Industry News: ZETA - Zero Emission Transportation Association - What is it?

[G. David Felt]

Securing American global EV manufacturing leadership, dramatically improving public health and significantly reducing carbon pollution is some of the key goals that ZETA or Zero Emission Transportation Association was formed for.

This industry association is focused on creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs. In quoting their www.zeta2030.org web site they state the 3 core points.

1. Job Creation - Enacting ambitious, but realistic policies to accelerate transportation electrification will create hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs. Congress must seize this opportunity or risk ceding this economic growth to others.
2. Cleaner Environment - The transportation sector emits more carbon pollution than any other sector of the U.S. economy. Electric vehicles produce no tailpipe emissions and are 67% less carbon intensive than gasoline-powered auto's over their lifetime.
3. Real Savings - By going electric, vehicle owners can save over $700 a year in Fuel and an additional $330 in annual maintenance costs. Federal, state and local incentives can drive greater consumer benefits.

Their press release has the ZETA five key policy pillars:

1. Outcome-driven consumer EV incentives. Point-of-sale consumer incentives drive adoption, provide cost reductions and achieve real results in pushing transportation electrification. In addition, incentivizing early retirements while encouraging EV adoption will speed the transition and meet the urgency of the moment.

2. Emissions / performance standards enabling full electrification by 2030. Emission targets are a key piece of protecting public health and sending the correct market signals to support and accelerate the transition to zero emission transportation.

3. Infrastructure investments. Strong federal charging infrastructure investments will drive the electric transportation transition and ensure that the United States is leading the way in a clean recovery where everyone is better off.

4. Domestic manufacturing. We should not only accelerate U.S. transportation electrification, but also work to ensure that we secure domestic economic growth and leadership in EV manufacturing. Federal policies must encourage job creation and economic activity across the entire EV supply chain and lifecycle, from critical materials to vehicles.

5. Federal leadership and cooperation with sub-national entities. Federal support should invest in research and development, provide an aligned vision for electrification, and ensure local leaders are empowered with the expertise and resources to support full vehicle electrification.

 Further details about their key issues can be found here: https://www.zeta2030.org/key-issues/

ZETA includes the following founding members:

1. ABB
2. Albemarle Corporation
3. Arrival
4. ChargePoint
5. ConEdison
6. Copper Development Association, Inc.
7. Duke Energy
8. Edison International
9. Enel X
10. EVBox
11. EVgo
12. Ioneer
13. Li-Cycle
14. Lordstown Motors
15. Lucid Motors
16. Piedmont Lithium
17. PG&E Corporation
18. Proterra
19. Redwood Materials
20. Rivian
21. Siemens
22. Southern Company
23. SRP
24. Tesla
25. Vistra
26. Volta
27. Uber
28. WAVE

ZETA mission statement:

ZETA brings together those whose values and strategic interests support 100% electric vehicle sales by 2030.

This diverse non-partisan group coordinates public education efforts and federal policy development to promote EV adoption with the goal of creating American electric vehicle manufacturing jobs, better serving consumers, improving air quality and public health, and significantly reducing carbon pollution.

ZETA can be contacted at the following:

Joe Britton
Executive Director, ZETA
[email protected]

David Ganske
Communications and PR for ZETA
[email protected]

View full article

[balthazar]

2030- 8.5 years from now???
 

They’ve already reduced their own credibility to zero. Unless you approach a monumental consumer-related shift with realism of the situation, you already failed. The major accomplishment this entity will achieve is to start a revenue stream. 

[G. David Felt]

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

2030- 8.5 years from now???
 

They’ve already reduced their own credibility to zero. Unless you approach a monumental consumer-related shift with realism of the situation, you already failed. The major accomplishment this entity will achieve is to start a revenue stream. 

We are 2020 now, 2030 is 10 years from now, not 8.5 years. 

I honestly do not see why we could not have the consumer auto market selling electric only by 2030. This is possible over the next 10 years. We have seen change like this happen in many other industries where 10 years later what they sell versus a decade earlier is vastly different.

[balthazar]

Price.
 

I went off model years- we’re into the ‘21’s already. Let’s call it 9 years. Either way, it’s impossible. 
 

Instead of arbitrarily pegging a near-future year, why not simply focus on the products/manufacturers and state programs. They set themselves up for failure; many of the announced ev vehicles aren’t coming out until ‘22 or ‘23, IF they hit that mark. Look at Trsla’s track record of announcement vs actual on-sale dates.

If one doesn’t ignore the futurists and focus on the actual numbers, they’re not being serious.

