So...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

According to GMI the GM board apparently made the decision to shut Pontiac down by 2015 a few years ago... One of the biggest critics of that decision was Rick Wagoner.

Did I miss something?!?!

1) Can the board make these kinds of decisions? 2) What is the purpose of making a decision like that in the first place? Pontiac is/was a volume division which could've/does have a lot of life left *IF* the appropriate investment is made. (Then again, so did Oldsmobile, Saturn and Hummer) 3) If this were the case, then why the continued investment in the G8 and Solstice variants & 4) Why did Bob Lutz even care about Pontiac at this point, if it were to be shut down all along?

Maybe this is why our friend PCS has been so adamant about the closure of Pontiac and his company having "friends in high places" (although I doubt the attempted closure, or closure of Pontiac had anything to do with GME)

Not to mention, I question how much power the board has on issues such as this since they were apparently the ones who were to be Saabs knight in shining armor. (We all see how far that got)

** While I highly DOUBT the sale of Buick (given the source) could the article indeed point a way for Pontiac to return? (If Buick is sold or GMC is killed by the greenies in Washington)

Thoughts?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes it can, you do know all car programs have to be approved by the Board?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

According to GMI the GM board apparently made the decision to shut Pontiac down by 2015 a few years ago... One of the biggest critics of that decision was Rick Wagoner.

Did I miss something?!?!

1) Can the board make these kinds of decisions?

The Board is the most powerful part of any company. They have the power to appoint, remove, and compensate management. Their decision is law in the company. In the old days the Board typically consisted of many of management from the company, however with the passing of SOX a significant amount of the board has to be of "outside" interests in the company.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[daves87rs]

:rotflmao:

You're got to be kidding, right?

[Robert Hall]

According to GMI the GM board apparently made the decision to shut Pontiac down by 2015 a few years ago... One of the biggest critics of that decision was Rick Wagoner.

Did I miss something?!?!

1) Can the board make these kinds of decisions? Thoughts?

Umm, who else but the board would have the authority to make such decisions? It certainly seems like something they would have power to do....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I figured product planners had the ultimate power.

As in; they submit a plan to the board (based on market research) and the board either approves or denies the plan. I did not think the board could single-handedly make decisions like this. (As in, no one else was included in the decision)

And, if this is true, why on earth would they continue to invest in the division until 2015? Seems like a waste of resources to me. (I know about the cost to buy out dealers, but surely it isn't more costly than investing in new product for the division for an additional 10 years?!)

Not to mention, that product that came during the additional 10 years, if executed correctly, could've done WONDERS for said division and it's image.

Again... The lack of leadership ability and COMMON SENSE of General Motors just astounds me... *shakes head* Talk about squandering away an empire.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I figured product planners had the ultimate power.

As in; they submit a plan to the board (based on market research) and the board either approves or denies the plan. I did not think the board could single-handedly make decisions like this. (As in, no one else was included in the decision)

And, if this is true, why on earth would they continue to invest in the division until 2015? Seems like a waste of resources to me. (I know about the cost to buy out dealers, but surely it isn't more costly than investing in new product for the division for an additional 10 years?!)

Not to mention, that product that came during the additional 10 years, if executed correctly, could've done WONDERS for said division and it's image.

Again... The lack of leadership ability and COMMON SENSE of General Motors just astounds me... *shakes head* Talk about squandering away an empire.

I told you it was just a matter of time, or timing ...

[fightingbee]

Yes it can, you do know all car programs have to be approved by the Board?

No wonder GM is in the shape it is. The car programs are decided by the international geezer club.

Needless to say I vote 'NO' to nearly all these clowns every year.

[Oracle of Delphi]

No wonder GM is in the shape it is. The car programs are decided by the international geezer club.

Needless to say I vote 'NO' to nearly all these clowns every year.

You're pissing in the wind ...

[hyperv6]

I figured product planners had the ultimate power.

As in; they submit a plan to the board (based on market research) and the board either approves or denies the plan. I did not think the board could single-handedly make decisions like this. (As in, no one else was included in the decision)

And, if this is true, why on earth would they continue to invest in the division until 2015? Seems like a waste of resources to me. (I know about the cost to buy out dealers, but surely it isn't more costly than investing in new product for the division for an additional 10 years?!)

Not to mention, that product that came during the additional 10 years, if executed correctly, could've done WONDERS for said division and it's image.

Again... The lack of leadership ability and COMMON SENSE of General Motors just astounds me... *shakes head* Talk about squandering away an empire.

It sure was not RW who stopped Lutz on some of his product plans. The board was also the one who had to be sold on the Volt. They were affraid of it and Lutz and RW had to sell them on the car because GM was so far behind the Prius already. They had to convince them they had to move to the next step beuond the Prius.

