balthazar

You canNOT judge aerodynamics visually. I don't see the T/A as being anything close to a "brick wall", either. Gale Banks, the turbo aftermarket tuner, ran one on Bonne too (same car as referenced above) ?

Jeez, why do we always get the dumbed-down designs ???

>>"balthazar, you amaze me."<< Thank you, sir. :wink: Seriously, under a more pedestrian nameplate... and a great many people would just shrug at it. Although I do think it invalid to consider price in the opinion, I cannot help it when said tag gets extreme. For the tag, a car of this supposed caliber should be unique, fresh, different. It isn't. It's nice, it's sleek, but it's just not that different from a great many other modern designs. Fiat knows this, and the sheer grotesque size of the name on the rear proves it. Like I said- I see these masers occasionally- they do NOT stand out in a sea of injection-molded plastic cars. I'm not joking; lower a LaCrosse and put it on more aggressive rims/tires and you get the same impact. >>"Now, the Lamborghini Estoque on the other hand..."<< I'd have to see one in person, but from pics, YJ is right on. This car smacks you in the face from a distance- you KNOW it's NOTHING in least bit ordinary. And it looks frickin' fast. Needs a bit of line refinement, but very interesting... Scroll back & forth from this to YJ's black maserati sedan above to see the fatness & dumpiness clearly.

For a short while, Chevy really nailed the rear cove design. Simple yet so effective- that silver insert in the rear really popped the back of a clean design. The SS concept of a few years ago brought me fresh hope that treatment would return, that car's ass was excellent.... but to no avail.

>>"Do you like the Gran Turismo? "<< What's that- the 2-dr sedan? The same comments largely apply to the 2-dr also. >>"it's classical, elegant, and uninterrupted in form. "<< It's clean, but unremarkable and generic. It's form is no more 'uninterrupted' than the LaCrosse's. For this class of car, it should be unique and non-derivative. I yearn for truely inspired & distinctive design in the '00s... still waiting.

This is why the MEDIA sucks so F'ing hard. Why? Because the 'scandalous' story on the auto CEOs flying to DC made the rounds like chain lightning, toting the banner 'wasting taxpayer money' when it was relative couch cushion change compared to this. Yet there's narry the peep out of the media on this, no snide commentary, no besmirching editorializing, no shame-laden slants. ONE AP-piece that will fade by tomorrow... no overtones, no personal attacks on the banking industry or their CEOs. Yesteryear's media would never allow such a one-sided handling of the facts due to professionalism. Today its nothing more than 'entertainment value', not real investigative reporting.

I see these from time-to-time, there's a ferrari/maserati dealer 10 minutes from me. Car was moderately dated when new, is long overdue for a reskin. Lose the Buick VentiPorts, too. From the rear (besides sharing taillight design with the kia rios), the car is totally generic with the exception of a chrome script across the decklid so large it's only proportionally correct on a motorhome - purposely large enough so you might know it's 'something special'. The front is yet another descent into the generic except for a single feature- the low ovaloid grille, which is nice. Everything else could have come off of 22 other cars- not the sort of thing one expects when dropping this much coin. Quite underwhelming, IMO.

The current fastest production-based car in a production class @ Bonneville (not positive how old the info is) is an '89 Turbo Trans Am, which has averaged 297 MPH in the flying mile & hit 303 MPH. There have been numerous top speed builds based around the 3rd gen T/A, as when this car came out in '82 it achieved a .cd of .29. According to sources that have run them, the T/A has better aerodynamic stability in 'multi-dimensional axis's (it was extensively tuned in GM's wind tunnel) , as opposed to the 'exotics' from ferrari, lambo, etc., which have proven to be relatively less than stellar in top speed runs.

>>"1973 is 35 years ago, a lifetime for many buyers [those under 40]. Stop with the 'good old days' thinking."<< I only presented it as a matter of fact & curiosity, not to suggest a full line up. I believe I'm farther back in this thread supporting a 1 model/3 variant Pontiac lineup. >>"Buick is #1 in China, and brings in the $$. So it stays."<< Maybe you have an opinion on this : do you think there'd be any effect on Buick China if Buick USA was discontinued ?? The 2 have nothing to do with each other. >>"Too many assume this saved car is the G8 while they sit on dealer lots unsold at very cheap prices."<< EVERYTHING is 'sitting on dealer lots' right not; industry is down roughly 33%, GM 41% in Nov, nissan 44% in Nov.