[balthazar]

Here’s a great example; Look at LED taillights. Inspired by dump trucks and school buses, LED tails were heralded as illuminating quicker (“saving lives”), burning less fuel (however microscopically less), and the actual per vehicle cost increase was pennies. But there are still incandescent bulbs in new vehicle tails. Know when the first production LED tails came out?
 

1993.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Here’s a great example; Look at LED taillights. Inspired by dump trucks and school buses, LED tails were heralded as illuminating quicker (“saving lives”), burning less fuel (however microscopically less), and the actual per vehicle cost increase was pennies. But there are still incandescent bulbs in new vehicle tails. Know when the first production LED tails came out?
 

1993.

I think one of the issues is also long term contracts. Businesses are looking at bonus payments to executives / mgmt. and as such squeeze every penny for profit versus looking at the long term of pay out the cancellation fee to the supplier and change to a better technology faster.

I honestly think the auto industry could improve auto's faster if they did not look at 5 to 10 year contracts. The more often changes happening in the last few years is making me think even the OEMs have finally woke up to the fact they have to change at a faster pace like the tech industry. 

While the tech industry is focused on new tech every 90 to 180 days of which I do not think the auto industry needs to change that fast, they should be looking at no more than 2 years before updating to newer tech from lights to interior materials, etc. Change has to happen faster than having an auto go 10 years of the same tech. 

Honestly I am surprised some products like Toyota Tundra have gone on so long or the Nissan pickup truck. 

Stagnant auto tech will be the death of an auto company as we move forward. They have to change faster.

[balthazar]

If a product is competitive within it's segment still, it actually doesn't.

IMO; one of the most annoying things about tech IS the rapid pace of change. It's completely a form of planned obsolescence, IE; "your $800 phone is, like, so last year", meanwhile every next generation seems to see smaller and smaller increments of change. Most of the specs on an iphone 11 vs. 12 are identical.

[ocnblu]

This is a bunch of misguided dreamers who believe they are better decision makers than the public at large.  The people with money, the general public, rule with their wallets.  Scary how ridiculous this initiative is if you... just THINK about it.  A joke!

[A Horse With No Name]

13 hours ago, ocnblu said:

This is a bunch of misguided dreamers who believe they are better decision makers than the public at large.  The people with money, the general public, rule with their wallets.  Scary how ridiculous this initiative is if you... just THINK about it.  A joke!

Right, and the Free market is saying it wants electric products...which is why they are starting to show up in all sorts of interesting places. 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by A Horse With No Name

[A Horse With No Name]

Ford wouldn't be investing this kind of money if it didn't see this as the wave of the future...

https://fordauthority.com/2020/11/ford-makes-significant-investments-hires-hundreds-to-produce-electric-vehicles/

The future is here, no matter how much people in smaller Pennsylvania towns hold their beath, watch their faces turn red in the mirror, and collapse on the floor asphyxiated in a fit of rage. Get over it and grow up. Seriously.

Apparently people in Indiana are holding their breath in fits of rage also...

https://www.thestarpress.com/story/news/crime/2020/11/17/modoc-man-charged-shooting-wind-turbine-workers/6321921002/?fbclid=IwAR0zySQLhtirUe6m6lLBzZOSQEyIhRXHf4BnNyR3j-636vtEdNDCB6rEqYo

WINCHESTER, Ind. — A Randolph County man is accused of firing gunshots in a bid to frighten workers installing wind turbines near his home.

David E. Oakerson, 45, of rural Modoc, was charged last week in Randolph Superior Court with criminal recklessness, a Level 6 felony carrying up to 30 months in prison, and two misdemeanor counts of intimidation.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hopefully, you get the point....

[A Horse With No Name]

Meanwhile technology and progress marches on...

 

 

[balthazar]

OEMs certainly can bring out all sorts of electric vehicles... but you can't FORCE a consumer to buy them; that has to come organically. They are the newbie that has to compete for the consumer's wallet by being competitive to the established market. Perhaps one day it will be a sweeping tide, and I expect it to increase substantially over time... but there's no way you can mandate it by decree in 9 years. All realistic future projections have to be based largely on present & past plots.

[ocnblu]

10 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Right, and the Free market is saying it wants electric products...

REALLY?  TWO PERCENT OF THE US AUTOMOTIVE MARKET?  Go back in your hole.

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

OEMs certainly can bring out all sorts of electric vehicles... but you can't FORCE a consumer to buy them;

Sane reply.  Realistic reply.  Levelheaded reply.

