Industry News: Tesla EV share of U.S. market tumbles to 50% as EV Sales Surpass 300,000 in Q3

[David]

Cox Automotive group released their Q3 2023 EV sales for the automotive industry in the United States showing that in Q3 EV sales jumped past 300,000 for the first time in the U.S. market. EV sales through September reached just over 873,000 which puts the market on track to surpass 1 million EV sales. This milestone is estimated to be reached some time in November.

Q3 EV sales estimates are 313,086 EV sales, a 49.8% increase over the same period last year. This is an increase from the 298,039 EVs sold in Q2. Sales of EVs posted noticeable gains over 2022 with Hyundai, Nissan, Volvo and Mercedes having a 200% increase in EV sales thanks to the new products they released to market.

Total industry sales in Q3 showed EVs had a 7.9% market share. This is up from 6.1% a year ago and 7.2% in Q2 2023. As pointed out by Cox, EV sales have now had 13 straight quarters of increased sales.

EV transaction prices were down in Q3 compared to a year ago with most of this due to Tesla slashing prices to increase sales. Prices are now down 25% across the board for all EVs year over year. While price cuts helped Tesla grow their sales which is showing a 19.5% year over year increase and an industry overall growth rate of 16.3% this does come with the downside that Tesla has lost market share hitting 50% as more EV options from competitors hits the sales room.  Tesla had a 70 plus % market share ending 2022, closed out Q1 2023 at 62% and now closes Q3 with a 50% market share.

German luxury makers showed rapid EV sales as Audi, BMW, and Mercedes showed a tripling of sales year over year with Audi posting the largest increase of a 94% sales increase in EV sales.

While we have the 100% club of Fisker, Rivian, Tesla and Vinfast who only sell EVs, the rest of the automotive industry is a mix of ICE and EV sales and as such was led by BMW who closed out Q3 with 15.6% of their auto sales being EVs in the U.S..

In 2020 the U.S. had sold just 250,000 EVs with the bulk of that being Tesla. Three years later we are primed for EV sales crossing 1 million sold. Tesla still is the undisputed leader in EV sales, but their market share is dwindling.

The coming flood of EV models over the next 18 to 24 months have analyst forecasting a doubling of EV models offered and a major shift in marketshare for every auto company.

Full details of the sales report can be read here:

Q3-2023-Kelley-Blue-Book-Electric-Vehicle-Sales-Report.pdf

The key takeaway for Q3 is that EV transaction prices are down 22% with an average transaction price of $50,683 paid in September. This on top of other companies rapid increase in sales such as Rivian who delivered 15,564 EVs for Q3 representing a 126% increase year over year. GM began deliveries of the Silverado EV with 18 units delivered at the end of September.

 

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[smk4565]

Tesla needs the Cybertruck to ramp up production because pickups are such a huge segment so are off road vehicles.  And 3 row SUV is a huge segment, as Tesla goes mainstream they need a 3 row SUV that isn’t $80-90,000 which means either coming up with a new models or you take the S/X which in base model trim have 670 horsepower, and make less powerful, lower range versions, maybe single motor versions that get the price of those to like $59,000.  A base Model X has more horsepower than a BMW M5, you don’t really need that much to take kids to soccer practice and go to the grocery store.

 

The telling sign on that chart is Honda isn’t even on the board and Toyota at .5%.   Long way to go.  I think as EV prices keep dropping, $7500 credit at time of purchase and the public charging network will probably double in size by 2025, the flood gates open on EV sales in 2025-26.  Those that are ready will win, those that aren’t will lose and some of these companies will be gone in 2030.

[oldshurst442]

The Cybertruck wont do jack to stop Tesla's slip in market share.  It wont even help in maintaining it either.

Too many EVs from different manufacturers are going to hit the market like a bullet train. Many model EVs that are fresher and newer and most importantly, shinier then ANYTHING Tesla has got in its inventory INCLUDING the Cybertruck.  The Cybertruck is old news by now despite it going on sale and delivered last month or two ago.  LOL. The Silverado EV also just went on sale.  The F150 EV has been on sale for some time.  The Cybertruck has got too many established competitors (Ford and GM) in the truck market even if EV for the Cybertruck to mean anything to anybody. 