Invest in Pontiac. The Solstice was the last real investment in Pontiac they did. The Holden is just a rebadge, the G6 is a light refresh and the Vibe is a Toyotas rebadge. GM has put little into Pointiac even in promotion. They did not even show at the Pontiac nationals this year the largest Pontiac race and car show in the country.

I have been saying all along GM is killing Pontiac as the cars finish their life cycles. The niche thing was just a way to slowly starve the stand alone Pontiac dealers out with the remaining years of the Solstice and G8.

GM here locally is already making back room moves to close dealers and give others new brands. There is a move here to close a Chevy Buick store and give the Buick dealer to the new Pontiac GMC store. The Chevy dealer will fade away as there is one only 8 miles away aready.

Another Pontiac store in Akron has just bought a large Chevy dealer. They bought the Pontiac store a couple years before Olds shut down. They knew it was coming just as they have seen with Pontiac and moving to Chevy today.

This is part of the old GM system that Rick could not change and it needs addressed.

As I have said The way GM has done buisness for years has caught up to them. The ways of waste and slow responce can can no longer be absorbed.

With the longer the Economy is down the more GM will have to cut. At worse they will be Chevy and Caddy. If needed Buick can be left to run in China and be reintroduced later. Buick is not unlike Holden and Opel and the N/A operation is not the only option to their future as it is with Pontiac.

Right now their is just no money, interest or time at GM to save Pontiac anymore.

GM will need all they have to make Chevy and Caddy into what they need to be.

Too many here wish for Turbo AWD GMC pickup revivals and large RWD sedans to return. GM right now needs to make the Curze the best damn car they can. Not as good as Honda and Toyota but better. They need to make Chevys that are AFFORDABLE, high quality, attractive and did I say AFFORDABLE. In tight economic times people shop by monthly payments and long waranties not HP ratings and 1/4 mile times.

Hynundia is not selling well just because of the backing if you lose your job. Hyundia is selling becasuse they are gving the most car for the money. VALUE is the key word.

Make it good looking, make it relaible and make it affordable and they will come to you.

GM can not just target Honda and Toyota as the level to achieve they need to aim higher and under price them.

Where I work we are the Walmart of the our industry. We are everything right or wrong with the market. Many buy form us because they love us and many buy from us even though they hate us and why? Because we give them value and the cheapest price in town on the best names in the industry.

Even in these hard economic times we are still doing well selling products people could eaisily live without. In fact we even are highering and added overtime.

[fightingbee]

You're pissing in the wind ...

Tell me about it. Just waiting now to see if they plan to wipe out what little value the stock has left.

[Camino LS6]

Wait a minute... isn't the board getting booted out at Obama's request?

If these ass clowns decided to kill Pontiac in 2015, and made the decision several years ago, they obviously need to be dumped.

It amazes me that such power could be given to complete idiots.

[FloydHendershot]

Wait a minute... isn't the board getting booted out at Obama's request?

If these ass clowns decided to kill Pontiac in 2015, and made the decision several years ago, they obviously need to be dumped.

It amazes me that such power could be given to complete idiots.

Almost two years ago to the day I wrote the following and if this is true am saddened to learn they would agree to keep Pontiac but dangling by the proverbial string.

Apr 14 2007, 10:52 PM

Post #108

I honestly think they were ready to shut Pontiac down until someone stepped in.

The Solstice and the helping hand from Holden will be the only thing keeping them from pulling the plug.

At that time I thought an intervention had support and would be an honest attempt to revive the brand. I agree that it was necessary to keep a timetable, which was clearly truncated after the economic floor dropped. The string that dangled could not hold them up and is perhaps irreparably frayed at this point with the ground fast approaching.

At this time I can only wonder if they had not just 'yessed' whomever and provided a lineup worthy of the Pontiac nameplate what would have happened.

I can only presume there was a "Clash of the Titans" up top and in the end little was accomplished.

What upsets me the most is half heartedly deciding to keep them around, if of course this story holds water. The Holdens could have just as easily been folded into a Buick lineup and saved everyone a lot of time, anger, and grief. After Olds-- Pontiac and Buick to me are neck and neck. A new generation of GSX' or GN's in the stable would suit me just fine.

Maybe there is too much brand confusion because there was too much board confusion.

If even a glimmer of truth to this they should have their resignations signed and TBD.

[Camino LS6]

Maybe there is too much brand confusion because there was too much board confusion.

That happens when the "highest authority" understands little or nothing about automobiles.

[ShadowDog]

No wonder GM is in the shape it is. The car programs are decided by the international geezer club.