[surreal1272]

On 11/18/2020 at 6:51 PM, ocnblu said:

This is a bunch of misguided dreamers who believe they are better decision makers than the public at large.  The people with money, the general public, rule with their wallets.  Scary how ridiculous this initiative is if you... just THINK about it.  A joke!

Americans have been coached by the other side using that same premise for decades. Why does Big Oil think they know better than the public?

 

See how that works or do you live in a world where one side is always right and the other side is always wrong?

3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Sane reply.  Realistic reply.  Levelheaded reply.

Maybe you should take some notes.

[regfootball]

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

OEMs certainly can bring out all sorts of electric vehicles... but you can't FORCE a consumer to buy them; that has to come organically. They are the newbie that has to compete for the consumer's wallet by being competitive to the established market. Perhaps one day it will be a sweeping tide, and I expect it to increase substantially over time... but there's no way you can mandate it by decree in 9 years. All realistic future projections have to be based largely on present & past plots.

and yet they won't let permits be granted for precious metal mining to make all these kajillion batteries.

no charge network, cold weather issues.  yes, it will take time for the technology develop for the MASSES.

Unless they are trying to get the masses out of their cars and only select few get a car.  

 

[ocnblu]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Maybe you should take some notes.

DUUUUDE, Balthy said the same thing I said, what on rare earth are you talking abote?

[G. David Felt]

7 hours ago, regfootball said:

and yet they won't let permits be granted for precious metal mining to make all these kajillion batteries.

no charge network, cold weather issues.  yes, it will take time for the technology develop for the MASSES.

Unless they are trying to get the masses out of their cars and only select few get a car.  

 

Battery tech is moving away from precious rare earth elements and that is proven in a variety of new solid state battery production that comes online next year for a wide variety of EVs that will be produced next year and moving forward.

No Charging Network, please state where you actually live as I am willing to bet there are far more charging options than you are aware of or willing to acknowledge. Cold weather issues have been made moot. How you will ask, easy just like ICE auto's loose MPG efficiency in cold weather, batteries do too, to offset this, we have Hydro thermal management and that has been proven well by Tesla and GM in their current EVs where people have lost some range but over all still have plenty to get out and about to work, errands, etc.

You are right on it will take time and yet we have seen where properly motivated and supported, you can change the masses to embrace change.

NORWAY leads the world with over 60% of new auto sales being EVs for the last 2 years and climbing. Yes a small country compared to the US, but a great example of how they have embraced change for a better healthy life for the MASSES.

Here are sites that track where one can charge their EV.

https://www.plugshare.com/

https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

If you do not like 3rd party mapping sites, then use the Governments own location site that shows the 100's of thousands of charging locations and growing.

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_stations.html

[balthazar]

^ There's a 10-outlet location across the highway from me... but Tesla's only. There's 2 outlets at my municipal building about 2 miles from me... but for municipal vehicles only (I've never seen an EV municipal vehicle in their fleet). There's 2 outlets at a nissan dealer about 2 miles from me, but you have to call ahead to use. There's 2 outlets at a school about 4 miles from me, that's 24/7 available.

A LONG way to go to be comparable right here.

Meanwhile, I have like 20 pumps at a Costco, 16 pumps at a Raceway, like 10 pumps at a Fuel One, like 20 pumps at a Speedway prolly 12 pumps at a BP, a Valero, a WAWA.... I'm sure others, all within a 2 miles.

[surreal1272]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

DUUUUDE, Balthy said the same thing I said, what on rare earth are you talking abote?

YOU have never spoken about EVs in a sane manner as Balthazar. That’s the point that clearly flew over your cerebral mind. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

^ There's a 10-outlet location across the highway from me... but Tesla's only. There's 2 outlets at my municipal building about 2 miles from me... but for municipal vehicles only (I've never seen an EV municipal vehicle in their fleet). There's 2 outlets at a nissan dealer about 2 miles from me, but you have to call ahead to use. There's 2 outlets at a school about 4 miles from me, that's 24/7 available.

A LONG way to go to be comparable right here.

Meanwhile, I have like 20 pumps at a Costco, 16 pumps at a Raceway, like 10 pumps at a Fuel One, like 20 pumps at a Speedway prolly 12 pumps at a BP, a Valero, a WAWA.... I'm sure others, all within a 2 miles.

And in Phoenix metro, they are literally everywhere. Point being, they are getting there at a faster rate than before. Hell, even in NC, I’m seeing more and more public charging stations. The Wal-Mart near my old place in Greensboro, NC had a twelve bay charging station there. 