And guess what?   The RAM EV is not available just yet. Just wait until THAT model goes on sale.   Seriously...you actually think Tesla will make a dent in truck sales?    The conservative anti-EV people hate anything EV.  Chevy, Ford and Dodge will have a phoquing hard time to convince these people to buy into them. And these folk are HARDCORE Detroit consumers.  They wont buy Tesla.  They HATE Tesla.  LOL.  If they WILL buy an EV truck, it WILL be from their favorite brand. But you will have to pry their internal combustion truck from their cold dead hands before that happens.  But it will be an EV truck from Detroit. Not from California.  The Cybertruck wont even make Tesla Model S-3-X-Y owners budge.  Oh...some will bite, but Tesla's shine is not nearly as bright as it once was.  ESPCIALLY when Ford, GM, Stellantis and others have JOINED forces to USE Tesla's supercharger network.  LOL.  THAT partnership goes both ways.  It solidifies Tesla as THE premier electricity provider and perhaps enhance their EV image...BUT...when Tesla has over riped fruit on their kitchen table and Elon's mouth just molds the fruit away

 

people will buy elsewhere.  When the EV charger issue for everybody else has now been rectified by them using Tesla chargers, now people have less worry for charging their non-Tesla EV.

Telsa had an almost unsurmountable  grip on EV market share just a short 5 years ago.  But now...too many competitors are fighting for possession and their EV tech is just as good as Tesla's. But with shinier newer vehicles. 

The moron allowed for his competiton to catch up to him.  He not only dropped the football, he fumbled it and we dont quite know just yet if Tesla recoverd the ball, or if the opposing teams have possession...  

 

 

Sure, there will be plenty of automakers that wont make it.  But that also INCLUDES Tesla.

Tesla DESPERATLEY needs 2nd gens of the S-3-X-Y line up.   What  Tesla does NOT need is a Roadster 2.0 or a Cybertruck.  Those were needed 3 years ago. Those would have solidified Tesla dominance.  Those never came.   X and Mars were more important to him.  

LOL

When all of the automotive world has shifted their excitement for hybrid old guard sportscars...you just know Tesla has lost their shine just a little bit...

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

What Tesla really needs is the sub $30,000 car.   Because most car companies are bailing on low end cars, Toyota's North American President even said he wanted to push the average transaction price of a Toyota over $50k.  Which to me sounds like throwing away half their customer base.  Ford wants to get rid of the Escape to focus on high margin vehicles, because after they cut cars, they now need to cut crossovers.  Mazda wants to move up market and focus on $50,000 CX-90 SUVS.  The door is wide open for someone, aka Tesla to come in with a mass market car at an affordable price.

[oldshurst442]

Only Tesla?

Everybody needs to sell $30 000 vehicles. Be it ICE or EV. 

North American consumer goods and services have gone through the roof price wise and wages have stagnated.  All those manufacturers that want to bail on affordable cars will soon find out that pricey cars will rot on their dealership lots.  And...doom their existence that much faster. 

Without straying too far away from the crux of this discussion...Tesla needs 2nd gen of their S-3-X-Y line-up.  They dont need a $30 000.  They would be going downmarket for no reason.  They have already established themselves and their image as premier EV makers.  They have established themselves in a price market where people do not think twice giving up their hard earned cash.  And that price range is $50 000-$100 000.     All Elon has to do is make sure the 2nd gen of their S-3-X-Y line-up is better than the 1st gen in every possible metric and let marketing do their job properly and they will maintian their market share quite easily.    But they need those 2nd gens right now...   Elon is foolin' around NEEDLESSLY with that Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0.   If he had thought things through and ADVANCED his EV tech INSTEAD of putting all that money and energy into Twitter/X and Mars...Tesla tech would have continued to be 10 years ahead of the competition and threats from Lucid and Rivian and GM and Volks/Porsche and the Chinese companies would have been at bay.  Cute projects like the Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0 could then be started after.  

Instead, its Ford and Dodge that truly re-imagined what the electric pick-up truck could and will be, and GM produced the concept dream poster truck  made into production toy for the rich Hummer pick-up and SUV.  And it was Rivian that swooped in with their vision the electric lifestyle offroader.    

The dream of going 0-60 in 1.9 seconds in electric style with the Roadster 2.0 has also been messed with because Elon had other things to do.  And Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette and everybody else that has entered the elctric world, be it with hybrid thought or pure electrics, they all pushed Tesla aside. 

 Ill repeat,   when Elon was selling us his visions, these electric visions of speed and innovation and re-imagining new ways and change the old ways, every other OEM on the planet had no freaken idea where to start with EV development.  

And here we are today in 2023, Elon has pissed that lead away.  And more market erosion will happen.  