>>"1978 896,980 (Pontiac's best year ever)"<< PMD records : 1978 : 900,380 1973 : 919,872 1968 : 910,977 For what it's worth, 1973's model line breakout ~ Ventura II : 96,500 LeMans / LeMans Sport / Luxury LeMans : 200,843 Grand Am : 43,293 GTO : 4,806 Catalina : 237,065 Bonneville : 46,898 Grand Ville : 90,172 Grand Prix : 153,899 Firebird : 46,313 commercial chassis : 240

Yea- not from the U.S. ... but who knew it was supposed to be a 'performance' enhancement, as the only vehicle you ever see 'TuRD' stickers on is the ohsnap! tacoma. Maybe it's focused differently in AU.

>>"SCENARIO I... SCENARIO II... Pretty different, huh? Nothing earth-shattering about a court ruling that a lawsuit may proceed."<< The situations are not different from the POV of the Good Samaritan ('GS'), and it is the GS's actions that are prompting any legal action whatsoever. Two 45-MPH impacts, both leaking fuel, both with the potential to burn/explode. Two incapacitated drivers, unable to exit the vehicle. This is the exact point the GS must decide to act or not, and at that point, both scenario's are identical. Standing by and watching a person burn to death merely because of fear of a lawsuit is reprehensible, IMO. Intent is always a key component in legal cases. It's a pretty far stretch to suggest a innocent bystander approaching a burning vehicle intended to harm the occupant, which is why a GS allowance exists. Also, this CA ruling only notches up an already hideously over-litigious society.

I enjoy swimming when I do it, but I don't get a chance often. I guess I would say hiking thru the woods/mountains... but even better is hiking/climbing thru a vintage junkyard. Think of that '65 Bel Air wagon as a 5' tall boulder...

Right: the 403 in a Can Am was std for CA for smog reasons- rest of the country got the superior 400. Sharp cars, and yet another performance feather in Pontiac's '70s headress. :wink:

I've never belonged to a gym- too cheap/no time. I have a 'machine' in the basement - I used it regularly for the first 3 or 4 months, but I've been snubbing it for months now. I too once had a summer job stacking hay in a 2-story barn. I lost 8 lbs in 1 week doing that job, and I was a skinny kid back then. I do cut, split & stack firewood all year, whenever a stack is low or I find a pile at roadside for county pick-up. Now I'm a home renovation contractor- constantly in motion (except when I'm wasting time sitting where I am right now). After I come home from work & I eat dinner, I'm usually back busy at something until circa 9pm, and I often work 1 day a weekend, too. Last night I was plowing snow in Princeton, plus I did a little shoveling, too. Will be doing more in the wee hours tomm. Building a workshop in the basement right now, I have 5 steel shelving units set up as I process the flotsum & jetsum from cleaining out a factory machinist's garage, and an electrician's garage. Lots of tools & hardware- more than enough to last me a lifetime & plenty to sell. I hate sitting still- I get bored.

If that's true, I'm severely disappointed. There's tons of sh!t buried in GM archives, MightyMouse sent me a few photocopies of vehicles I have never seen before. An inclusive listing is elementary- yet another book on GM design shouldn't even be considered without such a list. Temple's book GM's Motorama had some excellent new pics & revelations, but there, still a list was lacking.

Not a huge fan of the '61 & up Lincs- too bland in profile, tho the grille texture is wonderful. Both GM & ChryCo hiccuped in '61-62 IMO, tho the Impy was in the '57 vein body-wise, I've never been sure what happened in the Cadillac studio, where the graceful smoothness of the '60 disappeared to. '61-62 Cadillacs have a plethora of creases and the front end is relatively 'mid-priced' in design. They're not bad designs, just not up to period Cadillac standards. What's not to love about the over-the-top Impy: free-standing headlights, huge shark fins w/ gunsight taillights, push-button trans & a square steering wheel. Fantastic. I would have to rank them purposely: 1. Imperial 3. Cadillac 7. Lincoln