 

Oh and when you have had a 100 year head start on infrastructure, you better have gas stations everywhere at this point. That doesn’t mean there isn’t an increase in EV stations nationwide. For the record, there are 455 public charging stations in New Jersey. While obviously not as many as gas stations, there is no small number so perhaps you don’t see that many because you’re not really looking for them, being that you don’t own an EV in the first place. And the biggest thing you are skipping over is the fact that while the number of public charging station places pale in comparison to gas station in said area, I can’t fill up my car every night at home since I don’t have a gas pump hooked up to my house. EVs, on the other hand...just saying. 

 

https://njdep.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e41aa50dd8cd45faba8641b6be6097b1

Edited November 20, 2020 by surreal1272

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

YOU have never spoken about EVs in a sane manner as Balthazar. That’s the point that clearly flew over your cerebral mind. 

How debate happens on EV's here at C and G...

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

How debate happens on EV's here at C and G...

THIS!!! I am dying here! LMMFAO!

 

Thanks Horse! I needed that laugh!

[balthazar]

No, surreal; I’m not driving around in my TD looking for charging locations, that’s why I used an online locator for my info. Only one I was aware of visibly was the Tesla one.
And while I get that things were different 90 years ago, just like they will be 90 from now, I can’t make a vehicle purchase in either of those times. 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No, surreal; I’m not driving around in my TD looking for charging locations, that’s why I used an online locator for my info. Only one I was aware of visibly was the Tesla one.
And while I get that things were different 90 years ago, just like they will be 90 from now, I can’t make a vehicle purchase in either of those times. 

Now see if you could just turn that electric Delorean into a time machine you could make a vehicle purchase in both and prove to Blu once and for all the viability of electric vehicles.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

No, surreal; I’m not driving around in my TD looking for charging locations, that’s why I used an online locator for my info. Only one I was aware of visibly was the Tesla one.
And while I get that things were different 90 years ago, just like they will be 90 from now, I can’t make a vehicle purchase in either of those times. 

I get what you’re trying to say but why ignore certain positives like the fact that you can just charge your car at home unlike with gas? That, to me, offsets some of the current infrastructure limitations. There are more and more charging stations popping up everywhere, and people who are actually buying EVs are well aware of this fact.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

 

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

No, surreal; I’m not driving around in my TD looking for charging locations, that’s why I used an online locator for my info. Only one I was aware of visibly was the Tesla one.
And while I get that things were different 90 years ago, just like they will be 90 from now, I can’t make a vehicle purchase in either of those times. 

And my key point is that whether you looked online, there are apparently plenty in other areas that have them so it may be a case of your situation being in the minority as opposed to the majority of folks in a state as physically small as New Jersey.

[balthazar]

I’m simply talking toward the concept that this is an imminent, 9-yr certainty. The infrastructure, the pricing and a number of other factors aren’t going to be ready.

The issue with NJ is the density- there’s 9 million people here. And I wonder if that ‘455 stations’ include a quantity of those like I mentioned; that are counted but restricted by customer or brand or scheduling. I’ll bet a bunch fit those descriptions exactly.

[G. David Felt]

22 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ There's a 10-outlet location across the highway from me... but Tesla's only. There's 2 outlets at my municipal building about 2 miles from me... but for municipal vehicles only (I've never seen an EV municipal vehicle in their fleet). There's 2 outlets at a nissan dealer about 2 miles from me, but you have to call ahead to use. There's 2 outlets at a school about 4 miles from me, that's 24/7 available.

A LONG way to go to be comparable right here.

Meanwhile, I have like 20 pumps at a Costco, 16 pumps at a Raceway, like 10 pumps at a Fuel One, like 20 pumps at a Speedway prolly 12 pumps at a BP, a Valero, a WAWA.... I'm sure others, all within a 2 miles.

Yet you probably do not have a gas station on site at your home, maybe a holding tank for some Jersey cans, but you probably do not have an in ground with active electric gas pump on site to fuel your auto's.

Yet you already have all you need to recharge and insure having a full battery pack every day from your house so there is no need to stop in the morning to fuel up. For the type of work you do, you probably have access to electrical outlets so you could always top off as they say with electrons if you needed it.

Your right New Jersey away from really dense areas has far fewer charging outlets than other areas but it is growing and upon looking at the map with 1,350 public charging outlets from 455 charging stations that are Type 2 and DC fast charging.

Over all there is more than enough charging stations that allows one to be able to do road trips across all of New Jersey.