Needless to say I vote 'NO' to nearly all these clowns every year.

It's not quite as cut-and-dry as it appears. It's not like the dragon's den or the coliseum where the thumbs go up or down on a decision at first glance.

[FloydHendershot]

That happens when the "highest authority" understands little or nothing about automobiles.

You might be more right than you know.

Have a look. Bored of directors

[Camino LS6]

You might be more right than you know.

Have a look. Bored of directors

Actually I did know - thus my comment.

[FloydHendershot]

Actually I did know - thus my comment.

Certainly is a diverse group with various affiliations, directorships, and affiliations. Also particularly interesting the length of times each member has sat on the board.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It sure was not RW who stopped Lutz on some of his product plans. The board was also the one who had to be sold on the Volt. They were affraid of it and Lutz and RW had to sell them on the car because GM was so far behind the Prius already. They had to convince them they had to move to the next step beuond the Prius.

That right there speaks VOLUMES about the quality of leadership at GM.

This is part of the old GM system that Rick could not change and it needs addressed.

+1

As I have said The way GM has done buisness for years has caught up to them. The ways of waste and slow responce can can no longer be absorbed.

I agree.

Right now their is just no money or time at GM to save Pontiac anymore, but the spirit is there

*Fixed

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Almost two years ago to the day I wrote the following and if this is true am saddened to learn they would agree to keep Pontiac but dangling by the proverbial string.

At that time I thought an intervention had support and would be an honest attempt to revive the brand. I agree that it was necessary to keep a timetable, which was clearly truncated after the economic floor dropped. The string that dangled could not hold them up and is perhaps irreparably frayed at this point with the ground fast approaching.

My question is; WHAT IS THE LOGIC OF CLOSING DOWN THE BRAND?

I will not be happy until someone gives me a logical reason...

It makes absolutely NO sense to kill you second best selling car division in times when cars are becoming popular again... FURTHERMORE, it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to spend 10 years worth of time and money to try and shut a division down as opposed to saving it. What a MONUMENTAL waste of money?!?!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You might be more right than you know.

Have a look. Bored of directors

My question is, and always has been; why the f*ck are these "brand managers" allowed to run GM. They know nothing of the business.

[Camino LS6]

My question is; WHAT IS THE LOGIC OF CLOSING DOWN THE BRAND?

I will not be happy until someone gives me a logical reason...

It makes absolutely NO sense to kill you second best selling car division in times when cars are becoming popular again... FURTHERMORE, it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to spend 10 years worth of time and money to try and shut a division down as opposed to saving it. What a MONUMENTAL waste of money?!?!

That about sums it up.

[gmcbob]

GM is so f*cked up. What in the hell is wrong with this company? I can't believe the same company that built my sweet ass 68 Impala Convertible is in this much friggin trouble.

Dios Mio

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

GM is so f*cked up. What in the hell is wrong with this company? I can't believe the same company that built my sweet ass 68 Impala Convertible is in this much friggin trouble.

Dios Mio

Its because IT IS the same company that built your sweet ass 68 Impala.

GM failed to stay current with the current corporate structures and has fallen slowly but surely.

[hyperv6]

Its because IT IS the same company that built your sweet ass 68 Impala.

GM failed to stay current with the current corporate structures and has fallen slowly but surely.

[FloydHendershot]

My question is; WHAT IS THE LOGIC OF CLOSING DOWN THE BRAND?

I will not be happy until someone gives me a logical reason...

It makes absolutely NO sense to kill you second best selling car division in times when cars are becoming popular again... FURTHERMORE, it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to spend 10 years worth of time and money to try and shut a division down as opposed to saving it. What a MONUMENTAL waste of money?!?!

The simple answer-6 or one half dozen of the other.

If these reports or history reveals any insight they are currently taking steps to do this.

After Olds failed to stay relevant even with a fairly decent lineup (including the Bravada) that was whittling down it wasn't really much of a decision. You can take it on the chin initially and deal with lost capacity, jobs, R/D money, etc and dealer buyouts then ride that out until the money and resource are more effectively redistributed.

GM remained number one in sales with the loss of Olds. Not all Olds customers remained consumers of GM but it's difficult if at all able to be proven the cost did not outweigh the benefit.

Fast forward 2009 and we see Pontiac in a similar situation. If there ever was a case to keep a brand it would be Pontiac and Buick. There is less redundancy with those two brands when executed properly. Merely keeping them and feeding them Chevy's leftovers does not strengthen a case for viability per the brand alone.

It would have been nice to see a new start with the Solstice and more brand appropriate CARS but considering other factors when it pays to keep things like capacity running etc there are no easy ways out.