556 HP V-8 vs. 375 HP V-8. 304 HP V-6 vs. 290 HP V-6. You can get 18" wheels w/ the CTS V-6 FE2 suspension (along with performance cooling, adaptive Xenons & an LSD). Need to get the V-8 to get 18"ers on the hyundai. V-6 genesus comes with plood, pletal and 290 HP. V-6 CTS 0-60: 6.5, V-8 hyundai 0-60: 6.0, V-8 CTS 0-60: 3.9. hyundai 60-0 : 124', CTS : 60-0: 109' (550 must suck). V-6 CTS pulls .85 on skidpad, CTS-V pulls .96, genesis pulls .83 LATimes has already printed: "Doubling down on its own perverse anonymity, the Genesis' styling is hyper-generic -- a ransom-note collage of cues from BMW, Mercedes and Lexus." Stirring. Too big & heavy to compete in the 3-series price bracket. hyundai offers nothing new and nothing distinctive here. Oh, and if the hyundai was as good as the Cadillac, why isn't it priced as high ????????????????????????????

New Jersey Manufacturer's Ins. My '04 Silverado has $100K/ $100K/ $250K coverage and costs me $732/yr before the dividend. If I take the same % out of the check that my truck is of the 3 vehicles insured, that's be $610/yr including the dividend.

Who needs a new roof ? As a self-employee contractor, I have not advertised looking for work for the last 2+ years & I work 5-6 days a week. I don't have job signs or a lettered truck, either. Quality work does my advertising for me.

I don't think he neccessarily knocked $125/tire off because he liked your unibrow. You paid $225/tire after your discounts, TireRack lists them for $204. If $225 included the mount/balance, you might have come out ahead.

'car Cadillac wishes it had' Just wasted the last 1/2 hr comparing the hyundai with the CTS. Specs, features, dimensions, performance, impressions. Plenty of tech & features with class-leading handling & 3 suspension tunings w/ the CTS. V-6 hyundai MSRPs @ $32.2K, V'6 CTS at $35.9 <-- that's the same price range. Interior dimensions are comparable. CTS is smaller, lighter and quicker w/ equal mileage and has more hi-tech & impressive features. Styling & features in & out are easily arguable as better in the CTS (unless plood is something you value). V-6 CTS is only .6 sec slower to 60 than the V-8 hyundai... (which is 2.0 sec slower than the CTS-V, which brakes in 15 less feet than the hyundai). I know you guys are only going to compare V-6s to V-6s and V-8s to V-8s, right ?? How is it again that the genesus trumps the CTS ?? Please tell me it's not the hyundai claim that the genesus is "the size of the 7-series, the performance of the 5-series and the price of the 3-series" because we all recall how raked over the coals Cadillac was for not hitting the 3-series in BOTH price & size exactly, thusly being relegated to "uncompetitive"... Imagine, instead of a '5-series size @ the 3-series price', you have a '7-series size @ the 3-series price' !! Rut-roh!! IMO, the CTS is the sedan hyundai wishes it had built.

>>"The Genesis is the car Cadillac wishes it had."<< More assumptive bull&#036;h&#33;.

>>"I'm afraid a Buick won't be a hardtop with tailfins and be 225 inches long again. "<< Yet another assumption, yet again incorrect. I never saw the reasoning behind pigeonholeing people based on casual associations. Have I ever advocated a 'hardtop or else' POV RE a future Buick? Ever once read anything from me suggesting something from 1959 return in the next Buick? No. And what Buick's future flagship may be is not neccessarily what it should be, wouldn't you agree? Not the same thing in many cases. Let's focus on one question at a time. Should Buick build a flagship 4-dr sedan in a hartop bodystyle? I think they should, yes- it'd be unique at the price level and a clear marketing point. Do I think Buick 'shouldn't bother' if it's not a hdtp? No, clearly they still need a competitive&thensome sedan to get ahead in the segment and at least give pause to those who've long ago written Buick off without inspecting their vehicles and making stereotypical assumptions. But as many here have advocated (and I tend to agree in Buick's case), Buick must move ahead of the competition as they did with the Enclave, but moreso with a sedan since GM is generally not recognized as one of the class leaders in sedans as opposed to SUVs. Buick needs to embrace a Buick-esque design language, not cribbed bits from other current cars as w/ the genesus, and the detail & features need to be head of the class. We can dicker over specifics all night, they are largely a given, but the car basically needs to have Buick in it's most elemental stamped all over it and have at least a few features that are unique & aspirational. Buick has a long history of forced induction & V-6s, that might be an excellent starting point toward a powertrain. But dreaming up variants of the modern cars are not my first interest.

And I posted excerpts from C&D from '82, and they loved the car.