As @Drew Dowdell has stated before, it is a change in mentality of going from stopping to fill up the tank at the end of the day or first thing in the morning to plugging in when you get home and have a full battery pack in the morning.

Of the almost 300 million auto's in the US, I doubt most of them like 85% ever really go on a road trip compared to just being driven for local errands and work. Most people can and would be just fine having an EV. 

I find it interesting to look at various states and see how fast things are changing.

State of Texas, a land of Guns and Oil has 1,445 EV stations with 4,386 charging outlets.

State of Pennsylvania has 672 EV Stations and 1,856 charging outlets.

State of Florida has 1,595 EV Stations and 4,681 charging outlets.

State of Alaska has 26 EV Stations and 46 charging outlets.

State of California has 6,936 EV Stations and 29,194 charging outlets.

Course this does not take into account how fast businesses are adding charging on site for employee use nor the fact that many never use public charging as they have a level 2 charger at home or for the frugal ones which I have many coworkers this way who say I am not going anywhere over night so why spend money when I can just plug into a 110 outlet.

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, balthazar said:

I’m simply talking toward the concept that this is an imminent, 9-yr certainty. The infrastructure, the pricing and a number of other factors aren’t going to be ready.

The issue with NJ is the density- there’s 9 million people here. And I wonder if that ‘455 stations’ include a quantity of those like I mentioned; that are counted but restricted by customer or brand or scheduling. I’ll bet a bunch fit those descriptions exactly.

Doesn’t matter. I’m only pointing out that they exist (and there are quite a few and growing at this point) but I should point out one thing about your “20 pumps at Costco” reference. Given what you drive, how many of those “20 pumps” are for Diesel? 

 

And maybe reading this will answer your questions about quantities and such.

https://www.drivegreen.nj.gov/charging.html

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Doesn’t matter. I’m only pointing out that they exist (and there are quite a few and growing at this point) but I should point out one thing about your “20 pumps at Costco” reference. Given what you drive, how many of those “20 pumps” are for Diesel? 

 

And maybe reading this will answer your questions about quantities and such.

https://www.drivegreen.nj.gov/charging.html

https://www.drivegreen.nj.gov/charging.html

That is a good read, thanks for posting Surreal1272

[balthazar]

Unfortunately no; Costco doesn't have diesel. And I don't 'top off' my tank daily, I run it til the low fuel light comes on, then I fill it to the brim, about once every 12 days. (Tho I would likely do along those lines with an EV).

While I use a customer's electric working on their job, I wouldn't feel comfortable plugging in my personal truck in also. Maybe that's just me; I have a 'line' I guess. I hate to ever ask to use their bathroom too.

But like I said; one shouldn't blindly accept that all 455 stations are open to the public. It's disingenuous to list a charging station behind a municipal police station that's only available to municipal vehicles (if there are any). I used that same site and that's how I learned about it. Why is that listed?? They're padding their numbers / 'marketing their cause'. I'd absolutely research my area before I bought an EV.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Unfortunately no; Costco doesn't have diesel. And I don't 'top off' my tank daily, I run it til the low fuel light comes on, then I fill it to the brim, about once every 12 days. (Tho I would likely do along those lines with an EV).

While I use a customer's electric working on their job, I wouldn't feel comfortable plugging in my personal truck in also. Maybe that's just me; I have a 'line' I guess. I hate to ever ask to use their bathroom too.

But like I said; one shouldn't blindly accept that all 455 stations are open to the public. It's disingenuous to list a charging station behind a municipal police station that's only available to municipal vehicles (if there are any). I used that same site and that's how I learned about it. Why is that listed?? They're padding their numbers / 'marketing their cause'. I'd absolutely research my area before I bought an EV.

I understand and respect your work ethic. 

In regards to the 455 stations, those are the Open to the Public ones. I get that you might think that one listed at a police station is only for Municipal vehicles, but supposedly they are supposed to be open to use by the public otherwise they are not included according to the fine print.

That does not include the private service charge points which increase even more charge locations if your part of that companies plan.

I find it weird that your Costco does not have Diesel as every Costco here has diesel in addition to multiple regular gas.

Put in your zip code and you can see what the current gas price is for the Costco closest to you.

https://www.costco.com/warehouse-locations

Update: I did find that Business Costco does not have Diesel here but all the regular ones seem to have diesel.

[balthazar]

12 hours ago, David said:

In regards to the 455 stations, those are the Open to the Public ones. I get that you might think that one listed at a police station is only for Municipal vehicles, but supposedly they are supposed to be open to use by the public otherwise they are not included according to the fine print.

