Industry News: ZETA - Zero Emission Transportation Association - What is it?

[balthazar]

We're the same age, Horse. I was really good forever, but the last year or so has taken me basically to 'wake up & see what hurts today' status.

Rivian -for me- has a useless bed. That 'cargo tunnel' lopped like 1.5 feet out of it.
But shouldn't be too difficult to build a bed version without it.

But I'm not paying $70 grand for a truck.

[ykX]

17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

'wake up & see what hurts today'

Well they say: if you woke up and nothing hurts - you are dead

[Robert Hall]

Turned 50 this year.  Overall, my health is fine..need to take off a few pounds.   But after decades of living in one story homes, moving to a four story split level in 2017 has taken it's toll on my back, hips and knees...some days are fine, other days it's a world of pain....

Edited November 24, 2020 by Robert Hall

[David]

After a life time of power lifting and body building, I stick to what Arnold Schwarzenegger always said, pain tells ya your alive and as long as it is tolerable, you know your not 6ft under.

I figure, life is pain, pain is life, as long as I have loved ones around, a job I enjoy and can ski, life is good for me.

Back on topic of the new ZETA group, I suspect FORD F-150 EV will destroy the other truck sales as FORD is planning to offer all the same bed and cab configurations. At that point with more Torque and hauling than an ICE, more traditional truck buyers will move over to the EV. 

I also see this happening with GM and their Chevrolet Silverado EV truck line.

[David]

I do find it interesting that the 2yr development cycle is what GM now believes they can do for all EVs and will speed up new models faster and more reliable than ICE.

GMC Hummer Electric Truck | General Motors

Gonna be interesting times for sure on how fast GM can bring in as they have now committed to having affordable EVs for all at all price points over the next 5 years.

[balthazar]

Would be nice to see GM get back to development times they used to do.

Edited November 24, 2020 by balthazar

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, balthazar said:

Would be nice to see GM get back to development tomes they used to do.

Yes it would. 

[A Horse With No Name]

48 minutes ago, David said:

After a life time of power lifting and body building, I stick to what Arnold Schwarzenegger always said, pain tells ya your alive and as long as it is tolerable, you know your not 6ft under.

I figure, life is pain, pain is life, as long as I have loved ones around, a job I enjoy and can ski, life is good for me.

Back on topic of the new ZETA group, I suspect FORD F-150 EV will destroy the other truck sales as FORD is planning to offer all the same bed and cab configurations. At that point with more Torque and hauling than an ICE, more traditional truck buyers will move over to the EV. 

I also see this happening with GM and their Chevrolet Silverado EV truck line.

With time, Pickup buyers are a traditional lot. I almost see companies like Rivian and Lordstown and the like winning over luxury buyers whoa re looking for something new and different. 

Wife's boss and her partner just got a new full size domestic truck, crew cab. Donna, Amy's partner is turning her BMW SUV in at the end of the lease in  a few weeks. They absolutely love the truck. The ladies love Kyaking and being outdoors, and the truck is infinitely more practical. They also both have dogs, so the additional room is really welcome. Plus, the Pickup rides and drives better than the BMW. So its a win all around.

People like that will be the frotnline buyers for electrics. 

Also, Businesses. When an extermination business needs midsize trucks to go on rounds killing ants and termites, electrics might well be cheaper, mroe reliable and elss maintenance. I think that will be the second step. 

Third step will be people in Urban environments like NYC or Paris which will have more draconian pollution laws which will be ahrder and ahrder for ICE vehicles to meet. 

Guys like Balthazar are not going to be the front line buyers of these trucks. 

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Turned 50 this year.  Overall, my health is fine..need to take off a few pounds.   But after decades of living in one story homes, moving to a four story split level in 2017 has taken it's toll on my back, hips and knees...some days are fine, other days it's a world of pain....

I go up and down steps dozens of times a day and do fine. I just no nlonger want to haul around 4 inch electrical conduit and sling it in over my head on an install. 

2 hours ago, ykX said:

Well they say: if you woke up and nothing hurts - you are dead

Enough hurts on me that I know I am very alive...

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

We're the same age, Horse. I was really good forever, but the last year or so has taken me basically to 'wake up & see what hurts today' status.

Rivian -for me- has a useless bed. That 'cargo tunnel' lopped like 1.5 feet out of it.
But shouldn't be too difficult to build a bed version without it.