In the end the losses associated with extinguishing a brand would not be readily absorbed by a company on the ropes as it were in 2007 or 2009 without some monumental outside force working against them so why not keep things running? Ride it out then get the white paper out.

This is just the way I imagine it happening based on the situations past and present.

Six or one half dozen of the other.

[buyacargetacheck]

Simple. GM loses money. Pontiac is contributing to those losses with its immense rebate needs. Pontiac needs huge rebates because its image is jacked. Has been for a very long time. Would require huge sums of money to resurrect it but no non-badge engineered product of its own to back up the image. Oh, and btw, no prospects for growth. Game over. Done.

Buick in the US is in the same camp as far as I'm concerned. GM would likely make more money on every unit restyling the new LaCrosse and Enclave and badging them as Cadillacs.

Certain GMCs were profitable before the last gas price crisis, but how's the future look for trucks now? Looks like little potential for growth. Might as well nix GMC and count on retaining, say 25%, of former GMC owners as new Chevy owners. The loss in revenue versus the cost savings in not having to spend money on clips and badges and dealer support and advertising support makes it a wash. BUT, Chevrolet trucks gets a clearer image in the process without its twin running all over town messing it up.

The Toyota model has won: Chevy and Cadillac is the future for GM.

My question is; WHAT IS THE LOGIC OF CLOSING DOWN THE BRAND?

I will not be happy until someone gives me a logical reason...

It makes absolutely NO sense to kill you second best selling car division in times when cars are becoming popular again... FURTHERMORE, it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to spend 10 years worth of time and money to try and shut a division down as opposed to saving it. What a MONUMENTAL waste of money?!?!

[FloydHendershot]

Simple. GM loses money. Pontiac is contributing to those losses with its immense rebate needs. Pontiac needs huge rebates because its image is jacked. Has been for a very long time. Would require huge sums of money to resurrect it but no non-badge engineered product of its own to back up the image. Oh, and btw, no prospects for growth. Game over. Done.

Buick in the US is in the same camp as far as I'm concerned. GM would likely make more money on every unit restyling the new LaCrosse and Enclave and badging them as Cadillacs.

Certain GMCs were profitable before the last gas price crisis, but how's the future look for trucks now? Looks like little potential for growth. Might as well nix GMC and count on retaining, say 25%, of former GMC owners as new Chevy owners. The loss in revenue versus the cost savings in not having to spend money on clips and badges and dealer support and advertising support makes it a wash. BUT, Chevrolet trucks gets a clearer image in the process without its twin running all over town messing it up.

The Toyota model has won: Chevy and Cadillac is the future for GM.

Toyota model? Scion? Opening a boondoggle of plant in SA? Toyota does not have the answers my friend and would certainly not follow their model in any way shape or form.

[buyacargetacheck]

Riiiight. Sure. That's why Toyota is number one now and GM is looking at number three behind VW. VW! That's why Toyota's market cap makes GM's look like a rounding error. That's why Toyota brand handily outsells Chevrolet now (of course, it's not because GM is busy shuffling around dead brands, right?). Lexus outsells Cadillac. Yeah, you're right. Toyota doesn't know what it's doing.

Toyota model? Scion? Opening a boondoggle of plant in SA? Toyota does not have the answers my friend and would certainly not follow their model in any way shape or form.

Edited April 14, 2009 by buyacargetacheck

[FloydHendershot]

Riiiight. Sure. That's why Toyota is number one now and GM is looking at number three behind VW. VW! That's why Toyota's market cap makes GM's look like a rounding error. That's why Toyota brand handily outsells Chevrolet now (of course, it's not because GM is busy shuffling around dead brands, right?). Lexus outsells Cadillac. Yeah, you're right. Toyota doesn't know what it's doing.

Yup. 2 years in a row operating at a loss. And not a little loss. Taking about as much as 5 billion dollars this year. Of course that is just an estimate for right now. It could be more. Maybe less. I hope you aren't suggesting GM is where they are today because Lexus outsells Cadillac or even GM's shuffling dead brands. You seem too intelligent for post hoc ergo proctor hoc. :AH-HA_wink:

Perhaps you've also read about the Toyota family intentionally losing 429 million dollars and what's happening in Japan in places like Toyoda city. of course you do, I know you do!

My point is and has been clear and simple. They may have started in a better position but they have made many errors unquestionably not the least of which increasing their presence in a nonexistent truck market. This recession or depression or whatever you wish to call it has hit just about everyone and hardly anyone is left unscathed and thin king about what they could have done differently. Toyota is not an exception just like GM didn't wake up one day with the weight of the world on their shoulders.