Elon could price drop his current EVs, but Elon NEEDS that revenue.  He cant afford to drop those prices.  Sure, he sells more cars  this way and maintains somewhat that 50% marketshare threshold.  But monies arent coming in that Tesla DESPERATELY needs.   

100% EV makers dont have any other kind of vehicle to sell.

GM could price drop the EVs to maintain equal prices with Tesla.  But GM ALSO sells ICE.  GM has revenue coming either way.  Ditto for Ford and VW and everybody else that produces their own EVs but produces ICE as well... 

GM  has a history of 100 plus years of going toe to toe with price wars with its rivals.   What Tesla is facing now about dropping prices to maintain market share, and GM, Ford AND Stellantis...ALL of Stellantis not just Chrysler, have been through this SEVERAL times and they know that this kind of thing NEVER ends good...   Tesla is going to feel lots of pain.  

Tesla NEEDS 2nd gens of their S-3-X-Y cars.    I CANT stress that enough...   

Tesla does NOT need to sell lower priced cars IF 2nd gen of their  S-3-X-Y cars go on sale.  Tesls has THAT vehicle price range ALL to themselves.  But...they NEED those 2nd gens right now for them to continue to own that price range!!! 

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Only Tesla?

Everybody needs to sell $30 000 vehicles. Be it ICE or EV. 

North American consumer goods and services have gone through the roof price wise and wages have stagnated.  All those manufacturers that want to bail on affordable cars will soon find out that pricey cars will rot on their dealership lots.  And...doom their existence that much faster. 

Without straying too far away from the crux of this discussion...Tesla needs 2nd gen of their S-3-X-Y line-up.  They dont need a $30 000.  They would be going downmarket for no reason.  They have already established themselves and their image as premier EV makers.  They have established themselves in a price market where people do not think twice giving up their hard earned cash.  And that price range is $50 000-$100 000.     All Elon has to do is make sure the 2nd gen of their S-3-X-Y line-up is better than the 1st gen in every possible metric and let marketing do their job properly and they will maintian their market share quite easily.    But they need those 2nd gens right now...   Elon is foolin' around NEEDLESSLY with that Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0.   If he had thought things through and ADVANCED his EV tech INSTEAD of putting all that money and energy into Twitter/X and Mars...Tesla tech would have continued to be 10 years ahead of the competition and threats from Lucid and Rivian and GM and Volks/Porsche and the Chinese companies would have been at bay.  Cute projects like the Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0 could then be started after.  

Instead, its Ford and Dodge that truly re-imagined what the electric pick-up truck could and will be, and GM produced the concept dream poster truck  made into production toy for the rich Hummer pick-up and SUV.  And it was Rivian that swooped in with their vision the electric lifestyle offroader.    

The dream of going 0-60 in 1.9 seconds in electric style with the Roadster 2.0 has also been messed with because Elon had other things to do.  And Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette and everybody else that has entered the elctric world, be it with hybrid thought or pure electrics, they all pushed Tesla aside. 

 Ill repeat,   when Elon was selling us his visions, these electric visions of speed and innovation and re-imagining new ways and change the old ways, every other OEM on the planet had no freaken idea where to start with EV development.  

And here we are today in 2023, Elon has pissed that lead away.  And more market erosion will happen.  

Elon could price drop his current EVs, but Elon NEEDS that revenue.  He cant afford to drop those prices.  Sure, he sells more cars  this way and maintains somewhat that 50% marketshare threshold.  But monies arent coming in that Tesla DESPERATELY needs.   

100% EV makers dont have any other kind of vehicle to sell.

GM could price drop the EVs to maintain equal prices with Tesla.  But GM ALSO sells ICE.  GM has revenue coming either way.  Ditto for Ford and VW and everybody else that produces their own EVs but produces ICE as well... 

GM  has a history of 100 plus years of going toe to toe with price wars with its rivals.   What Tesla is facing now about dropping prices to maintain market share, and GM, Ford AND Stellantis...ALL of Stellantis not just Chrysler, have been through this SEVERAL times and they know that this kind of thing NEVER ends good...   Tesla is going to feel lots of pain.  

Tesla NEEDS 2nd gens of their S-3-X-Y cars.    I CANT stress that enough...   

Tesla does NOT need to sell lower priced cars IF 2nd gen of their  S-3-X-Y cars go on sale.  Tesls has THAT vehicle price range ALL to themselves.  But...they NEED those 2nd gens right now for them to continue to own that price range!!! 