But I'm not paying $70 grand for a truck.

See above, I am not sure you are going to be the front line target buyer of this. And dammit, I still want a full size diesel truck. 

I think RAM with a cummins would be awesome, but I would trust a GM truck more in terms of electrical issues and general build quality. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by A Horse With No Name
Spelling

[A Horse With No Name]

Aslo, Northsky Blue would be a hot color for a GM truck...one ton with a diesel, I could rock that. 

And yes I know the truck pcitured is a 3/4 ton...

Give me a dually or give me death....said Patrick Henry's great great great great great grandson.

[David]

31 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Aslo, Northsky Blue would be a hot color for a GM truck...one ton with a diesel, I could rock that. 

And yes I know the truck pcitured is a 3/4 ton...

Give me a dually or give me death....said Patrick Henry's great great great great great grandson.

But that FACE!, Only a mother could love that Ugly Face!  

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, David said:

But that FACE!, Only a mother could love that Ugly Face!  

Actually I am to the point of finding them quite attractive. 

"Blu and some others ought to consider......flame around flammable liquids is not always the best..

[A Horse With No Name]

Just sayin.....

[balthazar]

Smart businesses always keep an eye on the bottom line. We saw the comparison here of the Tesla vs. Ford police cars- the IC cop car was $29 grand ahead of the electric, and had a lot less maintenance. The pricing on EVs is almost always MUCH higher than IC versions...

[balthazar]

I really liked the Carbon Black at GMC, but it was a 2020 color only.

[ocnblu]

6 hours ago, David said:

more reliable than ICE.

Were you asleep when you posted this?  Because you sure are dreamin'.  Absolutely NO PROOF, and with Tesla around, it makes your comment even more hilarious.

6 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

People like that will be the frotnline buyers for electrics. 

Aren't we a bit presumptuous?

[ocnblu]

5 hours ago, David said:

But that FACE!, Only a mother could love that Ugly Face!  

Did you NOT see the screen capture of the EV "Silveraydo" from Barra's comedy vid?  The headlight setup is nearly the same as the current HD... you're looking at the parking lamps up top, the headlights will be down below...

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/22/2020 at 7:43 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

I was specifically only addressing your situation. I'm aware that people in apartments or without off street parking are different.  

As to your charger, you'd probably hardwire an outdoor safe model and hang it on the outside of the garage like a garden hose.  The shortest hardwire units are generally 25" long. 

The eGolf people (and Leaf and Focus EV) are special use cases that only work if they have charger access at their house. The ranges for those models are simply too short to be useful except as a 3rd car in the household and it being dedicated to a specific route and charging pattern. 

However, as more models like the high range Teslas, Fiskers, Hummers, Bolts, F-150s, and Rivians come out, the use case looks remarkably similar to an ICE vehicle. Plug it in at night and go about your normal daily routine. 

Heck, I've got 50% of the action down right now without having an EV in the household. Ever since it got cold here, the Toronado gets put on the battery tender every time it gets parked. 

If Balthazar's Buick had a battery it would be on a charger also.

[David]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Did you NOT see the screen capture of the EV "Silveraydo" from Barra's comedy vid?  The headlight setup is nearly the same as the current HD... you're looking at the parking lamps up top, the headlights will be down below...

Yup another Chevy failure in Style, but awesome EV power train.

That Chevy is why I will make a decision between Rivian or Hummer. Way better looking trucks and SUVs.

[balthazar]

6 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

If Balthazar's Buick had a battery it would be on a charger also.

😡 😫 😕 😉

6 minutes ago, David said:

That Chevy is why I will make a decision between Rivian or Hummer.

Or wait for the GMC version.

[A Horse With No Name]

13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

😡 😫 😕 😉

Or wait for the GMC version.

He is as slow buying vehicles as Blu is fast. The Rivian GMC or Hummer he buys will be like the 200 year old beetle in that woody allen movie.

And speaking of woody...Blu being that quick to always blow his load might be why he is sleeping alone tonight. Just saying....

[David]

Amazing all the EV Pickup trucks that have been announced for production. Be very interesting to see which ones actually make it to market. I am expecting that 50% will never actually see production and as the Heritage OEM builders start to deliver their trucks, it will reduce this down to maybe just Tesla and Rivian being the new kids on the block that survive along with Lordstown as a special Niche builder since they are focusing on Commercial use / Governments.

