doubt that....

It might be a mess.

[daves87rs]

Yes.

Extremely well, in fact.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

How can Buick be the most redundant brand when the G5, G6* and Torrent are literally re-grilled Chevys that overlap in price? The Vibe and G8 are the only cars not sold in the U.S. by another GM brand. Buick may only have 3 offerings, but they're genuinely different from what the rest of GM is selling.

*Ok, the G6 is more of a rebadged Saturn than Chevy, but still, its nothing unique.

The Buicks are genuinely different?!?!

You mean; the Lucerne isn't the same thing as a DTS... The Enclave isn't the same thing as a Traverse, Outlook and Acadia -- that's in the same showroom. The Lacrosse isn't the same thing as an Impala.

Not to mention, like GM's brilliance with Chevrolet (Malibu & Impala) and Pontiac until recently (GP & G6) the two sedans that Buick has COMPETE with each other.

Not that I disagree with the differentation of most of those models... I'm just playing devil's advocate.

More importantly, it tosses the whole concept of BPG before it had a chance to actually prove itself. Together, the three brands make a compelling case. As only two, or one, not so much.

BPG is a good concept which leaves GM with three sales channels (essentially three brands). Small, medium, and large, or good, better, best - take your pick.

Typical GM bull$h!....

Oh, wait, where have I heard this before?!?! **cough** Oldsmobile **cough**........ **cough** Saturn **cough**......... **cough** Saab **cough**............ **cough** most of GM's products that the company has gotten RIGHT in the past 15 years **cough**

(same $h!; different day)

IMO, as long as alpha can accomodate a V8, Pontiac doesn't even need the G8.

My ideal niche Pontiac line would be 1) either a hot rodded Vibe or Delta product 2) A small alpha line and 3) A Solstice coupe & convertible line... With the wild card being something Gamma sized, if the market demands it.

Edited March 25, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[CaddyXLR-V]

Luxury cars have been just as much of an anomaly at Cadillac as well. If you dont believe me, check out the Cimmaron.

Your logic applied towards Cadillac.

[ponchoman49]

The Vibe looks like ass so this is no surprise. It should go right back where it came from.