I used YOUR link to see what is in my area. That link stated the municipal chargers 'are for municipal fleet use only'. Don't assume; click 'details'. The rear lot of the building is fenced off and they have signs stating 'no entry'. I can verify the next time I'm over there, but I'm positive the outlets are behind the building. I KNOW they're not in the front lot. Where else would the site get that info but from the source?

That does not include the private service charge points which increase even more charge locations if your part of that companies plan.
What "company"?

I find it weird that your Costco does not have Diesel as every Costco here has diesel in addition to multiple regular gas.
It's not weird; it's just something you haven't seen for yourself.

I've been a Costco customer for about 5 years (since it opened by me); I know how to use the internet / a business website. I DON'T need to check their prices tho, because they don't carry diesel.

Edited November 22, 2020 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Looked into one of my 4 aforementioned local sites- the one at the nissan dealer. Fast charger requires a PIN to activate. Dealer has a sign posted it's for nissan leaf ('leaves'??) only. One reviewer claimed he was kicked out by the cops for being there in a eGolf... but PlugShare shows a pic of a Volt plugged in- appears to be the same dealer.

Another one I mentioned, the school said one honda eFit reviewer said he was kicked out by the cops late at night- that it was 'private property'. Must have a ChargePoint card to access. A couple other reviewers complained one of the charger plugs was broken, and other that spots were 'iced' (I believe that means blocked).

[balthazar]

Kia dealer up the road (kinda awkward to get to from the highway) has 1 plug. Have to get permission to use. 1 toyoter reviewer gave a thumbs up, 1 Volt reviewer was told the charger was broken.

Looked at a neighboring municipal location. There they charge $2.10 per hour, (by the minute). Also listed was a $20 per hour 'idling fee'. They have 1 plug.

Some of these issues would be solved if lazy installers didn't put these on the wall of the building in a parking lot, where the spots can frequently get iced. Need a little 'fueling station' siding where people won't park.

Although it's brand new infrastructure, it needs a LOT of refinement yet. Not only is it not ready for mass use, it's not 'anxiety free'. Works OK as a niche source right now.

Edited November 22, 2020 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

Iced charge spots is just selfish BS of those doing it. Wonder how they would feel if EVs blocked the gas/diesel fueling spots.  Amazes me when people cannot be considerate of others and just get along.

THANK YOU @balthazar I truly appreciate your time and effort in letting us know about the Charging infrastructure by you. Yes, they do have a ways to go to properly have it available for all.

I do find it odd that the gov web site says these are the publicly available charge sites and then details and actual checking shows they are not. Frustrating for sure.

[Drew Dowdell]

@balthazar Why are you looking at chargers around your house?  Those are the chargers you would never use. Unless you're eligible for Tesla Supercharging for free or some other free service, charging at public paid charging stations never makes financial sense.  What you want to look for is chargers between you and long-distance destinations that you visit.  Can you make it to your son's college and back on a single charge? If not, look up chargers either in-between or at his school.  Those are the chargers you would use.

You're not driving 300 miles a day every day unless you're doing work in Harrisburg. Think about the longest trips you've taken in the past three years and look at the chargers for those routes. Anything under about 100 miles one way and you don't need to even think about it because for those you'd charge at home. 

The point that I believe @David is trying to make is that you "fill up" every day at home.  You'll never use any of the public chargers around you... or even within 100 miles of your place.  You'd never charge at a customer's home not because of any cost... even at 20c/kWh you're looking at $2.50 max worth of electricity on a 110v outlet. You wouldn't do it because on a 110v outlet the charge rate is too slow to even bother.  If a customer had a level 2 charger at their house and let you use it, you could knock $5 off their bill and you'd be more than even. 

I suspect that the people you see hogging all of the Tesla chargers at the mall are just cheapskates that don't want their electric bill going up $30 a month. They paid all that money for a Tesla with free charging and they feel entitled to use as much free charging as possible and abuse the system even though from an opportunity cost/hour it makes little sense to the likes of you and I who can math. 

You could put a dryer outlet in your garage, get a level 2 charger for home and NEVER need to visit a public charger except for the maybe 2 times a year you go to your son's university.

(I realize that Covid changes a lot of this scenario, but I'm talking about when life goes back to normal)

[Drew Dowdell]

On 11/21/2020 at 11:37 AM, David said:

I find it weird that your Costco does not have Diesel as every Costco here has diesel in addition to multiple regular gas.