Hummer by GMC

Ford F-150 EV Pickup

Lordstown Endurance EV Pickup

Rivian R1T ev pickup

Havelaar Bison EV Pickup

Neuron EV Pickup

Atlas EV Pickup

Workhorse EV Pickup

Tesla Cyber Truck EV Pickup

Nissan / Hercules EV Pickup

Bollinger EV Pickup

Nikola Hydrogen/EV Pickup

[ocnblu]

Enough to fill a pretty small (albeit scary, environmentally) junkyard.  So much comedic value in this ^ post.

Edited November 25, 2020 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

6 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

And speaking of woody...

That's funny coming from the most notorious woodworker at C&G.

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Enough to fill a pretty small (albeit scary, environmentally) junkyard.  So much comedic value in this ^ post.

Nissan is also bringing out an Electric truck, so you will need more room in your junkyard, scooter. 

I really wish the Nikola were likely to see production and pure BEV. I kind of like the looks of it. 

[David]

54 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Nissan is also bringing out an Electric truck, so you will need more room in your junkyard, scooter. 

I really wish the Nikola were likely to see production and pure BEV. I kind of like the looks of it. 

Saw an update on Bloomberg this morning that Nissan is moving forward with tying up with Hercules EV pickup as I posted above in the list of EV pickups. Nissan seems to want to move this forward asap.

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, David said:

Saw an update on Bloomberg this morning that Nissan is moving forward with tying up with Hercules EV pickup as I posted above in the list of EV pickups. Nissan seems to want to move this forward asap.

Good for them. 

[balthazar]

LOT of ugliness in that collage of EV trucks. No way does Bolinger survive; the price vs. appearance is totally inverted. The Big 3 by far have the best chances moving forward.

[A Horse With No Name]

50 minutes ago, balthazar said:

LOT of ugliness in that collage of EV trucks. No way does Bolinger survive; the price vs. appearance is totally inverted. The Big 3 by far have the best chances moving forward.

Big three ahve the most experience building actual vehicles. Teslas problem isn't that they can't master 21'st century technology like self driving cars, it's that they can't master 1940's technology like doors that shut properly. 

[Drew Dowdell]

57 minutes ago, balthazar said:

LOT of ugliness in that collage of EV trucks. No way does Bolinger survive; the price vs. appearance is totally inverted. The Big 3 by far have the best chances moving forward.

I've seen the Bolinger in person.  It's what happens when someone gets an EV powertrain and has a bunch of flat sheet metal, an arc welder, a JC Whitney Catalog, and a few rolls of remnant office carpeting laying around.  They had a booth at the L.A. show the same year the Rivian debuted.... and I was like, "You can't be serious.... "

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've seen the Bolinger in person.  It's what happens when someone gets an EV powertrain and has a bunch of flat sheet metal, an arc welder, a JC Whitney Catalog, and a few rolls of remnant office carpeting laying around.  They had a booth at the L.A. show the same year the Rivian debuted.... and I was like, "You can't be serious.... "

Kind of wondered if it would be like that....from the photos I've seen, it looks like a kit car..very crude.

[A Horse With No Name]

26 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Kind of wondered if it would be like that....from the photos I've seen, it looks like a kit car..very crude.

It is astonishingly crude....and at $125 grand....lots of other options exist. 

Interior is 1975 CJ-5 plain....will not sell in the modern market. 

 

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

It is astonishingly crude....and at $125 grand....lots of other options exist. 

Interior is 1975 CJ-5 plain....will not sell in the modern market. 

 

$125k would buy a nicely equipped Range Rover...

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

$125k would buy a nicely equipped Range Rover...

Yep. And both the Range Rover and Bolinger would be an unmitigated quality disaster. 

[Robert Hall]

7 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Yep. And both the Range Rover and Bolinger would be an unmitigated quality disaster. 

Which is why Range Rovers are better to be leased, not owned...that great British quality.

[balthazar]

^ You still have to deal with that poor quality, despite who's name is on the title.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

"You can't be serious.... "

It seemed totally obvious via the images, but thanks for the verification. Bolinger will be the Powell Sport Wagon of the '20s.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

^ You still have to deal with that poor quality, despite who's name is on the title.

It seemed totally obvious via the images, but thanks for the verification. Bolinger will be the Powell Sport Wagon of the '20s.