Yes they all need a $30,000 EV but once the Bolt is killed off I don’t see who is going to make one outside of Tesla.  The Kia Niro EV is $40,000, the Hyundai Kona EV is $35,000 and these are entry level compacts.  Doesn’t really seem like a good deal and no $7500 credit for them.   
 

GM might come back with Bolt 2.0 at $30k but GM loses money on the Bolt, just like all these car companies outside of Tesla lose money on EV’s so I think the chances of affordable EV’s aren’t great.

And it seems like car companies want to kill the sub $30,000 ICE cars too.

And yes Elon has mad mistakes and wastes time with Twitter but at the same time his company is worth $800 billion and the other big car companies are worth about $50 billion so he must have done something right.

And back to Tesla the refresh Model 3 is on sale in China and Europe now, so we should have it next year with a Model Y refresh right after.  S and X do need a next generation and I would make them more mass market, 3 row SUV is a huge segment, but 1,000 hp 3 row SUV for $100k is not a big segment.  
 

Tesla wants to sell 20 million cars a year, they have to attack the sub $40,000 price tier to get there.  There aren’t enough $50-100k price buyers to get that kind of volume. 

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Yes they all need a $30,000 EV but once the Bolt is killed off I don’t see who is going to make one outside of Tesla.

The Bolt is not killed off.

The Bolt will live on as an Ultium platformed vehicle and most probably be sold at the same price it is now.

 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44639082/chevrolet-bolt-ev-second-generation-details/

• There will be a second-generation Chevrolet Bolt EV, General Motors CEO Mary Barra confirmed today during an earnings conference call.
• Earlier this year, General Motors had proclaimed the Bolt dead as it prepared the hatchback's factory for a transition to assembling electric pickups.
• But the Bolt is not dead and is in fact getting better, with Barra revealing that the second-gen Bolt will use GM's newer Ultium battery technology.

 

Also, the Equinox EV  is also said to be starting  at around the 30 000 mark as well.  

 

https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/equinox-ev

 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

GM might come back with Bolt 2.0 at $30k

 GM WILL come back with a Bolt 2.0

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

but GM loses money on the Bolt,

The Bolt 1.0 was the only vehicle on that platform.  Then the EUV came. But still no economies of scale.  The Bolt 2.0 has 23 or 24 new EVs coming to help spread the costs of those batteries.  $100 000 plus Escalades and Silverados.  $350 000 Celestiqs.  $60 000 Lyriqs.  $50 000 Blazers and all kinds of Buicks not to mention the two Chevrolets called Bolt and Equinox @ 30K to help with those costs...   

Also...Honda will be using this platform which will also aid in keeping those costs down...  

Therefore...

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

just like all these car companies outside of Tesla lose money on EV’s

GM may NOT be like others to lose money on EVs...   

Also, Tesla is NOT making the money it NEEDS  BECAUSE they DISCOUNT their EVs BECAUSE their market share is eroding.   Classic automobile scenario...      

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

but at the same time his company is worth $800 billion

Worthless... 

All smoke and mirrors. 

Tesla is waaaaaaaaaay OVERvalued and THAT might bite MANY people in the ass.  All kinds of investors and banks that have enjoyed the riches of OVER evaluating Tesla all these years.   ESPECIALLY if Tesla's market share keeps eroding and Tesla continues on discounting their cars.    Reailty WILL eventually settle in with Tesla's evalution...   The chickens WILL come home to roost...

I REALLY cant stress enough Tesla's need for 2nd generation of their S-3-X-Y  line-up. 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And back to Tesla the refresh Model 3 is on sale in China and Europe now, so we should have it next year with a Model Y refresh right after.

 

Refreshes mean nothing when EVERYBODY will be offering NEW shinier and BETTER products...

Take the Equinox EV for example.   Or the Honda products that are the Equinox's platform brother.   

The Bolt 2.0

The Buicks

All those and JUST from GM will give Tesla headaches. ESPECIALLY when GM products and their owners WILL be able to USE Tesla's supercharger network...  

Also...GM will be building their OWN network too.  WITH BMW, Honda, Hyundai-KIA, Stellantis, MERCEDES-BENZ... 