East Coast Costcos, Sams, and BJs, generally don't carry diesel. I've driven the entire east cost from Boston to Key West and West to Detroit, MI.. not saying my survey was exhaustive, but I make it a habit to fill up at Costco as much as possible because they have the lowest prices for the top tier gas.  I've never seen a Costco with diesel. 

[balthazar]

• Luckily my son graduated last year, and already has just over a year of work under his belt- no more 110 mile one-way runs.
• Even otherwise; I drive over 100 miles in a day maybe once a year.
• Charging at home would work for me, tho my truck doesn't fit thru any of my garage doors, so I'd have to run a cord outside, under the garage door, to plug in, then coil it up in the AM. Still likely only a weekly occurrence in my situation (even tho an EV truck will never fit my bill). Most I've ever plugged in my block heater in winter is maybe 4 times/yr - it's not that big a deal. Would be far nicer doing so were it in a garage, tho.

But I've personally worked at a number of homes that have NO DRIVEWAY- they street park. Those people are going to likely need public chargers somewhere. And there's obviously apartment dwellers in the same boat. And long-distance commuters/ service folk/ etc who's employers have no chargers / have no end destination. These folk (and whoever is buying vehicles like a $35K e-Golf and writing Plugshare reviews), seemingly have a need for public chargers. Otherwise, there'd be no pressure to build them. It's not all long-haul travelers. I know this because the Tesla station across the street isn't on a long-distance highway, and there's always cars there on weekday mornings. These people weren't driving all night- they're cheap bastards (in $90K cars).
I'm still trying to figure out if they think they're impressing anyone or not.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

• Luckily my son graduated last year, and already has just over a year of work under his belt- no more 110 mile one-way runs.
• Even otherwise; I drive over 100 miles in a day maybe once a year.
• Charging at home would work for me, tho my truck doesn't fit thru any of my garage doors, so I'd have to run a cord outside, under the garage door, to plug in, then coil it up in the AM. Still likely only a weekly occurrence in my situation (even tho an EV truck will never fit my bill). Most I've ever plugged in my block heater in winter is maybe 4 times/yr - it's not that big a deal. Would be far nicer doing so were it in a garage, tho.

But I've personally worked at a number of homes that have NO DRIVEWAY- they street park. Those people are going to likely need public chargers somewhere. And there's obviously apartment dwellers in the same boat. And long-distance commuters/ service folk/ etc who's employers have no chargers / have no end destination. These folk (and whoever is buying vehicles like a $35K e-Golf and writing Plugshare reviews), seemingly have a need for public chargers. Otherwise, there'd be no pressure to build them. It's not all long-haul travelers. I know this because the Tesla station across the street isn't on a long-distance highway, and there's always cars there on weekday mornings. These people weren't driving all night- they're cheap bastards (in $90K cars).
I'm still trying to figure out if they think they're impressing anyone or not.

I was specifically only addressing your situation. I'm aware that people in apartments or without off street parking are different.  

As to your charger, you'd probably hardwire an outdoor safe model and hang it on the outside of the garage like a garden hose.  The shortest hardwire units are generally 25" long. 

The eGolf people (and Leaf and Focus EV) are special use cases that only work if they have charger access at their house. The ranges for those models are simply too short to be useful except as a 3rd car in the household and it being dedicated to a specific route and charging pattern. 

However, as more models like the high range Teslas, Fiskers, Hummers, Bolts, F-150s, and Rivians come out, the use case looks remarkably similar to an ICE vehicle. Plug it in at night and go about your normal daily routine. 

Heck, I've got 50% of the action down right now without having an EV in the household. Ever since it got cold here, the Toronado gets put on the battery tender every time it gets parked. 

[balthazar]

I gotcha, but personally I don't see me ever buying an EV truck, too much would have to align for that to happen (on the product side).

[Drew Dowdell]

45 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I gotcha, but personally I don't see me ever buying an EV truck, too much would have to align for that to happen (on the product side).

10+ years when you want to start looking at retiring but you know you never will because you're like me in that if you didn't work you'd be bored, but you realize you can step back from 2500 series trucks and get a 1500 series with a 400+ mile EV range to do the work and just have the heavier stuff delivered by the supplier. 

[balthazar]

I'm actively shopping right now for a 1500. And I'm certainly mentally willing to work for many more years, but my body is starting to argue with that.

Tow ratings around 9000 seem fine (I think my 2500HD is around 11.2K). I'm terrifically smitten by the 3.0L TD at GM, what a great powertrain via the specs.