Or the Bricklin....remember those?

 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

It is astonishingly crude....and at $125 grand....lots of other options exist. 

Interior is 1975 CJ-5 plain....will not sell in the modern market. 

 

The Bolinger is what Gru from Minions would drive if they ever did a live action version of the movie.... except it would be nuclear fission powered or something. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Worth a watch...

 

[regfootball]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:28 AM, David said:

Battery tech is moving away from precious rare earth elements and that is proven in a variety of new solid state battery production that comes online next year for a wide variety of EVs that will be produced next year and moving forward.

No Charging Network, please state where you actually live as I am willing to bet there are far more charging options than you are aware of or willing to acknowledge. Cold weather issues have been made moot. How you will ask, easy just like ICE auto's loose MPG efficiency in cold weather, batteries do too, to offset this, we have Hydro thermal management and that has been proven well by Tesla and GM in their current EVs where people have lost some range but over all still have plenty to get out and about to work, errands, etc.

You are right on it will take time and yet we have seen where properly motivated and supported, you can change the masses to embrace change.

NORWAY leads the world with over 60% of new auto sales being EVs for the last 2 years and climbing. Yes a small country compared to the US, but a great example of how they have embraced change for a better healthy life for the MASSES.

Here are sites that track where one can charge their EV.

https://www.plugshare.com/

https://chargehub.com/en/charging-stations-map.html

If you do not like 3rd party mapping sites, then use the Governments own location site that shows the 100's of thousands of charging locations and growing.

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_stations.html

charge times, inadequate,

all the new tehcnologies, you mention, are they AFFORDABLE for the masses yet?

embrace change? change is good, if its convenient, cheap, and dependable FOR THE CONSUMER.

263.6 million

 

Overall, there were an estimated 263.6 million registered vehicles in the United States in 2015, most of which were passenger vehicles. This number, along with the average age of vehicles, has increased steadily since 1960

right now if if annual vehicle sales is between 6 and 7% replacement each year, it will be many years before many purchase their next vehicle.  Vehicles can often have 15-20 year life.  So, in 2020 you cannot legislate a rapid changeover to eliminate fuel vehicles.  Especially when the argument you use is thin, and so many vehicles are on the road already.  This is what we call, let the market take care of it.  Now, the government may provide some subisidies for electric propulsion technology and that is fair due to 'diversity of energy sources'.  Ethanol was subsidized (too much) and neither should electric.  It all comes back to where does the electricity come from, and anyone who is a realist knows that our country's complete energy needs cannot be reliably provided from -renewable-(cough) energy sources anytime soon.  The only way you can force renewable sources on people right now is through forced taxation.  

And then, just when they pull the plug on gas vehicles, the prices of the electrics will be kept high so THE MASSES cannot have personal mobility.  Gas vehicles on the existing infrastructure allow more people the chance at personal freedom and mobility, which is what has always set our country apart.  Forcing electric technology and cutting off gas is really a veiled attempt at restricting personal mobility in your own car.  Because they can not roll it out conviently and afordable without taxing the crap out of everyone by legislative fiat rather than the market, just yet.

And sorry, the cold weather issues are not taken care of yet.  won't be for while for the masses.  20-40% range loss quite common.  In a northern state and in particular in driving through blizzards, you can't afford to risk it in an electric until the convenient and frequent charge network like gas is built.  

I'm not opposed to electrics.  I almost got a Volt before, but it was too small.  Almost no one builds a truly spacious medium priced EV.  I like the Bolt, but its a toy, its too small.  Malibu and Fusion hybrids I looked at.  Hybrid is a great option but they have to start pricing the hybrids as cheap as the gas models if they want them to sell.  I would love to have an electric actually, but not as my main vehicle right now.

Norway is almost an irrelevant country.  They are very small and quite honestly are a pretty homogenous country, culturally.  And they have profited most from oil as anyone ever.

Edited November 26, 2020 by regfootball

[A Horse With No Name]

22 hours ago, David said:

Saw an update on Bloomberg this morning that Nissan is moving forward with tying up with Hercules EV pickup as I posted above in the list of EV pickups. Nissan seems to want to move this forward asap.

Good. the more the merrier. 

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:02 AM, ocnblu said:

Enough to fill a pretty small (albeit scary, environmentally) junkyard.  So much comedic value in this ^ post.