 

https://news.gm.ca/en/home/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/ca/en/2023/jul/0726_seven.html

• Seven major global automakers – BMW Group, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz Group, Stellantis NV – will create an unprecedented new charging network joint venture that will significantly expand access to high-powered charging in North America
• Targeting to install at least 30,000 high-powered charge points in urban and highway locations to ensure customers can charge whenever and wherever they need
• With a focus on delivering an elevated customer experience, the network will provide reliability, high-powered charging capability, digital integration, appealing locations, various amenities while charging, and use renewable energy
• Charging stations will be accessible to all EV customers, offering both Combined Charging System (CCS) and North American Charging Standard (NACS) connectors
• First stations are scheduled to open in the summer of 2024

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla wants to sell 20 million cars a year

Elon also wants to colonize Mars.  There is no oxygen nor water in space and on Mars.  So...

 

[smk4565]

52 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Bolt is not killed off.

The Bolt will live on as an Ultium platformed vehicle and most probably be sold at the same price it is now.

Also, the Equinox EV  is also said to be starting  at around the 30 000 mark as well.  

 

https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/equinox-ev

 

 GM WILL come back with a Bolt 2.0

The Bolt 1.0 was the only vehicle on that platform.  Then the EUV came. But still no economies of scale.  The Bolt 2.0 has 23 or 24 new EVs coming to help spread the costs of those batteries.  $100 000 plus Escalades and Silverados.  $350 000 Celestiqs.  $60 000 Lyriqs.  $50 000 Blazers and all kinds of Buicks not to mention the two Chevrolets called Bolt and Equinox @ 30K to help with those costs...   

Also...Honda will be using this platform which will also aid in keeping those costs down...  

Therefore...

GM may NOT be like others to lose money on EVs...   

Also, Tesla is NOT making the money it NEEDS  BECAUSE they DISCOUNT their EVs BECAUSE their market share is eroding.   Classic automobile scenario...      

Worthless... 

All smoke and mirrors. 

Tesla is waaaaaaaaaay OVERvalued and THAT might bite MANY people in the ass.  All kinds of investors and banks that have enjoyed the riches of OVER evaluating Tesla all these years.   ESPECIALLY if Tesla's market share keeps eroding and Tesla continues on discounting their cars.    Reailty WILL eventually settle in with Tesla's evalution...   The chickens WILL come home to roost...

I REALLY cant stress enough Tesla's need for 2nd generation of their S-3-X-Y  line-up. 

 

Refreshes mean nothing when EVERYBODY will be offering NEW shinier and BETTER products...

Take the Equinox EV for example.   Or the Honda products that are the Equinox's platform brother.   

The Bolt 2.0

The Buicks

All those and JUST from GM will give Tesla headaches. ESPECIALLY when GM products and their owners WILL be able to USE Tesla's supercharger network...  

I know the Bolt is coming back, I was only questioning whether it will be under $30k when it comes back.  And I doubt the Equinox comes in at $30k, Mary Bara is the one that said they can't make a profit on an EV that costs under $40,000.  

I agree scale will help GM, assuming, they can scale all that up, the Ultium ramp up has been pretty slow, and the Ultium platform's battery tech is behind what Tesla already has and it's heavy.  And GM isn't alone in that, Ford and Mercedes EVs are too heavy also.   

Mercedes EQE 500 is 5,670 lbs, Cadillac Lyric AWD is 5,810 lbs, and the larger Tesla Model X is 5,185 lbs.   The Lyric needs about a 600 lb weight loss, and that is in the Ultium platform.  

GM/Honda will probably have the scale to drill some cost out, but I don't see how Nissan does, or a small company like Mazda that doesn't even have an EV (since they killed off that compliance car they had) gets there.  And I don't see how Hyundai/Kia get people to spend $50-75k on EV's when their ICE cars are more like $25-40k.  They aren't even targeting their existing customers.

Tesla makes more dollars of profit than GM or Ford, let alone they have the best margins out there, plus Tesla is just as much a software and energy company as they are a car company.  Tesla already has mostly every other car company buying software off them for the chargers and using their charge network, won't be long before Tesla is selling Full Self Driving to other car companies at $12,000 per car and they'll have to pay Tesla for it just like they had to pay Tesla for their charge network.

[riviera74]

GM/Honda may NOT have enough scale to cut costs enough; they may have to pair up with Ford to really cut costs.

Tesla does need a 2.0 for all their current products since few NEW car buyers want something they could have purchased two years ago.

[David]

Stock price of Tesla is a future glimps of where the company is going.

Hyundai, Kia, Genesis is hitting EV far better than Tesla and has newer tech and models. Tesla is going to be hurting by 2025 at the rate Musk is destroying the company due to his distractions. Even stockholders are now calling for a new CEO to run Tesla.