I don't like delivery. I prefer to handle it all myself. If I have to go to the store to pick the materials anyway, I might as well haul it right there. One job I got 16' Trex decking, I borrowed a trailer and hauled it myself. I'm not sure the box stores have the capacity to deliver those lengths anyway. Another job I had to move 20-foot fencing pipes, I used my truck w/ a rig I built to go into the hitch receiver. My truck is holding up the 'truck cards' of 1000 short bed Denali's.

The only job I had materials delivered was for an entire house construction. :p

My #1 issue is finding a crew cab / 6.5-ft bed. They're hella scarce among the Big 4 as it is, but most of the proposed EV trucks don't offer that, and I don't expect they will; those will have to come from GM / Ford / Ram.

[balthazar]

Atlis has been deathly quiet for what seems like a year now, but their site still says 2021 they'll have a 6.5' bed 4x4 EV starting at $45K. Kinda wonky up front, but I like it better than the Rivian. We'll see... but I don't buy first MODEL generation vehicles, I'm certainly not going to buy a first BRAND generation vehicle.

[G. David Felt]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Atlis has been deathly quiet for what seems like a year now, but their site still says 2021 they'll have a 6.5' bed 4x4 EV starting at $45K. Kinda wonky up front, but I like it better than the Rivian. We'll see... but I don't buy first MODEL generation vehicles, I'm certainly not going to buy a first BRAND generation vehicle.

Interesting that in the interview with Business Insider and a comparison to Tesla Cyber truck that a base 4x4 model of Lordstown EV truck starts at $52,500 and you can choose between a Standard Endurance 5.5 or Long Endurance 6.5 ft bed.

https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/hereaposs-how-lordstown-motorsapos-new-endurance-electric-pickup-truck-compares-to-teslaaposs-cybertruck/slidelist/76798420.cms#slideid=76798498

I am willing to bet that Ford will offer a couple sizes in beds also as people like you and me want the 6.5ft bed over the shorter 5.5 bed.

RJ, CEO of Rivian has stated that once the R1T and R1S are in full Production they are going to consider additional bed lengths for those that need a bigger bed. Current for the R1t is just 4.6 ft long which is fine for weekend haulers from Home Depot of most stuff, but fails for standard lumber.

Options I think will come in the next few years for EV trucks with various bed lengths. Be interesting to see what Chevrolet offers since they have moved up the full size Silverado pickup to 2024 and are on record saying that buyers will have just as many options in configurations as traditional ICE trucks have had.

[balthazar]

Lordstown truck is hideously ugly and the Rivian is a luxury toy. Both are no-go’s.

[Drew Dowdell]

23 hours ago, balthazar said:

Lordstown truck is hideously ugly and the Rivian is a luxury toy. Both are no-go’s.

So, F-150 EV?

[balthazar]

It'll be priced too high. And I still prefer IC.

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:36 PM, balthazar said:

I'm actively shopping right now for a 1500. And I'm certainly mentally willing to work for many more years, but my body is starting to argue with that.

Tow ratings around 9000 seem fine (I think my 2500HD is around 11.2K). I'm terrifically smitten by the 3.0L TD at GM, what a great powertrain via the specs.

I don't like delivery. I prefer to handle it all myself. If I have to go to the store to pick the materials anyway, I might as well haul it right there. One job I got 16' Trex decking, I borrowed a trailer and hauled it myself. I'm not sure the box stores have the capacity to deliver those lengths anyway. Another job I had to move 20-foot fencing pipes, I used my truck w/ a rig I built to go into the hitch receiver. My truck is holding up the 'truck cards' of 1000 short bed Denali's.

The only job I had materials delivered was for an entire house construction. ?

My #1 issue is finding a crew cab / 6.5-ft bed. They're hella scarce among the Big 4 as it is, but most of the proposed EV trucks don't offer that, and I don't expect they will; those will have to come from GM / Ford / Ram.

My body veto'd the idea of contin uing to work at the same pace, I am 55, that ahppened to me about 47. Took a job at a Unviersity facilties departemtn, pays the bills, much less physical stress. 

29 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It'll be priced too high. And I still prefer IC.

Nothing wrong with that. 

33 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

So, F-150 EV?

Low mile used, if he could cut his fuel cost down, methinks he might well consider it in a few years. 

23 hours ago, balthazar said:

Lordstown truck is hideously ugly and the Rivian is a luxury toy. Both are no-go’s.

Rivian is a full on Truck. Thinking seriously if CPO is cheap enough in a few years, would love to own one.