Tesla Investor Calls for a New CEO As As Musk Shift Focus to Twitter (businessinsider.com)

Ford clearly has mis-read their own buyers which is mainly blue-collar workers and have not bought into the EV thing. GM sells to higher income folks and those more tech savvy. Ford is going to have issues over the next few years as they have not properly planned for EVs and battery production, so costs remain very high unlike GM which did plan.

At least they are not Toyota that bet on Hydrogen and lost. Korea is going to eat the Japanese auto business for EVs.

[David]

@oldshurst442 @smk4565 Cyber truck is still NOT in production yet, the ones seen are preproduction. No delivery to actual customers yet. A few to employees they are calling customers, but I would say more like internal beta testing.

Tesla Cybertruck fleet spotted ahead of delivery event announcement | Electrek

9hrs ago people are spotting small groups of the trucks covered up. I doubt these are production as production are never covered up like this but test mules are.

As per the comments from the Tesla Fans, 9 covered trucks is not D-Day of mass production but maybe a stunt for Q3 earnings since Tesla could very well miss their forecast numbers. Oct 18th is Earnings day. Expect a cybertruck announcement then, but Musk has already said retail deliveries this year will be minimal, 2024 will be the ramp up year. 

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, David said:

Stock price of Tesla is a future glimps of where the company is going.

Hyundai, Kia, Genesis is hitting EV far better than Tesla and has newer tech and models. Tesla is going to be hurting by 2025 at the rate Musk is destroying the company due to his distractions. Even stockholders are now calling for a new CEO to run Tesla.

Tesla Investor Calls for a New CEO As As Musk Shift Focus to Twitter (businessinsider.com)

Ford clearly has mis-read their own buyers which is mainly blue-collar workers and have not bought into the EV thing. GM sells to higher income folks and those more tech savvy. Ford is going to have issues over the next few years as they have not properly planned for EVs and battery production, so costs remain very high unlike GM which did plan.

At least they are not Toyota that bet on Hydrogen and lost. Korea is going to eat the Japanese auto business for EVs.

Hyundai/Kia make about $800 profit per car.  They are one of the worst car companies in the world in profit margin.  
 

Yes they make some good vehicles and are ahead of the Japanese on EV’s.  But there is a Hyundai dealer near me with several Ioniq 5/6’s on the lot with sticker prices of $58,000 that are just rotting there, I think between OEM and dealer discounts they have about $10k off sticker, but that is the only way to even try to sell those.  No one wants a $58,000 Hyundai midsize sedan.

When the $35,000 msrp Ioniq 6 arrives then game on, but GM is going to have a sub $40,000 Equinox EV that is larger than the Ioniq 5 and gets $7500 off.  I think buyers will take the Equinox at $32,500 after rebate vs $50,000 Ioniq 5.

[Drew Dowdell]

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Hyundai/Kia make about $800 profit per car.  They are one of the worst car companies in the world in profit margin.  
 

Yes they make some good vehicles and are ahead of the Japanese on EV’s.  But there is a Hyundai dealer near me with several Ioniq 5/6’s on the lot with sticker prices of $58,000 that are just rotting there, I think between OEM and dealer discounts they have about $10k off sticker, but that is the only way to even try to sell those.  No one wants a $58,000 Hyundai midsize sedan.

When the $35,000 msrp Ioniq 6 arrives then game on, but GM is going to have a sub $40,000 Equinox EV that is larger than the Ioniq 5 and gets $7500 off.  I think buyers will take the Equinox at $32,500 after rebate vs $50,000 Ioniq 5.

I agree that the Ioniq 5s aren't priced appropriately, but the Ioniq 6 seems about right.  I think you'll see the price slide up significantly on the Equinox EV. The base Blazer EV has already been canceled, so much of your price guessing there is likely inaccurate.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I agree that the Ioniq 5s aren't priced appropriately, but the Ioniq 6 seems about right.  I think you'll see the price slide up significantly on the Equinox EV. The base Blazer EV has already been canceled, so much of your price guessing there is likely inaccurate.

I think the $30k Equinox never happens, but I think they can undercut the iD4, BZ4X and the Ioniq 5 in price.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I think the $30k Equinox never happens, but I think they can undercut the iD4, BZ4X and the Ioniq 5 in price.

It's no challenge to undercut the Ioniq 5. It should have been a Genesis Sport hatch instead.   I think they'll match it pretty close to the ID.4 if only because they'll be directly cross-shopped on size.

[smk4565]

48 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's no challenge to undercut the Ioniq 5. It should have been a Genesis Sport hatch instead.   I think they'll match it pretty close to the ID.4 if only because they'll be directly cross-shopped on size.

The Equinox EV is 9 inches longer than an iD4, 4 inches longer than a Tiguan, 7 inches longer than a gas Equinox.  Not sure why it is so big, but the Equinox EV is actually larger then a Toyota Venza or Ford Edge, so I’d call it a mid-size SUV.  Which makes me think Chevy over sized these EV’s and Equinox and Blazer are too close.

[Drew Dowdell]

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Equinox EV is 9 inches longer than an iD4, 4 inches longer than a Tiguan, 7 inches longer than a gas Equinox.  Not sure why it is so big, but the Equinox EV is actually larger then a Toyota Venza or Ford Edge, so I’d call it a mid-size SUV.  Which makes me think Chevy over sized these EV’s and Equinox and Blazer are too close.

I've looked at both, and I think it is more of a content and styling difference than a size difference re 'Nox v. Blazer.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've looked at both, and I think it is more of a content and styling difference than a size difference re 'Nox v. Blazer.

They are very close in size, which doesn't seem to make sense, when you can just offer 1 vehicle with multiple power levels and battery pack sizes.  And the Lyric is nearly as big as some 3 row SUVs but it is only a 2 row.  And the Buick and GMC versions aren't even here yet, it seems like GM wants to have 6 or 7 mid-size electric SUVs all trampling on top of each other, just like the good ole days of 5 W-body sedans that are all the same with a different grille.

[ccap41]

On 10/17/2023 at 11:57 AM, smk4565 said:

I think the $30k Equinox never happens,

You're rght! 

[oldshurst442]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You're rght! 

 yes he is!!!

 And I was wrong...

Bet you that NONE of you are able to admit when you are wrong though.   

Ive done that several times. 

Most of you like to troll around though... 

[ccap41]

23 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 yes he is!!!

 And I was wrong...

Bet you that NONE of you are able to admit when you are wrong though.   

Ive done that several times. 

Most of you like to troll around though... 

I absolutely do and literally yesterday I pointed out I was wrong on dates. 

Need me to tag you or do you wanna feel nice and warm with what you feel is a "gotcha moment"?  

[oldshurst442]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I absolutely do and literally yesterday I pointed out I was wrong on dates. 

Need me to tag you or do you wanna feel nice and warm with what you feel is a "gotcha moment"?  

You think that was a me tryna get you on a gotcha moment?

lol

nah.  
that was me explaining that some of us dont admit when we are wrong. May or may NOT include you. 
 

But.  Seems strange to me that NONE  youse saw that the ev range IMPROVED. 

Seems even stranger that ya’ll jumped on @David but failed to realize the marketing dilemna that GM may or may NOT have concerning 2 EVs in that 30 thousand threshold. ONLY @smk4565 

SAW it coming but here you are, virtue signaling on David, me trying to prop up SMK about a shyttty stanced opinion you and Grouchy have about a misdirected price hike drama oriented posts. 
Hence me calling you and grouchy on trolling.

Am I trolling?

Damn right I am!!!

Grouchy went all phoquey on me for calling him out on his hypocrital Toyota stance.

Irony of him trying to call out David for hypocrisy…

Enjoy the first day of November.

Love from a Montreal Greek boy who may or may NOT think he is French and living rent free in Grouchy’s head in Canada somewheres…

 

 

[ccap41]

16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You think that was a me tryna get you on a gotcha moment?

There was zero other reason to point out your superiority in that comment. So, yes. 

 

17 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

But.  Seems strange to me that NONE  youse saw that the ev range IMPROVED. 

I did know that. That doesn't matter. They have other trims specifically FOR that. Well, they used to. Now they just charge more for the basic version, too. 

 

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Seems even stranger that ya’ll jumped on @David but failed to realize the marketing dilemna that GM may or may NOT have concerning 2 EVs in that 30 thousand threshold. ONLY @smk4565 

I don't care about that though and that wasn't even what this was about. It was the bait by GM by throwing out the phrase "AROUND $30,000". 

 

19 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Hence me calling you and grouchy on trolling.

You and your favorite claim. You're as bad as FoxNews or CNN with throwing out buzzwords.

You know to troll, one has to have intent to troll. I didn't make GM make any claim. I didn't make them make any price changes. I don't think calling them out for their intentional vagueness in any way is trolling. 

22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Irony of him trying to call out David for hypocrisy…

I don't understand how one could not see his hypocrisy when it comes to GM. 

He's called a CX-9 cramped but a Bolt as roomy?!? I mean, seriously, do you not see that? 

[David]

50 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I don't understand how one could not see his hypocrisy when it comes to GM. 

He's called a CX-9 cramped but a Bolt as roomy?!? I mean, seriously, do you not see that? 

As one that has been in both and driven both when your 6'6" tall, 300lbs. You then have a right to call a CX-9 cramped when it is and your legs are pressed into the dash as a passenger cause the seats do not use the space efficiently, but then in a Bolt, I have inches in front of my knees. So yes, my experience of living with a CX-9 for 2 weeks on a family vacation does give me the right to call it cramped. 

You all are more average size for North America and forget to put yourself in the shoes of those that do not fit the general population. When a subcompact gives more room for a big person in the front and back over a medium sized SUV, then the subcompact is roomier.

This is not me being blindly GM supporting, but actually calling out poor packaging of a mid-size SUV by Mazda compared to a much smaller auto from GM.

Sadly, most Japanese autos are built around much smaller people due to the country and average size of the people.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

You and your favorite claim. You're as bad as FoxNews or CNN with throwing out buzzwords.

Don’t bother explaining yourself to the irony challenged. It’s why I’ve said squat to him. A troll telling others they are trolling is still…a troll, for example. 

[surreal1272]

 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

He's called a CX-9 cramped but a Bolt as roomy?!? I mean, seriously, do you not see that?

While giving him a pass on this in the past, I believe that was made in error. I mean, based on these very basic stats between the Bolt and CX-9, it’s possible….

 

…that he is not telling the whole truth here lol. The CX-9 is larger in literally every regard and no amount of “packaging” changes those facts. 
 

But hey, maybe my skinnier 6’5” cousin was just sitting in that Bolt wrong recently lol. My guess is he was lacking K-Y. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Am I trolling?

Damn right I am!!!

 

LOL

Im honest in that too.

Grouchy is grouchy but wont admit to the reasons of his grouchiness.

 

[surreal1272]

I seem to recall a certain Tesla fan raving on about profits and market values recently. Guessing they are looking for some seasoning to go with the crow today. Everyone that wasn’t locked into Musks every word knew this was coming. Tesla’s challenge is how they respond to the competition here and in places like China where BYD is coming up fast and hot. Zero sympathy for Elon or his ilk. 

[ccap41]

I know the Tesla fanboys didn't want to admit it, but this was just inevitable. There was no way they could sustain a 60% market share when there are a dozen new EVs hitting the streets every year in all sorts of different categories. 

I don't think Tesla is going away or anything but the market share just wasn't sustainable with everything new coming out. 

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You're rght! 

Now I wonder if the $34,995 Equinox will ever exist, since only the RS is available at launch, and I don't think the 1LT will ever be made for 2024 model year, then for 2025, all of a sudden the 1LT will go from $34,995 to $38,995.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I seem to recall a certain Tesla fan raving on about profits and market values recently. Guessing they are looking for some seasoning to go with the crow today. Everyone that wasn’t locked into Musks every word knew this was coming. Tesla’s challenge is how they respond to the competition here and in places like China where BYD is coming up fast and hot. Zero sympathy for Elon or his ilk. 

Tesla's challenge is China and BYD for sure, and also high interest rates and macro economic factors that impact everyone.  

Tesla's other challenge is only have 4 products, 2 of which are in the $75-100,000 range and have a base level 670 hp motors.  The number of people shopping for 670 hp is a rather small part of the market, like less than 1%.  That leaves 1 sedan and 1 crossover.  So clearly they need a cheaper vehicle, a pick up, an affordable 3 row SUV, maybe a van, the roadster, etc, to fill out a model line up so they can have a body style and price point to attract a wide variety of consumers.

The competition from other brands isn't even a problem for them right now, the 210 hp Equniox RS EV FWD is the same price as an AWD Long Range Model Y for example, that's DOA for the Equinox.  The BZ4X/Soltera are not competition with their 200 mile range, the Mach-E isn't selling and is having its production cut, EV6 sales are down 15% this year.  And legacy OEM's are losing money on EV's and scale won't save them, that is why they are all cutting back, they have to stop the losses.